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Author Topic: The truth about Halberdiers  (Read 21982 times)

Offline Valegorn

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The truth about Halberdiers
« on: October 15, 2010, 10:24:23 PM »
Hi Everybody;

So I wanted to find some empire tactica and I came across this site. Pretty cool forum (thanks to whomever started/runs it). I started to read some of the posts and there seems to be this animosity toward Halberdiers. Noticing the last post about this topic was right around when 8th edition came out, its quite possible Halberdiers have been fixed with the new rules. If so, I apologize, please disregard my comments and direct me to the latest thread link.

I'm a budding math-hammer kinda guy. You can bet most game designers are as well especially those who work for GW. So I crunched some numbers and here is what I found. I took an average unit of 20 State Troopers and see how they did statistically.

For all of the examples below, lets assume we are fighting another Empire unit, or an Empire equivalent. I didn't take into account Initiative because no matter where you fall on in striking order, you're going to have at least one or two rounds of fighting at your maximum attacks (unless you get charged by some death star and they wipe you out before you get a chance to strike back, in that case it won't matter anyways)

Enemy Stats:
WS   T   Sv
  3    3   5+

Now since this is an example of killyness, I wont worry about our unit of Empire State Troopers being hit back, we all know how that can go. So we're going to look at each one; Spearmen, Swordsmen, and Halberdiers.

Also, the unit size it 20 models, 5x4

Spearmen

On the Charge
# of Attacks:11
To Hit:4's
To Wound:4's
Armor Sv:5+ (S3 doesn't modify the Sv)
Average Unsaved Wounds: 1.83

Was Charged/Continued Combat
# of Attacks:16
To Hit:4's
To Wound:4's
Armor Sv:5+ (S3 doesn't modify the Sv)
Average Unsaved Wounds: 2.67

As you can tell here, Spearmen perform better as a defensive unit (which is common knowledge)


Swordsmen

On the Charge/Was Charged
# of Attacks:11
To Hit:3's
To Wound:4's
Armor Sv:5+ (S3 doesn't modify the Sv)
Average Unsaved Wounds: 2.44

Now Swordsmen have a shield which gives them a little more survivability, but if it ever had to face something with a WS of 4 - 8, you're going to hit on a 4 (like their spear & halberdier brothers) which negates having a better WS. Now since most of the stuff out there has a WS of 4, all you're Troopers are more then likely going to be hitting on 4's anyways. So the +1 to WS that the Swordsmen is nice, but only when facing units with WS 3 and below. So to give you an idea of if our Swordsman unit faced something with a WS of 4-8, but changing nothing else (ie T and Sv) here's what it would look like.

But what about the +1 to I?
Generally speaking, it is better to go first (or at the same time)


On the Charge/Was Charged
# of Attacks:11
To Hit:4's
To Wound:4's
Armor Sv:5+ (S3 doesn't modify the Sv)
Average Unsaved Wounds: 1.83

(So they perform just as well as charging Spearmen)


Halberdiers

On the Charge/Was Charged
# of Attacks:11
To Hit:4's
To Wound:3's (because of the +1 S from the Halberdier)
Armor Sv:6+ (S4 modifies the Sv by -1)
Average Unsaved Wounds: 3.06

So its pretty obvious that Halberdiers are hardest hitting core unit. Even if we put a unit of Halberdiers up against a unit with a higher WS, they'd still preform the same. There is a lot to be said about +1 S over +1 I & +1 WS +1 SV. Pound for pound, a unit of Halberdiers will kill a unit much faster then a unit of Spearmen or Swordsmen.


Survivability
I've read the arguments about Halberdiers, the best one I can find is giving the Halberdiers the option of upgrading to Heavy Armor. This would be a very nice upgrade as it would increase the survivability of our Halberdiers. But if you gave them Heavy Armor, then they would be more of an elite infantry than a core unit.

When looking at the correlation between Spearmen, Swordsmen, and Halberdiers, they each play a different role;
Spearmen = Defensive
Halberdiers = Offensive
Swordsmen = Little bit of both

Each unit roughly costs the same (5-6 ppm), this is because they're core units. When looking at this through in a game designers eyes, there is only so many roles you can make a core unit fulfill. You can tell they tried to give us options with the three units above. So the reality of the fact is, it all comes down to how you play (and the Empire Army can be played a lot of ways)

So if you're looking for survivability, then a Spearmen or Swordsmen are probably a better choice. If you want raw killy, go with Halberdiers.


Conclusion
Depending on how you play the Empire Army will really tell you what core choices are better. If you play defensively then Halberdiers may not be the choice for you. If you play aggressively then Spearmen probably arnt going to do it for you. Its funny because you can even play aggressively with a defensive army and vice-versa. There are multiple ways of killing the enemy with the Empire. This is quite possibly their greatest strength and their greatest weakness. There really is no single way to play them (unlike WoC or HE).

So I'm fairly certain that Halberdiers are pretty good where they're at. They fulfill a role within the bounds of a unit type. It is quite easy to do poorly with them when not used appropriately. So to call them the weaker of the core units is a mistaken philosophy when you look at the bigger picture.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post.

~Valegorn

Offline Valegorn

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2010, 02:05:25 AM »
As far as i can tell, these statistics hold true for 7th edition as well, in that Halberdiers caused more wounds then any of the other state troopers.

Offline red bull

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2010, 07:16:38 PM »
Thanks for the figures.

It is very helpful. I think you would quite like the new Empire book we're designing.

BTW, welcome to the forum.
No matter how good a general you are; if the dice are against you, you will not win.

My new stories http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=36076.0
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Offline GambitGriffin

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2010, 12:58:43 PM »
As far as i can tell, these statistics hold true for 7th edition as well, in that Halberdiers caused more wounds then any of the other state troopers.

Yes but the problem with the halberds was that they died before they had a chance to attack. Now in 8th they still die a lot but at least they can attack back now :happy:

Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2010, 12:38:49 AM »
Never understood all the negativeness of the Halberdiers...they are even better now in 8th edition! Give them the banner the makes them Stubborn and add a Warrior priest and they HELLA ROCK!!! (cheaper than Great swords) Halberdiers will always be my first choice for core troops in hand to hand combat! I usually field a parent unit of 28 halberdiers 7 wide 4 deep and add 2x detachments of 12 Halberdiers!!! Add Warrior Priest and Razor banner Extra Killy!!!!

Offline Valegorn

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2010, 03:24:42 AM »
Thank you guys for your replys.  :smile2:

Offline red bull

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2010, 07:54:16 PM »
I'm going to have a unit of 40 in my army when it is done.

They will  kick ass in a horde, dishing out 30 S4 attacks. And that unit is lead by a WP.
No matter how good a general you are; if the dice are against you, you will not win.

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Offline nazgul12

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2010, 03:08:08 AM »
50 halberdiers with a WP is a very cost effective unit in 8th edition now.  Honestly, I think 8th edition fixed halberds.  Swordsmen are still useful too now.  The only unit that I think isn't worth taking is spearmen, as the extra rank of attacks is more redundant than ever now and is a much smaller relative advantage then before.  At least before it might guarantee a few attacks when charged where other units would have no one left.  Now that's not an issue with 8th edition rules.  Also, in a horde unit having 40 WS3 S3 attacks isn't really all that impressive when compared with 30 WS3 S4 or 30 WS4 S3 but I4 attacks.  So ya, halberds are fixed, swordsmen are still good, and I think spearmen are the new loser of empire core infantry.  Although to my mind they always were as I used to use swordsmen for main blocks and halberds for detachments.  Spears never really have had a place in my armies....
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 03:16:13 AM by nazgul12 »

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2010, 05:09:30 PM »
What about if the redundancy of the spears was extended , instead of fighting in 2 ranks they fought in 3 or possibly made into pikes to fight in 4 ranks?  Do you think that would fix them?
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline red bull

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2010, 04:38:01 PM »
Only if you made then cost 6 points, with a requires two hands special rule.
No matter how good a general you are; if the dice are against you, you will not win.

My new stories http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=36076.0
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Offline Valegorn

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2010, 09:42:42 PM »
What about if the redundancy of the spears was extended , instead of fighting in 2 ranks they fought in 3 or possibly made into pikes to fight in 4 ranks?  Do you think that would fix them?
This is a good idea, but I think it might throw off what the Empire Core section of the army is. I think this would turn spearmen into a more elite unit then a core unit.

They should just add a unit like this to the Special section, Call then "Pikemen"(or whatever). Allow them to have an extra rank to fight from (on top of the usual one they'd get for having spears, kinda like High Elf spearmen). Maybe give them heavy armor with an possible upgrade for a shield, then top them off with the same stats as the Greatswords ("Stubborn & "State Troops" special rules). This might be a bit too powerful. Maybe allow them to choose between the shield or an getting an extra rank to fight from. Or they lose both the extra ranks of attacks when they charge.

This unit would actually fit well into the Empire fluff and the army. It doesn't throw game balance off (as far as I can tell, feel free to correct me) & its a great opposite to the Greatswords (which are an offensive unit).

Just an idea  :smile2:
~Valegorn

Offline Valegorn

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2010, 01:20:34 AM »
I will admit, I don't take spearmen all that often. I find my play style centers around halberdiers, but if I was going to take spearmen I'd give them a shield. This plays up their battlefield role which is a defensive unit. Their save goes from a 6+ to a 5+, with a 6+ ward save. All and all, it increases their survivability. This is good because it makes them less likely to die and gives them just as much survivability as swordsmen.

When used correctly Spearmen are actually better then Swordsmen. I will post a new thread discussing my thoughts on this.

Offline nazgul12

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2010, 03:53:39 AM »
It's my understanding that shield +spear does not give a 6+ ward save, only the old "sword and board" will do.  As a result, swordsmens' WS 4 and I4 combined with the extra ward save spearmen don't get, make them superior to spearmen in pretty much every conceivable situation right now.  I really feel like spears should just be replaced by pikes.  From the standpoint of the Empire being somewhat representative of the Holy Roman Empire, this would make sense as pikes were far more in use than smaller spears in the representative timelines.  Also, I feel like in black library books I've seen more pikemen than spearmen in Empire armies, so it wouldn't even require much retconning.  The question then if they replaced spears with pikes is what should the rules for pikes be?  I disagree with the notion of making them near-equivalents of greatswords.  I like how greatswords are our elite infantry and I don't think we need another such unit.  Also, I feel like in Black Library novels where pikemen were mentioned they were pretty standard troops and in no way elite.

So my thinking would be for pikes to give +2 ranks, require two hands, and +1S when fighting cavalry, monstrous infantry, and anything larger...  The infantry would be equipped with light armor and pikes, and have normal human stats.  I think this would balance relatively well in comparison to the current infantry and they could be comfortably priced at 6 pts/model.  They would be less survivable than swordsmen but have killing power about equal to halberdies; they would be slightly more expensive than halberdiers because against things like cavalry, ogres, minotaurs, chariots, etc. they would be clearly better.  For this reason they would be a point more expensive.  That's my thoughts anyways.  It will be interesting to see if anyone agrees  :biggriin:

Offline Valegorn

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2010, 06:57:15 AM »
Yeah, I missed that part about the perry save. I got used to having it when I used my swordsmen, so my bad, I take that one back.

I do agree with the pikemen, I just think they should be in the special section because then they can really beef them up and get them on par with Greatswords. But they could also work as a core unit. They would have to be just plain old troopers with a pike and light armor.

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2010, 03:36:29 PM »
lets see in the old version of WFB pikes fought in 4 ranks and had a bonus to fighting against Cavalry IIRC.  In the WAB profiles pikes fought in 2 ranks but had the ASF rule (due to their length) and a bonus to In and a couple other bonuses. Cavalry absolutely would not charge the front of a pike unit and infantry fought at -1 to their weapon skills.  Both versions of pike lost their rule effectiveness at less than 16 models at which point they reverted to the regular spear rules.

in the old set of rules the cost of a pike in both systems was 3 points per model and spears were 2 points and 1 point respectively.  So costing a pike at one or two additional extra points above the cost of our current spearman profile is in order.   

I think a blend of these two effects would be in order.  The Warhammer ancients version of pikes comes closer to the real power of the pike in formation.
Call the rule set "Empire Pike Phalanx"
My preference would be for 3 ranks fighting, ASF, +1S vs cav and monsters, -1Ws applied against all models fighting the front of a unit, cavalry and monsters must take a terror test if they wish to charge the front of a pike unit, flanks and rear do not generate this test.
a unit of pikemen must number at all times 16 or more models in order to benefit from these rules, pike units fewer than 16 models are treated as regular spears.  (so it's a good idea to start the game with 2 extra ranks of pike in a unit)

seperate from the weapon in the profile I would give players the choice of light (already equipped in the profile) or heavy armour to equip their pikes with for an additional +1 point, pikes would never use shields in close combat.  Or the pikes could even do away with the armour they have at -1 point if players wish to play dangerously.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline nazgul12

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2010, 02:33:26 AM »
By 3 ranks, do you mean +3 ranks?  So if men were 5 wide they'd fight 5 ranks deep now in 8th edition, and if 10 wide they'd fight in 6 deep?  That would be pretty awesome with units of 60+.  I thought I was being generous with +2 ranks!  The other rules are also extremely good.  I'm almost worried it'd be too good in fact.  Would have to be fairly pricey to balance I suspect.

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2010, 06:17:17 PM »
no by three ranks fighting I mean just that, 3 ranks fight, and only that. 3 ranks count their attacks in a Melee phase so a unit of 25 pikes, 5x5, would count 15 attacks and if fighting against a lower initiative opponent could re-roll any misses(asf).  Rank bonuses still work the same which would count in the first 4 ranks of a unit 1+3 equals a +3 rank bonus, as usual.

Even if you had 16 ranks deep in a unit this wouldn't change except that maybe you'd have more files wide than your opponent, 49 man unit, 7X7 would still fight in 3 ranks= 21 attacks.   The advantage to having more ranks is that you have a longer attrition time before losing the phalanx rule and a longer time before losing rank bonus, horde, steadfast, and raw numbers of attacks available.  = a more durable unit than FREX 21 men set up 3x7 which would be only +2 rank bonus and a mere 6 men to lose before those pikes turn into regular spears.

Somewhere you misunderstood my rules.

I've weakened the WAB version of the rule against charging horses into the front of a pike unit my reducing it to terror, this way coldone riders, undead and chaos can still charge but that they suffer a penalty doing so.  Living units are far more sensible than they and will probably try to hit a flank to begin with. 

Most units of pike will lose their phalanx rules after 2 rounds of melee, due to attrition, especially in the new rules with losses from the rear of a unit so the special rules shouldn't be that expensive.
   
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline nazgul12

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2010, 03:36:09 AM »
Hmm, so in other words they would have the fight in extra rank rule the same as spearmen, but then with the other bonuses you mentioned.  That wouldn't be nearly so powerful as I was imagining, and so yes I agree they could be similarly priced to other infantry units, though obviously a bit more than our current spearmen.  Maybe 8 points ish?  Be a very solid infantry unit, but ya, not broken.

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2010, 03:49:09 AM »
yup I was thinking 1 extra point for the pike rule and an extra point for heavy armour instead of light, -1 point to go without armour at all and no shields available for pike armed units.  So if you were really stingy you could trade light armour for an extra 6 feet of wood, at the same raw cost as spearmen, and marginally less durable.  That 17% save has never really impressed me you can guess which of two ways I'd go.   

"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline red bull

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2010, 08:37:45 PM »
Erm, you don't get a 6+ ward save in closecombat for a spear and a shield. Only is a hand weapon and a shield are used.
No matter how good a general you are; if the dice are against you, you will not win.

My new stories http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=36076.0
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=36981.0

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2010, 02:11:13 AM »
No of course not you'd get a 6+ save for LA  5+for HA, and at least in my version of pikes or spears shields would not be permitted, for a trade of light armour for the pike rules you could have no armour save troopers and the above pike phalanx rules.  After all the rules are only applicable in units that maintain their unit strength above 16 models, not exactly something an unarmoured unit* is capable of doing with 8th edition combat resolution rules.  What did you think I was getting at? 


*Heck even a heavy armoured unit isn't very durable with the preponderance of S5+ attacks out there that completely nullify their armour.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline csjarrat

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2010, 04:51:26 PM »
to further reinforce the pikewall lessons that history has taught us, any unit of cavalry (or equivalent mass) that charges the front of a unit armed with pikes generates a number of impact hits against themselves equal to the number of models charging, resolved at the charging model's base strength.

pikes were dug into the ground so charging into them is like charging into a sharp pointy brick wall, i feel the rules should at least reinforce that
Compared to the state troops they are a gentle handjob on a friday evening - jaggedjimmyj in ref to knights

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2010, 10:27:46 PM »
to further reinforce the pikewall lessons that history has taught us, any unit of cavalry (or equivalent mass) that charges the front of a unit armed with pikes generates a number of impact hits against themselves equal to the number of models charging, resolved at the charging model's base strength.

pikes were dug into the ground so charging into them is like charging into a sharp pointy brick wall, i feel the rules should at least reinforce that
Good idea actually.  Although I might make it so that generally they have to do the Leadership test then take the impact hits before the cavalry or monsters are allowed to strike in the charge to the front of a pike unit. 

Because a unit of pikes rely on their numbers to be an effective unit it may still be worthwhile to charge into the front of a unit of pikes if you are heavily armoured enough.

"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Redstorm Rising

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2011, 08:46:50 PM »
Imho the actual balancing of the Empire State Troops units is fine with a few exceptions.

Handgunners and Crossbowmen are balanced, may be with a small advantage for the crossbows. Bowman are generally ok and have a different task, but they are too expensive. A simple reduction of the points per model would be fine or a cheaper upgrade to infiltration.

Halberdiers, Greatswords and Swordsmen are well balanced. All are often used in battle. Free company and spearmen are behind in 8th edition.

So what to do to upgrade Spearmen and Free Company?

Cause there are a lot of troops using spears in WHFB a change of the weapon itself wont balance the empire troops. Let's be honest...when were spearmen competetive last time? I really cant remember...May be it would be the best choice to upgrade them from spearmen to pikemen. Imho a good choice would be kick off the shield and give them fighting +2 ranks (means 4 ranks fighting) and an extra bonus of S+1 vs. cavalry, monsters, monstrous infantry, monstrous cavalry. Pikemen shouldnt be too strong/cheap. They shouldnt get ASF or heavy armor.

Offline Nickabeta

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Re: The truth about Halberdiers
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2011, 12:48:35 PM »
Some things to think about when adapting the pike to the warhammer world :
The pike evolved in a kind of arms race between human empires. Against chaos warriors, orcs, trolls, ogres etc it is much more important to hit hard. Therefore Halberds are the basic core weapon of the empire. I think whether or not we have the pike is debatable.

If we did; 2 hands +2 rank (spear is +1). On top of this a 1st round bonus eg. ASF or when charged by cavalry in the front  ASF +2 Str (exact opposite of lance). Others have suggested alternate bonuses that could be used instead for round 1. Rank dependent as mentioned by der Hurenwiebel workable too.

Original post was longer but computer error lost it.