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Author Topic: Inspirational Speech  (Read 7900 times)

Offline Rik Riorik

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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2005, 08:51:56 PM »
This here might be a slightly bad interpretation (and willfully applied) of established Empire background but bear with me;

But in the days when Sigmar himself strived to make an Empire when he was king of the Unberogen tribe the Teutogen tribe was the one tribe that resisted this unification of the human tribes the most. This tribe has a definitive stronghold in the Middenland region if my perception holds true, perhaps even in Talabecland. Now it seems only that they are once again trying to halt the unification of the land.

EDIT. Took a little editing to this post myself.
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Offline jmanwarhammer

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« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2005, 09:57:48 PM »
Testy are we Demonslayer?

aghhem *clears throat*

On page 2 of issue 2 at the bottom of the first column of "An Unlikely Heir", it states, and I qoute,
    "... Even in times such as these, Kurt knew that at least the apperance of legitimacy was required. Stirland could not simply march in and take Ostermark, not even to liberate it from the influence of Talabecland. No, an heir must be found to the long-extinct Stienhardt line. Miraculously, an heir was indeed found. and from amongst the distant relations of Graf Martin himself..."

Awefulluy convienant that Graf magically finds himslef a "legitimate" heir to the formor Elector Count, huh? And one who he is related too, wow imagine the luck. Oh, and it was Sigmar no less that slew that particular blood line, I wonder why.
Graf Martin was crowned by the Grand Theoginist of a god who has almost completely abandoned his worshippers for what they have done. And all through out this Middenland has mearly protested, obviously to keep the peace. In addition Graf Martin is rather resented by the Ostermark populace because of his dis-tasteful and reckless use of their last standing force, in which he simply used them as a force that would die to the man in order to soften the undead lines a little, what a great genral.
Martin's so called political means of ending this conflict have still not stopped him from commiting troops to the fight, and indeed coming to blows with their fellow citizens the Talabeclanders. And no where in the newsletter do I see it saying anyhting about Middenland's supposed desire to the innocent lass, no I'm sure Graf will manage that quite nicely once he has no more use for her. I would also like to point out that Middenland did not deign to enter the fray untill after the opposing factions had aggresivly advanced on Bechafen, at that point we believed it was time to stop the madness.
Read the qoute on page 3 of issue 4, it says "Middenland has become united and prosperous at a time when most provinces are wracked with rebellion and lawlessness", we only wish to include the chaotic Ostermark in that shield of order and success, is that so wrong?

On the religous note, no Middenlander would ever consider a Talabeclander one of his own, we have ALWAYS co-existed on this front, we have always had and desired peace with the Sigmarites. And yes, it makes sense that Sigmar would stop worshipping Ulric upon his accention to deity-hood, but it also makes sense to say that Sigmar would retain his relationship with the winter god, albeit though at a more equal playing filed.

Poking fun at each other is part of the game, it's all done in good spirits.
 I do not question your intellegence, after all, it is rather difficult to get a straight answer out of dirt  :-D .

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Offline wissenlander

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« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2005, 10:56:22 PM »
Well, the blood line link may not be so improbable.  If the Empire is anything like Europe, then royal families from different states are intertwined and related somehow.  

And there is some debate on the usage of the Ostermarkers during Hel Fenn.  I believe the last newsletter denoted one of the Ostermarkers telling a taleof how it was the zealous nature of the Ostermark halberdiers charging in, before they could recieve support from Reikland troops, that caused the blood bath.
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Offline HoS

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« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2005, 02:04:18 AM »
You know what this arguement has made me think of? That line in M*A*S*H where that beurocrat(sp) is talking about the "Red Menace" and Hawkeye shoots back: "I know all about the Red Menace! It keeps coming out of those boys you keep sending us!". All this argueing and such is only going to lead to war(albiet a fake one) and many more will meet the "Red Menace".

Just my two worthless cents :?
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Offline Demonslayer

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« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2005, 09:56:01 AM »
@ jmanwarhammer (damn I've been typing that a lot these last few days  :wink: ): Thank you for just about proving my point.
In schematics: Stirland finds a heir for the throne of Ostermark --> Talabecland doesn't like it and invades --> Stirland fights back --> Middenland decides to participate in the war. How the hell is it their business that Stirland and Talabecland are fighting over Ostermark? They're not allies of any of the three states! Nobody even bothered them! They just want Ostermark for themselves, so that their Ulric-religion remains the strongest, even it it means further dividing the Empire. Please don't give me anything about Middenland being such a good and strong country merely wanting to protect the weak from the bad Stirland and Talabecland. I'm not even starting about the fact that Middenland admires strength, and resents weakness, so it wouldn't be logic for them to help the weak.
And about Graf Martin, please stop trying to prove me wrong by saying Graf Martin is an idiot, I fully agree with you. None of my arguments are even remotely based on whether Graf Martin is good or bad. In fact as soon as the war is over and the Empire is united, I'll probably post a suggestion if we can't continue the campaign just to overthrow his rule and install someone who IS a capable leader. And about his purpose for the Gräfin, I don't know what he will do to her when he no longer needs her, he might kill her, he might not.
However, the Ar-Ulric clearly states that he wants to either sell or kill the Gräfin, and since he pretty much rules Middenland, that's Middenlands intention. At this point, the Gräfin needs protection from Middenland and Talabecland. Stirland provides it. If Martin would suddenly threathen her just to become more powerful, it 'll be a very good excuse for the rest of Stirland and Ostermark to take up arms against him. But so far he isn't trying to do so, so we let him be. We'll take care of the problem when it presents itself, and right now the problem is the war with Talabecland and the interference of Middenland.
And if you quote something to prove your point, make sure it doesn't prove the point of the other participant of a discussion. Your quote actually states that Stirland wasn't going to invade Ostermark. What they did do might be an underhand trick, but still perfectly legal, plus no blood is shed. It's better than having the Empire divided, and it's certainly better than a civil war.

As for the personal remark: I don't know where you learned to participate in discussions, but from what I've learned it does not include personal remarks. Even if intended as a joke, it just doesn't have anything to do with the actual discussion. I regard any such remarks only as a lame attempt to hide that you haven't got any real arguments.
It is not the (rather pathetic) insult (or joke, as you will) that has me worried. You're almost on the other side of the planet, why the hell would I care what you think of me? It is the fact that you post such remarks in a discussion (which really isn't the place for it) that bothers me.

But aside from that I'm enjoying this discussion. Please, continue.
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Offline jmanwarhammer

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« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2005, 02:43:29 PM »
As am I, it's rather refreshing to spar back and forth is it not.

I don't see how my quote proved your point maybe it's a Netherland thing  :wink: . The quote was to remind people that the Stirland cause is false (maybe I should have highlighted the part that said "the apperance of legitimacy was required") why would Stirland commit hundreds of troops in order to put a little girl on the thrown?

I'll tell you why Middenland got involved, we can't very well have Talabecland running around killing Sigmarites and forcing others into their twisted version of Ulricinism, by having them annexing Ostermark they are put in a position to control all of the Empire, heres an anology to illustrate my point- Nazi is to Talabecland as Allies is to Middenland/Kislev. And obviously no one wants a 12 year old in control of a province that may well hold the salvation of the Empire.

The only time Ulric had religous dominance in the Empire was the time before Sigmar and we have gotten along just fine with our current level of power. I'm sure the quote thing is getting old but heres another from issue 1 page 2:
    "... the system was corrupt (it was- the Grand Theoginist basically chose the Emperor himself, with the election a mere formality.)"

In regard to Graf Martin, the previos posts were simply to point out that the Grand Theoginist (the driving force of the Stirland- as Kernschatten put it ) would see a malodroit fool placed on the thrown of the Empire, and even Demonslayer agrees that he is an idiot.

If you find the good hearted humor offemsive then I'll stop  :roll: .
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Offline Kernschatten

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« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2005, 03:06:30 PM »
Quote from: jmanwarhammer
If you find the good hearted humor offemsive then I'll stop  :roll: .

Smack talk is good for the campaign. And it is only going to get worse in the very near future.  :-D Just stay in that "role-playing" mode.
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Offline jmanwarhammer

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« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2005, 03:15:24 PM »
I would, and beleive me I love too, but Demonslayer doesn't seem to fond of it,
Quote
As for the personal remark: I don't know where you learned to participate in discussions, but from what I've learned it does not include personal remarks. Even if intended as a joke, it just doesn't have anything to do with the actual discussion. I regard any such remarks only as a lame attempt to hide that you haven't got any real arguments.
It is not the (rather pathetic) insult (or joke, as you will) that has me worried. You're almost on the other side of the planet, why the hell would I care what you think of me? It is the fact that you post such remarks in a discussion (which really isn't the place for it) that bothers me.
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Offline HoS

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« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2005, 04:17:04 PM »
Quote from: jmanwarhammer
why would Stirland commit hundreds of troops in order to put a little girl on the thrown?  .


Isn't that what you said last time? I think that everyone but Talabecland should back OFF!!!!! The Talabecland version of Ulricism is just a front to exterminate Ulricism! As you may hve noticed, modern Talabecland is NOT worshipping Ulric, there is a Dark Power( kinda like WEs) in Talabecland that is driving Ulric to extinction!

That is my theory anyways :ph34r:
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Offline Demonslayer

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« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2005, 06:38:54 PM »
I'm not at all troubled with the "good hearted humor", just don't direct it at any forum members. There is a difference between saying "Stirlanders are idiots" or saying "the forum mebers that choose the side of Stirland are stupid" or "one of the forum members doesn't even know the word narcisist (or something, English is still a foreign language to me), so I will explain it to him in all my wisdom" (a rather simplified version of what has been said, I know).

As for your quote, it does state that what the Stirlanders did was underhanded, and it was, no question about it. But it is still a legal move. I'm not saying Stirlands actions were fair. I'm saying that Stirland can unite the Empire without shedding much blood.There would have been an idiot on the throne for a generation (or shorter, if my suggestion to do away with Martin and choose a better Emperor as soon as the Empire has been restored were to be followed), but the Empire would have been whole again.
It was Talabecland that started an invasion of Ostermark, thus starting the bloodshed. Again, Middenland has no business in Ostermark. If they only had problems with Talabecland, then why didn't they take their army into Talabecland? Why kill off the Stirlanders? Why try to conquer Ostermark by force? Take on Talabecland if your problem lies there. In your WW2 metaphor, this would be the allies attacking all of Europe, instead of just the nazi's, to establish their own rule over the world.
I'm not saying Stirland hasn't made any underhand tricks. I'm not saying the electoral system is fair. I'm not saying Graf Martin should be Emperor any longer than absolutely necessary. I'm not saying putting a little girl in charge of Ostermark is wise. I never said such things. I'm saying the Empire should be one great nation again, and both Middenland and Talabecland are preventing it.
The Grand Theogonist isn't trying to put a "malodroit fool" on the throne of the Empire. He just won't be around much longer, but before he dies, he wants to unite the Empire. And if that requires putting a little girl in charge of Ostermark and having Martin for Emperor, that is what needs to be done. It might cause trouble for one or two generations, but it's better than having the Vampires, Chaos, Skaven or any other race take the Empire apart state by state.

As for the remarks, you've missed my point. Make a mockery of Stirland or anything campaign related, I don't care. In fact I want you to, to keep the discussion going. I'll do exactly the same thing when the oppurtunity presents itself. But don't go and tell me you should be explaining words to me. That would equal you saying I'm too dumb to understand what you're saying. It has nothing to do with the campaign, nor does it defend your argument. That's the point I was trying to make.
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Offline jmanwarhammer

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« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2005, 11:01:42 PM »
As for fighting Talabecland and Stirland the argument stands-
    We won't have crazy zealots in killing for no reason and we can't have them in a postion to control the Empire
    As far as Stirland goes the previous argument still stands, a 12 year old should not have control of anything other than her rag dolls
     [/list:u]

    How can Stirland unite the Empire without shedding blood? It's obvious that if anyone should have the claim to Ostermrk it's Talabecland, they have helped Ostermark more than both our provinces combined, but obviously neither of us would want to see that happen. So of course Talabecland is going to get involved and Stirland is definitly not going to just back down, and these 2 will engage in a fruitless war (Talabecland has extremly plentiful as well as fanatical troops), as one faction gains supremecy and controls Ostermark it will not bode well for anyone, Talabecland will kill all the Sigmarites in the Empire (and probably alot of Ulric worshippers too) and will be equivilent to an insane dictator in command of a bunch of nukes. Stirland on the other hand may possibly united the Empire but only by putting a toddler as an Elector and an idiot in charge of the greatest nation in all of the Old World (and possibly the whole World). While this may work for a while, as soon as one of these in-competant rulers kicks the bucket, the Empire will be right back where it started, and possibly worse off.

    Now I would like to point out that Middenland is the obvious choice to restore and Ostermark and thus the Empire. Why you may ask? In an Empire in which anarchy rains supreme, only Middenland has risen above it to beacome succesful and prosperus. Why not put them in charge, only good can come from it, if we can do it to a land as tough as Middenland then the rest of the Empire shuold be a peice of cake.

    Making fun of
each other is in-couraged by the campaignstaff. See the above comment by Kernschatten and several others made by Mods, Admins, and other people. As long as it doesn't get ugly or serious then they support it.

This is a great debate, I'm haven't had so much fun the forums since... I can't remember.  :-D
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Offline Kernschatten

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« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2005, 12:30:08 AM »
Quote from: jmanwarhammer
Making fun of each other is in-couraged by the campaignstaff. See the above comment by Kernschatten and several others made by Mods, Admins, and other people. As long as it doesn't get ugly or serious then they support it.


"Smack talk" is not the same as "Making fun of others".

Things to keep in mind:
1) Written English is not always the best way to convey sarcasm or humor. Especially when the reader is not a native English speaker and has gone out of their way to take the time to learn how to read and write our miserable, debased language.
2) This forum has more moderators than any other forum here.
3) Matters of Honor should be settled on the Field of Combat. Pistols at dawn comes highly recommended.

Now as far as smack talk goes. The campaign staff is officially neutral. We get to bother everyone.  :twisted:
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2005, 09:00:24 AM »
Quote from: jmanwarhammer
In an Empire in which anarchy rains supreme, only Middenland has risen above it to beacome succesful and prosperus.


That's true. But such internal unity has only come about during the reign of Emperor Severin - the Hofhaimer Chronicles record a brutal series of civil wars between the Middenland nobility, culminating in the infamous Zebitz Massacre. That is only the tip of the iceburg. When Severin dies, as he will before too long, who is to say if the new Emperor will be able to control his vassals?

Not to mention the immense resentment that many hard-line Ulricans feel toward Ar-Ulric Waldemar.

Talabecland, by virtue of its extreme authoritarianism, is the only enduringly stable province in this mockery of Sigmar's glorious dream.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2005, 09:02:33 AM »
Quote from: Kernschatten
Especially when the reader is not a native English speaker and has gone out of their way to take the time to learn how to read and write our miserable, debased language.


Hey!

Lay off the English language! It is a thing of endless variety and ambiguity.
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Offline Kernschatten

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« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2005, 05:08:54 PM »
Quote from: rufus sparkfire
Lay off the English language! It is a thing of endless variety and ambiguity.

Oops! I was referring to American English.  :lol:  Take the word 'aluminum' for example....
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Offline jmanwarhammer

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« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2005, 10:38:37 PM »
What about Ebonics...?  :-D
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Offline Demonslayer

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« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2005, 08:41:44 PM »
My point about Stirland uniting the Empire without shedding blood, is that they just find an heir to the throne (who is conveniently part of Martin's bloodline), install her as the Countess of Ostermark, rule Ostermark, and have the most powerful position in the Empire. Middenland and Talabecland would then (hopefully) submit to the rule of a moron, but the Empire would be one again. As soon as the dust settles and a fairer way of voting for a new Emperor is found, find an assassin to take care of Martin and choose a new Emperor, who can then rule a united Empire (just in time for the following Chaos invasion...). That way only one person (Martin) dies (aside from some small, unfortunate peasant uprisings...).
But now Talabecland and Middenland invade Ostermark (granted, Middenland does it with a far better excuse, but it's still invading), starting a war and starting bloodshed. That wasn't Stirlands plan, but, as jamnwarhammer said, they're not going to back off just yet.
Why shouldn't Middenland take control? Because they have no legitimate reason to do so. Just being the most powerful doesn't have to mean you get to rule everything, that's tiranny. Stirland found an heir of Ostermarks throne, who is related to Martin. That's just a legal political move.
I know Middenland is powerful, and should be a very important state in the new Empire. Perhaps it would be an idea for Middenland to join forces with Stirland. Together they can beat the crap out of Talabecland in no time, have the Empire united by Stirland, and form some kind of alliance in which the Emperor is chosen by only the Grand Theogonist and the Ar-Ulric, who have an equal influence in the vote... Just a thought.
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Offline HoS

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« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2005, 03:17:04 AM »
C'mon! Talabecland is not evil!!!!!!!! Why does everyone compare them to Hitlerists(im a native speaker of English! I can make up words if I want!)?!?!?!?
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Offline wissenlander

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« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2005, 04:29:34 AM »
Quote from: Helblaster_Of_Sigmar
Why does everyone compare them to Hitlerists(im a native speaker of English! I can make up words if I want!)?!?!?!?


Well, I suppose it's because of the repressive nature of the Ottilian state that causes people to compare the two.  I would consider it more like the Inquisition, but it's all about perspective.
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Offline HoS

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« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2005, 04:44:22 AM »
Quote from: wissenlander
Quote from: Helblaster_Of_Sigmar
Why does everyone compare them to Hitlerists(im a native speaker of English! I can make up words if I want!)?!?!?!?


Well, I suppose it's because of the repressive nature of the Ottilian state that causes people to compare the two.  I would consider it more like the Inquisition, but it's all about perspective.


*sigh* damn you... i was trying so hard to get myself to bite the bullet and fight for T-land and then you ruin it... oh well, not your fault.(really that much)
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Offline wissenlander

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« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2005, 02:11:39 PM »
Hey, no problem.  It's what I do. :wink:
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Offline HoS

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« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2005, 03:09:13 PM »
Quote from: wissenlander
Hey, no problem.  It's what I do. :wink:


 noticed...lol
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Offline jmanwarhammer

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« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2005, 03:57:02 PM »
Demonslayer... well done.

I like the idea of having Stirland joining up with Middenland, but only if Talabecland manages to put themselves way up front. I also like the idea of killing off Martin after he is installed as Emperor (preferably before, after all no wants to say they conspired to kill the Emperor).

But for the sake of the debate...
First of all, the girl is only a heir according to the Sigmarites. The odds of them suddenly finding a long lost heir to the lost Ostermark Elector is, astronomical. That and it happens to be a conveniant excuse to control Ostermark.

Indeed Middenland should place the Emperor as the head of the Empire, because we are the only province that has been succesful in this time of strife.  An Emperor from Middenland would easily be able to make the rest of the Empire flourish as Middenland has done.
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Offline Demonslayer

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« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2005, 07:54:06 PM »
"Emperor" Martin should only be disposed of when the Empire is a whole again. Any sooner and the trouble will start all over again with each of the four (possibly more) states trying to gain control of the Empire again. Have patience, we'll deal with him when the time is right  :twisted: .
As for the Gräfin, I know it is unlikely that she's both an heir AND related to Martin, but it hasn't been proven that she isn't either. Middenland, Talabecland and Ostermark are free to prove she isn't an heir, but I don't think they had DNA-tests in that time.
And besides, in the long run, isn't it in the best interest of Middenland (and Talabecland) to have her installed? Only when the Empire is united can either of their future generation's Elector Counts be chosen emperor (unless, of course, they want to try and conquer all of the Empire, in which case I wish them luck against the eight other states  :twisted: ). But that's probably beside the point.
Having a girl as an Elector Countess is a bad idea. Uniting the Empire by using a girl as an "Elector Countess" is a good idea. Having Martin as Emperor is a bad idea. Giving the freshly re-united Empire stability by using Martin as "Emperor" is a good idea. Don't think of either of them being installed in a ruling position as Stirlands goals, but as means of the Sigmarite Church.
On the topic of a Middenland Emperor as soon as the Empire has stabilized; as long as he has been elected fairly, I can't see any problem with that... Middenland doesn't try to wipe out Sigmarites, so its Count is welcome as our glorious Emperor (as long as it isn't Severin... another good reason to wait with Martin's assassination  :wink: ).
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Offline wissenlander

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« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2005, 07:55:50 PM »
The young Grafin will make a nice bride one day.  Does no one see that?  Political alliance people!
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finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...