Topic: Filth vs Filth - Skaven vs Waltar + 2 Stank Empire: Complete

[Gazzor]

Hi all,

Had an interesting game today vs Skaven.

I used my usual list.

1   Arch Lector      
      Sword of Might   
      Armour of Meteoric Iron   
      Von Horstman's Speculum   
      War Altar   295

1   Steam Tank      300

1   Steam Tank      300

1   Great Cannon      100

1   Great Cannon      100

1   Great Cannon      100

1   Great Cannon      100

1   Battle Wizard      
      Level 2   
      Barded Warhorse   
      Ring of Volans   
      Rod of Power   164

1   Battle Wizard      
      Level 2   
      Barded Warhorse   
      Dispel Scroll   
      Dispel Scroll   164

1   Battle Wizard      
      Level 2   
      Barded Warhorse   
      Doomfire Ring   
      Power Stone   164


5   Knightly Order      
      Standard   
      War Banner   
      Musician   164

5   Knightly Order      
      Standard   
      Musician   139

10   Crossbowmen      80
5   Crossbowmen      40
5   Crossbowmen      40

         2250

My opponent was using:

Warlord: Fell Blade (S10, does D6 wounds), 6+ ward.
3 warlocks with 2 scrolls, 4+ ward, Storm Deamon, Reroll charm, +1 PD item.
3 x 25 Clan Rats.
3 x 20 Slaves.
3 x Ratling Guns
2 Plague Rat Swarms
2 x Warp Lightning Cannons
8 Jezzails
3 x 4 Gutter Runners Tunnel Teams with add hw and poison.

So a pretty hard list.

Here's how we deployed:



I deployed thus:
Knights with war banner, green wizard, Cannon, STank, Waltar, Red Wizard with x-bows, cross bows + 2 detachments of x-bows, Cannon, Cannon, Stank, Knights, Blue Wizard, Cannon.

Skaven Deployed:
Plague Rats, Slaves, Ratler, Clan Rats, Warlock, Warp Lightning Cannons, Clan Rats, Warlord, Warlock, Ratler, Slaves, Ratler, Clan Rats, Jezzails, Slaves.
3 Tunnel Team markers placed as shown by the lightning circles.

I wasn't expecting my cannons (Or even my wizards to live for long).

Scarily enough, apart from the second Warp Lightning cannon and 3rd Tunnel team (Replacing some Plague Monks and Censer Bearers), this is the standard army my opponent uses...



The battle will be posted soon.


Cheers,

Gazzor

[Ratarsed]

Well the Skaven certainly has the tools to win. This is exactly the type of army Skaven can do well against. Who gets 1st turn will be a big factor and a lot will depend on his tunnel teams appearing promptly and if his jezzails been deployed out of range of the crossbows. I'm looking forward to the report.

I hope you will not be too offended, but i'm rooting for the rats

Ratarsed

[BAWTRM]

I think it will all come down to those Ratling guns, If Gazzor manages to take those out before his Cannons are overrun by tunnel teams he should be good.

If the Skaven player is smart he'll anchor both of his flanks with those Slaves by plugging the holes between the terrain and the table edge. Even with their low Ld (out of range of General), their static CR should see those knights off.

[Vlad]

Why is one of the warplightning cannons in the open???
They are instant destroyed by s7+ hit like a chariot and can shoot though terrain, no los needed.
 (i hope im reading the map correctly)
But still the rats should win unless there is some freaky luck on the Empire side

[Fandir Nightshade]

I hope for the Empire because hey those kind of skaven lists are deployed more than often enough. Gazzor is an outcast for fielding his list...why? Because Empire players are used to fairplay...I say feed the rat some blackpowder.

[Gazzor]

Hi folks,

Here it is.

Skaven get first turn...   

Luckily magic is a bit weak.  +1 PD item loses him one dice and his storm deamon runs out.  No casualties taken so far.  Unfortunately his jezzaile manage 2 wounds on a Stank.  Not good.
Also the rats are a lot closer.

Empire 1:  I manage to cannon snipe 2 jezzails, panicking them off the board, as well as killing 2 ratlers.  I hit the left warp lightning cannon twice, rolling 1s to wound it each time...
Magic is pretty good, panicking a bunch of Slaves.
My left Stank takes 2 wounds as it's cannon misfires trying to take out the left warp lightning cannon.



Skaven 2: No tunnelers yet,  Skaven get closer.  left WLC shoots at my war altar.  It's only S2, but wounds, gets past the ward (Forgot about 5+ armour) and does 6 wounds.  The lector's on foot now...
1 Knight dies to warp lightning.  Luckily Skaven lost a power dice again.

Empire 2: Stank on left misfires cannon again shooting at left warp lightning cannon.  Takes 3 wounds.  Has now taken 5 wounds...
Magic is medicore, due to some bad wizard positioning.
Warlord unit is shot lots, down to 10 rats, but doesn't panic.



Skaven 3: The Skaven hit home!  My right knights + mage are swept away, as is my right cannon.  I had totally misjudged the distance I was away from them.  My red wizard is fried to death by an irresistable warp lightning cast by the central warlock.
The left warp lightning cannon shoots my right Stank with S8, but the Stank makes it's armour save.
My cross bows flee.  One Gutter Runners unit comes up under my left Stank.  They fail to damage it and run in terror.
2 Plague Rat Swarms charge my war banner knights in the front, do nothing, take 5 wounds and crumble to death.

Empire 3: The central warlock is cannoned to death, whilst the right most warlock on the hill makes his 4+ ward save against the cannon ball hitting him. 
The Knights charge the front of the clan rats with a warlock in.  They only wound the warlock once, but kill 2 clan rats for a draw.
The right most Stank manages 4 steam points and rams into the warlord unit.  I'd forgotten that the Fell blade did D6 wounds.  Ho hum.  8 Clan Rats died, leaving the champ and Warlord, who then did 10 wounds to the 8 wound Stank.  A cannon crew panicked away.



Skaven 4: Both other Gutter Runner Tunnel Teams come up.  They minced the fleeing crossbowmen and cannon crew and overran into my green wizard.
A S10 shot from the left warp lightning cannon blew up my other Stank.

Empire 4: My Lector charged the Gutter Runners.  He killed 2 in combat, but they killed the green wizard.  The Lector held.



Rest of game: Lector beat up the Gutter Runners and was set to charge the Warlord when he was cut down by a S8 shot from a warp lightning cannon.  The 2 cannon crew crew on my right decided to run back to Nuln.

The end.




Post Mortem:

Ah well, could have gone better.  We both had some very bad luck, so that cancelled itself out.  The real difference was that the Skaven had a good solid plan and used ther strengths well, whereas I failed to manouver my army properly or use my units to support each other properly.  There was no reason not to deploy my entire army beheind the hill and shoot him to death from afar.

The tunnelers are one thing you can't plan for as they have an effective 18" 360 degree charge arc, so can kill any war machine or wizard they want once they emerge.  Plonking tanks on top of the tunnel markers only works 1/3 of the time.

Despite being mullered I've take a lot of positives from the game, like how I need to better support my units and anticipate enemy march block zones better.

I was expecting to be mullered, by a list that was pretty much designed to take me out.  And I wasn't disappointed in that respect.  And with some better play and better luck on my part I could have got the win.

I may tweak the list a bit.  Maybe drop one cannon for some fast cav.  Also drop some cross bows for a unit of 5 flagellants with prophet of doom.  In a little conga line formation they should be able to march block an 8" radius for at least 2 turns, all being well.

Hope you liked the report.


Cheers,

Gazzor

[Wyzer1]

ya. we've complained a bunch about gavors list on other threads... 

Now lets root for him to crush some pathetic lil rats!

<Orrator Mode>

Men of the Empire! We have suffered through 6 editions of cheese, but when have we had our day! With Gazzor at the lead, lets show our opponents just what we have had to endure! I say, Eye for an Eye, and Cheddar for some Mozzarella!

</Orrator Mode>

EDIT: Meh, you beat me to it... Oh well, better luck next time 

[Captain Tineal]

What an ugly scrap!  You guys both had some hard luck.

[Mystic Force]

Now the big question,

The list which people think he should take (You know it ends up looking like a TVI varriant after you people are done in the parade ground) would it have handled this better?

[Ratarsed]

I was thinking much the same and it would be interesting to see how Gazzor fared against the Skaven with a more traditional Empire army.
I know facing mortars and Hellstorms with my Skaven scares me witless as one good hit can send a clanrat unit along with a warlock running for the tunnels never to return

Ratarsed

[Fandir Nightshade]

Did he roll each turn for the fell blade? He looses life every third turn (statistically...judging that guys dice rolling his lord should have been dead by the time he fought the stank)  Hmm Skaven gimmicks....the headsplitter seems also very nice a normal sling but against t 5 or more wounding on 2+ with no armour save. Hmmmm

[clausewitz]

Now the big question,

The list which people think he should take (You know it ends up looking like a TVI varriant after you people are done in the parade ground) would it have handled this better?

Fair question.

But that's not really the point.  When people are advised in the Parade Ground not to build armies like this it's not because a more balanced army is more powerful (or more likely to win).  It is because it is more fun to play (requiring and rewarding good tactics more) and also more fun for your opponent.

In Gazzor's case he is trying out an unusual army.  That's fine with me.  His opponents seem aware of the situation and if they all enjoy the game thats the point.  Whether they would enjoy playing this build for the 5th or 6th time..?

[Gneisenau]

Alright - 8 Jezzails and 2 WLC, what did you expect would happen? The only option at all would have been rushing your tanks forward full speed and hope that terror chases the rats of the board. Letting them in the back field makes your 600 pts. sitting ducks.

No solid battle line, but three large targets that can be easily turned to scrap metal by enemy warmachines. An infantry batallion would have probably won the fight against the fellblade unit, for example. Next time drop both tanks and two cannons and spend some points on men.

Now the big question,

The list which people think he should take (You know it ends up looking like a TVI varriant after you people are done in the parade ground) would it have handled this better?

Definitely. No saying that he would have won, since the skaven list is pretty hard. But with the option of picking the ratling guns as separate targets in 7th, there's not much in his list that could take out large units, except magic. Take some good magic defense, and you have a chance. Atchman's article on beating skaven is excellent, and 7th ed has made the job a bit easier.

His opponents seem aware of the situation and if they all enjoy the game thats the point. 

In the end, that's all that matters, true.

[Ratarsed]

The Skaven list is only pretty hard against other pretty hard lists. Against blocks of infantry the WLC, Jezzails are not that dangerous and with only a couple of War machines 3 tunnel teams are overkill. Combat detachments are the bane of the Skaven. A couple of Handgunner units with Jezzails (to pick of the ratlings and maybe do a wound on the Warlocks) and blocks of infantry with combat detachment and archer screen detachments and the Skaven are going to be in for a hard time. The empire would have a much better chance against this sort of Skaven build at any rate.

Ratarsed

[BAWTRM]

Can those Warp Lightning Cannons actually march?

I ask because on the diagrams they cover one hell of a lot of ground in just a single turn, that and my regular rat opponent never moves the things out of cover.

[Davido]

yeah they can march shocked the hell out of me the first time I saw it

[Fandir Nightshade]

are u sure? I thought they count as chariots

[Mark Perry]

Dont fire the stanks cannons unless absolutly necessary, its not worth risking the missfire.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Jep I never fire it ...and I hope for the white dwarf article introducing the steam tank variants.

[Gazzor]

Hi all,

Glad you enjoyed the report.

1) Was pretty ugly. 

2) Mortars are reliant on soft squishy stuff to hit.  I find that the cannons are useful vs pretty much every army, whereas mortars are rendered moot by hard and well armoured stuff.

3) He did roll for fellblade each turn.  3+ every time.

4) I've seen raditional Empire armies down the club.  How well they do tends to depend on the player.  Saw one Empire army get mullered lat week.  We'll see how I do this week with my own version of Empire.

5) Don't agree on just whaling forwards.  What I should have done was held further back for 2 turns to allow my 4 cannons to do their work.  I should also have deployed on one side - traditional for a small hard army.

6) So against an all infantry list the WLCs and jezzails aren't that dangerous - true, but what list doesn't have knights and wizards who  would much rather wander around on their own?

7) WLCs can march, cos Alessio wanted them to be really good, just like all the other Skryre stuff.

8) I thought Stank firing worth the risk to take out the WLC.  Would probably do it again.  Far better chance of the WLC nailing me.  Wouldn't have bothered if it wasn't subject to chariot auto kill.


Cheers,

Gazzor

[Vlad]

Just a tip against WLC, if you can see it declare a charge, because it has to flee as a reaction no matter what, so just declare a charge and watch it run. And like everything else it cant shoot when it rallies, so it might run off board and if it doesnt it cant shoot in their turn anyway

[Wyzer1]

Just a tip against WLC, if you can see it declare a charge, because it has to flee as a reaction no matter what, so just declare a charge and watch it run. And like everything else it cant shoot when it rallies, so it might run off board and if it doesnt it cant shoot in their turn anyway

but only do it if you think you can charge in the first place... because turn 1 charges on it is just plain being a bad sport

[Fandir Nightshade]

It is even against the rules...see the actual FAQ.
Declaring Charges that you know won^t reach the target are cheating.

[Finlay]

"There was no reason not to deploy my entire army beheind the hill and shoot him to death from afar"

[clausewitz]

It is even against the rules...see the actual FAQ.
Declaring Charges that you know won^t reach the target are cheating.

Quite right.  A most despicable form of cheating IMO.