Warhammer-Empire.com
The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Topic started by: TexasYankee on May 31, 2011, 11:56:46 PM
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Okay, so one of my Chaos homies has the Armor of Damnation, which states attackers must re-roll all successful hits in close combat. What if the attacker can re-roll to hit? (ASF>I/Hatred/etc). How does this work out? Does the universe implode??? ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic::
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GW have answered this in several different ways in the past!
But I think the easiest thing to do is say that the two things cancel out. So don't reroll anything.
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I don't think they actually cancel each other out since they aren't opposing effects. The chaos item makes you reroll the successful hits and the hatred/ASF lets you reroll the failed hits -- so I'd just reroll the whole lot again.
Or cancel it out and save time :biggriin: Though I imagine if you got a boatload of hits, he'd want you to reroll (and vice-versa), so just reroll them all IMO.
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I don't think they actually cancel each other out since they aren't opposing effects. The chaos item makes you reroll the successful hits and the hatred/ASF lets you reroll the failed hits -- so I'd just reroll the whole lot again.
+1 this
An because you can never re-roll a re-roll the hatred does not allow you to re-roll the failed hits from the re-roll of the successful hits and nor must your (because of the chaos thing) re-roll the successful hits of the failed hits.
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So basically, you roll all the dice.
Then you roll them again.
And that's it?
I've always avoided threads about rerolls and chaos items... not healthy.
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as far as I can tell yes
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I don't think they actually cancel each other out since they aren't opposing effects. The chaos item makes you reroll the successful hits and the hatred/ASF lets you reroll the failed hits -- so I'd just reroll the whole lot again.
Yes, but that's ridiculous. What's the point of the first roll then?
They cancel out, or both players die of stupidity!
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I don't think they actually cancel each other out since they aren't opposing effects. The chaos item makes you reroll the successful hits and the hatred/ASF lets you reroll the failed hits -- so I'd just reroll the whole lot again.
Yes, but that's ridiculous. What's the point of the first roll then?
They cancel out, or both players die of stupidity!
Indeed but you might get a different roll the second time :)
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I say they settle it with machetes.
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Not really ridiculous or stupid. You can get a totally different outcome.
Well, say a lord with hatred attacks a chaos dude who has this item and rolls 4 hits and misses 1 time. Sure the chaos guy is going to want him to roll those 4 dice again -- they could all turn out to be misses. And the lord will want to reroll his miss because it might turn out to be the only hit he gets.
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But the dice are always going to be rerolled no matter what the result of the first roll. So the first roll is meaningless and a complete waste of time! Skip it!
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But the dice are always going to be rerolled no matter what the result of the first roll. So the first roll is meaningless and a complete waste of time! Skip it!
But can you have the second roll without the first roll
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Stop winding me up! This is a silly argument.
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Machetes.
It makes sense.
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Stop winding me up! This is a silly argument.
Of course it is a silly argument, the answer is in the third post. Wether or not the argument is silly does not take away from its importance. I think you are not following the rules unless you roll the dice twice, despite the silliness involved
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I don't care about the rules.
Pass the machete.
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pistols at dawn,
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I don't like to get up that early.
Pistols at lunchtime.
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Only if you bring bread rolls otherwise breakfast is as late as I can do
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Trust me -- with some people it will be fine with one roll -- until it's a roll they don't like, then they'll insist on going through the reroll.
I'd do it with one roll if your opponent is cool with it; if you want to avoid any quibbling with someone who lives for procedure, do both sets of rolls. It's no big deal either way if there is no bickering.
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Trust me -- with some people it will be fine with one roll
The important question though is "Is it a bread roll?" and "Are you joining the pistols at lunch?"
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I prefer 3 or more rolls -- preferably crusty ones with butter.
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Thank you, brothers, for your infinite wisdom. My mind was about to explode with trying to figure this all out, and then someone mentioned machetes . . . and then it all made sense . . . of course, as an American, I would prefer pistols, perhaps not at dawn, but certainly in Weehawken.
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Well...
The chaos armour makes you reroll all hits;
Hatred allows you to reroll all misses.
All rolls are either hits or misses, so yes you just have to reroll everything I'd say.
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I was in a bad mood until I read this post...
I would roll all the dice twice just because. In a chaotic world, it is the only sane thing to do.
As for the pistol duel...whatever time, whatever place, whatever.... but use revolvers with only one bullet and spin them Russian Roulette style before starting.
But you only get to pull the trigger twice...cuz you can never re-roll a re-roll. :unsure:
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I go with Rufus on this one....as he loves me.
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I was in a bad mood until I read this post...
I would roll all the dice twice just because. In a chaotic world, it is the only sane thing to do.
As for the pistol duel...whatever time, whatever place, whatever.... but use revolvers with only one bullet and spin them Russian Roulette style before starting.
But you only get to pull the trigger twice...cuz you can never re-roll a re-roll. :unsure:
Sir, I am surprised. A dueling pistol has only one shot.
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I was in a bad mood until I read this post...
I would roll all the dice twice just because. In a chaotic world, it is the only sane thing to do.
As for the pistol duel...whatever time, whatever place, whatever.... but use revolvers with only one bullet and spin them Russian Roulette style before starting.
But you only get to pull the trigger twice...cuz you can never re-roll a re-roll. :unsure:
Sir, I am surprised. A dueling pistol has only one shot.
Not in my chaotic world...
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I was in a bad mood until I read this post...
I would roll all the dice twice just because. In a chaotic world, it is the only sane thing to do.
As for the pistol duel...whatever time, whatever place, whatever.... but use revolvers with only one bullet and spin them Russian Roulette style before starting.
But you only get to pull the trigger twice...cuz you can never re-roll a re-roll. :unsure:
Sir, I am surprised. A dueling pistol has only one shot.
Not in my chaotic world...
Surely the College of Engineers has created a repeating dueling pistol??? But you you still have to take the multi-shot -1 to hit . . . with re-rolls . . . :-D
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I don't think they actually cancel each other out since they aren't opposing effects. The chaos item makes you reroll the successful hits and the hatred/ASF lets you reroll the failed hits -- so I'd just reroll the whole lot again.
+1 this
An because you can never re-roll a re-roll the hatred does not allow you to re-roll the failed hits from the re-roll of the successful hits and nor must your (because of the chaos thing) re-roll the successful hits of the failed hits.
A perfect answer. :::cheers:::
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On our tournaments we was playing like this first you have normal roll ( let say 4 attacks on 4+ you roll 2 hit and 2 miss) then re-roll from hate(or something like hate 2 on 4+ then you hit 1) then roll all hits (and now roll 3 attacks on 4+ again either to confirm hit either to miss) so we play like this :smile2:
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Kirgan's answer sounds fair enough.
If however the two players had decided to reroll everything - the hits and misses (i.e. every dice) in the first attack roll, then I would suggest rolling once and counting that result, as rolling twice and knowing you're going to utterly ignore the first roll is meaningless.
You might as well pick up the dice and say "Assume I just rolled my first, pointless roll. Now, this counts as my second roll." To roll for the sake of rolling only then to pick them all up and roll again is a waste of time, and only worth doing if your doing it for joke effect.
That said, I have seen people roll dice for dafter reasons just for the 'fun' of it. Me, I've rolled too many dice over the decades to derive my fun from the mere physical act of rolling!
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I would just take the sensible solution and roll with it.
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I would just take the sensible solution and roll with it.
Or decide on two sensible solutions and roll for which one to do.
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That sounds a bit dicey though.
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I'm dying to know what your next joke will be.
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I try to avoid being banned, thank you very much. :biggriin:
Congratulations on your 1000th post, incidentally.
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Wow, hadn't noticed. Cool. 1000. Or shooold I say - Wooow. Coool.
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To roll for the sake of rolling only then to pick them all up and roll again is a waste of time, and only worth doing if your doing it for joke effect.
Thank you!
Someone sensible at last.
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The rule says you re-roll successful rolls to hit, and failed rolls to hit. Not doing so would be against the rules, and doing so can actually significantly affect the outcome of the roll. If you miss with all your attacks, you're going to want to re-roll. Likewise, if you hit with all your attacks, your chaos opponent will want you to re-roll. So just do what the rule says, and then you don't have to argue about it.
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Or say "Assume I just rolled the utterly pointless roll that counts for absolutely nothing and will be ignored. K? Right, here's the roll that will count." Then roll the dice.
CoDoom, why on earth would anyone bother rolling a roll that is always going to ignored, whether it is good, bad or indifferent? You could, to exactly the same effect roll the dice under a box, never look at them, then pick them up and do the re-roll.
Just state that this is to be your 'second' roll, ands roll once. If anyone argued that was cheating, then you're playing a mad-man - smile, keep your guard up (but don't show it) and back slowly out of the room.
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Or say "Assume I just rolled the utterly pointless roll that counts for absolutely nothing and will be ignored. K? Right, here's the roll that will count." Then roll the dice.
CoDoom, why on earth would anyone bother rolling a roll that is always going to ignored, whether it is good, bad or indifferent? You could, to exactly the same effect roll the dice under a box, never look at them, then pick them up and do the re-roll.
Just state that this is to be your 'second' roll, ands roll once. If anyone argued that was cheating, then you're playing a mad-man - smile, keep your guard up (but don't show it) and back slowly out of the room.
Because it's the rules? And if you just play by the rules there'll be no argument or confusion? And what if you roll all hits? Then your chaos player will WANT you to re-roll, however silly you might think it is. It WILL affect the outcome, so it MUST be done, if only to avoid any confusion or arguments.
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ridiculous
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@ C o D -
That's why I suggested you tell the chaos player "This IS my second roll." You can't reroll your second roll good or bad.
If the player says "No. I insist you roll the pointless roll that we are not gonna count, the roll both of us shall ignore, the complete and utter waste of time roll. Do it!" then maybe you've got yourself in with the wrong crowd of players ? I certainly would inwardly question the level of anal retentiveness the guy had reached.
Or, like you said, we keep the guy happy and roll the pointless roll. Pander to him to keep the peace. Pretend there is point to it. State this is your first roll, then carefully count it all up. Put the hits in one hand and call them holy. The misses in another hand and bless them. Join the two piles together again with a short service of matrimony, declare loudly that the slate is now wiped clean. Then do a three verse song and dance about the fact you are going to do the second roll. Then ... wait for it ... not quite yet ... and then .... yes, now - make the second roll. Return to normality.
If you have the time.
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I think we understand where you stand rufus ha ha
But others don't think it's ridiculous. It's going to take what - an extra minute at the most? Some people, when they make that 1st bad roll are going to be itching to reroll because they know they have the option. Let them play by the rules and have their fun - if you and your mate want to do it in one roll, knock yourself out.
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do you ahve to re roll that?
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I'm Padre, not Rufus. Mind you we do look like twins. Virtually identical in every way.
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If the rules say to re-roll, then I see no reason not to take the extra half second (for your, what, 4 - 6 attacks, maybe?) to reroll all of the dice, so that no issue ever comes up. Because sure as I sit here, you will tell your opponent: "This counts as my second roll." And then you'll roll all 6's, and he will demand that you re-roll. Just do what the rule says to do, and you don't have to argue.
Blarghwarrble
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Well, Padre, if you look like rufus and want to share in my response to him, feel free to!
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If the rules say to re-roll, then I see no reason not to take the extra half second (for your, what, 4 - 6 attacks, maybe?) to reroll all of the dice, so that no issue ever comes up. Because sure as I sit here, you will tell your opponent: "This counts as my second roll." And then you'll roll all 6's, and he will demand that you re-roll. Just do what the rule says to do, and you don't have to argue.
Blarghwarrble
You speak much truth.
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Armor of Dementia
Horrible forces of madness surround this armor, causing those in the vicinity to pointlessly repeat their actions.
Counts as full plate amor. The wearer, and any enemy models in base contact, must re-roll any and all dice they roll.
10 points.
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Technically, applying basic statistical understanding, armour of dementia should be 0 points.
Oh, and CoD, I don't play people like that. I haven't even encountered them yet. Guess I'm lucky. Must be hell for you if that's the sort of opponent you face, the sort of guy who won't accept that you said 'This counts as my second roll 'cos the first, quite obviously, is pointless." You say that and they say "Roll again"? Like I said, you unlucky guy. I am surprised you're still in the hobby!
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Armor of Dementia
Horrible forces of madness surround this armor, causing those in the vicinity to pointlessly repeat their actions.
Counts as full plate amor. The wearer, and any enemy models in base contact, must re-roll any and all dice they roll.
10 points.
It's not pointless. I feel like I explained why it's not pointless. :icon_sad: Squidward is mad at me? Ia! Ia! Clarinet fhtagn? :icon_cry:
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30pts :engel:
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Technically, applying basic statistical understanding, armour of dementia should be 0 points.
Oh, and CoD, I don't play people like that. I haven't even encountered them yet. Guess I'm lucky. Must be hell for you if that's the sort of opponent you face, the sort of guy who won't accept that you said 'This counts as my second roll 'cos the first, quite obviously, is pointless." You say that and they say "Roll again"? Like I said, you unlucky guy. I am surprised you're still in the hobby!
I play in a powergamer group. I have slowly come to this realization. And when they accused me of being cheezy with my 2 mortars and my O&G list with 3 whole Pump Wagons (yes, that Pump Wagon spam that is so over the top) I began to think that I should be relentless in return.
Soon ... soon they will all feel the wrath of my DOOM CANNON! And my Sword of Justice wielding fire mage of DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! And my single Stank that I own.
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DOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmm
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When you say it like that (not the Doooooom bit, the bit before) it does make Empire, even 'cheesy' Empire, and certainly as most of us play it, quite pathetic.
And I have three utterly flufflylicious Empire armies. It's a wonder I can remember any victories at all. Maybe I only ever have them when I play in campaigns against other flufflepuff armies?
One day I will sit down and try to make an army list that functions against 'real' players.
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Technically, applying basic statistical understanding, armour of dementia should be 0 points.
Oh, and CoD, I don't play people like that. I haven't even encountered them yet. Guess I'm lucky. Must be hell for you if that's the sort of opponent you face, the sort of guy who won't accept that you said 'This counts as my second roll 'cos the first, quite obviously, is pointless." You say that and they say "Roll again"? Like I said, you unlucky guy. I am surprised you're still in the hobby!
I play in a powergamer group. I have slowly come to this realization. And when they accused me of being cheezy with my 2 mortars and my O&G list with 3 whole Pump Wagons (yes, that Pump Wagon spam that is so over the top) I began to think that I should be relentless in return.
Soon ... soon they will all feel the wrath of my DOOM CANNON! And my Sword of Justice wielding fire mage of DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! And my single Stank that I own.
You mean, rod of justice.
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I'm definitely in the RIDICULOUS camp.
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it could work in your favour, re -roll the re rolled hit then re roll, but when your opponent gets really confused re-roll then re roll again, and split the dice into failed and passed, re roll them, then re roll when it hits and not, double it up , then allow for his re roll, and yours.
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Now forgive my ignorance if I have this completely wrong but you can only re-roll a dice once in the given situation correct?
When this very situation effected myself and a friend we did it thus:
The hits were put in one pile, the misses in another.*
The hit pile dice were re-rolled as per the rules for the Armour. The miss pile dice were then separately re-rolled for the Hatred. This seemed to make as much sense of the situation as we could muster. Each dice was only re-rolled once.
Were we way off base going with that method?
And when I say pile I mean a dice in each as it was just two attacks rolled, a single hit and a single miss.
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yes, but seeing as all hits are rerolled from armour, and all misses rerolled from sword, every dice you roll will 100% need to be rerolled.
So dont bother rerolling them.
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sorry about my post i was being very silly
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(http://www.ronniesunshines.com/images/hd-machete.gif)
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dont hurt me!
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yes, but seeing as all hits are rerolled from armour, and all misses rerolled from sword, every dice you roll will 100% need to be rerolled.
So dont bother rerolling them.
Ah, someone speaking plain and simple, good old fashioned and very obvious common sense. At last.
Now I can leave this thread alone and let the memory of it fade from my mind. I shall have peace.
Fare thee well, "Can't re-roll a re-roll . . ." Or should I say, good riddance?
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You guys who are all up in arms about rerollling just need to relax--don't get so indignant if some 'ridiculous' people just like to follow rules. If that's how they like to play, just take a deep breath. Let them reroll. Everything will be okay. Deep breath.
You know, on a more serious note, personally, if I have the ability to make someone reroll, I like to use it because I get great enjoyment out of watching my opponent's dismay if his great rolls are turned into terrible rolls. Call me an agent of chaos, but I like the random element of the game (hmmm, maybe why i like playing craps). So don't take my enjoyment away just because you want to take short cuts because you're in a hurry because you've got tickets to the opera or something. :icon_wink:
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If someone really wanted to roll twice I'd let them.
I just dont think anyone I would play would want to.
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loaded dice
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We play in my country(Serbia) and some neighborhood ( Croatia, Bulgaria and spouse Hungary also some Slovenian players who come in Serbia) with rules that I wrote here :engel:
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If someone really wanted to roll twice I'd let them.
I just dont think anyone I would play would want to.
You'd play me wouldn't you! :oops:
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We play in my country(Serbia) and some neighborhood ( Croatia, Bulgaria and spouse Hungary also some Slovenian players who come in Serbia) with rules that I wrote here :engel:
mate your a legend, i love it
tell me more about Eastern European backstreet Warhammer dens!
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Well we have great players here I would like to come here guys and we will play eat drink and going out and if is summer well every person with weak hart take some medicine :::cheers::: :evil: :happy: :engel:
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So basically you're inviting us for a re-roll with the misses ?
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I am always for some hanging and fun so if you wish to come I will be your guide in Belgrade (Capitol City of Serbia) :happy:
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:::A dark room somewhere in the cavernous foothills of northwest Texas . . . :::
(Yes, Father Tzeentch, I did as you ordered; I placed the post "can't re-roll a re-roll . . . " on Warhammer-Empire, and the result was just as you predicted; the loyal brothers of the Empire are now at each others throats arguing over a rule that twists their minds and haunts their souls like the vastness of eternity. They've even begun sharing stories of wife swapping in Belgrade this summer. Soon they will be ripe for the picking . . . by the time our armies reach their gates, I will unleash my minions from behind their very backs, and we will crush them like a Shaggoth swats a Gnoblar . . . not even their precious Sigmar can save them now . . . )
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:::A dark room somewhere in the cavernous foothills of northwest Texas . . . :::
(Yes, Father Tzeentch, I did as you ordered; I placed the post "can't re-roll a re-roll . . . " on Warhammer-Empire, and the result was just as you predicted; the loyal brothers of the Empire are now at each others throats arguing over a rule that twists their minds and haunts their souls like the vastness of eternity. They've even begun sharing stories of wife swapping in Belgrade this summer. Soon they will be ripe for the picking . . . by the time our armies reach their gates, I will unleash my minions from behind their very backs, and we will crush them like a Shaggoth swats a Gnoblar . . . not even their precious Sigmar can save them now . . . )
:icon_eek: :icon_eek: ::heretic::
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:::A dark room somewhere in the cavernous foothills of northwest Texas . . . :::
(Yes, Father Tzeentch, I did as you ordered; I placed the post "can't re-roll a re-roll . . . " on Warhammer-Empire, and the result was just as you predicted; the loyal brothers of the Empire are now at each others throats arguing over a rule that twists their minds and haunts their souls like the vastness of eternity. They've even begun sharing stories of wife swapping in Belgrade this summer. Soon they will be ripe for the picking . . . by the time our armies reach their gates, I will unleash my minions from behind their very backs, and we will crush them like a Shaggoth swats a Gnoblar . . . not even their precious Sigmar can save them now . . . )
Lets Chaos also come but did he can manage here that is hard task even for Tzeentch, Slaanesh and other Chaos Masters :engel:
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I saw this in the latest 40K FAQ and thought of this thread:
Q: If a unit has a special rule that lets it re-roll failed
saves and is being affected by an enemy special rule
that makes them re-roll successful saves how is this
resolved? (p25)
A: Whilst you should technically roll all the dice and
then re-roll them, just roll the saves once and apply the
results to save time.
Ha ha!
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Well unlucky for you Rufus, 40k has nothing to do with Warhammer Fantasy. :closed-eyes:
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I think you missed my point.
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There was a point?
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I think you missed my point.
I think you missed my point as I got your point (you preached from the start to handle it that way....smart and sensible, I just pulled your leg and answered in a stupid forum rules as written kind of way as the last possible straw to still stick to ....pick up all dice roll em and roll em again).
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No, my point was that it was funny.
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I am always for some hanging and fun so if you wish to come I will be your guide in Belgrade (Capitol City of Serbia) :happy:
Thanks a lot but I'm not much into hanging.
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I am always for some hanging and fun so if you wish to come I will be your guide in Belgrade (Capitol City of Serbia) :happy:
Thanks a lot but I'm not much into hanging.
What about crossburning then? :engel:
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No, my point was that it was funny.
Funny in a "Haha, it's completely unrelated!" sort of way? :icon_wink:
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Funny in a "Haha, it's completely unrelated!" sort of way? :icon_wink:
If you weren't bribing me with meltaguns I'd say something nasty to you!
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Mod abuse! Mod abuse!
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Funny in a "Haha, it's completely unrelated!" sort of way? :icon_wink:
If you weren't bribing me with meltaguns I'd say something nasty to you!
Sigged. :::cheers:::
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I saw this in the latest 40K FAQ and thought of this thread:
Q: If a unit has a special rule that lets it re-roll failed
saves and is being affected by an enemy special rule
that makes them re-roll successful saves how is this
resolved? (p25)
A: Whilst you should technically roll all the dice and
then re-roll them, just roll the saves once and apply the
results to save time.
Ha ha!
With GW being the last bastion of consistency :icon_rolleyes: we all know the Fantasy guys would answer differently :icon_razz:
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I am always for some hanging and fun so if you wish to come I will be your guide in Belgrade (Capitol City of Serbia) :happy:
Thanks a lot but I'm not much into hanging.
What about crossburning then? :engel:
In our tradition is Impaling so don't worry about hanging or else :engel:
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Crossburning is when you have a unit of Crossbows with the Banner of Eternal Flame, right?
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Crossburning is when you have a unit of Crossbows with the Banner of Eternal Flame, right?
No, is casting Flaming Sword on your Crossbows, but only if your wizard wears a white or red pointy hat.
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You're all just missing the points (imagine a Scotsman saying "pints").
:::cheers:::
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You're all just missing the points (imagine a Scotsman saying "pints").
:::cheers:::
Pints!
:::cheers:::