Topic: Core discussion

[The Peacemaker]

So what are people finding for their core setups?
I obviously love my multiple units of 4 knights. But eventually I'll want to try out other things.
Archers are good. But I was also thinking about crossbows.

7pts isn't a terrible price for a 30" strength 4 crossbow with armour bane 2. They are cheaper than HE longbows and DE Rcrossbows.

But only being able to shoot in 1 rank is what bugs me. Hills allow shooting in extra rank. So if following terrain setup rules I can place a hill on both sides of map to guarantee i get one. Book says it can be 8" wide. Which is 204mm which is 8 bases.

So I'm thinking of taking a pseudo gunline of:
10 crossbows
5 crossbow
5 crossbows
Engineer
Cannon.
 
The 10 xbows go on hill with cannon next to it. Engineer up there too probably with pigeon bombs or a longrifle. The two 5 man crossbows go in front of hill.
Rest of core has archers and knights. And of course the rest of army has demigryphs, Stank, and heroes on mounts.(Otherwise no point in playing empire). Probably take a wizard with ruby ring for this list.

So the crossbows job is to kill chaff units with the 20 xbow shots along with archer shots as back up to eliminate chaff. Otherwise they can whittle down other units, do a lucky wound on enemy monsters.
The hills also provide a spot for Griffins to hide until enemy artillery can be eliminated.


Honestly without a hill I don't think I'd ever bother with state troop crossbows as Min size unit is 10 and i'm not deploying such an immobile unit that wide. And no other way to get 5man crossbows except from normal state troops which are trash.

[commandant]

I'm running a big block of halberdiers (24) with 2 detachments of 8 or 9. They are working well for me atm.

[Mike Stockin]

Honestly without a hill I don't think I'd ever bother with state troop crossbows as Min size unit is 10 and i'm not deploying such an immobile unit that wide. And no other way to get 5man crossbows except from normal state troops which are trash.

How does terrain set up work in TOW?

[commandant]

6 or seven pieces on a standard board. 1 piece per 12 inches of board edge

[commandant]

I'm running a big block of halberdiers (24) with 2 detachments of 8 or 9. They are working well for me atm.

In bigger games (the 1 2000 point game I played) I ran 2. I fill out the rest of the core with detachments for my Greatswords

[Mike Stockin]

6 or seven pieces on a standard board. 1 piece per 12 inches of board edge

Do you place it in turns?

[Footpatrol2]

Since our state troops are so trashy, I've been taking a 20 man unit of cross bows with standard. As a duel purpose unit ranged chaff killer and combat block. Obviously if I get a hill I try to take advantage.

[commandant]

6 or seven pieces on a standard board. 1 piece per 12 inches of board edge

Do you place it in turns?

Generally yes though it depends on what type of battle you are fighting

[xnet445]

I’m running a block of 20+ spearmen with a detachment of 10 FC and another of 5 xbows. I add 2x5 archers and some knights. The size of the spearman block varies depending on how many points I need to reach core minimum.

[Warlord]

I love the IDEA of a crossbow unit.
The wider bases, and no shooting in 2 ranks really makes it hard for me though.

When I made a TVI style list, I think I convinced myself of units of 6 or 7 crossbows as detachments. However it requires state troops... so there is that problem. I do like Greatswords though, so perhaps as detachments for them.

Then I contrast them to Outriders.... and I just prefer outriders.

I have two different Core configurations, and the main difference is either a big unit of knights, or two small units of spearmen.

OPTION 1 - Big Knights - 500pts
4 x Knights, Lance, Musician
4 x Knights, Lance, Musician
5 x Archers, Scout
5 x Archers, Scout
8 x Knights, Lance, Full Command, Drilled, Gleaming Pendant, Silver Horn

Idea being that the big knight unit gets a lot of attention, both from an enemy positioning perspective, as well as magic and shooting, but is also is an actual threat with Drilled and Silver Horn, and fairly stable with the Gleaming Pendant.
I do take a steam tank too, as well as 2 units of greatswords, so its about making my army look like it has lots of threats so the enemy doesn't know where to prioritise.

OPTION 2 - Spearmen - 500pts
4 x Knights, Lance, Champ + Musician
4 x Knights, Lance, Champ + Musician
5 x Archers, Scout
5 x Archers, Scout
15 x Spearmen, Shield, Musician
15 x Spearmen, Shield, Musician

2 units of 15 spearmen can safely take on most light cavalry chaff, but otherwise are pretty much chaff themselves. No Standard so they don't give up extra victory points. They look like something that needs to be dealt with though. They serve a similar function to that other list on another thread that has 2 x 28 Free Company.... and perhaps the spears would do better as Free Company instead of state troops with thrown weapons and warband rules.... not sure yet, will require playtesting, which won't be for a while, however I have ordered bases, so we shall see!

[Footpatrol2]

The advantage not going min crossbows is if you take any wounds from counter fire your durable enough it won't effect your shooting output since you only shoot from the front anyway. When the enemy hits your line you still have close order and your roughly as survivable as the rest of your state troops. If a enemy large target is on the field everyone in the unit gets to shoot.

6+ armor save is boo boo.
5+ armor save is kinda meh and costs too many points.

I think 6 point spearmen are ok ish. I don't know about spears with shields seems like it costs too much. I definitely think veterans is over costed.

[Clymer]

You could take a unit of 10 crossbows and then detachments of 5 crossbows with them. You could also get detachments of 5 off of Greatswords, but I’m guessing you’re not a fan of them either.

Otherwise, the only way to do then well is to make sure you have Eva hill in your deployment zone. We’ve been finding the standard terrain rules to offer less terrain than we want. But the only alternative we’ve agreed on is to have one player set up terrain and the other chooses the dudes. That doesn’t usually result in one well placed hill on each side, which makes the unit of 20 crossbows risky.

[Zygmund]

The advantage not going min crossbows is if you take any wounds from counter fire your durable enough it won't effect your shooting output...

This.

I actually ran the numbers in comparison to a Helblaster, and I think if you can get 17 CB's (119pts) to shoot (on a hill), they roughly equal a HBVG (120pts) - are easier to kill but have 17 wounds compared to 3 and produce a reliable salvo of shots without the danger of malfunctioning. My HBVG's usually get destroyed before they can shoot or I roll crap for them, but that unit of CB's would have an impact in the game for sure. And they can hold their own against a small warmachine-hunter unit.

Outriders are totally too squishy, they get shot and destroyed right away. Take skirmishing archers for the same points value and you'll have units that live and have an effect in the game.

6+ armor save is boo boo.
5+ armor save is kinda meh and costs too many points.

I think 6 point spearmen are ok ish. I don't know about spears with shields seems like it costs too much. I definitely think veterans is over costed.

I'm regularly using a block of 23+ spearmen. In place of the regular unit of swordsmen in 6th ed. This in games of 1000-1500pts. I would bring two blocks in a 2000pts game.

I've found infantry blocks to be crucial for keeping the line. My attempts at MSU have been ineffective because small units get shot to pieces or tied to combats they cannot win, and many of them are too far away to benefit from the general and the BSB. They just break, flee and die, causing havoc in other units. (And I'm not playing the griffon or STank or DGK's, because if the Empire cannot play without them, I'm not interested in this game.)

I'm taking shields to my spearmen. In general, the points/effectiveness is quite equal between 6-point spearmen without shields and 7-point spearmen with shields. The latter are a little bit more durable, so the unit has a little bit more staying power. Shields also look good. I use pavise style bigger shields.

So, in summary, my core in smaller games looks like this:
- one unit of spearmen, with one melee and one ranged detachment
- one large unit of crossbowmen
- archers, mostly scouts
- 4-5 knights

For larger games, add another unit of knights and/or a second melee regiment.

-Zyg

[The Peacemaker]

I feel your pain Zygmund. But without griffin, Stank, DGK, the empire isn't competitive. ...at least at Tier 1 or 2.
Without these units, isn't the Bret Exiles list the same thing? 

Hmm, If i could not take those 3 units I would probably spam Wizards and do the fly shenanigans with a block of Halberds. Rest of core would be the block of crossbows on hill, archers, and probably a large drilled knight unit to protect the pegasus'. Then cannons and greatswords. ....probably try out flagellants(i haven't really looked at them yet).
Can definitely make a Tier 3 list, maybe it's even goid enough for Tier 2.

[Warlord]

Without DGK or Stank, then of course the enemy will shoot and magic your blocks.
The whole point of a Stank in this edition is to demand attention same way a dragon does.