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Author Topic: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire  (Read 74680 times)

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #250 on: September 03, 2008, 02:00:45 PM »
Not especially.  New mortals are not out yet and I only ever used beastmen to support my mortal army. 

I think Philly and Siberious are better options for beasts.
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Offline Brionne

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #251 on: September 03, 2008, 02:30:01 PM »
I'll volunteer for writing a quick guide about Bretonnian magic...
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #252 on: September 03, 2008, 02:37:05 PM »
Go for it Brionne! I'll start up a list of To Dos for Volume 3 as soon as I get all the submissions for Volume 2 done. Thanks.  :::cheers:::
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Offline Brionne

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #253 on: September 03, 2008, 04:19:13 PM »
Bretonnian magic

Bretonnians can take two types of spellcasters, like the Empire: Prophetresses (Lord level) and Damsels (Hero level). However, unlike the Empire, the wizards are not free to choose their lores. Also unlike the Empire, the wizards provide MR: 2 in case of a Prophetress, and MR 1 for a Damsel.

In most Bretonnian armies of approximately 2000 points, you will see one type of wizard: the damsel of the lady. This kick-ass (not really) hero-level character can take two of the best lores (not really); Beasts and Life! Before I explain why these lores are not-so-good for Bretonnia, allow me to expand a bit on how Bretonnian damsels work.

If you've played Bretonnians (and even if you haven't), you might know that Bretonnian knights (ie 90% of the army) can rank up in the "lance formation," a three wide set-up that allows damsels (and prophetresses, for that matter) to be placed in the middle of the unit in order to keep the lady safe. While this obviously has its advantages (like MR, as mentioned above), it also means that the wizard has no line of sight - rendering nearly all spells from the Lore of Life useless. Some spells from the Lore of Beasts are still usefull for Bretonnians - most notably The Wolf Hunts - but generally you have very little to fear from standard Bretonnian armies Magic-wise. Usually, you will see two level 1 scroll caddies, and that's it. Threat rating: 1/10

The game changes a bit when you're facing a Phophetress. She's quite expensive, but has a serious advantage over Damsels: she can pick the lore of Heavens. However, since most other spells cast by the damsels will still be quite harmless (and thus won't drain a lot of Dispell Dice), you should have no problems dispelling the few spells that count, even if you have few Dispell Dice. Lastly, investing in a prophetress means low leadership for the Bretonnian player. You will not see this character often, save for games upwards of 3000 points.Threat rating: 4/10

Lastly, the Bretonnians can take one Wizard as a special character: the Fey Enchantress. Think of her as a Wizard Lord on a War Altar, only the spell from the Altar isn't from the Lore of Ligth but the Lord of Heavens. Ouch, right? This character packs a pretty mean magical punch, especially since she can pick any magical lore and gets +1 Power Dice from her toad familiar. This lady is a force to be reckoned with, and although she has standard weak spellcaster stats, this woman is by no means helpless in combat due to her bodyguards (Grail Knights), Unicorn (+3S on the charge!) and special abilities. However, if your opponent has specifically tailored their Army to take full advantage of the Enchantress' abilities (like allowing 2 units of Grail Knights and having more wizards) the rest of the army will be quite weak, lacking fighting characters. Like with the prophetress, unsupported she will be manageable (but remember the free lore-of-heavens spell!), supported by one or more damsels she still will be mangeable because damsels are pretty much useless. Also, she is a special character, so don't expect to see her too often. Threat rating: 7/10 

Lastly, Bretonnian arcane items. Most of them are terrible, with one possible exception: The Silver Mirror. At 40 points, it's a Dispell Scroll that inflicts a S6 hit upon the caster. Fortunately, this is not much of a problem for Empire as you can easily heal wounded characters with your Warrior Priest.

So, that's all! Remember, when facing a standard (2250/2000 pt) Bretonnian army, their magic will be defensive, lacking offensive power except in the rarest of circumstances. When fighting Bretonnia, expect most magic to get blocked if you're targeting knights - peasants are usually fair game. Most Bretonnian armies will feature 2/3 Dispell Scrolls, and with the added MR from the Damsels they can put up quite a big wall. Fortunately, they're not going to hurt you, either.   
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #254 on: September 03, 2008, 05:09:31 PM »
Nice work Brionne. Thanks.

I will add a note here that I wouldn't entirely discount the Lore of Light. I've had a great deal of luck with Light Magic from the War Altar. Cleansing Flare is sweet if you can get the caster within range of multiple enemy units.

Do the Bretonian casters have to roll for spells as normal?
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Offline Brionne

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #255 on: September 03, 2008, 05:19:37 PM »
Nice work Brionne. Thanks.

I will add a note here that I wouldn't entirely discount the Lore of Light. I've had a great deal of luck with Light Magic from the War Altar. Cleansing Flare is sweet if you can get the caster within range of multiple enemy units.

Do the Bretonian casters have to roll for spells as normal?

I don't quite understand... I'm not dissing the Lore of Light, it's just that the Fey Enchantress has an item that lets her randomly cast a spell from the Lore of Heavens every turn. Bretonnian casters do indeed roll for spells as normal - I'm not 100% sure about the Fey Enchantress, will look that up later.
I can expand a bit more if you like, just let me know!
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #256 on: September 03, 2008, 05:22:59 PM »
I can expand a bit more if you like, just let me know!

Hey - this will be in the War Room for posterity! ... or until the 8th edition comes out. It will only be as good as the amount of work you want to put into it. If you have more to add, please do. It will have your name on it.
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Offline johnwayne

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #257 on: September 04, 2008, 11:06:04 AM »
I have a quick question about the "Curse of the Years"-spell from the vampire lore: If the entire unit died from old age and a character survives, does he still count as the original unit? Ie, is that character still aging?
And if that character subsequently joins another unit, what happens to the curse?

Offline WallyTWest

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #258 on: September 04, 2008, 12:39:57 PM »
That is a fantastic guide to lores. Thankyou, magic was the weakest part of my game.  :::cheers:::

If we had 2-3 more guides like that for other empire things, i think it would go far in improving player quality.

Also, the lore cards are gone in your link. (I cant get to em') any chance they are hosted somewhere?
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #259 on: September 04, 2008, 12:52:24 PM »
I have a quick question about the "Curse of the Years"-spell from the vampire lore: If the entire unit died from old age and a character survives, does he still count as the original unit? Ie, is that character still aging?
And if that character subsequently joins another unit, what happens to the curse?

I don't know - we don't have a Vampire Magic summary yet. Anyone here who can answer that wanna write something up for Vampires?
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #260 on: September 04, 2008, 12:53:45 PM »
That is a fantastic guide to lores. Thankyou, magic was the weakest part of my game.  :::cheers:::

If we had 2-3 more guides like that for other empire things, i think it would go far in improving player quality.

Also, the lore cards are gone in your link. (I cant get to em') any chance they are hosted somewhere?

Yeah I noticed that too. It's probably still there, but when they redid the GW site, the links were probably changed. I'll see if I can find it and post a link here and ask Calvin to update the Tactica.
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #261 on: September 04, 2008, 12:55:21 PM »
I'm not sure.  For some reason I get the impression from asking the VC player in my group that should he leave the unit while the spell is on them, then he escapes, where as if hes in the unit when the rest is destroyed, the curse remains on him as he is still technically the unit.

Would appreciate someone who has direct experience of this giving their two pence worth though!
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Offline Gneisenau

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #262 on: September 04, 2008, 12:57:44 PM »
I don't know - we don't have a Vampire Magic summary yet.

We have some measly spell descriptions in the VC tactic, though. Not that I give anything on those...

Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #263 on: September 04, 2008, 01:02:55 PM »
I don't know - we don't have a Vampire Magic summary yet.

We have some measly spell descriptions in the VC tactic, though. Not that I give anything on those...

 :smile2: Are you volunteering to give us a better idea of what we can face?  :engel:


As to the magic card link, I can't find it anymore, but I have downloaded a PDF copy of it. PM me with your e-mail address and I'll e-mail it to you.
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Offline johnwayne

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #264 on: September 04, 2008, 01:15:13 PM »
if GW doesn't put it online anymore, I don't see how they can legally prohibit anyone from doing so, since its not cutting in their profits

Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #265 on: September 04, 2008, 01:54:50 PM »
if GW doesn't put it online anymore, I don't see how they can legally prohibit anyone from doing so, since its not cutting in their profits

Under copyright law they have the right to control distribution of anything they create. This particular piece was available free of charge, but I would be reluctant to push my luck by making it publicly available on their behalf. If you want a copy of it, feel free to PM me with your e-mail address and I'll send it to you, but I would strongly recommend that it not be posted on this forum.
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #266 on: September 04, 2008, 02:06:49 PM »
You mean under US copyright law Perambulator.  Unless you happen to have a good working knowledge of the UK system too.

However you are right, they created it, they retain the rights for pretty much forever.
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Offline johnwayne

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #267 on: September 04, 2008, 02:18:09 PM »
maybe, but in sovyet russia, use of sollicitor to protect copyright also cost money to you!

I still don't understand GW's use of lawyers to protect what they see as legally theirs. If someone were to put these, previously free, game-aids online here so gamers wouldn't have to go on GW's own site, we would only be helping them, right?  :ph34r:

Btw, does anybody here remember the saga behind the leadership10 comic? :p
Thinking of GW and their lawyers reminds me of it  :dry:

Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #268 on: September 04, 2008, 02:18:54 PM »
You mean under US copyright law Perambulator.  Unless you happen to have a good working knowledge of the UK system too.

However you are right, they created it, they retain the rights for pretty much forever.

Actually, the UK and the US are signatories to the Madrid protocol and will respect copyrights granted in each country. Also, the link I had was to the US site so US law applies and this is also a US based forum and we would fall under US jurisdiction.


EDIT - I think its the Madrid Protocol - I forget, but its some country....
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #269 on: September 04, 2008, 02:48:07 PM »
This forum is US but the intelectual property is owned by GW who are UK.

Don't you love cross borders legal discussions? :)
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Offline johnwayne

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #270 on: September 04, 2008, 02:50:25 PM »
is 'no copyright infringement intended' or something like that sufficient to keep lawsuits away in this case?

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #271 on: September 04, 2008, 02:52:58 PM »
I am not sure, however like perambulator, I am not willing to tempt them. 

GW have a very eager legal team who have prosecuted before.
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Offline johnwayne

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #272 on: September 04, 2008, 02:57:07 PM »
for a company that is struggling to keep their books out of the red numbers, they have a very eager lawyer squad indeed. I don't see the gain in sueing a non-profit community, especially if it's your own community...

And lawyers don't come cheap.

edit: maybe if they sacked the lawyers, they could lower the prices eh ;)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 03:02:59 PM by johnwayne »

Offline Gneisenau

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #273 on: September 04, 2008, 03:21:42 PM »
I still don't understand GW's use of lawyers to protect what they see as legally theirs.

Er, what? Should they use shotguns instead of lawyers?

for a company that is struggling to keep their books out of the red numbers, they have a very eager lawyer squad indeed. I don't see the gain in sueing a non-profit community, especially if it's your own community...

And lawyers don't come cheap.

Both UK and US allow for contingency fees though. Meaning: As long as it is damage claims, employing a lawyer will cost them hardly anything at all.

Offline johnwayne

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #274 on: September 04, 2008, 03:47:18 PM »
Shotguns? not what
I'm talking about on who they are using their lawyers on. - the community who distributed the game aides on their own.

I have nothing against a company protecting their own assets, but sending in the troops to claim back something you were'nt making any money on, doesn't sound right.

edit: can they claim damage if a) they didn't lose money b) the other party didn't make money from it?