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Messages - Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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The Count's Tavern / Re: Unhappy Random thoughts...
« on: September 18, 2018, 12:24:54 PM »
Sounds phoney to me.

Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

The fat lady is not singing yet, but now seems a good time for Warlord, Padre or anyone else to bring up ideas/ask questions about the combat reform of entire units that have not been covered yet.  Otherwise, we will turn to the subject of combat reform and individual models within the units.

The Brush and Palette / Re: Old West
« on: September 15, 2018, 10:18:19 PM »
Ooops....triple post?

That said, change the hat, and you could use him as a Witch Hunter.

Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

In 5.6, there is really nothing that Blue can do to counter Red by reforming himself. However, if Blue can reform first (5.7), he can prevent Red from making any meaningful combat reform, and in the next turn, unit D can choose between a frontal charge against C or a flank charge against B.

@ Padre: The clipping examples were just for reasons of laziness efficiency of labour. As you say, they usually work in other situations too.

On a final note regarding sliding: I do agree that sliding on the charge is in the spirit of the 6th and 7th edition = but not of the 8th edition, where, as explained above, the mechanics are different.  Indeed, the 7th Edition Appendix suggesting sliding gives two concrete examples when to use sliding. Both of these simply cannot occur in the 8th edition, precisely because of the free wheel, which did not exist in previous editions.

In the previous examples we have seen how a combat reform can be used to unblock units by the player whose turn will be next. However, it can also be used to block units by his opponent.

In 5.5, the next turn will Blue's, and unit D is poised to charge unit C, which is a HVT, say a lvl 4 wizard.

If Red can combat reform first (5.6), he can block unit D from charging unit C (and also from charging unit B itself in the flank).

However, unit D can charge unit B instead, and if unit B is destroyed or flees in the ensuing combat with A & D, unit D can pursue/overrun into C, which then has only the option to hold, rather than flee, if the charge had not been blocked.  On the plus side: since he is not fleeing, the lvl 4 wizard is still able to dispel and use magic items in the next (Blue) Magic phase.

The Count's Tavern / Re: Question of copyright on very old paintings
« on: September 14, 2018, 03:44:44 PM »
The artwork as such is in the public domain, if the artist is 70 years dead. However, images of that artwork may still be covered by copyright laws. In the Bridgeman vs Corel court case in 1999, it was ruled that a photograph of a painting is not sufficiently "original" to warrant its own copyright. Obviously, that ruling applies only to the US, and, as far as I know, has not been challenged in a higher court.
I would advise to check the websites themselves, if they have limitations on the use of the pictures they provide.

Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

Blue can still counter this to some degree with his own combat reform - for a price. He can still shift outside the frontal arc of unit C (but not B) by reforming into a horde (5.4). While he cannot escape a charge by unit B, it is now at least turned into a frontal, not flank charge: he will not be disrupted. The price he has to pay is the chance of being steadfast. The maximum number of ranks he can achieve now is 5; and if he loses only two models he is down to four. Note that Red could have decreased that chance even more, by reforming into a bus, instead of just sliding.

Patience, patience - it is not finished until the fat lady sings.

Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

If Red can combat reform first, he can unblock unit B, either by simply sliding to the right, or by reforming into a bus. In 5.3, he has opted to maximise his attacks and retain the horde formation. In this situation, both C & D are set up for a flank charge against A.

If Blue can combat reform first (5.2), unit A can reform out of the frontal arc of unit C, prevent unit B from unblocking unit D, and preserve his own chances of being steadfast in the next round of CC (if need be).

Picture 5.1 depicts Blue's turn, just after the resolution of combat between units A & B. In this situation, it is clear that unit C would be able to declare a flank charge against unit A in the next (Red) turn, but unit D cannot, because it is blocked by unit B.

Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

So far, we have only dealt with situation involving the two units in actual combat. But as the Altdorf poet and cleric Don Johannes said "No combat is an island," and a combat reform can have effects on other units too. In particular, it can affect the possibilities of other units to charge in the next turn.  If the next turn is your own, then you have to consider, if a combat reform may facilitate a charge by one or more of your units. If it is the enemy's turn, then you should consider whether a combat reform could hamper or even prevent enemy units charging.

They made it less likely to occur. And presumably, in those cases where clipping still does occur, e.g. because of an intervening obstacle, sliding would not necessarily be possible anyway when charging.

Do not forget that certain rules changed sharply in 8th edition. In 6th & 7th edition, a charging unit had neither the free wheel nor the unlimited move allowance; nor did combat reform as such exist (the earlier equivalents were far less flexible). I assume that is why they dropped the earlier suggestion to slide during a charge.

The 8th edition designers had 5 years to change this, if they had wanted to - they did not. Indeed, even in the 7th edition, it turns out that sliding was not part of the official rules. I dug out the 7th edition Errata, and they actually say: "Please note that these are not rules, but rather helpful suggestions we encourage you to use to resolve your games in a friendly manner."

Of course, if you and your opponent agree, feel free to play otherwise, but one cannot fault me either for trying to write 8th edition tactica based on the the 8th edition rules, not on houserules.

You are haunted by the ghosts of editions past. Sliding clipping units was allowed by the 7th edition Errata, but not in the 8th edition.
As the rules you yourself quote specify: a charger moves in a straight line towards his target, during which he has one wheel up to 90% to maximise the number of models in combat. Then he must move again in a straight line, until he contacts the enemy, and then he or the enemy closes the door.
If at the end of that process, for whatever reason, the result is clipping units, then that is it. There is no rule whatsoever that allows you to slide clipping units in the Charge sub-phase. As I said before: the only legal way to "slide" clipping units is trough a combat reform.

You seem to forget: this is about combat reform. Combat reform happens at the end of a round of CC, after the Break test. There is no sliding allowed at all when resolving a charge. If the charge results in clipping, then only the two corner models that are in btb can fight. Once that CC is over, a combat reform can bring more models into btb with the enemy.

Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

If Blue can go first and wants to retain his current formation, 4.2 shows the maximal "slide" he can perform, while 4.3 shows the same for Red.

There are, of course, a number of other ways in which the units could execute a combat reform here.

Yes. If Blue had charged the flank instead, then Blue could combat reform along Red's flank, but not his front. I'll make it a bit more explicit in the example.

It is the basic rules of charging: when you resolve a charge, the charging unit brings "its front facing into flush contact with the facing of the enemy unit that has been charged" (BRB p. 20). In the example above, it is specifically stated that Blue charged Red's  front.

Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

Now, it can happen that, because of an obstruction, a unit can complete its charge only by "clipping" its target.  In this case, a combat reform is the only legal form of "sliding."

In 4.1, Blue has declared a charge against Red's front, but could only complete his charge by clipping.


Note that the corner models belong to both the front and the flank. However, since Blue charged Red's front, he is considered to be only in contact with the front, and both units can only combat reform by contacting more of each other's front, not the flank. That is why the rule specifies that "the unit may not reform in such a way as to contact a different facing on any enemy unit it is in contact with." If Blue had declared a charge against Red's flank, then he could only reform along Red's flank, not the front, while Red could still only reform along Blue's front, not the flank.

There is an advantage of 12 wide over 10, though, as I suggested, but only if reds can't or don't reform to 14 wide after.

You might have misunderstood (or I am misunderstanding you now). I said that "there is no advantage of 10 wide over 12." The only advantage is the extra rank, but with 40 attacks, we can safely assume that Red will kill the one Knight that will reduce the Blue ranks to two. So, you might just as well go for 12 wide in the first place.

In a battlefield situation, as you know (and I think stated somewhere) there is often a lot of factors that affect much if what is being discussed - not least the fact that terrain or other units can restrict certain new formations by being in the way.

Obviously. In fact, the possible effects of other units will be the subject of later posts.

On a side note: there are situations, where you want to win but the enemy not to break, for instance, because that unit happens to be blocking a Death Star. In those situations, you should actually aim for the enemy to end up steadfast.

In 3.3 couldn't Blue reform from a 5 to an 8 frontage instead of the 6 frontage illustrated, thus gaining more attacks (four more 1A knights and two horses compared to a 6 front) and crucially forcing Red to remain 'as is' because he can't remove models from combat and so is now stuck with 10 front and cannot reform into a bus of any kind to increase depth and hope for steadfast.

Indeed Blue could reform to a 10 frontage (as another 5 on the front would still have base to base contact) and gain more attacks. Or form into a 12 frontage, adding 14 knights' attacks and 7 horses' attacks to the original 5 frontage situation? Red couldn't reform into a bus, but could add a few more attacks on the side. Might not be a problem, however, if their Initiative is lower.

Naturally, Blue could reform in different ways. However, if he reforms 10 wide, he will have only three ranks; and only two if he suffers a single casualty. Reforming 12 wide, he will have two ranks from the start. In both cases, Red starts with 4 ranks. To prevent Red from being steadfast, Blue (assuming he ends up with two ranks) needs to kill at least 16 models. The 12 wide version would get on average 12-13 kills; the 10 wide version a bit less.  Averages are averages, of course, and some players are more lucky than others.

To add: do not forget that in the horde formation, every additional Red model that is in btb will also add 4 attacks in total for Red. In the case of both 10 wide, and 12 wide that means 40 attacks, and Red must really be very unlucky not to kill at least one Knight. Ceteris paribus, there is no advantage of 10 wide over 12 wide.

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