Topic: Bring back War Wagons!

[MagicJuggler]

Hey there. While some may complain that there would be overlap in between the tasks assigned a War Wagon and a Steam Tank, I am of the school which says that both can be fluffy, distinct armychoices. Depending on how wants to do it, I would ideally treat a War Wagon as a special choice for while it's rare enough not to be rank-and-file, surely there are more than 8 remaining wagons no?

While the Steam Tank remains a mobile platform for placing cool gadgets and weapons, as well as running opponents down, I figure the wagon exists mainly as a way to transport a ragtag bunch of warriors. Not necessarily engineers although such an option should exist. Rather, I would like to see a wagon that has several regular handgunners and regular flail-infantry (perhaps a stipulation stating the flail-infantry HAVE to pursue after a victorious combat and the wagon can't)...hmm.

Who here would be in favor of this, as a means to give Empire more heavy options without playing Stank armored company?

[Inarticulate]

I suppose it could be bought specifically for a handgunner unit.. Gives them move and fire and lots of protection from ranged attacks.

[MagicJuggler]

Either Handgunners or crossbows perhaps. Of course, being a chariot would mean that S7 still autokills them instantly. Just to be fair, perhaps make it so it can't turn in any direction like a Chariot can just because it's a 4-wheeled peasant wagon not designed for rough terrain usage (can turn 45* each turn or something like?)

Maybe add rules to allow the wagon to dig-in with any unit assaulting the wagon counting as going through a defended obstacle? Similar to how the Hussites used them? Perhaps allow for 2 emplaced swivel guns on the wagon itself (basically S6, Ap handguns).

So maybe a regular wagon as core would be capable, with an Engineer Wagon as special instead? Or is this too finicky?

[Inarticulate]

Empire: Mechanized Legion!

[Castozor]

Sounds cool. I think the idea of a transport option isn't that far-fetched either. The Empire needs to defend a large area with limited troops. So a form of transport would be a good addition.

Castozor

[der Hurenwiebel]

hitch that baby to a steam tank and it's made entirely of WIN!!
Edited for forgotten content
On a less rapacious note I do like the idea of a Hussite war wagon army, in the AoC WAB book war wagon rules are thus.  Also a distinction is made between these and a wagon Tabor, as I will also illustrate.


T6/W4  Mobile fighting platform
War wagons 80 points without crew, but with two barded horses carries 6, 3 handgunners and 3 halberds (3x8 +3x6= 42) 122 points total.  Movement is basically normal save that if it turns (more than 45degrees) it's movement is halved.  Missile crewmen may fire twice without the multiple shot penalty (basically they're all armed with handguns) as well they count as not having moved when firing since they are essentially standing in a chariot that is moving for them+2 to their armour saves as per heavy cover. Also the warwagon itself cannot be damaged by individually operated missile weapons only war machines can damage it.  As war wagons are robust war machines simply glancing a cannonball off a part of it won't damage it, roll for damage as per normal.  This eliminates the possibility of the S7 autokill 

Likewise in close combat hits are randomised between the WW and the crew just like hit's from shooting, although hits from CC can damage the WW (pulling it apart etc.)

A WW is considered to be the equal in ranks to the deepest of it's opponents has no flanks nor rear, and is never subject to panic and is never automatically broken. (Fear or terror) However if it fails a break test it is simply removed from play and it's loss will trigger panic tests (obviously not other WW's though).  WW's are treated as defended obstacles.


Wagon Tabor, immobile not as sturdy. essentially player owned terrain
T6/W3
15points 5-10 defenders bought individually from the army list.  these can be any infantry the player chooses but best is a mix of missile and combat troops.

will continue tomorrow just looked at the time.
Edit: I'm back

a wagon tabor is essentially an unhitched wagon with the wheels spiked or chained to the ground (like a cannon would be) so it cannot be unintentionally moved and extra hoardings, gunports and other defenses erected to protect the occupants.

It provides a +2 defense to the defender's armour save, do not have flanks or a rear, not damaged by individually operated missile weapons, hits are distributed 1-4 tabor and 5-6 defenders.  Missile defenders cannot fire twice like WW crews.

mounted units may not pass through them as they are an obstacle, nor may infantry march through them, and if it's wounds are reduced to 0 it is removed from play and is no longer an obstacle.  They are a defended obstacle. 

So that's about it I'd tie these to an engineer being in the army as an unlockable troop choice or terrain choice.   

[Captain Tineal]

The rules for the original weren't bad either, but der H posted some cool rules too.

I would love the return of the War Wagon.

[der Hurenwiebel]

just lifting them from the armies of chivalry book that warhammer historical put out.

[Rodman49]

Although der H has posted some complex and thorough rules I believe they are a little too complicated and maybe undercosted.  First we need to analyze what a War Wagon did, what should it do now, and if the new wagon would either make an older unit obsolete or cover the same role as another unit.

1.  What it did? - The old War Wagon was an offensive weapon with significant firepower (blunderbuss, repeater handgun, and hochland long rifle).  It also had interesting and high threat weapons (man catcher, hook halberd, ball and chain) for hand to hand.  The Wagon also acted as a chariot that did impact hits and pumped out 8 attacks in close combat.  Overall it was a strong offensive unit similar to the Steam Tank with more reliability and less durability.  In addition the unit could shoot as hard as a unit of handgunners.

2.  What should it do now? - The War Wagon should probably fill the same role it did in the past, an offensive unit that has firepower and durability but should not compete directly with the Steam Tank.  The first way to do this is make it a special choice.  Now its competing with the other special choices - Pistoliers, Outriders, Greatswords, IC Knights, Cannons, and Mortars.  So the War Wagon must give a different role than any of these units.  Let's make it a chariot so that its less durable than the Steam Tank and fills a drastically different role than the artillery, Greatswords, and Pistoliers.  We'll start off with a statline somewhere between the War Altar and the Steam Tank:

Chariot
S - 5
T - 5
W - 5
Armor Save: 3+

Notice that we gave it 5 wounds in order to make it cancel ranks.  It is real close to eclipsing Inner Circle Knights at this point - except that it can't march nor does it pump out Strength 6 attacks.

For shooting power we need to make it have less firepower than a unit of Outriders and longer range than Pistoliers.  A good aiming point would be to make it shoot about as hard as one 10 man unit of Handgunners.  I propose we have it shoot 2d6 handgun shots (experimental weapons being a tad unwieldy and unpredictable) but give the War Wagon a special rule that makes its passengers always count as stationary for firing weapons.

The last thing to do is then figure out how many attacks the crew should have and any special rules they should have for Hand to Hand.  Since the War Wagon has six crew lets give them the typical 3 WS 3 BS etc infantry statline.  To take into account the special Experimental Weapons they have in close combat lets give the crew the Killing Blow special rule.

In Summary
8th Edition War Wagon:
Chariot
S - 5
T - 5
W - 5
Save - 3+

Unit Size:
1

Crew:
6 Imperial Soldiers (base statline)

Drawn By:
2 Barded Warhorses (-1 Movement) (base statline)

Special Rules:
Firebase (Ranged Weapons always count as stationary)
Hail of Lead (Crew shoots 2d6 Handgun Shots)
Experimental Weapons (Killing Blow in Close Combat)

Points:
175

Slot:
Special Choice

(Also forgot this, which should be in every book).
Unit Strength:
10

Base Size:
50mm X 100mm

[MagicJuggler]

Question: With such a large number of crew, are there means to take them out, the way one can snipe stegadon riders or so? Personally, I believe that the War Wagon should consist of two Light Cannons instead.

Light Cannon: move and fire, requires 2 soldiers to fire.

Range 18, Strength 6, D3 wounds. Cannon
Special Note: Can grapeshot, but divide strength by 2 then add 1. For example, instead of strengths 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, one would have strengths 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Misfires are as normal.
On a misfire, the wagon loses d3 soldiers.

Finally, Killing Blow by itself is meh. I'd take strength 4 any day...perhaps make them KB halberds instead?

[der Hurenwiebel]

With the options of two types of "war wagon" one could have an assaulting mobile fighting platform that will act as a marchblocker and even tarpit if you wish.  In the case of the wagon Tabors a battlefield fortress that even Dwarfs would envy the likes of as the wagon tabors would block line of sight to cannons who also would benefit from the +2 cover and tabor occupying units could even theoretically be swapped out at the last round before contact, they do count as defended obstacles too (forgot that bit) will edit and include it.  The war wagons themselves have 4 wounds as well as the crew's 6 wounds making then US 10 easily cancelling rank bonus to the last surviving crewman or last WW wound. 

Not so complex, perhaps undercosted as they are for another game system, although every other rules profile I have ever imported from WAB has been over costed in comparison to WFB.  Certainly they are more complex than a simple two man charge in and runemover type chariot, but not so complex as the old six different engineer weapons WW.  The WAB WW would dish out the same CC hits as the old WW and only slightly less shooty than the old one although perhaps more reliably and with more ease of use being that they are all the same range and S weapon, and are not affected by movement nor multiple shots. 

Just some additional thought while I edit the stuff I forgot from the other night
 

[Sir Paradus Hithili]

I bet on 95% likely hood IMO that the war wagon will come into the list and eventually as a 2 model kit which will make the wagon or the war altar. It just seems so likely since not only is the war wagon a good new unit for the empire, but since they are trying to make the empire 100% plastic its the best candidate for a altar 2 model kit (Since thats what they have been doing with in regards to plastic characters nowdays).

cheers.

[Rodman49]

I don't know about that.  The War Wagon is a decent idea but will it sell as many models as a TANK . . .

[Soulcaresser]

I don't know about that.  The War Wagon is a decent idea but will it sell as many models as a TANK . . .

There you have a good statline fore and the selling goes like hell.

[Sandor]

I'm not sure if making offensive "mini s tank" is best idea considering original background of war wagons .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_wagon

and how it was used

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabor_(formation)

[der Hurenwiebel]

yup, which is why warhammer historical has two types of war wagon and why I wrote down here for all your benefit those two sets of rules.  They are intended to run concurrently.  An army may have one, the other, or both if it chooses, but the models work differently. 

[Wolfgang aus Wien]

My question: If you put 'light cannon' on a war wagon, where do they go (roll) for the recoil?
Must be a pretty large wagon.......

[der Hurenwiebel]

The wagon tabors had small cannons about the size of ship borne Deck Guns, scots "frame guns" or demi calivers.  So recoil wouldn't have been as much of an issue as a full size cannon.  Damage from one of these would be about like taking a shot from one or two hellblaster barrels, since they also were commonly filled with cannister shot for anti personnel.

[rufus sparkfire]

One important fact about the war wagon in WAB that I didn't see mentioned is that it can't charge. It's intended as a firing platform, and a defense against cavalry.

Now really, war wagons were already obsolete by the time period that the Empire is largely modeled on, since they could easily be destroyed by field artillery. But here are the rules that were used in the last warhammer-empire campaign list:


War Wagon: Costs 150 points.

A War Wagon is considered to be a chariot (and so is mounted on a 50 by 100mm base, as for all chariots), with the following exceptions: it can never charge or pursue under any circumstances, and may not chose to flee as a charge reaction. If forced to flee, it moves only d6". Also, it is not destroyed automatically by a wounding hit of Strength 7 or greater. It automatically fails Initiative tests. The War Wagon is Stubborn, and immune to Fear and Panic (treat Terror as Fear). It is a large target.

Any cavalry, chariot or mounted model of any kind that charges the War Wagon does not count as charging, and thus does not receive any charge-related bonuses (such as impact hits, the strength bonus from lances, or striking first). There is no combat resolution bonus for flank or rear attacks against the wagon itself (this applies to any units attacking the War Wagon, not just to mounted models and chariots).

The War Wagon has an armour save of 3+, Movement 5, Toughness 6, Wounds 6 and Leadership 8. It may make 6 Attacks in combat with Weapon Skill 3, Strength 4, Initiative 3.

It may fire 6 handguns at Ballistic Skill 4 (the handguns may fire even if the War Wagon moves, but the usual penalties apply). The handguns are considered to have a 360 degree line of sight for shooting purposes.

[Wolfsgaum]

Now really, war wagons were already obsolete by the time period that the Empire is largely modeled on, since they could easily be destroyed by field artillery. But here are the rules that were used in the last warhammer-empire campaign list:

The thing to keep in mind when considering any historical detail is that the Empire isn't fighting the same types of enemies that the Holy Roman Empire fought.

[der Hurenwiebel]

Yeah I missed that rule about the mobile war wagons, naturally enough the tabors can't charge either.

[rufus sparkfire]

The thing to keep in mind when considering any historical detail is that the Empire isn't fighting the same types of enemies that the Holy Roman Empire fought.

That's quite right. There are a lot of technologically backwards enemies out there, such as elves.

[der Hurenwiebel]

and inexplicably technologically advanced enemies like ratling gun Skaven gunlines.

that's GW for ya

[Valetus]

I really want one! It should just be a tough chariot with a few halberds and a repeater handgun or something on top that could maybe fire on the move.

[Smythen]

Keep it simple guys.

Strength 5 Toughnes 5 Wounds 4 Armor Save 4+ (a pretty tough chariot, by the current standard)
Crew. 6 Engineers/ Outrideres.
3 armed with repeater handguns (doesnt counts as moving)
3 armed with Flails. greatweapons, (counts as on foot)
Maybe one armed with Hochland or grenade blunderbus.

[edit]
or just all six armed with handgund and flails.