Topic: Another Lance and FBIGO discussion

[commandant]

Great weapon knights are going to do really well in extended fights, more so now that it has been ruled that knights can't use their lances after a fall back in good order

[Minsc]

Great weapon knights are going to do really well in extended fights, more so now that it has been ruled that knights can't use their lances after a fall back in good order

"It has been ruled"? By whom?
With all due respect, this is your (and a handful others) interpretation of the rule based on a fluff-text in a FAQ + the notion that "count as charge" isn't actually a charge for some reason.
This is not cut and dried, and will probably need a FAQ in itself, so let's not pretend it has in any way been officially ruled this way.

Most of us don't play it this way, and personally I've only ever seen people play it that way on these very boards and nowhere else, be it facebook or armyforums - so at the moment every group has to decide for themselves.

Anyway, let's not turn this into another FBIGO-thread. This dead horse has been beaten enough.

[commandant]

No it is not based on the fluff element of the FAQ. It is based on the text of the lance rule and the confirmation in the FAQ that the turn of combat fought  following a Fall back in good order is a subsequent round of the same combat.

The rational is given in another tread.

[Perforated]

No it is not based on the fluff element of the FAQ. It is based on the text of the lance rule and the confirmation in the FAQ that the turn of combat fought  following a Fall back in good order is a subsequent round of the same combat.

The rational is given in another tread.

To be fair, the question is still open and no "ruling" has been made by official sources. While I'm predisposed to not getting the lance bonus after FBIGO I still feel it can still go both ways,

[Dazgrim]

Great weapon knights are going to do really well in extended fights, more so now that it has been ruled that knights can't use their lances after a fall back in good order

Do you have a citation for this?

[commandant]

Great weapon knights are going to do really well in extended fights, more so now that it has been ruled that knights can't use their lances after a fall back in good order

Do you have a citation for this?

FAQ Page 2. There is another tread where the citation is given, along with the reasoning.

[The Peacemaker]

Page 157 is pretty clear that when a unit pursues it counts as charging. FAQ doesn't override that, only an errata can.

Lances rule states they get tgeir bonus when charging. 
 Lances count as charging when pursuing.

What does the FAQ clarify? That a FBIGO counts as the same combat - so it is not the first round. Ok, so things like challenges are still locked in a challenge, and Abilities that trigger in first round are no longer in effect.

Whats the issue?

[Skyros]

No it is not based on the fluff element of the FAQ. It is based on the text of the lance rule and the confirmation in the FAQ that the turn of combat fought  following a Fall back in good order is a subsequent round of the same combat.

You're thinking of flails. The lance rules do not care about another 'round of the same combat' at all. The words don't even appear in the lance rules.

Lances only care if you charged, and FBIGO specifically says that you count as charging, even if you didn't technically make a charge move when you pursue and catch an enemy unit that FBIGO.

[Rodman49]

Yeah it's still up in the air - but about 2/3rds of players are playing that lances can be used in subsequent rounds as long as the unit using lances is charging.

[Athiuen]

Page 157 is pretty clear that when a unit pursues it counts as charging. FAQ doesn't override that, only an errata can.

Lances rule states they get tgeir bonus when charging. 
 Lances count as charging when pursuing.

What does the FAQ clarify? That a FBIGO counts as the same combat - so it is not the first round. Ok, so things like challenges are still locked in a challenge, and Abilities that trigger in first round are no longer in effect.

Whats the issue?

I agree with this. Lances are different from other only used on the first round weapons. Lances activate when charging.

[commandant]

No it is not based on the fluff element of the FAQ. It is based on the text of the lance rule and the confirmation in the FAQ that the turn of combat fought  following a Fall back in good order is a subsequent round of the same combat.

You're thinking of flails. The lance rules do not care about another 'round of the same combat' at all. The words don't even appear in the lance rules.

Lances only care if you charged, and FBIGO specifically says that you count as charging, even if you didn't technically make a charge move when you pursue and catch an enemy unit that FBIGO.

I would ask what "in subsequent turns" means?

[Minsc]

No it is not based on the fluff element of the FAQ. It is based on the text of the lance rule and the confirmation in the FAQ that the turn of combat fought  following a Fall back in good order is a subsequent round of the same combat.

You're thinking of flails. The lance rules do not care about another 'round of the same combat' at all. The words don't even appear in the lance rules.

Lances only care if you charged, and FBIGO specifically says that you count as charging, even if you didn't technically make a charge move when you pursue and catch an enemy unit that FBIGO.

I would ask what "in subsequent turns" means?

It's obviously subsequent turns from the chargers perspective:"A lance can only be used during a turn in which the wielder charged. In subsequent turns (or if the wielder did not charge) the model must use its hand weapon instead."
You're also ignoring the bolded part again, a part which is quite important, because since the wielder *did* charge, it can use it's lance.

[commandant]

There is a big discussion about this in the other tread but it breaks down as the following.

There are two conditions in which the wielder can not use their lance.

1: If it is a subsequent turn
2: if they did not charge.

If either of those conditions are true then the lance can not be used. ( this is the meaning of "or").   

Even if I accept that the wielder did charge it doesn't matter because they still can't use the lance because it is a subsequent turn.   Still there is a much longer tread on this topic where it has been shown that counts as charging =/= charging with references to the big rule book for your benefit.

[Minsc]

There is a big discussion about this in the other tread but it breaks down as the following.

There are two conditions in which the wielder can not use their lance.

1: If it is a subsequent turn
2: if they did not charge.

If either of those conditions are true then the lance can not be used. ( this is the meaning of "or").

But the unit did charge, so can use their lance. "or did not charge" means that if you charge you can use it if you charged.

Even if I accept that the wielder did charge it doesn't matter because they still can't use the lance because it is a subsequent turn.   Still there is a much longer tread on this topic where it has been shown that counts as charging =/= charging with references to the big rule book for your benefit.

And there we go with the "count as charging isn't actually charging" again...

Can you give me a page reference for where the rules say that "count as charge" isn't an actual charge? Because I'm pretty sure the rules say the exact opposite.

[commandant]

We have been through this before but it is on page 119

Who Can Charge?

Not all units can charge. Units that are already engaged in
combat, that are fleeing, or that rallied during the Strategy
phase of this turn cannot declare a charge or make a charge
move. Units that are in Marching Column can declare a
charge, but cannot make a charge move. In rarer cases, units
maybe prevented from either declaring a charge, or making a
charge move, by a special rule or spell effect.

So unless you wish to argue that the unit was not in combat then it can't make a charge move.

[Minsc]

We have been through this before but it is on page 119

Who Can Charge?

Not all units can charge. Units that are already engaged in
combat, that are fleeing, or that rallied during the Strategy
phase of this turn cannot declare a charge or make a charge
move. Units that are in Marching Column can declare a
charge, but cannot make a charge move. In rarer cases, units
maybe prevented from either declaring a charge, or making a
charge move, by a special rule or spell effect.

So unless you wish to argue that the unit was not in combat then it can't make a charge move.

OK? Where in this rule does it state that a unit that "Count as charging" isn't actually following the rules for a charging unit?

How does the rule you quoted in any way invalidate the "Catching the Curs!" rule on page 157, where it says that the pursuing unit count has having charged.

When you say that "Charge" =/= "Count as Charging" for Lances specifically, you are literally making up your own rules by picking and choosing what benefits to get or not to get. 

[commandant]

Not at all. I'm just reading what the book says.  For most weapons counts-as-charges doesn't matter because the weapon doesn't interact with the first turn of combat. Lances are unique because you must stop using them after the first turn of combat.

The question is what is the difference between counts-as-charging and charging? The answer is that counts-as-charging follows the rules for charging except that you are in a subsequent turn of combat instead of the first turn of combat.
Therefore things like flails don't get their bonus despite counting as charging because they are in a subsequent turn of combat and importantly for us knights are not armed with lances but habdweapons in subsequent turns of combat.

[Minsc]

Not at all. I'm just reading what the book says.  For most weapons counts-as-charges doesn't matter because the weapon doesn't interact with the first turn of combat. Lances are unique because you must stop using them after the first turn of combat.

The question is what is the difference between counts-as-charging and charging? The answer is that counts-as-charging follows the rules for charging except that you are in a subsequent turn of combat instead of the first turn of combat.
Therefore things like flails don't get their bonus despite counting as charging because they are in a subsequent turn of combat and importantly for us knights are not armed with lances but habdweapons in subsequent turns of combat.

You are confusing "subsequent turns" with "first turn of combat".

Lances are "subsequent turns" (after charging in, it's from the bearers perspective - if the combat itself is ongoing is irrelevant), and so can be used on the charge/FBIGO. Otherwise a unit of lances that pursuits into a completely different (but ongoing) combat wouldn't get to use their lances either.

With Flails I agree that you don't get the S-bonus after a FBIGO because it specifically says "first turn of combat" (from the units perspective).

With that said, you and I are never going to see eye to eye on this so I'm gonna put a FBIGO out of this discussion for both of our sakes.

[commandant]

The pursuit into a fresh enemy can not be considered as a "subsequent turn of combat" because the knights were not in that combat in the pervious turn.   Therefore the knights are in the first turn of combat, (which allows them to use their lances), and count as charging, (which allows them to use their lances).   

The subsequent turns of combat are also from the bearers perspective.   After making a charge move you are in the first turn of combat. (page 117 of the big rule book)   After your opponent falls back in good order you are in a subsequent turn of combat (FAQ Page 2). 

With that said, you and I are never going to see eye to eye on this so I'm gonna put a FBIGO out of this discussion for both of our sakes.

Maybe giving ground could be discussed

[Skyros]

No it is not based on the fluff element of the FAQ. It is based on the text of the lance rule and the confirmation in the FAQ that the turn of combat fought  following a Fall back in good order is a subsequent round of the same combat.

You're thinking of flails. The lance rules do not care about another 'round of the same combat' at all. The words don't even appear in the lance rules.

Lances only care if you charged, and FBIGO specifically says that you count as charging, even if you didn't technically make a charge move when you pursue and catch an enemy unit that FBIGO.

I would ask what "in subsequent turns" means?

There are two possibilities

1) You can use a lance on any turn you charged. On subsequent player turns, where you didn't charge, you must use your hand weapon
2) You can use a lance on the first turn you charged. On all subsequent player turns, whether you charged or not, you must use a hand weapon instead.

These are the only two possible interpretations supported by the text of the lance rules. People who don't read the rules carefully tend to mix up lances with flails, and start bringing in terms like "subsequent rounds of combat" or "only once in the same combat" etc. Phrases and words that do not appear in the lance rules at all.

[Skyros]

We have been through this before but it is on page 119

Who Can Charge?

Not all units can charge. Units that are already engaged in
combat, that are fleeing, or that rallied during the Strategy
phase of this turn cannot declare a charge or make a charge
move. Units that are in Marching Column can declare a
charge, but cannot make a charge move. In rarer cases, units
maybe prevented from either declaring a charge, or making a
charge move, by a special rule or spell effect.

So unless you wish to argue that the unit was not in combat then it can't make a charge move.

That literally doesn't matter. The rules for FBIGO say that even though you didn't technically make a charge move, AND you technically didn't declare a charge, you count as charging for all rules purposes.

Not at all. I'm just reading what the book says.  For most weapons counts-as-charges doesn't matter because the weapon doesn't interact with the first turn of combat. Lances are unique because you must stop using them after the first turn of combat.

No, you're wrong. You're thinking of flails. Please stop misquoting rules so badly. The lance rules do not mention 'the first round of combat' or any of the words in that phrase.

You keep using the phrase "subsequent turn of combat". Can you please cite the page in the rules where this phrase is defined?

[Skyros]

The question is what is the difference between counts-as-charging and charging? The answer is that counts-as-charging follows the rules for charging except that you are in a subsequent turn of combat instead of the first turn of combat.

This is very much not true. Imagine a unit that had a random movement, and thus never declared a charge, but the rules said that if its random movement carried it into an enemy unit, it would count as charging. It would still be the first round of combat.

You are conflating the two parts of FBIGO together

1) If you pursue an enemy unit that fled, and catch it, you re-enter combat with that unit
2) If you do this, you count as charging

The first part cannot be a general rules difference between units that actually charged, and units that count as charging.

[commandant]

Yes if its random move carried it into the enemy it would be the first turn of combat and it would count as charging. The entire point here is that it is not the first turn of combat after a FBIGO

[Skyros]

Do the rules use the phrase 'first turn of combat' anywhere?

Or do they use the phrase 'first round of combat'?

A turn is a player turn. Combat is divided up into rounds, not turns. (see page 144, 145)
We can't use the two terms interchangeably, because the same unit might be able to fight in several different combat rounds in the same player turn if they pursued and then overran (see pages 156, 157)

You have been very inconsistent in your usage of these terms, so I want to check that you know they are different.

A weapon that says "You get the strength bonus in the player TURN you charged" is very different than one that says "You get the strength bonus in the combat ROUND  you charged", for the reasons I outlined above.

[commandant]

Do the rules use the phrase 'first turn of combat' anywhere?

Or do they use the phrase 'first round of combat'?

Yes, by virtue of the being subsequent rounds of combat. If there are subsequent rounds then there must be a first round.

A unit can fight in more than one combat but it can't fight in multiple rounds (or turns) of the same combat within a single turn.