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Imperial Artisans ... The Painters, Crafters & Writers Guilds => The Brush and Palette => Topic started by: imperialforge on September 04, 2006, 08:04:59 AM
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I was so inspired by Marcus Leitdorf's projects that I finally got around to starting my own - which I had been planning for over two years. I wanted to make a small Imperial Castle - not a huge towering monstrosity, but more like one of many personal castles of some Imperial Noble, with a more "chamber" feel to it. My idea was to take something commercially available and cheap - like a toy castle and transform it into a respectable piece of Imperial real estate.
Well, here is how it started... The whole thing cost me $12.00 on e-bay. I figured, $12.00 CANNOT be bad, no matter what comes out in the end. It is small, but I wanted more of a "fortified-residence-close-to-the-border" feel. Besides, this is my first such project...
The figures will give an idea of overall size.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/imperialforge/Castle-WIP.jpg)
Some details:
The crowned skull was too much of a fit to pass by... :evil:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/imperialforge/Castle-WIP2.jpg)
The pewter charm I got on e-bay will serve as a nice statue of Verena or Shallya greeting a tired traveler... The drawbridge is working - what else does a noble need returning home early in the morning, after a night of whoring in the local town...
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/imperialforge/Castle-WIP3.jpg)
I think that after some painting, the addition of banners, grass, decals and such, it will look quite presentable! Suggestions and feedback welcome :-)
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Wow, those photos actually make it look surprisingly good. I hope it does get painted soon though...
What are you going to do about the bottom left grate area? It looks a bit out of place and very kiddy with movable parts... Otherwise, 12 bucks is a fantastic bargain for something that is pre-constructed and almost ready to go.
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OK,
the work continues:
The castle is in the priming stage...
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/imperialforge/CAstle-WIP4.jpg)
For housekeeping reasons, the roof on the right tower will be primed and painted later and separately.
@Warlord: I wasn't paying attention to that box, but now that you mention it, it does look a bit kiddy. Well, nothing I can do now - I will paint it up and pretend there is a locking mechanism behind the wall. :-D
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Nice to see you again IF :)
How did you figure out the scale for this kit? I've looked at toy castles on ebay but I could never quite work out if the size was right for use with Warhammer minis.
You might be able to hide the grate by stacking some loose stuff against it - barrels, timbers, and so forth.
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Nice to see you again IF :)
How did you figure out the scale for this kit? I've looked at toy castles on ebay but I could never quite work out if the size was right for use with Warhammer minis.
Well, I took a risk. The castle turned out to be a bit smaller than I expected, hence the fortified residence theme. :-)
But it is a good idea to see pics to get a sense of the scale, obviously. Sometimes there are measurements in descriptions.
You might be able to hide the grate by stacking some loose stuff against it - barrels, timbers, and so forth.
I might plant a shrub or a small tree in front of it...
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A little work to make it look older and less friendly and it should be quite sharp.
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Hey Imperialforge,
This is an excellent idea. I think that one of my boys actually has that castle stashed away someplace with their old toys. I'll have to look. My wife gave me a pretty large plastic castle set some time back that would actually work pretty well for WFB. There were two problems with it that caused me to set it aside: One, was that the inside of the walls were just ugly blank mold lines. The second had to do with scale. It didn't feel like the scale was consistent within the castle itself, though most of it would seem to work.
I have found that scale is a tricky thing when it comes to terrain. In doing a little research on castles I have found that to truly make some of them to scale would make the walls 24" and higher. That is not too practical for a WFB tabletop game. I think the trick is to find a balance so that the terrain piece looks reasonable.
Anyway, if I can find the castle my wife gave me I will take a few pictures to let you see what it looks like. I might even still have the box it came in with the name of the company that made it.
Marcus
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What a great idea. And so cheap as well, means you can put a lot more time and effort and money into the details which is the best part of terrain building. good use fo the crowned skull shield piece.
one observation. The lever for the gate is on the outside of the residence/castle? I can imagine the gate keeper shouting up "open the gates" only for the sentries inside to shout out "Open it yourself, you lazy bigger"
For fluff. You could add some murder holes above the gateway or maybe place a cauldron on the walkway for showering attackers. Im sure you can pick up small plastic toy ones on the net somewhere.
Good 'outside the box' idea!!
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Hey IF,
I found it buried in the garage. Here are some shots of the castle my wife gave me some time ago.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a32/rcraig/101_0763.jpg)
Here is a shot of the whole thing from the front. I placed a few spearmen around so you could see the scale.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a32/rcraig/101_0764.jpg)
An aerial view.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a32/rcraig/101_0765.jpg)
A close up of the manor. I had actually thought about using this piece separately.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a32/rcraig/101_0766.jpg)
Here is a close up of the gatehouse.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a32/rcraig/101_0767.jpg)
This is the interior of the walls. The unfinished aspect is what put me off a little. I still haven't figured out how to go about making them look a bit more realistic.
This castle was made by Simba. The link they show on the box is: www.simba-dickie.com
The beautiful thing about a project like this is that the texturing is already done for you. The stonework is much more to scale. The stonework in the MDF tower I am building is really too large, but making it smaller is a whole boat load of work! Primer and a little paint on a project like this will yield fantastic results I think. The details you add will greatly enhance the piece. I am going to be following your progress closely.
Keep up the good work, and thanks for sharing.
Marcus
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Hey all,
Here is a link to a variety of toy castles, one of which is the one above. There is also a village set, but I didn't check the scale.
http://www.pixymusic.com/Toy_Castles/toy_castles.html
Marcus
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Hi guys,
thank you for the info, and as thankful as i am, here is a german ebay auction offering 8 pieces of this wonderful castle for just 19,90 eur.
http://cgi.ebay.de/Mega-RITTERBURG-120-Teile-NEU-OVP-von-Simba_W0QQitemZ260026324208QQihZ016QQcategoryZ374QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
best regards
ST
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Hmm - if you take two of those kits, you might be able to chop one of them up, and use the panels to cover the insides of the other's walls?
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You might be able to hide the grate by stacking some loose stuff against it - barrels, timbers, and so forth.
I might plant a shrub or a small tree in front of it...
For that grate, you could make it look like its some kind of drainage grate. Like the scene from LoTR. Paint it rust color/tin blitz, and maybe add some stones to make a creek bed. It doesn't look too bad if you can hide the gaps around the grate.
@Marcus Leifdorf: Have you, or anyone tried using that spackle you can buy at a home improvement center by the bucket full? You make be able to trough that in the back and when its semi hard, drag a pencil or something along it to create stonework.
I have no idea if this would work but it was an idea I had watching a guy do plastering at my house. I almost asked,..."Umm hey guy do you do really small walls too?" "I mean really small...like 24"?" :-D
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Now I gotta buy a plastic castle...
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Here is an example of what could be done with a toy castle. This one is from Simba and is now discontinued. The Lion's Rock Castle currently available from simba has some parts of it, but not all.
(http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics9/img43b3fc304e231.jpg)
:-o :-o :-o Drool...
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Perhaps I should haul out my son's Playmobile castle to check out the scale. I am curious: The skull and crown motif above impierialforge's windows looks like they are taken directly from the shield options on Empirel Infantry shields. Is that right?
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Wow! :-o
That Lion's Rock castle looks great. This really gives me hope for the plastic castle I have. Isn't it amazing what a little paint and ingenuity can do!
Phydox,
Your idea with the spackle certainly has merit. I will just have to think about how to fit it to the walls. Here is a test using some spackle over some balsa sheet that I did some time ago. The texturing was done by wading up some aluminum foil into a ball/pad and lightly pressing it onto the spackle while it was still slightly soft. The lines were indeed just scratched in using a nail.
Marcus
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a32/rcraig/101_0768.jpg)
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My concern with spackle would be survivability - the stuff works great when applied thinly across a nice, solid wall, but wouldn't it be prone to fracturing or crumbling when used in a gaming piece?
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Perhaps I should haul out my son's Playmobile castle to check out the scale. I am curious: The skull and crown motif above impierialforge's windows looks like they are taken directly from the shield options on Empirel Infantry shields. Is that right?
Playmobile might be too big a scale but sure see for yourself. and yes that is the skull and crown motif from the infantry shield sprue :wink:
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Phydox,
Your idea with the spackle certainly has merit. I will just have to think about how to fit it to the walls. Here is a test using some spackle over some balsa sheet that I did some time ago. The texturing was done by wading up some aluminum foil into a ball/pad and lightly pressing it onto the spackle while it was still slightly soft. The lines were indeed just scratched in using a nail.
Marcus
I like the look of that! Besides durability (as General Helstrom mentioned), weight with the spackle added may be an issue. Another idea I just thought of is, theres a compound called, i believe, pipe dope that plumbers use around pipe fittings. This may dry with some more flexibility, is slightly more expensive then spackle, but its waterproof! :-D I have no idea what it would be like to try painting on it.
To apply the spackle, could you simply lay a section of the wall flat, and let it dry that way? Then as it solidifies, start making your impressions?
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I prefer "joint compound" over spackle. It is the stuff you use when drywalling and it gets very hard.
You can also buy large buckets, ready to use for farily cheap and it lasts for a while before going bad.
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Has anyone ever tried building a castle or other structure using individual blocks cast from Hirst Arts Fantasy Architecture. One can either order the molds directly from Hirst, or there are several sites that sell packages of pre-cast blocks. The Hirst web site has great technical information on the casting process:
http://www.hirstarts.com/
I have been tempted to try it, but am not sure about the time and commitment required. If anyone has tried it it would be interesting to hear how it went.
A website for completed blocks cast by the Hirst molds:
http://stores.castlekits.com/StoreFront.bok
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Actually, I think joint compound is what I used. I certainly cannot scratch the surface with my fingernail. I don't think I would try to fill the entire backside of the walls with joint compound. I could possibly cut out a mating piece of cardboard, glue that in place and then coat and texture.
As for the weight: The heavier the better. Some mass keeps it in place on the table, and lends the piece a bit more durability.
I don't think that the plumbers putty gets hard enough without becoming kind of crumbly.
Marcus
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If you're just looking to fill in one side of the walls to bulk them out and to give you a work surface to add Plastruct sheets (with cut stone relief, etc.), you could use Great Stuff spray styrofoam sealent. It'll be firm, lightweight and easy to shape once it's dry and cured. It'll shore up the walls nicely. Adding rock texture by scoring cuts and such (like what one would do to R-Max or the various blue or pink styrofoams) to simulate joints and mortar is doable as well. Not necessarly as good as one might achieve with blue or pink styrofoam, but possible.
I've found the biggest problem being that one must carefully spray in the foam to avoid air pockets forming (which make believeable rock surfaces hard to achieve once you start cutting into it). Even if you're very diligent when spraying it in, the chemical reactions involved are still going to yield some bubles regardless. Also, the foam is pretty dense, and so requires different handling techniques. However, since it's the interior of the castle, it'll be slightly less visible. Along the interior walls you could abutt buildings and lean-tos (which are pretty common in many castles I've seen) which would further mask the walls. The interior stonework might never match the exterior, though. The best way to achieve that would be to use Plastruct stonework sheets, or thin foamcore board overtop the styrofoam spray you used to create a working surface. Just some ideas.
Marcus
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The Lion Rock Castle looks great but has a disadvantage, its almost as expensive as the original warhammer fortress, iirc its about 69 eur.
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Rufas: I would not recommend Hirst Arts for building a castle. Although it's a fine product with many great uses, anything much larger than a guardhouse would be a horrendous task. Hell, even the guardhouse took us long enough :) Even if you use the wall mold (or better yet, a few of them, and some regular block and accessory molds, setting up a production line), casting enough pieces to make a castle is going to be an enormous task. Then you have to build it - which I guess would be kinda fun, like LEGO. But once built, it will weigh a ton, which is going to cause problems in storage, transport, and handling.
There is one "maybe" - maybe if you use one or more different materials. Something that sets quicker and weighs less. Here (http://www.shiftinglands.com/helmsdeep01.htm) is an article of some guy who build Helm's Deep using HA molds and resin. You could experiment with different stuff.
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I would have to agree with the General Rufas. I have looked at the Hirst product several times but the cost kind of threw me off. Sooo... being the cheapskate I am, I made my own, sort of. :-D I cut up a bunch of 1/4" thick cheap hardboard into 1/4" strips and then cut those into blocks of varying lengths. I roughed-up the edges with a Dremell rotary tool before I cut out the individual blocks, Then just drug the ends across some sandpaper to bevel them a bit.
The major problem is the tedium of stacking all the blocks, not to mention making them. Here is a shot of a finished wall section, an unfinished corner section, a gate post, and some unassembled blocks.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a32/rcraig/101_0776.jpg)
I made twelve of the wall sections and it was pretty time consuming. I would not want to do an entire castle this way, though it would probably look pretty cool!
Marcus
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Playmobil stuff is indeed out of scale, way too large. I think Mebabloks sets might be just what's needed size-wise, they are also much more esthetically pleasing than /ugly/ LEGOs. Thing is, I cannot find any on the internet, although (I think) I seen some in stores. Meanwhile, the closest Empire-related thing from Megabloks I've seen so far is this:
http://www.megabloks.com/en/products/description.php?level=2&level2=1&lId=0&iID=836&subCat=25&cat=1 (http://www.megabloks.com/en/products/description.php?level=2&level2=1&lId=0&iID=836&subCat=25&cat=1)
Not really a castle, but maybe useful if you're planning to beat some baddies off the coast. And very pretty.
/keeps skimming through sites skifor megabloks castles/
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As far as I know there are three of us on this site who have got Hirst Arts moulds: General H has already chimed in, and then there is Vincent of Vega, who is the head man at TWF and lastly my good self.
If you searched here, or on TWF for some of VoV's links/posts you will see his efforts - he is a maniac though as he is casting bricks 24/7 it seems. :wink:
I bought several moulds last year direct from Bruce at Hirst Arts, after much advice from VoV, and he added some moulds to the order so we both benefitted from discount for a bulk buy.
It was actually better costwise to order direct from the USA than buy in the UK, and there was more choice of moulds too I think.
Over the years I have experimented with various ways of making scenery, particularly buildings, and am reasonably happy with our woods and hills, but never felt totally happy with card or foamboard buildings, or even simple walls from bits of polystyrene.
Admittedly my painting skills do little to enhance them. :wink:
In my opinion Hirst Arts moulds are fantastic, but they do take a lot of castings to get the necessary components for a big build. Most scenery is time consuming anyway, and I had been prepared to invest the time before in something that didn't always turn out successfully anyway.
With this product you are spending time making really good components, that you know are pretty much guaranteed to look great.
The main problem is with walls - the system started I guess for Dungeons and Dragons players and there are some really nice 'architectural pieces' moulds. When you want lots of bricks for big sections of walls is where the time really bites.
Each mould is about 6" x 4", and maybe if it is practically possible the range could do with, say, a couple of large moulds just to churn out bricks in quantity.
Something 12" square for example would increase production and reduce time enormously, but I am not sure if it is a manufacturing possibility.
You need to set up an area for production and then organise yourself to just cast loads of pieces.
I get into a routine where I cast on our battle table, whilst doing other bits on my worktable in my gaming room.
I have had several plays at small pieces of scenery, and though you learn from experience, there is no doubt they are much much better than my old card polystyrene or foamboard scenery.
The other beauty is that it does have the flexibility of Lego in that what you build is only limited by your imagination.
Relevant to the initial discussion about using pre-made castles I did a lot of exploring on this a couple of years back, and certainly what has been posted is pretty cost effective, and good imaginative accessorising, converting and painting goes a long way, but I always found something that put me off, mainly arising from these other points that we had considered:
The wall heights - we have siege towers and ladders, so they need to be compatible.
The ramparts space as well, is critical - you need to allow for the various bases combinations that might be invoved in battle. Current siege rules I think, allow a single rank of each army to fight, so immediately you could have 2 infantry bases 25x25, but what happens if you need to make room for a character or monster base on 40 or 50mm bases as well?
Then there is the need for room for war machines - a lot of the towers I have seen do not have appropriate space.
The interiors too - to comment on the 'back of the walls' bit mentioned earlier, - I do feel the castle walls should look as good from the inside, and have a sense of depth and strength.
The walls of Middenheim piece shown on the GW US site last year was pretty fantastic, and I particularly liked the details in the interior, such as stairways and lean-to buildings such as stabling stalls etc.
Weight for me is not an issue - something substantial will resist the gaming wear and tear much better, and I doubt any pieces will venture far from my gaming room very often anyway.
Having considered all this I felt, and still do, that a custom built solution is the real answer, and though it will take time I have made my choice...... :wink:
We are currently amassing stockpiles for our castle project.
The plan is for several basic identical wall sections that will both interlink and 'attach' to various towers.
We have worked out plans for towers built in sections that would allow the tower to be used as a stand alone, or by inserting an extra or different 'middle' section the tower would line up with the walls with appropriate doors to give access to the ramparts of the wall sections.
The object is to give us the set up variety to have a complete castle attackable from all sides, or to run a wall and tower combination right across the board.
The idealistic future would be to play a 'city' siege campaign, where the walls could fall and then you are into a 'city fight' through the streets, and maybe then going further to the Inner Keep (which is the castle bits reformed ) last stand.
[ Ok, so much like the General's current plans for his farewell to 6th Edition. :wink: ]
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My current, favorite method is to build it out of blue (or pink) styrofoam. Then lightly cut the blocks out with an exacto knife, texture it with a rough rock, then push in some blocks and "knife" some for dings, cracks and other imperfections. Paint and drybrush and you are done. It looks great, is sturdy enough after you seal it and low cost.
Just be sure and paint/drybrush it fairly quickly after you texture since it can spring back some over time.
US GW has some articles on this method.
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Rufas -
I'm actually a fan of the Hirst molds. They work great and look really good. Having said that though, there are some serious downsides that you need to consider.
When Bruce says you need to pour this mold 17 times to make this piece, he's really says, it'll take months to make enough bricks. It takes about a half an hour to do a pouring, but somehow, that always turns into one or two a day. You'll always need to pour more than need because of voids too. Then they need to dry. Three days seems about right.
If you decide to go this route, try to get dental plaster. You can drop it from waist height and not break it. Lightweight Hyrdocal isn't recommended, but I've used it. It works fine and weighs a lot less.
Resin is my favorite material. It mixes and sets and in 10 minutes and once it sets, the bricks are ready to use. There are several downsides to using resin though. First, you'll need a level surface. With plaster, you can over pour and scrape the excess, with resin, if you overpour, your bricks will be misshaped. You need a piece of glass to ensure the bottoms are smooth for usability.
Second, you need mold release. Liberal amounts sprayed on the mold and the glass work very well, but also prevent paint from sticking to the finished bricks. You need to seriously scrub them and depending on the texture, you may not get it all off. It's not the end of the world, it's just a pain.
Third, resin can cause respiratory problems for a small percentage of people. Be careful, use a mask and don't use it around small children and pets.
I agree with Midaski that buying in bulk is cheaper overall. Buying multiples of the same mold can also reduce the turn-around time for making a piece. However, I'd suggest picking up the small brick mold to start with. It's an extremely useful mold.
You can make wells, custom bases, garden walls, altars, shrines etc. with it. You can usually start making pieces with a single pouring as well. I think it's a good place to start as it'll give you an idea of what's involved and it is usable almost immediately.
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I hate you guys sometimes. As if I didn't have enough stuff to work on you point me at Hirst molds and I am now trying to figure out which ones to get. Between this and my recent board game fixation I feel fairly comfortable in saying that my kids will no longer need to watch TV or play video games and I am very happy with that. Once you mentioned Legos I was done for. The boys and I can spend some serious time playing with blocks of any sort so this is going to be a new era in my family and I have you guys to thank for it. Now I'm loving you guys ... maybe the near release of the new rules is making me all emotional and stuff. Don't look at me ... sniff ...
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This probably won't help...
Legos are actually a good substitiution for Hirst bricks. You need to file the edges of each brick to create a bevel, texture the surface for painting, and glue the bricks together, but the results can be quite impressive.
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I agree wholeheartedly with above posts that DIY terrain, especially such as by Marcus and other dab handsat this website, is head and shoulders above anything money can buy, but for the folks lazy/unskilled as myself, I - no, didn't find anything from Megabloks - but came upon the Russian Zvezda's castles and stuff, as seen here:
http://ageofbattles.ru/index.php?lng=eng&nav=accessories (http://ageofbattles.ru/index.php?lng=eng&nav=accessories)
These are affordable by any standards, appear to be quite decent and, above all, are about the right size. Occasionally the parts may refuse to fit, but that should not be much of a problem to an Empire player who has ever assembled the steam tank. The only problem is I cannot find any online store or anything of the kind at the site. If anyone can, please let me know how you did it.
Oh, and I retract my criticisms of LEGO - just yesterday me and my son happened to build our first ever lego police van, and had loads of fun.
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Zvezda's stuff looks great and Imperial Forge had a post and some pics of their minis as well some time ago.
http://www.warhammer-empire.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,74/topic,820.msg9167#msg9167
I think a few of us hunted for sources, and to confirm the scale, but were unsuccessful - discussion in this topic.
http://www.warhammer-empire.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,74/topic,6460.0
IIRC 'Urban Mammoth' did have a box or two of the minis at Salute 2005.
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I've got me 3 of the various castles that are made by Zvezda, they are fantastic. The scale is pretty much spot-on, and the best bit is that they produce wall extensions and single towers to upsize your castle. Cheap as chips is the part I liked best when I was buying them, for the price of a GW fortress I bought 2 of the Zvezda royal castles, good or what?
Not too sure how much use this will be to those not in Australia, but have a look at Frontline Hobbies' website, they have all the Zvezda gear, and they do mail order all over the joint. With the $AU as weak as it is, those of you in the UK, and US, shouldn't be too hurt by the cost of them. If any of you have dramas with getting hold of stuff from Frontline, PM me, I have a man on the inside....
cheers
duckman
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Oops, should have looked Zvezda up on the forums before posting. The controversy about the scale is confusing though, especially when Duckman says it's spot-on. Which is more than convincing, so I'll probably try to get ahold of a Zvezda castle or two 8)
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@Duckman:
I'm a bit confused, a search for 'Zvezda royal castle' only finds me a kit that is described as a 1/72 kit.
Like here for example: http://www.modelsforsale.com/catalog/modelkits.php?manufacturers_id=13861%3FZvezda&sort=3a&page=5
Is that really the castle you're talking about?