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Author Topic: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.  (Read 16874 times)

Offline Folken

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Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« on: December 05, 2008, 08:08:29 PM »
Hey guys,
This is purely for fun, how would you apply the rules for weapons not currently covered by warhammer fantasy rules that would be of interest.  Particularly how you would apply Eastern weaponry.

Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2008, 09:17:57 PM »

I am trying to think of a weapon that does not fall within the existing catagories of hand weapon, two handed weapon, spear, etc. but not coming up with anything.

Staff sling? Atlatl?

edit: Uurga/lasso?



« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 09:23:06 PM by ZeroTwentythree »

Offline Folken

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2008, 09:35:52 PM »
Example sai as a defensive weapon forcing an opponent to lose an attack.

Offline Pyromanen

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2008, 09:38:47 PM »
Well, the katana and the numerous other similar swords would need to be different from hand weapons or great weapons, because they were and still are much different from any kind of sword used in european style warfare.
Unlike european style swords of the same periods the katana was actually sharp, so it was unnecesary to chop with it like you would with a longsword.
The way to use a katana would be to land a flowing blow, keep the edge moving so you let the blade cut instead of forcing it with brute strength alone.

No idea how to convert it into rule terms though ^^
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Offline Lord Etharion

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2008, 09:39:41 PM »
Yeah. Spears, swords, halberds, its all pretty much the same.

Except for katanas, which clearly are completely different and way better than any other kind of two-handed sword, and thus get 2+ strength and strike in initiative order. No, wait, that's not strong enough to be accurate, make it +3 strength and ASF.

Example sai as a defensive weapon forcing an opponent to lose an attack.

It's a dagger. A blunt dagger. You seriously want to give it powers previously only retained by magical shields?

EDIT: I cannot believe that in the time it took me to write one sarcastic post I got not one but two people writing posts that fall into the fallacy that any weapon is better if its Japanese.  :icon_rolleyes:
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Offline Pyromanen

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2008, 09:49:39 PM »
A katana isnt good because it's japanese, it's good because it's made with superior techniques to what you'd use elsewhere.
The thing about the katana is that the japanese only developed the techniques to make them because they only have quite poor steel to make swords with.

A samurai with a european sword would be utter crap, because he would use it in the wrong way, same as a european soldier with a katana, without extensive retraining.
The two kinds of swords are so different that they cant be treated as the same.

And a final thing, the katana was not a great weapon, more of a hand and a half weapon :P
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Offline Folken

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2008, 09:51:11 PM »
Any weapon is better if it is dwarven.  :wink:

Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2008, 09:53:28 PM »
Shh dont tell anyone, but European swords were made with folded steel, to an increadibly high standard, equal to that of any katana
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Offline Pyromanen

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2008, 09:55:39 PM »
Depends on the period, and bragging about steel as good as the japanese steel is shooting yourself in the foot.
Japanese steel sucked worse than a goblin alone in a regiment of high elves.
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Offline Lord Etharion

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2008, 09:58:14 PM »
A katana isnt good because it's japanese, it's good because it's made with superior techniques to what you'd use elsewhere.
The thing about the katana is that the japanese only developed the techniques to make them because they only have quite poor steel to make swords with.

And thus, europeans, with better quality steel, were thereby incapable of making quality swords?

A samurai with a european sword would be utter crap, because he would use it in the wrong way, same as a european soldier with a katana, without extensive retraining.

This is relevant to the actual weapon how?

The two kinds of swords are so different that they cant be treated as the same.

This is the game that treats a dwarven axe exactly the same as a elven sword exactly the same as a goblin's wooden club, and yet katanas sooooo different?

And a final thing, the katana was not a great weapon, more of a hand and a half weapon :P

The fact that it can be used in one hand doesn't change the fact that its designed to be used in two. That's why the handle is so long, you put one hand at the top and one at the bottom and get more leverage on the swing.
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Offline Folken

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2008, 10:01:04 PM »
This is the game that treats a dwarven axe exactly the same as a elven sword exactly the same as a goblin's wooden club, and yet katanas sooooo different?
Touche.

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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2008, 10:22:24 PM »
Honestly, a katana is not all that.  When you wear cloth and wood armour a katana might well be better.  When you go around in plate armour, you need your weapons to have a decent weight behind them and go for bone shattering.

Different fighting styles, different weapons.  A katana is not superior to a long sword, despite what any retarded computer or role play games show you.

Eastern weapons do not have magical extra effects.

A knight would be at least an equal of a samurai.  I expect with plate armour on, the katana would dull its edge relatively quickly and he would be clubbed into submission by a mace or long sword.
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Offline Folken

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2008, 10:49:17 PM »
Aye, plate armor works best to deflect edges, the whole point of an edge to a weapon is to get a mechanical advantage so the plates negate that.  Hence the use of heavier weapons such as warhammers.  Spreading out the blow does nothing to reduce the effect of the impact.
By the way I was just thinking of a defensive fighting style like the bucklers rules in Mordheim when I was talking about the sai's.  Nothing too extreme.

Offline sniperjolly

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2008, 10:53:14 PM »
have we reached a consenus? katana=HW, dai-katana=GW.

Quote
It's a dagger. A blunt dagger. You seriously want to give it powers previously only retained by magical shields?
it does not give and AS bonuses, thus is worse than a magical sheild.
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2008, 11:11:49 PM »
A samarai would have a katana [handweapon], wakizashi[additional hand weapon] daikatana [great weapon] or a bow.  If I was being generous we might call wooden armour heavy armour   :icon_rolleyes:

They did not ride barded steeds either.

So your looking at a samurai knight having a whopping 4+ save while mounted or a 5+ on foot.  With either a single hand weapon, two hand weapons, or a great weapon.  Possibly a bow too.

Honestly I think they would be poor.

As a seperate point, if you really wanted a katana to be better than a handweapon and have rules that represent it being used in two hands, make it counts as a halberd  :-D
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Offline Caralon

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2008, 11:30:17 PM »


As a seperate point, if you really wanted a katana to be better than a handweapon and have rules that represent it being used in two hands, make it counts as a halberd  :-D

No, don't you know?  Katanas make anybody who uses them faster - so you've got a great weapon with +2 Str and +1 Atck.  Yay!

I think the most interesting bit of eastern martial arts would be a unit or character that fought without weapons.  That would something new, I think, or does GW have something like that that I've not seen?  High attacks and WS, but low Str?  Imagined like that it would probably not be the greatest.

I do think there's some room for expansion into other more human type armies, like an army from Araby or Cathay.  I personally would be much more interested in that than CD or OK.
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2008, 11:32:35 PM »
On a serious note, are the cathayan longswords that Ogre characters and maneaters gets actually supposed to be katana's?  I always assumed they were.
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Offline Lord Etharion

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2008, 11:45:29 PM »
I think that's the idea, even though Cathay is supposed to be a China-analogue and warhammerland has a seperate Japan-analogue creatively named 'Nippon'.
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Offline Valetus

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2008, 12:03:58 AM »
Final point on swords was that the lower the social scale the poorer the weapons you had. However, Asian peasantry tended to be equiped with spears and swords could only be afforded by those higher up, hence a very high average quality of blade. On the other hand swords were more widely available in Europe with the peasantry and so on having access to cheap low quality blades. The higher classes would still afford the better swords. This meant that on average the majority of Euopean swords were poorer then their Asia equivalents.

On a more practical note I would like to see some changes in missle weapon rules. For example troops not having the protection of their shields from the rear or right.

Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2008, 12:30:14 AM »


IIRC, in the period analogous to the Empire (in historical terms), even wealthy samurai were known to go into battle with a belt full of swords. Since they were being mass produced, they were known to frequently break. So back-ups were carried.


Final point on swords was that the lower the social scale the poorer the weapons you had. However, Asian peasantry tended to be equiped with spears and swords could only be afforded by those higher up, hence a very high average quality of blade. On the other hand swords were more widely available in Europe with the peasantry and so on having access to cheap low quality blades. The higher classes would still afford the better swords. This meant that on average the majority of Euopean swords were poorer then their Asia equivalents.

No, that would mean that there would be a difference between the classes. So fantasy European knights armed with a hand weapon would be roughly equivalent to samura armed with a hand weapon.

Also, more often than not European commoners were armed with pikes, spears, daggers, axes, etc. Not swords.



On a more practical note I would like to see some changes in missle weapon rules.

Me too. Everyone knows that the superior craftsmanship of the atlatl makes it a more devastating weapon than the European crossbow. Not to be outdone by the poor quality Japanese steel, the Mesoamericans didn't use the stuff at all. This means that they were able to do amazing things with sharpened sticks and chipped rock. Thus, I propose that the atlatl should be:

Range: 36"
S: 6
Armour piercing.
Penetrates ranks like a bolt thrower.
No long range penalty, because its design was based on increasing range.
No move and shoot penalty since it's technically a thrown weapon.

To stick with the historical inspiration, this weapon would be available to skink skirmishers and the new Clan Pestilens skirmishers who learned it through secret training in the jungles, similar to the Eshin OMGninjas.

 :engel:


Offline phillyt

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2008, 02:09:04 AM »
Lets not all gangrape Pyromanen, he is suffering from what many do, the irrational beleif that the katana was something super great.  This is a product of Japan's propaganda.

Welcome to the board young man!  Let this be a warning:  Do not thrust forth strong opinions until you are sure people will not pee in your mouth.

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Offline Shadoweyed

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2008, 03:23:36 AM »
I like the Cathayan Longsword personally because I think it really does pull more from a Chinese background. But they again it is a fantasy setting and things are honestly only loosely based off of real regions, events, and people. GW can take the liberty of saying a Cathayan Longsword is of a higher quality and thus provides AP and +1 Init, Ogres use it one handed, but I bet that any human would use it in two.

When it comes to weapons such as the Sai, the weapon itself doesn't really have any quality above and beyond a hand weapon, but putting it in the hands of one compitent enough to use it right, then it may provide some bonus such as the +1 AS like a shield, but close combat only or whatever.

I honestly can't think of any other types of weapons that would need a representation different than what is already outlined.

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Offline Marwynn

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2008, 04:31:59 AM »
Well since it's a curved weapon I'd give the Katana -1 to AP on the first turn of combat when they have time to properly attack. A bit like the Choppa's +1 to Strength.

Maybe +1 Init, but that'd be that.

Katana = Hand weapon
Dai-Katana = Great Weapon
Naginata = Halberd
Yari = Spear
Yumi = Bow
Dragon gun = Handgun

Do we even know if the Nipponese in Warhammer use these weapons?

Years back I wanted to make an Empire army themed as an Eastern one. Virtually no difference really, though I shuddered at doing all the oroi detail.


Offline Pyromanen

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2008, 07:35:39 AM »
I don't believe i actually said a katana is wastly superior to other swords, only that it's very very different and made with superior techniques, not that the finished blade is superawesome and will cut through a steam tank like a hot knife through butter.
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Offline Folken

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Re: Other weapon rules particularly of the Eastern style.
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2008, 08:03:45 AM »
A bastard sword probably function like a halberd (+1 Strength, two handed)

Cavalry sabers (+1 strength on the charge, mounted only, one handed)

Any two handed weapons you can think of that would function to give two attacks like a staff?