Topic: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer

[Darknight]

They kill.
They murder each other.
They take slaves.
They heart assassins.

But they do in in a very organized fashion.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Not if they would do that in an orderly, organised and burocratic fashion. But they do not.

Edit: ninja'ed by Darknight. I guess, that must mean he is bitter and upset...

[Gneisenau]

I dunno. You'd have to be pretty organized for doing that over hundreds of years in a sustainable fashion.

You'd also have to be very... "organized" in order to be a dying race despite revering a god of fornication.

[wilsonthenarc]

I get the typical D&D 3x3 grid:
X-Axis is: Lawful - - Neutral - - Chaotic
Y-Axis is: Good - - Neutral - - Evil

Warhammer Dark Elves are Lawful evil, yes?

Lawful good (LG) creatures can be counted on to do the right thing as expected by society. Gold dragons, paladins, and most dwarves are lawful good.

Neutral good (NG) folk do the best they can to help others according to their needs. Many celestials, some cloud giants, and most gnomes are neutral good.

Chaotic good (CG) creatures act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others expect. Copper dragons, many elves, and unicorns are chaotic good.

Lawful neutral (LN) individuals act in accordance with law, tradition, or personal codes. Many monks and some wizards are lawful neutral.

Neutral (N) is the alignment of those who prefer to steer clear of moral questions and don’t take sides, doing what seems best at the time. Lizardfolk, most druids, and many humans are neutral.

Chaotic neutral (CN) creatures follow their whims, holding their personal freedom above all else. Many barbarians and rogues, and some bards, are chaotic neutral.

Lawful evil (LE) creatures methodically take what they want, within the limits of a code of tradition, loyalty, or order. Devils, blue dragons, and hobgoblins are lawful evil.

Neutral evil (NE) is the alignment of those who do whatever they can get away with, without compassion or qualms. Many drow, some cloud giants, and yugoloths are neutral evil.

Chaotic evil (CE) creatures act with arbitrary violence, spurred by their greed, hatred, or bloodlust. Demons, red dragons, and orcs are chaotic evil.

[Gneisenau]

I'd argue that DE are neutral evil, as the "evil" part really overshadows everything else with them.

The unambiguously lawful evil faction would be VC, because necromancy is the ultimate form of order. Chaos Dwarfs qualify as well, for different reasons. Generic Tomb Kings would be lawful neutral, as would be Lizardmen. WElves as well, arguably, and again for different reasons. Chaotic evil would be Orcs, Chaos, and Skaven.

[wilsonthenarc]

I'd argue that DE are neutral evil, as the "evil" part really overshadows everything else with them.

D&D sez Drow (their version of Dark Elf) is Neutral Evil...
So you might be on to something there.

[Gneisenau]

I might be biased. But it's always fun to argue about alignments.

[Deuce]

I'd probably peg all three elven factions as neutral on the Law-Chaos axis. Wood Elves are probably the most lawful of the three, but they also fit the archetypal true neutral druid idea of maintaining the balance of nature, etc. All three have chaotic tendencies and a relative lack of strong central government leading to a strong individualistic streak in many cases but manage to hold things together and fall into line in quite a disciplined fashion when necessary.

Dwarves on the other hand are Lawful as anything, and the difference between the dwarven obsession with lawfulness and elven fickleness/pragmatism is probably a large part of why they didn't/don't get on all that well.

Of course individuals within each faction might have different alignments (Malekith himself might be Lawful, for instance - which might also explain why he got on with the dwarves better than almost any elf since) but I think the societies as a whole tend towards neutrality.

Inasmuch as the D&D alignments are all that useful, which is debatable.

[Dosiere]

Never really liked the alignment system myself.  It always felt like it held back good storytelling, from both pc characters and Npcs.  It helped simplify things though, but was also unrealistic in its rigidity.  Do they still use it in whatever the latest edition is? 

[stretch_135]

Hahahahahaha, I'm out. 8th Ed for life.

[Darknight]

You'd also have to be very... "organized" in order to be a dying race despite revering a god of fornication.

Well, yeah - I think that is the point. They worship a god of sex, not fertility. They are a post-modern society, in many ways.

[Warlord]

Japanese even.

[Syphon]

As for necromancy being evil, I don't think that it really is. It can be argued that necromancy is just the other side of the coin of life. It's why some clerics in DnD can either cast Harm or Heal. Besides, raising the dead is not black magic either.

Hypothetical scenario for your consideration:

You lost your spouse in a tragic accident as he/she is coming back from work. You never get to say goodbye so you're in a bad state.
Along comes Syphon the Necromancer. He offers you the chance to speak with your spouse one last time. No strings attached. He is willing to perform this service for a fee, like anybody doing their job does.

In fact, if you think about it, priests in DnD can be considered evil too, if you consider all necromancy evil. After all, they can bring the dead back to life at the temple.

[Darknight]

Japanese even.

It's a common issue in many "Western" countries - lowering birthrate (often below replacement) because of easy access to contraception. Because the access to contraception, sex and procreation are no longer linked in the minds of many people - rather, sex is seen as recreational, rather than procreational, first.

I think that is exactly what the Elves are - High Elves are a society where post-modernism works (to a degree) whereas Dark Elves are ones where it has failed.

[Darknight]

As for necromancy being evil, I don't think that it really is. It can be argued that necromancy is just the other side of the coin of life. It's why some clerics in DnD can either cast Harm or Heal. Besides, raising the dead is not black magic either.

Hypothetical scenario for your consideration:

You lost your spouse in a tragic accident as he/she is coming back from work. You never get to say goodbye so you're in a bad state.
Along comes Syphon the Necromancer. He offers you the chance to speak with your spouse one last time. No strings attached. He is willing to perform this service for a fee, like anybody doing their job does.

In fact, if you think about it, priests in DnD can be considered evil too, if you consider all necromancy evil. After all, they can bring the dead back to life at the temple.

Isn't the difference between necromancy and other resurrection magics usually something like "You come back as a zombie" or enslaved spirit etc. vs. "You come back to life"?

[Syphon]

That's a distinction people put on it to judge necromancy. ANY magic that deals with death, including healing, can be called necromancy. It's all PR that vitamancers put out there to make people just their services and theirs alone.

[Syn Ace]

I dunno, I always understood necromancy to be more along the lines of summoning spirits and animating corpses, not really restoring them back to a proper life.

[Darknight]

That's a distinction people put on it to judge necromancy. ANY magic that deals with death, including healing, can be called necromancy. It's all PR that vitamancers put out there to make people just their services and theirs alone.

Which sounds purely like necromantic spin ....

[Syphon]

I'm not a necromancer, though. In that I take much of the same approach as with witchcraft and seances. I think there might be something out there, but I'm smart enough not to go ringing its doorbell and running away.

[T.D.]

Lot of casual racism going on in this thread.

We are the good guys!

"Hegemony is as old as (elf)kind"
- Zbigniew Brzezinski*

*Kislevite Noble now languishing in the dungeons of the Witch King**
**and no, the Warhammer World didn't blow up.  Propaganda.

[Shadespyre]

Interesting stuff about alignment (the old AD&D system never quite fitted with Warhammer, but fun to try) but I feel I should point out that in all likelihood ALL OF THE CURRENT RACES WILL BE REPLACED. So the behaviour of current Dark Elves may actually be irrelevant to the forthcoming Shaddeaux Alfs or whatever they get called.

[wilsonthenarc]

Shaddeaux Alfs

Bwahahahahaha

[T.D.]

So the behaviour of current Dark Elves may actually be irrelevant to the forthcoming Shaddeaux Alfs or whatever they get called.

[Syn Ace]

I feel I should point out that in all likelihood ALL OF THE CURRENT RACES WILL BE REPLACED. So the behaviour of current Dark Elves may actually be irrelevant to the forthcoming Shaddeaux Alfs or whatever they get called.

Pretty much. I could see different flavors of Aelfs that you can mix and match into an army, but no more Hatred like you had between HE and DE. Actually, looks like no more hating at all in AoS.

[Baron von Klatz]

I feel obligated to put down some of these alignment tributes, enjoy.

Neutral evil
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6e9OM25qDV4

Lawful good
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1fJK841IWTE

Lawful chaotic
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QBYh9Wru8T0

Chaotic good
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T6hW20zwhDI