Topic: Fear and Terror Shenanigans

[Clymer]

Has anyone tried leaning hard on fear and terror in a list? I had a really eye opening game this week where a unit failed a terror test from my charging griffon and caused a panic cascade through my opponent's army. He had tremendously bad luck on his rolls. But it got me thinking, what if we could do more of that, but make luck less of a factor.

Here's some ideas I had:

1. Wizard Lord with daemonology on an Imperial Griffon. Casts Gathering Darkness which is -2 Ld and no inspiring presence. Versus a leadership 8 unit, they have 58% chance of fleeing. Versus an Ld 7 unit, they have a 69% chance of fleeing. If they don't flee and they get into combat, then they must take a break test with -3 Ld (-2 from the spell, and -1 from Terror). Of course the wizard would have to win the combat, but hopefully he can manage that, especially with a combo charging unit of knights or something.

2. Combo-charging terror causers. Same as above, but have a second terror causing (another griffon, or a steam tank) unit ready to charge, in case they pass their terror test. Unlike fear, a unit can take more than one terror test per phase. And because the unit would flee before chargers are moved, this gives you a chance to redirect charges and such.

3. The Necromancer Terror Enhancer: Could be a wizard on an imperial griffon, or a wizard nearby terror causing units. This guy can throw spirit leech which is the same as Gathering Darkness, only casting value 8+ instead of 9+. He can also spiritual vortex to make that one unit -3 Ld and everyone else within 12" of the 5" template -1 Ld, which might help force additional panic tests from fleeing units running through. Bonus if you can set up the vortex template in a place where a fleeing unit would run through it on their flight.

4. The Fear Star. We have cheapish troops. Why not take them in large numbers and make them cause fear? You can do that by putting a necromancy wizard in the unit with Deathly Cabal. That also gives the unit a 6+ Ward Save, which is nice any day. If you can combo that with Spirit Leech and/or Spiritual Vortex, then there's a pretty good chance they will fail their fear test, causing them to fail charge, or suffer a -1 to hit in combat. It's a little riskier because it exposes your wizard to combat, but if you had this on a largeish unit of 30+ troops, there's a pretty good chance you'll be out-numbering the opponent to maximize the effects of fear. And if (when) you win combat, the -x Ld Spells will make it more likely the enemy unit will break and give you a chance to run them down.

Anyway, just some thoughts on what might turn out to be a hidden strength for Empire, and also checking to see if anyone has tried these or something similar.

[PowerSeries]

I did luckily eat an entire unit of glade guard and a lv 4 wizard with one failed LD test against a point blank Griffon charge.  Only reason I didn't completely lose that matchup.

It's strong and I think we can definitely try and use terror effectively.  It's better against some enemies and worse against dwarves and elves but can still happen.

[Athiuen]

If a unit engaged in combat is charged by a terror causing enemy unit and fails their test, do they immediately flee from combat?

[PowerSeries]

https://tow.whfb.app/special-rules/terror

Is it possible to get keyword links for this subforum?

 Note that if a charged unit cannot choose to Flee, it does not make this Leadership test.

[Clymer]

If a unit engaged in combat is charged by a terror causing enemy unit and fails their test, do they immediately flee from combat?

No, units engaged in combat don’t make charge reactions.

But add a terror causing unit to a combat and they’ll be at -1 Ld for their break test. And the two -2 Ld spells can be cast on a unit engaged in combat, making them -3 Ld on break tests. Even and Ld 9 unit would be more likely than not to break.

[Athiuen]

No, units engaged in combat don’t make charge reactions.

They immediately take the test:
When a unit that causes Terror declares a charge, the charge target must immediately make a Leadership test. If this test is failed, it must Flee. If this test is passed, it can declare its charge reaction normally.

If the test is passed then they must declare hold since they are in combat.
Units already engaged in combat when charged must Hold.

If the test is failed, they flee.

What happens to the unit they were engaged with? Is it just No More Foes?
In multiple combats, the shrinking of units can make it impossible for all of the units to maintain contact. In such cases, a unit that can no longer make base contact with the enemy ceases to be part of the combat at the end of the turn.

[Clymer]

Yeah, by that wording it appears they would flee from combat. It seems like the intent might be just for regular charge reactions though…

Going to do some reading… be back in a bit.

[Athiuen]

At any rate, returning to the initial premise of the thread, if you can make a unit flee even from combat, terror is very powerful and it's use should be carefully considered.

[Clymer]

Ok, it’s pretty unclear. Pursuit says, “a unit that won combat can pursue a single fleeing enemy.” So they would stay in place if a unit they were engaged with fled from combat.

There’s a strong case for saying that a unit in combat still has to take a terror test, based on the wording of terror.

I would play it the other way though, for simplicity’s sake. That part in terror rule about making the terror test before declaring a charge reaction makes it seem like it’s intended to be part of the charge reaction sequence. And there doesn’t seem to be any part of the rules that anticipates a unit fleeing from combat except by losing combat. Panic rules explicitly say you don’t panic out of combat, for example.

Anyway, this is one you could definitely split hairs on, but I think the more straightforward approach is to not take the test if you’re in combat. Terror will still have an effect, so it’s not like you can totally avoid it just by getting stuck in.

[Athiuen]

Certainly I'd prefer your take on it for simplicity's sake. It's how I've been playing it. I just thought this was an opportunity to bring it up.

[Clymer]

Yeah, would be a good one for an FAQ

[PowerSeries]

A unit in combat may not choose to flee as a charge reaction.

Therefore a terror test is not required.  Last line of the terror rules:

Note that if a charged unit cannot choose to Flee, it does not make this Leadership test.

[Clymer]

There it is, thanks!

[Athiuen]

That doesn't answer it.
It may not choose to flee.
It takes the terror test immediately and flees before it can declare a reaction and choose anything.

[PowerSeries]

Butoh Sigmar riding a mule, please don't let this turn into another "counts as charging" scenario.

You can't use the fact they are making a terror check to decide whether or not they need to make a terror check. 

Suppose it said "Note that if a charged unit can choose to Stamd and shoot, it does not make this Leadership test."


Would you say: oh no but if it flees due to this terror check, it can't stand and shoot?

[commandant]

But if the unit counts-as-choosing rather than choosing then that choice might not be a choice it could choose to count as choosing.

[Athiuen]

I mean the order of operation is clear.
Declare a charge and Immediately test for terror and resolve.
Then, once all charges are declared, declare charge reactions.

So it's quite simple. A unit of spearmen is engaged in combat with orcs.
It's the orcs turn and their big boss on a wyvern declares a charge against the spearmen.
If the spearmen fail their terror check, they flee.
If they pass the check, they must (when the time for reaction declarations arrives) declare hold since they are in combat.

[Minsc]

Pg 120: Units engaged in combat when charged must hold.

(Pg 120: Any unit that is not already engaged in combat may Flee as a charge reaction.)

Pg 179: If a charged unit cannot choose to Flee, it does not make this Ld test.

Failed Terror forces you to Flee as a reaction, but you aren't allowed to Flee when you're already engaged in combat.

I can see your point though, in earlier editions Terror was basically a Panic-check, and units in combat are immune to panic. They changed the wording for Terrortests in TOW, and now it's not as clearcut.

[Athiuen]

Yeah.

I'm still playing it as a unit in combat doesn't flee.
I've just heard others argue that you do.

I think the step I'm missing here is that while you immediately take the test, failing just means that you have to declare flee as a reaction later when the time comes for reactions. Flee isn't a move, it's a reaction. So, since you're in combat already you cannot flee, only hold.