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Author Topic: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book  (Read 27007 times)

Offline Warlord

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Re: UPDATED - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2007, 01:41:32 AM »
I don't really like the idea of warrior priests of anything but the angry three (Sigmar, Ulric, Myrmmidia). It just doesn't seem right. Nevertheless, the rules you've made look like they would be fun to use.

Please, no scythe for the priest of Morr! It's not associated with Morr in any direct way, and is not in character for his priests.
I agree most of these wouldn’t see battle – especially Ranald, but I just wanted to write it up….

I know they don’t use scythe’s, but I need something to give him that makes his armament unique… Do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions?

Why can't witch hunters wear full plate? It's part of the required trappings in WFRP (V1).
Fixed – and changed to remove them from taking shields.

Not even light armour for huntmasters? Why?
I originally had the Hunters cloak with a rule for -1 to hit in close combat as well – removing part of the requirement for armour. I still am not convinced that light armour will make a difference, and I also worry that opening the door to Magic Armour will suggest to people ‘here is your new candidate for AoMI’. Our scouts can’t take armour, so why should he? High Elf scouts only get light armour, and they are nimble elves… He can always take a ward save. His role is to support the huntsmen (primarily IMO) rather than lead them into frequent combats.

I'm not to keen of the upgrades for the Captain. I would never take the Hunt master, he seems kinda useless and just a way to get a HLR on another guy with bs 5.
Thats your choice. I see it more as having the ability to have a hero level character in a unit of scouts. Most other armies that have scouts allow it - so why can't we?
Eh, yeah but that doesn’t really mean we need to have a hero that can scout. Since we still have to take the huntsmen in numbers of ten. That unit coupled with the addition of a weaker character is just easy victory points in an army that relies on denying victory points.  But we already have a great warrior priest and a lord level warrior priest, it just seems like he is low on the list of things that the Empire army needs.
I hear your point, but the whole point of giving all these options is simply for that; Options. You don’t have to take a Hunt Master, but you may find him fluffy in certain situations or certain builds. It can be argued that we don’t need to use the Warrior Priests either, alternatively the inclusion of these ‘great’ warrior priests means that we can include one.
Just a quick question – what province does your army hail?


What about Priests of Shallya? Sure, they wouldn't really be in the thick of it, but spells of healing, calming and anti-adverse psychology would be theirs...
I considered it, but the priest of Sigmar can heal already. Short of resurrecting the dead, Shallya wouldn’t add much that a WP of Sigmar or Light Wizard couldn’t.
Besides, they don’t fight, they just head – and the profile would not reflect this…

but a priest of Ranald? Or of Shallya? Surely, T4, A2 and WS4 doesn't really fit these characters. Some of these priests would rather benfit from a wizard-like profile I think.
No and Yes… For Shallya yes, however for Ranald, those guys are sneaky and lucky. They have had a lot of experience getting out of tough situations. The elevated profile reflects this IMO.

I like the engineers rules  :icon_biggrin:  it makes them worth taking. I would like to bring up one point. I like the fact that the engineer can repair the Steam Tank out in the field. However, I feel taking the Steam Tank beyond its starting wounds is a little over powering.
It can make it overpowering, but no more than the Black Coach (and future Black Coach from what I hear). Also, it doesn’t take much effort to take many wounds off the tank, rendering it useless.
Spending a few turns at the beginning 'repairing it' while keeping it out of combat - and therefore in greater risk from missile fire could be a good or bad thing. It may be more reliable later in the game, potentially you miss an opportunity to charge, or find it out of position against the enemy because you were trying to 'bolster it' to long. In general I think it will only be used in the first or send turn, and possibly in the last 2 turns to repair damage. The thing is, keeping it out of missile fire, etc. could mean the rest of your army suffers. It becomes a tactical choice.

I am thinking of re-writing this rule though… I will update the current one, and write a new one. I will leave both there so you (and others) can compare and decide which is better…
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 02:03:15 AM by Warlord »
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: UPDATED - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2007, 09:17:59 AM »
I know they don’t use scythes, but I need something to give him that makes his armament unique… Do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions?

You could perhaps have him use a mace or something? There's no particular weapon associated with Morr. I can't see why he would have killing blow either. Morr is not a violent god (he's the god of the dead, not the god of death), and is not responsible for the taking of life. Killing blow sounds more suitable for followers of his evil brother Khaine. Morr's priests should have bonuses when fighting the undead instead.


Quote from: Warlord
I originally had the Hunters cloak with a rule for -1 to hit in close combat as well – removing part of the requirement for armour. I still am not convinced that light armour will make a difference, and I also worry that opening the door to Magic Armour will suggest to people ‘here is your new candidate for AoMI’. Our scouts can’t take armour, so why should he? High Elf scouts only get light armour, and they are nimble elves… He can always take a ward save. His role is to support the huntsmen (primarily IMO) rather than lead them into frequent combats.

Fair enough. You could allow him light armour while still forbidding magic armour. Dwarfs can have a scout with the equivalent of full plate. I just think light armour would be nice for fluff reasons.
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Offline Powder Monkey

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2007, 02:26:22 PM »
Quote
I know they don't use scythes, but I need something to give him that makes his armament unique… Do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions?

You could perhaps have him use a mace or something? There's no particular weapon associated with Morr. I can't see why he would have killing blow either. Morr is not a violent god (he's the god of the dead, not the god of death), and is not responsible for the taking of life. Killing blow sounds more suitable for followers of his evil brother Khaine. Morr's priests should have bonuses when fighting the undead instead.

Gods, I hate it how everybody misunderstands the cult of Morr. Scythes, skulls, black candles and grim faces everywhere! People seem to automatically assume that any priest of death wants to kill enemies left and right, to produce more 'customers', or at least have a special ability and tendency to kill... I'd like to point people of these opinions to another god called 'Khorne', he's just what you need for your killy urges.

I highly respect GW for creating the Cult of Morr (Although I'm willing to bet a big amount of money that they just ripped it off some historic example, as usual). An organization devoted to the care for the departed, to ensure that their rest is undisturbed. They do not kill by nature, or have a special interest in the act of killing the living - they specialize in the part that comes after dying, and fight against parties that want to corrupt it. I imagine a priest of Morr to be a far more sympathetic fellow than the average preacher of Sigmar!

EDIT:
So concerning the prayers of Morr: I do not like how they are geared towards killing stuff indiscriminately. I would either make the damage prayers work against undead only, or change the prayers to protect against panic / fear and help to bolster morale. For in a battle what can a priest charged with the protection of those that are already dead do but assure his men that death will hold nothing bad for them, and that there is nothing to fear? Kind of like the 'no one gets left behind' attitude that can be seen in some war movies: No matter what happens, your guys will watch out for you... I'd feel better!


your PM (Priest of Morr)



PS: Thanks very much for the Priest of Myrmidia! Just what I always wanted: No fireworks, only good honest tactics! But should this...

Quote
For a few moments, Myrmidia's plan is crystal clear in the eyes of commanding officers. This gives them the confidence to proceed as planned.
A selected champion within 12 inches of the Warrior Priest gains +1 Ld. This cannot equal greater than the General’s Leadership. Remains in Play.

...not effect the characters as well? Would be of more use game-wise. Considering that the priest of Sigmar can make units unbreakable, even raising a generals Ld to 10 would not be over the top. It's still only bound Lvl 4, and thus easily disspelled.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 02:48:00 PM by Powder Monkey »
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2007, 02:48:56 PM »
Powder Monkey - it's great to hear from someone with (what I regard as) a proper understanding of the cult of Morr. I agree with you completely.  :icon_biggrin:
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Offline Powder Monkey

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2007, 03:28:23 PM »
Yep, no Morrists on killing sprees while throwing around black rose petals here, no sir. More like a Zen-Priest, accepting death like he accepts each sunrise, and just occasionally bashing in a few heads whose owners want to disturb the balance. Ommmmmmmmmm.  :icon_wink:


Ah, I forgot the weapon of Morr priests: I think the mace was spot on. When faced with the undead, piercing damage or sharp edges won't cut it (pun intended), you should always try to take out the skelettal structure since soft tissue damage won't bother the walking dead. But shatter the bones and presto: Insta-Exorcism! Rest in peace, baby!



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Offline McKnight

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2007, 03:33:53 PM »
The Black Guard of Morr use two handed blades and has developed swift and effective fighting styles to take down undead creatures. (Beheading them)
So maybe it shouldnt be a priest of Morr since they hardly kill anything, but a Black guard...
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Offline Mystic Force

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2007, 03:42:18 PM »
Ok if Priest of Morr are not killy, how about this

A priest of Morr is responsible for the care of the dead.  When a priest of Morr is around, death seems a less scary phenomena.  A unit that includes a Priest of Morr is immune to panic, also when facing undead, the unit is not effected by fear, undead enemies that cause terror only cause fear.
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Offline JGraham

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2007, 05:30:09 PM »
The Black Guard of Morr character in the Witchfinder series was certainly quite killy, but not in any sort of indiscriminate way.  The Black Guard used two-handed swords and lots of black armour (full plate), IIRC.  Probably not appropriate for a Priest of Morr, though.  Hmm... The Black Guard sounds a lot like Greatswords ...  *files away idea*

Jim

Offline Warlord

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2007, 01:45:23 AM »
Change the Hunt Master

Yep, no Morrists on killing sprees while throwing around black rose petals here, no sir. More like a Zen-Priest, accepting death like he accepts each sunrise, and just occasionally bashing in a few heads whose owners want to disturb the balance. Ommmmmmmmmm.  :icon_wink:

Ah, I forgot the weapon of Morr priests: I think the mace was spot on. When faced with the undead, piercing damage or sharp edges won't cut it (pun intended), you should always try to take out the skelettal structure since soft tissue damage won't bother the walking dead. But shatter the bones and presto: Insta-Exorcism! Rest in peace, baby!

Thats just the thing, I don't see a Priest of Morr as one who goes around killing the enemy in a frenzy. I see a Priest of Morr as a type of spiritual guide for men in regards to teaching about the afterlife. However I also see him being completely indifferent to all matters of life and death - realising that whatever happens is because of Morr's plan. Reassuring men that they are not going to die is not his job, nor is it his job to kill others (unless protecting his men - and if so, that was Morr's will).

Because of his:
1/ closeness to the God Morr, he exudes a certain level of fear in the enemy, as he is simply following Morrs plan - and to be opposing an emissary of Morr could spell your doom.
2/ indifference to matters of life and death, and knowledge that Morr has an eternal plan, I don't believe he would let others know the plan, nor do anything about it to stop it, so adding any benefits to his own unit I think wouldn't be quite right, except against the undead.


Anyway, changed some of the fluff wording of the prayers (I wasn't ever really happy with them) and the damage spell only affects undead. Also added FPA (to represent Black Guard if you so wish) and added a Mace.

Also, changed the Priest of Mymidia spells for you...
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Offline offroadfury88

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2007, 06:35:05 AM »
However I also see him being completely indifferent to all matters of life and death - realising that whatever happens is because of Morr's plan. Reassuring men that they are not going to die is not his job, nor is it his job to kill others (unless protecting his men - and if so, that was Morr's will).

Kinda like the Pheonix Guard of the High Elves, they know the future before hand and that it does not matter if they die or if they kill enimies because it was written on the wall of Chmaber of Days.

I think you should keep the scythe because it makes him different, Sigmars get hammer, Ulric dudes get big hammers, Mannan priests get tridents so why shouldnt Morr priests get scythes?

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« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 06:40:52 AM by offroadfury88 »
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Offline Powder Monkey

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2007, 08:51:01 AM »
Warlord:

Thanks for the changes, but maybe you'd like to have another look at that mace... pay 10 pts to get a free weapon that's causing a -3 AS modifier (-2, then -1 for S4) in addition to allowing FPA...  :icon_confused:.... Well, ok, but it should probably still be at least 15 pts. On the other spectrum, maybe the damage prayer for models in base contact should be more powerful. Generic priests already cause much more damage via Soulfire! Could well be 2D6 S3 hits with no AS allowed, to have a different flavor compared to sigmars mighty smitin' D6 S5 no AS. Could represent his power to send the minions back to their graves by the dozens, but having more problems with the big baddies.

Quote
Also, changed the Priest of Mymidia spells for you...

Thanks, but,... where?  :icon_biggrin:



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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2007, 09:22:48 AM »
Quote from: Warlord
MACE
Hand Weapon. Bestows a -2 Armour Save modifier.

You could have the mace be armour piercing instead.


Quote from: offroadfury88
so why shouldnt Morr priests get scythes?

Because then they wouldn't be anything like the priest of Morr described in the fluff.
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Offline Barbosa

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2007, 12:00:15 PM »
I like the idea, the more fluff and character one can add to his leader I am all for. Good job! ::heretic::
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Offline captainguther123

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2007, 05:11:05 AM »
few things that "bugged" me( and i use the term loosely)

the hunt master... the main units he can join are archers and handgunners... yet he has not ranged weapon... WHERE IS THE LOGIC IN THAT! unless u are going to go charging your archers into the enimy rank and file troops he would be unused.

warrior priest of morr... i personally dont think that -2 armur save, for an extra 10 points was it, is really that fair. biting blade is worth 15 itself and is only -1.

warrior priest of ulric... most of it seemed alright but "wolfs call", the one where it causes a terror test is a little steep isnt it. i mean panic would be more fair wouldnt it? and maybe even remains in play so that he causes fear when he is charged.

and finally, the one that bugged me the most,

master engineer with the feild weapons specialisation got me thinking.. isnt it a bit cheep to be giving him all these extra weapons "repeater pistol, brace of pistols" and stuff for only 5 points more??? and isnt brace of pistols and repeater pistol the same thing? both have 2 shots, range 6 and both add +1 attact in combat.

however i do like the idea of having the warrior priests follow different gods. that was cool. and i have been dying to convert a witch hunter, so having different rules is awesome.

Offline Warlord

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2009, 03:33:56 AM »
Thought I would move this across in here, as it seems relevant...
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2009, 12:01:42 PM »
I remember this.  Good ideas in general.  Will have to read over it again to sort out the specifics.
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Offline jturner

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2009, 01:57:54 AM »
Maybe the witch hunter could be an upgrade from a warrior priest instead of the captain? May take care of the 'price' issue and make a little more sense, fluff-wise?
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2009, 03:35:41 AM »
This will be the first of several suggestions, in general I like where you are going with this list of options for the Empire army's characters.  I'll just insert the changes I'd make directly into the quote.

WARRIOR PRIEST OF TAAL
A Warrior Priest may worship Taal for 15 points.
Equipment: Hand Weapon and Staff
May be mounted for an additional 16 points, may be armoured with Armour of Taal (essentially bark, heavy furs, leather, splints of wood and rawhide) counts as light armour.
May not take any additional mundane weapons.

Special Rules:
PRAYERS OF TAAL
- The Birds and the Bees
Even the smallest of Taal’s subjects can band together to defend themselves
A unit anywhere on the Table (within LOS) loses D6 attacks for shooting and/or close combat, while defending themselves from the pestiferous assault of wasps, pecking sparrows, blackflies, or other of taal's pests
- Nature’s Call
A ghostly vision or sounds can be heard from the nearest wood or hill. Distracted by the haunting sight or sound, enemy formations fall apart.
An enemy unit within 12 inches (unless immune to psychology) must make an immediate move towards their nearest terrain feature (within LOS). If currently in a terrain feature, cannot move or shoot in their following turn.
- The Beast's Devotion 
A mount and its rider form a unique bond. Taal calls forth to the beast, and strengthens the animals devotion, this bond grants even heavy cavalry the mobility of Fast cavalry, and a ld reroll in the case of panic, fear or terror.  Such is the beast's devotion to their master that if they do fail their ld and are fleeing from an enemy the mount's will run a further d6 inches to ensure the safety of thier riders.
- The Beast's Sacrifice
A Monstrous steed's devotion to it's master know's no bounds and will place itself in harm's way.
A Monstrous steed within 12 inches (Friend or Foe) will automatically be hit by missiles (rather than randomizing between rider and mount). Remains in Play.
- All of Taals creatures
All creatures great and small are loved by Taal.
Warrior Priest and any unit he joins are immune to fear and terror caused by a monstrous mount, in addition mounts themselves will be reluctant to attack  the warrior priest or his unit. roll a ld test on the monster's profile if it is failed the mount will not attack, Remains in play.
- Master of Fauna
The calming voice of the Priest of Taal can calm even the most terrified of animals
A mounted fleeing friendly single model or unit within 6 inches automatically rallies.

STAFF
Staff bestows either +2S to the bearer, or +2 Armour Save. Priest must designate at the beginning of each round of close combat.
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Offline Quickbeam

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2011, 03:04:33 AM »
Sorry for the extreme threadomancy but would these rules still be viable in 8th ed?
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Offline Justnorth

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Re: UPDATED 12/12 - Characters that should be in the Army book
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2012, 09:13:34 AM »
In terms of Warrior priest special characters, Luthor Huss is incomparable.
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