Topic: Empire arcane journal wishlist

[commandant]

Remember that prior to the really unbalanced nonsense in 7th edition hatred was really rare.   Sure priest gave it against certain armies but only a handful.

The super killy late 7th and 8th editions where seriously overpowered nonsense just deleted each other was not that much fun.

Also I think we are sleeping on the power of close order combat detachments.   Everybody is saying that they are bad but nobody seems to have played with them much.   I played 2 games with them and they performed well for me.   

The empire's only unique army special rule was detachments and yes that isn't unique to us anymore but it is still unique to have closed order combat detachments I think.

[Warlord]

250point steam tank so I can take two in a 2k list is what I want.

Fairly certain its price was specifically so that you can't.
However not sure why 2 Terrorghiests can fit instead though.

[Warlord]

Remember that prior to the really unbalanced nonsense in 7th edition hatred was really rare.   Sure priest gave it against certain armies but only a handful.

The super killy late 7th and 8th editions where seriously overpowered nonsense just deleted each other was not that much fun.

Also I think we are sleeping on the power of close order combat detachments.   Everybody is saying that they are bad but nobody seems to have played with them much.   I played 2 games with them and they performed well for me.   

The empire's only unique army special rule was detachments and yes that isn't unique to us anymore but it is still unique to have closed order combat detachments I think.

If people aren't taking them, they aren't appealing enough. Adding these extra rules would help people to try them.
If it ends up too powerful, then deal with that when it comes, but I doubt it will be, especially with pricing of infantry in other armies.

[Dazgrim]

Van Horstmann speculum

Out of period.

[Warlord]

I just hope for a border princes list where all our infantry costs less by 1 or 2 points, and veterans come with heavy armour included in the cost.
Maybe at the cost of not having warrior priests and flagellants, and the Helstorm Rocket Battery.

That would work for me nicely.

[Skyros]

I just hope for a border princes list where all our infantry costs less by 1 or 2 points, and veterans come with heavy armour included in the cost.
Maybe at the cost of not having warrior priests and flagellants, and the Helstorm Rocket Battery.

That would work for me nicely.

That sounds great, honestly.

[Footpatrol2]

This is more wishlisting, but I'd like maybe one unit per 1,000 of Handgunners to have the option to buy Volley Fire.

It should probably be a non-limited upgrade

As it is now, in terms of firepower per point there is literally no reason to choose handgunners over Outriders. Minimum unit cost for handgunners is 80pts (10 models) while the minimum cost for ourtiders is 76 (4 models). The outriders gain Fast Cavalry, Skirmish, Vanguard, 5+ armour, "Fire and Flee" and two more shots...

And while we're wishlisting, handgund should not be a one point upgrade. It should be choose crossbow OR handgun. The extra AP comes at the cost of range.

You pick handgunners over outriders because it's part of core tax and if used as a detachment can sneak in wounds on stand and shoot reaction which assists with combat resolution.

Not good reasons but reasons. The entire empire book is organized this way. Your special choices are better then your core choices. State troops greatswords. Missile troops outriders. Core knights inner circle/dgk's.

[Perforated]

You pick handgunners over outriders because it's part of core tax and if used as a detachment can sneak in wounds on stand and shoot reaction which assists with combat resolution.

But players does not seem to do that. Those 80 points are honestly better spent on knights (core). There is plenty of points in special since the only really viable options are outriders (still debatable as BS shooting is not that great), IC knights, demigryph knights and cannons.

Point for point Greatswords are really not that great, Pistoliers have no business being in special and Mortars might as well stay on the shelf.

This is the over-arching issue with the Empire army list, the internal balance is beyond terrible...

[Zygmund]

This is the over-arching issue with the Empire army list, the internal balance is beyond terrible...

Same thing as in the 8th.

The book makes you leave many units on the shelf and other units are auto-includes. The book plays you, not you playing the book.

I don't have very high hopes for the Empire Arcane Journal. I'm afraid GW will not rewrite the Empire list with better core infantry, nor change the unit costs.

But I'd love to see an Imperial/Reiksguard list with foot knights - if correctly priced. And maybe they introduce interesting Mercenary companies that can be taken in other armies too.

-Zyg

[Clymer]

Immune to Phycology is passed on to the detachment.   Why would a priest's spells be passed on to the detachment? The detachment is not being buffed by the priest.   Frenzy on the other hand is passed on to the detachment.

Because empire has no unique army special rules anymore, and detachments, while being underwhelming would be a good area to try to fix them up a bit

The fact that nothing in the empire book synergizes with detachments is sad. Yes and in old editions the WP gave the whole unit hatred! But now, nope that's not allowed. The necrotect does that but empire would be too OP with hatred

Detachments pick up the following special rules from their regimental unit: Stubborn, hatred, frenzy, and immune to psychology.

So detachments to greatswords automatically pick up stubborn. And/or hit the regimental unitl with Battle Lust and the detachments pick up hatred and frenzy.

Those are pretty damn good detachment synergies. Not to mention the +1 combat resolution for an additional close order unit in combat and the fact that on a countercharge they get their charging initiative bonus. On your turn, the combo charge of regimental + detachment forces at least some attacks onto the detachment, preserving the ranks of the parent unit for longer... Detachments are actually pretty good. They just don't work like they did in 7th edition when they were way overpowered. Once people try them out and get used to them and get the right balance of regimental and detachment unit sizes and unit frontages, people will find them to be pretty decent.

[Clymer]

This is the over-arching issue with the Empire army list, the internal balance is beyond terrible...

Same thing as in the 8th.

The book makes you leave many units on the shelf and other units are auto-includes. The book plays you, not you playing the book.

I don't have very high hopes for the Empire Arcane Journal. I'm afraid GW will not rewrite the Empire list with better core infantry, nor change the unit costs.

But I'd love to see an Imperial/Reiksguard list with foot knights - if correctly priced. And maybe they introduce interesting Mercenary companies that can be taken in other armies too.

-Zyg

I feel like we are playing different armies every time I see comments like these. I've now tried out almost every unit in our list and my current win/loss record is 8 wins, 1 draw, and 1 loss. I've never run more than one unit of demigryphs with two models in it, because that's all the models I have. Right now there's only two units in the Empire army that I would say are a hard-pass: Helstorm Rocket Batteries and Mortars. They were a hard pass in 7th and 8th editions too, unfortunately, but no change there.

Here's the units that I think are truly excellent in our army, and hold their own against other armies and also against other choices in the book
- State Troops, all kinds, suited to their purpose with the appropriate support
- Great Swords, with the right support and conferring stubborn onto combat detachments
- Knights, yes, Inner Circle knights too, and both lances and great weapons have their uses.
- Demigryphs (Obviously)
- Steam Tanks (also obviously)
- Pegasus mounts
- Griffon and Imperial Griffon Mounts
- Captains and generals, equipped well for their role and with the right mount and/or unit for their purpose
- Chapter Masters and Grand Masters
- Wizards of all levels
- The Arch Lector, but not on a War Altar, unfortunately
- Pistoliers (yes, I said it! They are great, impetuous isn't that bad if you place these guys well)
- Outriders
- Great Cannons

The other units I haven't mentioned I have found to be meh, or I haven't found a good use for yet, or I haven't tried out at all. But that seems like an awful lot of choice to me.

[Perforated]

I feel like we are playing different armies every time I see comments like these. I've now tried out almost every unit in our list and my current win/loss record is 8 wins, 1 draw, and 1 loss.

What are you playing with? What are you playing against? What size of the games?

The tournament data gathered and collated by woehammer shows that Empire second to last with a 41% win rate. Only dwarves have it worse with 38%. We will of course need more data but the trend is not looking very good for Empire.

Here's the units that I think are truly excellent in our army, and hold their own against other armies and also against other choices in the book

- State Troops, all kinds, suited to their purpose with the appropriate support

State troops are objectively over-priced when compared to other "non elite" core infantry. There really is no way around it.

For the the same (or more) points we get a basic human statline and the close order, regimental unit and detachment special rules. Everyone else is getting more for their points.

Detachments is not the answer to this. They were never over-powered and has only been watered down over the editions, now to the point where they aren't even unique to Empire anymore (though our access to the rule is the greatest).

- Great Swords, with the right support and conferring stubborn onto combat detachments

I mean, they are not horrible, but they could do with a one point reduction or just give them the Veteran rule flat out.

- Knights, yes, Inner Circle knights too, and both lances and great weapons have their uses.

Yes, knights are objectively one of our few truly good options.

- Demigryphs (Obviously)
- Steam Tanks (also obviously)

Duh

- Pegasus mounts

Great utility, no argument.

- Griffon and Imperial Griffon Mounts

Again, it is a pretty decent choice for the points.

- Captains and generals, equipped well for their role and with the right mount and/or unit for their purpose
- Chapter Masters and Grand Masters

No issue with these characters at all.

- Wizards of all levels

Yes, but it really isn't saying much about the Empire as a whole.

- The Arch Lector, but not on a War Altar, unfortunately

Sorry, but the Lector/Warrior Priest are now sub-par choices. Better off going with a captain or wizard.

- Pistoliers (yes, I said it! They are great, impetuous isn't that bad if you place these guys well)

I'm coming around to these guys, there is "some" utility to them. But they have no business being Special...

- Outriders

As far as BS shooting goes this is the best option we have (after the Helblaster + Engineer combo). They are in fact so good that there is literally no point in wasting points on Missile State Troops (unless they are archers).

- Great Cannons

Yup, even though it was nerfed to oblivion it is still reliable against plenty of targets.

---

There is a pattern here, cavalry/monster options are good while infantry options are sub-par.

[Clymer]

I feel like we are playing different armies every time I see comments like these. I've now tried out almost every unit in our list and my current win/loss record is 8 wins, 1 draw, and 1 loss.

What are you playing with? What are you playing against? What size of the games?

The tournament data gathered and collated by woehammer shows that Empire second to last with a 41% win rate. Only dwarves have it worse with 38%. We will of course need more data but the trend is not looking very good for Empire.

Good question, I admit I don't have great data for 2000 point games.

Most of my games have been at 1500 points, a couple at 1000, one at 1250, and one at 750... all of those I have not just won, but completely tabled my opponent.

I have 2, 2000 point games, a loss and a draw.

But big asteriks on those 2000 pointers:

In the loss, I had been on a streak of giving my opponents such a pounding, that 1) my crew was really starting to grouse about Empire being too overpowered and 2) I was getting a little bored of the core of the list I was running. So, I intentionally dialed back the power level, and did some experimenting with extra-wide units, and when we rolled battle for the pass scenario and my opponent intentionally put out a bunch of even more restrictive impassible terrain, my army was trippley hosed.

The 2000 point draw is also pretty inconclusive for me. Having drubbed my opponent at 1500 points before, he tailored a list to deal with me and threw 700 points in a unit into my 400-ish points worth of infantry and BSB and finally destroyed that unit for the first time ever, in any game, after 3 rounds of combat. Meanwhile, my griffon general, 15% of my army did literally nothing but spin circles the whole game due to some bad luck: a failed charge, followed up by a very long flee reaction due to a chariot charge, a failure to rally, and another long flee. The general did not cause or suffer a wound the whole game. Elsewhere, I was trying out the Level 4 on an Imperial griffon, and didn't really know what to do with him, so I don't think I played him well at all. Still, even if things had been a little different, I don't think it would have resulted in the blowouts I've had at other points levels.

All that said, I'm still pretty confident the strengths of Empire are great and I expect they'll climb the ranks pretty quickly as people learn to play them.

[Zygmund]

This is the over-arching issue with the Empire army list, the internal balance is beyond terrible...

Same thing as in the 8th.

The book makes you leave many units on the shelf and other units are auto-includes. The book plays you, not you playing the book.

I don't have very high hopes for the Empire Arcane Journal. I'm afraid GW will not rewrite the Empire list with better core infantry, nor change the unit costs.

I feel like we are playing different armies every time I see comments like these. I've now tried out almost every unit in our list and my current win/loss record is 8 wins, 1 draw, and 1 loss.

I've won 3 and lost 3. I was inexperienced and somewhat unlucky in losing those three, but then again I was more experienced or at least more careful in winning the other three. Then again I've also soundly beaten the Empire in small games with my Dwarfs, although a bit lucky there too.

In general, I feel the better & more experienced players have won. Of course they can design better lists too. So no, my feelings are not based on the win/loss ratio. My feelings are based on my painted Empire armies and what I can do with those models in this new ed.

I've never run more than one unit of demigryphs with two models in it, because that's all the models I have.

Well, I have zero demigryph models. But that alone doesn't explain things. My IC knights have done great, very much in the same role. And the role is unchanged from the previous editions. (Although I think the DGK are more efficient for their points.)

Right now there's only two units in the Empire army that I would say are a hard-pass: Helstorm Rocket Batteries and Mortars. They were a hard pass in 7th and 8th editions too, unfortunately, but no change there.

Here's the units that I think are truly excellent in our army

I don't disagree there. Other than adding Pistoliers and Handgunners to the hard-pass units. And putting a minus to the melee State Troops.

Pistoliers are very situational, and your opponent's army & skill in understanding how Impetuous works are crucial. Against a good opponent with chaff and/or magic and/or small knight units and/or monstrous troops and/or cheap infantry blocks of their own, the Pistoliers suck hard. My opponents always forced my Pistoliers to roll for Impetuous the first turn, and maybe unlucky, I always got the charge, and they proudly rode to their deaths. Not totally wasted, as they did accomplish something in one or two occasions. But they're totally hit and miss, very easily herded by the opponent, rarely get to shoot anything, and are quite poor in combat despite their awesome number of attacks. A weak unit choice among the other options.

I'd add Handgunners to the list of units left on the shelf. You will take Outriders, Crossbows and/or a Helblaster every time instead of Handgunners, if you want performance for points. In the 6th ed, I nearly always bring a unit 10-13 Handgunners, and often twice that (in detachments). Now, I dimply don't see the point, unless perhaps if I know I will be playing against an elite cavalry list. And for fluffy of course. They're not super bad compared to the other options, just clearly less efficient. Mostly because they cost a point too much for no apparent reason.

I've done great with a solid block of Spearmen, won games with it, or at the least avoided losing badly. They've just become a bit less good (no CR bonus for higher unit strength), and the detachment rules have been watered down. Plus more heavy hitters in the game, many with First Charge. The melee State Troops simply get pushed around the battlefield more. Or ignored by fast moving troops. Slightly worse for the same points as earlier.

The inner unbalance of the Empire army list is clear, and comparable unbalance to similar troop choices in other armies is becoming clearer. Maybe the Empire never was an army where you could bring any troops and hope to win, but now the Empire has either been pushed back or then you're clearly better off in taking the obviously better unit choices. That's how the book/game forces your hand. It's very similar to the 8th ed.

This is the reason for my pessimism about the Empire & what the Arcane Journal may bring. I don't see a possibility for a change in the present pattern, because the change would need to be broad.

But I'll play the Empire for sure, and expect to win my share too. Maybe because I like uphill gaming. 

-Zyg

[Clymer]

State troops are objectively over-priced when compared to other "non elite" core infantry. There really is no way around it.

There's a lot of threads comparing Empire State troops, point for point with similar units from other armies. I think this is flawed analysis because you have to look at every unit within the context of its army. The context of State Troops is that they are well supported by cheap characters with abilities that synergize well with them, in an army that has ways of relieving pressure from the infantry with supporting units and shooting, and has a superior ability to control the movement of the opponent with distracting units and long-charging and fast moving cavalry.

Again though, my experience with Empire infantry has been exceptionally positive. I've used veteran swordsmen, vet and non-vet halberdiers, and Great Swords. They've all punched above their weight, point-for-point, in the games I've played with them.

Oh, and my opponents so far have been:
Warriors of Chaos (2 games, 2 wins)
Orcs and Goblins (3 games, 2 wins, one draw)
Tomb Kings (1 game, loss)
Ogres (1 game, win)
Dark Elves (1 game, win)
High Elves (1 game, win)

Oh, that's actually nine games played, not 8, so my record is actually 7-1-1.

Player skill-wise, I think my matches have been mostly pretty equal, too.

[Clymer]

I'd add Handgunners to the list of units left on the shelf. You will take Outriders, Crossbows and/or a Helblaster every time instead of Handgunners, if you want performance for points. In the 6th ed, I nearly always bring a unit 10-13 Handgunners, and often twice that (in detachments). Now, I dimply don't see the point, unless perhaps if I know I will be playing against an elite cavalry list. And for fluffy of course. They're not super bad compared to the other options, just clearly less efficient. Mostly because they cost a point too much for no apparent reason.

I think handgunners and crossbows are both middling... neither a must have or a must-leave. I feel like they are not worthwhile for a unit of 10 or more, but have their place as detachments of around 5 to whatever number you need to round out your core choice 25% requirement. I'm not a fan of helblasters. On paper they look good, and when you get something close to their maximum effect, the results are amazing. But my opponents have been too clever and have managed to destroy or avoid it sufficiently that it's also felt middling, neither a must-take or a must-leave. Outriders are my top pick for shooting. They won't win you the game, but they reliably plink off the couple of wounds you need to do to take a rank off a unit and start forcing panic checks maybe on their 2nd or 3rd turn of shooting. They can also move crazy far at 8 inches and still shoot. Even with ponderous, moving and shooting I can reliably generate 2-3 wounds per turn under poor shooting circumstances. They also have the advantage of not feeling too important to my opponents who mostly leave them alone and just take the hits.

[Zygmund]

I'd add Handgunners to the list of units left on the shelf. You will take Outriders, Crossbows and/or a Helblaster every time instead of Handgunners, if you want performance for points. In the 6th ed, I nearly always bring a unit 10-13 Handgunners, and often twice that (in detachments). Now, I dimply don't see the point, unless perhaps if I know I will be playing against an elite cavalry list. And for fluffy of course. They're not super bad compared to the other options, just clearly less efficient. Mostly because they cost a point too much for no apparent reason.

I think handgunners and crossbows are both middling... neither a must have or a must-leave. I feel like they are not worthwhile for a unit of 10 or more, but have their place as detachments of around 5 to whatever number you need to round out your core choice 25% requirement. I'm not a fan of helblasters. On paper they look good, and when you get something close to their maximum effect, the results are amazing. But my opponents have been too clever and have managed to destroy or avoid it sufficiently that it's also felt middling, neither a must-take or a must-leave. Outriders are my top pick for shooting. They won't win you the game, but they reliably plink off the couple of wounds you need to do to take a rank off a unit and start forcing panic checks maybe on their 2nd or 3rd turn of shooting. They can also move crazy far at 8 inches and still shoot. Even with ponderous, moving and shooting I can reliably generate 2-3 wounds per turn under poor shooting circumstances. They also have the advantage of not feeling too important to my opponents who mostly leave them alone and just take the hits.

Agree fully.

-Zyg

[Warlord]

Helstorm Rocket Batteries and Mortars. They were a hard pass in 7th and 8th editions too, unfortunately, but no change there.

Helstorms were introduced in 7th edition. And were amazing. 5 inch template, strength 5, moved like a cannon rather than pure scatter. The only time they were worth taking.

- Great Swords, with the right support and conferring stubborn onto combat detachments

I mean, they are not horrible, but they could do with a one point reduction or just give them the Veteran rule flat out.

They really should have Veteran rule included in their cost.
Points I am neither plus nor minus about. I would rather elves cost more, as they are SEVERLY underpriced.

[Skyros]

Helstorm Rocket Batteries and Mortars. They were a hard pass in 7th and 8th editions too, unfortunately, but no change there.

Helstorms were introduced in 7th edition. And were amazing. 5 inch template, strength 5, moved like a cannon rather than pure scatter. The only time they were worth taking.

They were so much fun. Taking them and then facing down a skaven list was like Christmas.

[Clymer]

Hey Warlord,

In 7th, the Helstorm moved like a cannon ball where you'd nominate a point and roll the artillery dice to see how far it moved forward, and then it made a full scatter from that point. And there was no pre-measuring. I never hit anything with them, even with the 5" template.

And I agree that Greatswords should have the veteran rule included at no additional point costs. That feels right from both a game balance and lore standpoint. Still, they've done just fine for me and I haven't bothered with the Veteran upgrade yet. I also haven't needed to use their Stubborn rule yet, although it is included in their point cost.

[Warlord]

Oh I like Greatswords. Always have, I am not concerned about their cost, just think Veteran would be nice and made sense for their cost. But they are my infantry of choice in this edition.

Regarding the Helstorm, yes it could scatter, but I seem to remember Hit also hit too, could be wrong. Either way, I used my Helstorm in 7th to GREAT affect and it always paid for itself and then some.

[Rodman49]

Same thing as in the 8th.

The book makes you leave many units on the shelf and other units are auto-includes. The book plays you, not you playing the book.

I don't have very high hopes for the Empire Arcane Journal. I'm afraid GW will not rewrite the Empire list with better core infantry, nor change the unit costs.

But I'd love to see an Imperial/Reiksguard list with foot knights - if correctly priced. And maybe they introduce interesting Mercenary companies that can be taken in other armies too.

-Zyg

I would agree that the internal balance is off - really only the 6e book had "great" balance but the best army book of that edition for internal balance was clearly the Wood Elf book.

Really the following changes would be needed to bring it close to having internal parity:

• Reduce cost of state missile troops
• Reduce cost of greatswords slightly
• Move Pistoliers to core
• Warrior priests need to give an additional buff to the unit their in or get increased leadership
• Slight increase in points to Demigryph knights
• Improve Strength on both Mortar and Helstorm
• Consider leaders having different force org benefits (general as count/captain gives you core greatswords, grand master/chaptermaster general gives you a core inner circle, etc.)

[Warlord]

I agree with some of those, but not exactly.

My changes would be:
General / Captain as general - 1 unit of greatswords as core. Cannot ride Demigryphs. 1 unmounted captain per 1000 to scout.
Chapter Master can also be a BSB.
Warrior Priests / Lectors have their leadership back to 8/9, and they bring the hatred again. And a WP or Lector as General, make 1 unit of Flagellants core. Make the Altar cheaper
Witch Hunters hatred ability swapped for just plan frenzy. Maybe a point increase.
Engineers are perfect. Except give them a warhorse option. And fix the Hochland Long Rifle. Get rid of Pigeons.
Wizards are fine… but probably a bit too powerful as we don’t have the Colleges open yet. Max level 3 (we still have the item to get dispel L4)

State troops need to be 1 point cheaper, and a blanket rule of detachments not causing panic at all for the whole army.
Veteran needs to come with heavy armour.
Handgunners to be same price as crossbows
Archers - perfect.
Free company to be 1 point less.
Knights to have Full Plate again. I would love morning stars too, but I get that its more a unique Bret thing. Great weapon knights to have a wolf cloak that gives an extra 1+AS vs shooting. Increase price by 1 point.

Greatswords to have Veteran rule included.
Pistoliers… where to start. Give them fusilade. And an option for a standard. Maybe with a leader an ability to reroll impetuous.
Outriders… probably increase by 1 point.
Inner circle - they are fine.
Mortar - reduce points, make it S3 again
Cannon - reduce points slightly to compensate for reduced effectiveness.

Demigryphs - move to rare. Make Full Plate standard and associated cost.

Helblaster - leave as is. Maybe slight points decrease considering Engineer is only real way to make it viable
Helstorm… where to start. Increase S. Halve the scatter distance.
Steam Tank - allow it to shoot main gun or steam gun in combat. Decrease points to 250. Bring back the variants too.
Flagellants - swap impetuous and furious charge back to frenzy. 1 rule is simpler than 2.

AND my additions…

Add halflings back i to the list. Hot pot too. If Dwarves get their doomseekers, axe thrower and Bugman, then why can’t we have some halflings. Hardly game breaking.
And bring back the war wagon - only reason I will accept that they don’t is if they give it to Kislev instead.

[Clymer]

Changes I'd make to our army book:

Lector and Warrior priest +1 Ld. Soulfire damage output is either improved or made so it works in either opponent's combat phase, to bring it in line with assailment spells
Captain +1 attack
State Troops -1 point
Inner Circle Knights move to core, or stay special but get a -2 point reduction
Demigryphs very slight points increase, no more than 5 points per model
Flagellants -1, or even -2 points, or keep the same points and increase T +1
Pistoliers gain feigned flight
Greatswords gain veteran, and 0-1 core per general taken
Hellstorm... I don't even know where to begin, but a complete re-tool is in order

[Zygmund]

Changes I'd make to our army book:

Lector and Warrior priest +1 Ld. Soulfire damage output is either improved or made so it works in either opponent's combat phase, to bring it in line with assailment spells
Captain +1 attack
State Troops -1 point
Inner Circle Knights move to core, or stay special but get a -2 point reduction
Demigryphs very slight points increase, no more than 5 points per model
Flagellants -1, or even -2 points, or keep the same points and increase T +1
Pistoliers gain feigned flight
Greatswords gain veteran, and 0-1 core per general taken
Hellstorm... I don't even know where to begin, but a complete re-tool is in order

Thinking how on point this is, and how simple a fix, I just wonder why the GW crew didn't find these out.

I think you forgot the Mortar. I believe it should be S3, or much cheaper.

-Zyg