Topic: Dawn Bringers - Update: Fire Raptor images

[Aldaris]

Probably the heart of my issue is that bikes are so stupid in terms of concept to me!

Compared to what? Say, Stompas?
 
Attack bikes of some description are a staple of many, many science fiction settings.

[Sig]

Terminators in my local meta are actually more vulnerable to shooting now with the increased use of plasma. I know I pack 5 combiplas on my pod Sternguard alone. In combat though yeah, super nasty. It's just that most lists are shooting based and termies won't see combat after a deep strike.

They should have made a rule that if they deathwing assault on turn 2 instead of turn 1, they could assault after deep striking.

[Darknight]

Black Knights or Deathwing?

[Crimsonsphinx]

Everyone seems to be loaded out with plasma in my local area as well.  Terminators, even stormshield ones, are quite vulnerable to massed plasma.  You only need to reduce the terminator squad down to three models or less and it is pretty useless. 

Deathwing assault works best combined with Belial jumping down on turn 1.  Everyone else wants to then jump down on turn 2.  So you need to keep his squad alive, preferably making it a large size!

[phillyt]

I think the new FAQ requires they all arrive on the same turn.

[Crimsonsphinx]

I think the new FAQ requires they all arrive on the same turn.

What really?  That makes Belials homer completely pointless then doesn't it?     I suppose you could walk him on, but again, why would you?

[phillyt]

I'm not sure.  I haven't played a single game.  I would have to reread it but on first glance it almost seemed like that is what it said.

[Crimsonsphinx]

I'm not sure.  I haven't played a single game.  I would have to reread it but on first glance it almost seemed like that is what it said.

My reading was you decide on a unit by unit basis if you want them to come down on turn 1 or turn 2.  If that is wrong, then an all deathwing army is completely unusable.  Great eh? 

[phillyt]

You read it that way in the faq?

They might be saying that they MUST arrive on turn 1 or 2 and can't just wait to roll their way in after.

[Crimsonsphinx]

I have just read the FAQ now for dark angels and I can't see any mention of the deathwing assault rule being clarified! 

[phillyt]

LOL I can't find it either!  WHat the hell was I thinking?!?

[Crimsonsphinx]

I dunno Philly    Stop trying to hamstring your own army! 

Its certainly my reading that you can choose to come down on turn 1 or two.  Surely you must be able to drop Belials unit on turn 1, then everyone else on turn 2, or what is the point in his homer, unless it works like the daemons icons now do?

[phillyt]

No you are right, but I though I saw a change in the faq.  Of course, if there had been, it would have updated to my iPad army book anyway.

[Mogsam]

How many terminators are needed for 1000 points of drop down doom? There's a 1000 point each doubles tournament soonish and the idea of half guard horde and half deep strike terminators sounds good.

[Sig]

My reading was you choose which units make the assault, and which turn it comes down, but there is only one assault, like drop pods. The rest can come on as normal, you don't have to use the rule. So Belial could drop turn one with some boys, then have others come on whenever they pass their reserve rolls. The don't use the term Drop Pod Assault in the plural in the book.

[phillyt]

How many terminators are needed for 1000 points of drop down doom? There's a 1000 point each doubles tournament soonish and the idea of half guard horde and half deep strike terminators sounds good.

Fully kited out terminator deathwing squad of 5 is 245.  A knight squad is 235 for 5.  You could run 3 sets of 5 plus belial who is 190 and then bump a couple of other terminators to the units to get to 1000.

[Crimsonsphinx]

How many terminators are needed for 1000 points of drop down doom? There's a 1000 point each doubles tournament soonish and the idea of half guard horde and half deep strike terminators sounds good.

Fully kited out terminator deathwing squad of 5 is 245.  A knight squad is 235 for 5.  You could run 3 sets of 5 plus belial who is 190 and then bump a couple of other terminators to the units to get to 1000.

Which sounds a terrible army IMO.  What gear have those terminators got Philly?  Not a great deal!  You want a cyclone on every squad for a start!

[phillyt]

That would be a chain fist and an assault cannon in each unit.

I am not a fan of cyclones.  I much prefer assault cannons or plasma cannons.

[Crimsonsphinx]

That would be a chain fist and an assault cannon in each unit.

I am not a fan of cyclones.  I much prefer assault cannons or plasma cannons.

Cyclones can go on TH/SS terminators though which is great.  I would always give the sgt either TH/SS or LCs as well, since power swords are substandard weapons. 
Plasma cannon seems interesting although I haven't tested it myself.  In games I have played cyclones tend to be a lot better than assault cannons for me.

[phillyt]

Assault cannons are far more likely to damage high AV models.

[phillyt]

Also, if you want thunder hammers and shields, use Knights.  They are better in every way.  There is nothing in the game that can beat them in melee.

[Crimsonsphinx]

You know assault cannons rending doesn't give them AP2 for vehicle destruction right Philly? 

I thought the Deathwing knights were pretty poor in all honesty.  For one round of combat they become good.  If the enemy have multiple TH/SS units, they are doomed. 

[phillyt]

If you are fighting another thunderhammer/shield army, then yeah, but that is true for the TH/SS army too.

Against any other army, Knights are ace.  WS5, full I4 with their S5, fearless, T5, hammer of wrath, and the ability to annihilate a unit in a single round using their S10 AP2 A3 on the charge manuaver.  They are better than any other armies TH/SH unit.  If you think you will face too many TH/SS, you can just take normal deathwing with the same set up. 

YEah, but it is easy to get a penetrating hit with assault cannons.  Cyclones are just krak missles.  I field piles of those if I really need them, I don't need to waste my heavy terminator on it.  I can't spam assault cannons in any other place.

[Crimsonsphinx]

If you are fighting another thunderhammer/shield army, then yeah, but that is true for the TH/SS army too.

Against any other army, Knights are ace.  WS5, full I4 with their S5, fearless, T5, hammer of wrath, and the ability to annihilate a unit in a single round using their S10 AP2 A3 on the charge manuaver.  They are better than any other armies TH/SH unit.  If you think you will face too many TH/SS, you can just take normal deathwing with the same set up. 

YEah, but it is easy to get a penetrating hit with assault cannons.  Cyclones are just krak missles.  I field piles of those if I really need them, I don't need to waste my heavy terminator on it.  I can't spam assault cannons in any other place.

You can't spam assault cannons on terminators when the squad costs nearly 250 points for five guys!  Landspeeders, Razorbacks and even Landraiders work out better value if all you want is an assault cannon    The way I look at it is the Cyclone is a bonus weapon for my terminators, they still get to keep and use their other weapons.  Having an assault cannon prevents stormshield or lightning claw use on that model, however it is a good model to put the mandatory chainfist on.  That said, the DV terminator model with assault cannon has power fist not a chainfist.   

I thought the knights mace things were power mauls, therefore unable to go through power armour?  Well apart from Chaos power armour.  If all you play are marines, I would have thought the Knights were worse than Terminators.  I  thought they were s6 and only t5 if they have that base to base formation, which you will not get if you charge, due to rules on charging.  I don't know about you, but in my gaming environment, there are far too many plasma cannons around to be sitting in base to base contact with an expensive unit like Knights!

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they are bad [no matter how that reads] I just don't see much mileage in them vs marine armies, of which there are many.

[phillyt]

You can't spam assault cannons on terminators when the squad costs nearly 250 points for five guys!  Landspeeders, Razorbacks and even Landraiders work out better value if all you want is an assault cannon    The way I look at it is the Cyclone is a bonus weapon for my terminators, they still get to keep and use their other weapons.  Having an assault cannon prevents stormshield or lightning claw use on that model, however it is a good model to put the mandatory chainfist on.  That said, the DV terminator model with assault cannon has power fist not a chainfist.   

Those other sources of assault cannons are far to soft.  Nestled in a terminator unit, the assault cannon is very safe.  And the chainfist being on a different model is fine with me, I don't really like them that much.  What other than landraiders do you need it for anyway?  And lightning claws are terrible.

Also, how does the cyclone count as a free weapon?  The assault cannon and cyclone both take the slot of the storm bolter.

I thought the knights mace things were power mauls, therefore unable to go through power armour?  Well apart from Chaos power armour.  If all you play are marines, I would have thought the Knights were worse than Terminators.  I  thought they were s6 and only t5 if they have that base to base formation, which you will not get if you charge, due to rules on charging.  I don't know about you, but in my gaming environment, there are far too many plasma cannons around to be sitting in base to base contact with an expensive unit like Knights!

Let them pound away on my storm shields, that is fine with me.  And you can still keep them in BtB without trouble.  And they only need to touch two other models.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they are bad [no matter how that reads] I just don't see much mileage in them vs marine armies, of which there are many.

They will consume any marine unit in their one big round, then be able to drag any other marine unit down through their champion model.  Most units only get into combat with two units per game anyway.  If they obliterate one unit and manage to tie up and wear down a second, they have done their job for me.