home

Author Topic: 2500 Point Starter list.  (Read 1851 times)

Offline Brother Kardel

  • Members
  • Posts: 3
2500 Point Starter list.
« on: January 30, 2015, 12:38:57 AM »
Hey folks, I recently got back into Fantasy (and these forums actually  :biggriin:) and I had some questions for a list I've built for my mates at my local hobby store.

Right then here's the list. 2500 Melee based Empire from the proud County of Ostland! The beardest kind!

Lords:

Battle Wizard Lord
Lvl 4 Lore of Metal Barded Warhorse
224 points

Grand Master
Shield
Magic Items: Enchanted Shield, Biting Blade, Dawnstone
199 points

Heroes:

Battle Wizrad
Lvl 2 Lore of Life
100 points

Warrior Priest
Additional Hand weapon
Magic Items: Armor of Meteoric Iron, Ruby Ring of Ruin
142 points

Core:

Spear men 40  Parent unit
Full command
Crossbowmen 20 Detachment
Swordsmen 20  Detachment
550 points

Knightly Order 10
Lance and Shield
Full Command
250 points

Inner Circle Knights 10
Lance and Shield
Full command
Steel Standard
315 points

Special:

Demigryph Knights 3
174 points

Great Cannon
120 points

Great swords 20
Full command
Razor Standard
Halberdiers 10 Detachment
Swordsmen 10 Detachment
425 points

Total: 2499 points


Ok so the idea here is to have the spear men and great swords advance with their detachments covering them. They act as the anvil of the force.

The knights act as the hammer, demigryphs as duel hammer/ war machine hunters

Wizard lord with normal knights (I have no idea if I should give him items, seeing as how he's gonna be used for buffs)

Grand Master with the Inner Circle (May give him a better sword, not sure)

Warrior Priest with Great swords

Harry potter equivalent of a Battle Wizard with the spear men (Same as Wizard Lord, not sure what to give him)

The Great cannon just cuss......well.....its a cannon.

Right then! Any kind of criticism would be great, I really don't mind. I basically need help here since its been a good 2-3 years since I clashed swords in fantasy.

Also, my hobby place has lizard men, chaos, orcs, dark elves, wood elves, skaven, and another empire army concerning players.

Again, any and all help and critic would be great. Thanks again!
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 12:42:37 AM by Brother Kardel »

Offline Jomppexx

  • Members
  • Posts: 830
Re: 2500 Point Starter list.
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2015, 07:37:58 AM »
Your grandmaster can't take a shield and an enchanted shield, besides the enchanted shield is pointless as the grandmaster has Fullplate armour (4+ save) and a barded warhorse (+2 to armour save for 2+ armour save, armour save can't be better than 1+). Dawnstone is a good choice, still I might take a more expensive weapon and a ward save instead of taking the dawnstone.
Definitely give your GM a better tool to smack fools with, biting blade is pretty crap when combined with lore of metal, as you can get armour piercing with Enchanted Blades of Aiban.

Give your level 2 wizard a dispel scroll, if your level 4 fails to dispel and can then no longer dispel you can still use the scroll.
Metal is an odd lore choice, I have had some success with it (enemy characters with a good armour save and bad/no ward saves get destroyed, same with any knights). Greatswords really enjoy having Glittering Scales and Enchanted Blades on them.
Lore of Life is a good lore, preferable on a high level wizard as the casting totals are somewhat high.
But I'm going to keep praising lore of light, Speed of Light is incredible on any Empire unit, Banishment is great if you take 2 light wizards (2d6 S5 hits, enemies have to reroll successful ward saves, 3D6 hits versus Daemons and Undead) and Pha's Protection is nothing to complain about.

Your Priest has too many items, magic item points limit for all heroes is 50 and armour of meteoric iron costs 50.
If you bring AoMI on a priest I would rather take a great weapon than an additional hand weapon, 2 attacks with S6 is better than 3 attacks with S4.

Spearmen, of course, aren't the most ideal state troops if you want to deal damage, they are the best troops if you just want a maximum amount of bodies. Halberdiers are preferred due to S4 from halberds.
A detachment of 20 crossbowmen  :icon_eek: how will you deploy them? They can only shoot from 2 ranks as they don't have volley fire, so maybe 10 would be better to deploy 5 wide in 2 ranks?
I don't understand why you bring a detachment of swordsmen, usually the role of detachments is to strike in to the flank of the enemy unit that charges their parent unit and then bring the pain. Swordsmen are the opposite of this, I believe they deal the least damage, but they have the best survivability.

Knights are good. I would maybe use the unit of normal knights with just a musician and 5 knights and use them to redirect.
With the saved points take more Inner Circle Knights, these guys are so much better only for 3 points. In my opinion Lance + Shield is the way to go as you get to swing with S6 on the charge and keep your 1+ in close combat. Steel Standard is good, but expensive, maybe bring banner of swiftness instead.

Edit: Was in a hurry, continued my post here

Demigryphs could use a musician and maybe a fourth model, but you 3 are just fine too.

If something can, a cannon can, contrary to bayonets, you can even sit on them. (Isn't this about how it goes?)

Greatsword unit is too small, bring 30+ and play them in a horde. Again, try to take a magic flag that speeds up the unit as they are only M4.
I've never played detachments properly, so do as you will with those.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 09:47:40 AM by Jomppexx »
"Sigmar is like a barbaric, warrior Jesus, and only appeared to be a mortal man."
Highlights :
8/2014 : Grandmaster slew a Chaos Lord in a challenge

Offline General Silk

  • Members
  • Posts: 12
Re: 2500 Point Starter list.
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2015, 08:16:20 AM »
Good day sir. And welcome back into the fun !


Act 1
First point I would like to mention - in a 2500 points battle I would strongly advice Battle Standard Bearer - it's The Empires strongest moralebuff and I can't stress it enough that you will need it amongst your infantry!

Act 2

Lore of Metal can be good - and since it's on a lvl 4 you will indeed have a high chance to get the good stuff. So I won't complain at all here. It's the signature spell I don't really chip much faith into - but with 4 chances to get the really good 'uns - I think you will manage.


Act 3

Very odd Greatsword unit you have here. And I would have to advice you to either smash it apart and put the points somewhere else - or put more points into 'em. 20 Greatswords wont hold for long against a strong enemy unit. And the detatchments will shatter before they can do any good with the low numbers of 10. - We are looking at a 3 unit batch which might shatter before any "prime force" of the enemy. And with movement 4 you wont always be able to choose your battles with 'em.
minumum 30-35 Greatswords and you would have a great unit. With about 15 det of hilbardiers on each side - or why not handgunners/crossbowmen since they could stand and shoot if the enemy charges you - altho I would hide them behind on each side. It really depends on what you want this unit to do - but as it looks like to me now. I believe you won't be happy about the results if you test play with those numbers.

The rest of your choices are more than up to the task for their tasks.
Maybe if you got a steam tank, I would probably sacrifice the greatswords and their detatchments to get one.
And if you did this - the extra points would be useful on anything you like to "beef up" - I would probably add extra inner circle as our Brother adviser before me mentioned. 
 


 


Offline undivided.capital

  • Members
  • Posts: 151
Re: 2500 Point Starter list.
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2015, 03:13:51 PM »
Just wanted to reiterate, dont leave home without your BSB!
Thanks,

Sam Taylor

Offline CarolineWellwater

  • Members
  • Posts: 396
Re: 2500 Point Starter list.
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2015, 05:52:25 AM »
 ((Brother Kardel,

Hopefully I won't repeat something anyone else has already said.  I'm feeling lazy today, so no story-review for you.

1) So… a level 4 Metal wizard.  Um… is he a Heavy Metal wizard ^_^  Yeah… me and my dumb sense of  humor.  Anyway, usually wizards are on foot, or on Pegasus.  I tend to have mine on horseback though, as well.  Keep in mind, it does make him a bit easier to target, and doesn't let him hide quite as easily.

2) With the 1+ Armor Save your Grandmaster already has, he doesn't need the Enchanted Shield.  Also, I've never really been impressed with the Biting Blade.  If you want the -2 to Armor Save, just pony up the points, and get the Sword of Might.

2-A) Though, with the Grandmaster, he can use the Runefang to dangerous effect.  Especially if you get him some ability to gain additional attacks, or re-roll to-hits.  For example, Beasts has "Savage Beast of Horrors", which would give the Grandmaster some 7 attacks to Runefang with.  That's some serious hurt he's putting down.  Speaking of Beasts…

3) Life, to me, is a defensive Lore.  It has one of the weakest signature spells in the game, and you basically have to use Throne of Vines to empower all of its spells.  Also, in order to really use Life, you have to be Level 4, otherwise, you have zero spells to use the Throne on.  As such, a Level 2 Life wizard is not one I'd recommend.

3-A) Given your Knight heavy army, I'd suggest a Beasts wizard instead.  Beasts has one of the best signature spells in the game, and the rest of its spells are aggressive, and offer a lot of punch to your army.  With the high concentration of characters you have in one of your units, Beasts also offers some great-character buffing spells.

4) For the Warrior Priest, you have too many points in magic items.  The 50-point armor is about all he can afford.

5) Spearmen tend to be one of the weakest units in the Empire army… as they lack both the punch of a stronger weapon, and the parry save that Swordsmen get.

5-A) Mind you, I do use Spearmen, as I already have the models, and they're already painted.  If you use Spearmen, Enchanted Blades of Albian is a great buff for them.  Fire's Flaming Sword of RUIN is also a sold buff for Spearmen.  Overall, though, don't expect much from them.  They're humans… with spears.

6) You have 30 Halberds in two detachments.  Instead of making Spearmen, I'd suggest making more Halberds, and running a super-sized block of 40+ Halberds.  Halberds offer a better bite, and they're fairly cheap, so you can get a huge block of them without spending too many points.  The 40+ size lets you either deploy them Horde or Steadfast, depending on how the battle dictates.

6-A)  No shields for the Halberds.  Save the points.  There are enough armor penalizing or medium-strength attacks out there, that'll punch right through the shield.  Better to just save the points, and get more bodies.

6-B) Be advised that detachments can be more dangerous than they're worth.  If they break, or are annihilated… it'll force a Panic test on their parent company.  Also, while the detachment can support the parent (via the counter-charge / stand-and-shoot), the Parent cannot do the same.

6-B-1) It is usually just better to field all independent companies, rather than parent-and-detachments

6-C) Empire Missile troops are fairly weak, as they have BS 3, and zero other options.  In comparison, Dwarven Crossbow troops can at least get armor, so they can survive a turn or two of melee.  Our crossbows… just die in melee.

6-C-1) Still, of the missile troops we get, Crossbows are probably the best.  (Again, though, that's akin to saying 'well, of all the pathetic running backs we have, he's the best'… hardly a glowing recommendation.)  Keep in mind that you set up about 20 - 24" away from your opponent… so you can back-deploy your Crossbows, to take maximum useage of that 30" range.

6-C-2) Overall, though, Archers are usually a better way to go.  All weapons can now wound all Toughnesses, so the low-strength of the Bow really doesn't matter.  It can still wound a Toughness 10 creature.  Archers are cheaper; and Archers can Skirmish, so they can stay dynamic with the battle.

7) I like the Steel Standard.  The +1" of movement gives you basically a 15" threat radius.   (8" + 3k2 = 15" threat radius).  And the ability to re-roll "1" means you'll reliably get at least 7" on 3k2 for all your charge, flee, and pursuit moves.

7-A) Still, if you need to save a few points, the Movement Banner works in a pinch too.

8) Your Demigryphs should at least have a musician.  The ability to Swift Reform is freaking huge, and it's +1 to LD to rally is also very nice.

8-A) I'd suggest a Champion as well for the Demigryphs.  It is a fairly cheap upgrade, and increases the density of your attacks.

9) Your Greatswords are in an awkward tween-sized unit.  And well all remember how awkward our tween years were.  I'd suggest at least upsizing them to 30.  That way they can Horde.  Greatswords don't need to Steadfast, as they have "Stubborn".

9-A) Keep in mind that our Greatswords, are very dull when compared to other Army's elite troop options.

9-B) While I like aggressive, combat-bonus, banners… for the Greatswords, they really don't need the Razor Banner.  They're already inflicting -2 to enemy Armor Saves.   I'd suggest, instead, either the War Banner or the Terror Banner.  +1 to CR is always nice, and Terror adds Psychology to the mix.

9-A-1) See above about the detachments.

10) I just noticed you didn't bring a BSB.  Find the points, and get one.  Our LD is… mediocre… on a good day.  You need the BSB.  It lets you re-roll ALL LD tests.  Fear… Panic… Rally… Swift Reform… Restraint… Terror… etc.  It is a huge bonus, and one the Empire greatly needs more than most other armies.

Anyway, just some thoughts. ))

Offline Jomppexx

  • Members
  • Posts: 830
Re: 2500 Point Starter list.
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2015, 08:36:21 AM »
I actually would not take a champion for the demigryphs.
Or you can take it, but then take at least 4 demigryphs so you have 1 rank and 1 model (champion) can afford to die and you will still have steadfast against daemon princes and other lone characters.
Besides, it just gives a place for characters to hide against your maximum amount of attacks.
"Sigmar is like a barbaric, warrior Jesus, and only appeared to be a mortal man."
Highlights :
8/2014 : Grandmaster slew a Chaos Lord in a challenge

Offline Brother Kardel

  • Members
  • Posts: 3
Re: 2500 Point Starter list.
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2015, 05:17:36 AM »
Thanks again for the replies guys! For a second there I thought I wouldn't get any. But it's all good!

So I looked at the posts and I re-looked at my list.

I'm taking the lore of metal due to the fact that my wizard lord will be with regular knights, I know knights are just humans in shiny armor but I think the bonus's would be nice. The inner circle knights are required for the master anyway,but its not really an incentive cuss who wouldn't take these guys?

Which hero should I remove for a BSB? The Priest or Wizard? I can't really fit the points at the moment.

Here's my list that I re did though without the BSB, I'm just up against a wall here.

(And yes Caroline, he is heavy metal wizard, literally and figuratively.)

Lords:

Battle Wizard Lord
Lvl 4 Lore of Metal Barded Warhorse
224 points

Grand Master
Magic Items: Sword of Might, Dawnstone
Shield
204 points

(The Runefang does look very nice, I'd have to get rid of some thing though. I done want my lords and hero's to die knowing I lost a lot of points,Empire characters compared to others are not very good)

Heroes:

Battle Wizard
Lvl 2 Lore of Light
Dispel Scroll
125 points

Warrior Priest
Great Weapon
Magic Items: Armor of Meteoric Iron
120 points

Core:

Spear men 40  Parent unit
Full command
Crossbowmen 10 Detachment
Halberdiers 15  Detachment
410 points

(I'm taking the spearmen because of their so cheap, they will die I know, so I want them to tarpit my foe so that both the detachments and the knights swing around and hit them.)

Knightly Order 10
Lance and Shield
Full Command
250 points

Inner Circle Knights 10
Lance and Shield
Full command
Steel Standard
315 points

Special:

Demigryph Knights 3
174 points

Great Cannon
120 points

Great swords 30
Full command
War Banner
Halberdiers 15 Detachment
Swordsmen 10 Detachment
555 points

(Swordsmen are a nice unit due to the shields and their WS, plus I already have the models for them, but I think they worked out best with the great words than the spearmen.)

Total: 2497 points


So I still have some issues, I need to re think on my range options but yeah this is what I got so far. I want to try out the detachment rule, but maybe I should just run one in each unit? Maybe that way I can ease up on costs.

Again, any and all criticism would be awesome, I appreciate you guys helping me out on this.

Thanks again!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 05:22:50 AM by Brother Kardel »

Offline Brother Kardel

  • Members
  • Posts: 3
Re: 2500 Point Starter list.
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2015, 05:19:08 AM »
Also, sorry to double post, messed up on the modifying tab. Would any of those Wizard chariots be a good idea? Or perhaps maybe some more artillery to put more range in my army? If its really good than I will take things out.

Thanks again guys!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 05:21:13 AM by Brother Kardel »

Offline General Silk

  • Members
  • Posts: 12
Re: 2500 Point Starter list.
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2015, 05:56:11 AM »
Act 1

If you have to sacrifice something I personally would take out the grand master - he's in quite a bad shape within only 10 ICK knights anyway imhp.
Don't overestimate knight survivability - there are tons of things to pit them low. And with no BSB, you will take a risk having panic roam within your army. Personally I would put the whiz among the greatswords.

Act 2

With so much points loose from the grandmaster - you will afford capn bsb and then some extra knights.
Thing is - what will do most dmg in the long run? - A fat unit of infantry with hatred - or a grandmaster with his attacks?
Sure - the grandmaster may beat an enemy combat hero/lord - but then - Empire isn't about winning in a straight up fight.

Act 3

You got lots of infantry - but no great hammer. Demigryphs would've been a very nice HAMMER OF DOOM - if you had about 4-5 of them (so they can survive taking some hits back and still deal shittons of pain) - But I know that box isn't the cheapest to buy...

Maybe if you got the models - crash and burn the spearmen, add even more greatsword -about ten of 'em.
And buff the knights with more models or take a cannon with the spare points.

Act 4

Right now your army does lack commitment into a single purpose.
Think of what you might face - and how your units will fare when taking losses.. 10 knights wont enjoy losses. - 13 will manage alot better! Nudging the risk of panic check a little more -and that could mean a lot for you!

Tarpit is nice - but where is your hammer of doom? - Don't expect your knights and demigryphs to be totally ignored - in fact, expect them to face re-directors and something much scarier! - Who are you gonna call? WARMACHINES! - they are a key tool for success - only time I wouldn't pick more than 2 cannons or 1 cannon+1 helblaster - would be if I had a steam tank - multi tasking enemy rapist of metal doom. - That's heavy metal for real!


Ending

Now - I won't say it's a bad list you've got there. It does have potential on it's own right now.
But I can't stress enough - find a spot for that BSB captain- how can you tarpit if your men runs away?
Would destroy the spearmens/greatswords purpose don't you think?
If you only get this dude - somehow. You should be quite fine.

If not sacrificing grand master - maybe a knight unit - since demigryphs could fill that place quite well too!
And if you get extra points to spare - try hit nr 13 for those ICK - to decrease risk of panic checks. - You might be unlucky you know.
No matter how you end up in your list - you do have dmg potential with those knights - and demis. To use with those tarpits - but that hammer might take a little dmg.. I don't think the opponent would ignore them. If anything - the opponent might ignore your tarpits and just straight up attack your hammers. I certainly would do that. But then again - you got 3 decent hammers - I honestly don't think he could end them all before your tarpits hit home. take's couple of turns after all to wipe a knight unit.
Anyhow, good luck in that game of yours !


Offline CarolineWellwater

  • Members
  • Posts: 396
Re: 2500 Point Starter list.
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2015, 01:59:36 PM »
(( Brother Kardel,

Just some more thoughts.  Hopefully I won't echo anything already said.

1) Metal is a pretty good lore, and does offer a lot for a Level 4 Wizard.  Still, something to think about.  Metal has some decent ranges for its spells.  You might better be served by having your Metal wizard hiding in one of your archer units, and just buffing the knights from afar.

2) Dawnstone is a solid, when coupled with a 1+ Armor Save.  Be advised, though, your Grandmaster lacks a Ward Save… and there are a decent number of things out there which completely cancel normal Armor Saves.

3) Light is a good Lore… but on the more difficult side for a Level 2 to cast.  Mind you I tend to 2d6 + Level cast most of my spells… so my Casting Rolls tend to be an 8 - 9. 

3-A) Anyway, with the number of Knights you have, I still feel Beasts might be a good back-up lore.  It's basic spell increases both offensive and defensive capabilities of your units, while the rest of the spells offer good, cheap, bonuses elsewhere.

4) You really do need a Battle Standard Bearer.

4-A) You have two units of medium-sized knights.  With your Grandmaster, you'd be better served with a Knight Bus (15+ sized unit).  I'd suggest dropping the 10 Knights, and upsizing the 10 Inner Circle Knights to at least 12, preferably 15.  That way you'll have some weight behind your Knight charges, be a better target for unit buffs, and still be able to survive a couple of wounds to the knights without detrimentally effecting their combat ability.

4-A-1) The points you save would allow you to get a BSB, overall greatly enhancing your Leadership capabilities.

4-A-1-a) I'd suggest putting the BSB in with your Spearmen.  It'll empower up their Leadership, and offer a couple of more effective attacks to the spears.

4-A-2) You could also save some points by swapping the Steel Standard for the Banner of Swiftness.  You lose the ability to re-roll movement rolls of "1"s; however, you still add 1" of movement to the Inner Circle Knights, at about 1/2 the price.

5) Spearmen aren't terribly impressive.  And, while they are cheap, Swordsmen do survive better than Spearmen.

5-A) Your detachments are still dangerously small.  Small Detachments are highly mobile… but, when they get wiped out, it'll cause a Panic test in your Parent unit.  Savvy opponents will go for the smaller fish, in order to force the Empire's mediocre Leadership to come into play.

5-A-1) If you do want to keep the smaller units, instead of Detachments, just field your smaller units as individual companies.  You still run the risk of Panic; however, you now have more units to field during deployment (potentially giving you the edge on rolling to see who goes first), and more options to counter-deploy to enemy deployments.

5-A-2) Or, group up your detachments.  One detachment of 30 Halberds is considerably better than two detachments of 15.  Also, remember, in order to cause Disruption (removing enemy CR bonus from Ranks), you need to have at least a 10 Unit Strength.  30 Halberds gives you a Unit Strength of 30.

5-A-3) 10 Swordsmen aren't going to do you much.  They're just too small to have weight of numbers at 2500 points, and too easy to brush aside by spells or charges.  They can't even reliably protect your artillery for a turn or two, as they're just too small.  They're considerably more of a detriment than a bonus.

5-A-3-a) Instead, group them into your Spear unit.  That is, drop them as Swordsmen, and add 10 Soldiers to your Spearmen.  Yes, they'll have "swords"… so what.  They're in the Spearman block.  They're Spearmen.  It's no different than "unit fillers".  Just take them out first when the Spears suffer casualties.  Anyway, that'll plus up your Spearmen to 50 strong… which now becomes a pretty solid anvil unit able to weather a lot of damage.

5-A-3-b) Or, barring that, just drop them entirely.  Dropping them entirely frees up a goodly chunk of points for your Battle Standard Bearer.

6) I still would suggest at least a musician for the Demigryphs.  If nothing else, the ability to Swift Reform saves them precious movement that they'd otherwise be used up making a wheel movement or a standard reform movement.

Anyway, just some thoughts. ))

Offline undivided.capital

  • Members
  • Posts: 151
Re: 2500 Point Starter list.
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2015, 03:45:06 AM »
Hey, it looks like you have a fun list! (I have fun whenever I can throw some greatswords and knights on the field together!)

I just want to talk a bit of philosophy. It is proven as an Empire player that it is good to run with 3 main components. This is not a must but it can make list building much easier if you think in terms of "what are my components(hammers and anvils) and what are my support(hard counters, buffs, redirectors)

Right now I'd say your list has 5 components, these being: Spearmen, Knight, ICK, Greatswords, Demigryph. You may want to focus more as others have said. Smash up some units for the points and bring 3 or 4 strong components with sufficient support I would say.

Also, I have had good success using my 3 Demis with a group of 5 Knights as one component together. I find Demis have a hard time with combat res with no banner but 5 knights with a banner in the flank can work wonders.

Hope it all works out!
Thanks,

Sam Taylor