Warhammer-Empire.com
The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => The Parade Ground => Topic started by: StealthKnightSteg on April 01, 2010, 06:33:42 PM
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This is my thread for Army list posting and reviewing.
Link to my Blog: http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=32604 (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=32604)
Link to my Battle Reports: http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=33259 (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=33259)
Link to my Lizardmen Blog: http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14667 (http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14667)
Link to my Lizardmen Armylists: http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14389 (http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14389)
Link to my Lizardmen Battle Reports: http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14666 (http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14666)
Original first post:
Alright so I finally got a battle ahead for me and a friend. Just to get to know the basics again we decided on the following:
500 point battle
maximum 1 hero (no wizard)
minimum 2 core units
maximum 1 special unit
0 rare units
and a maximum of 25 points for magic items instead of 50
He will most likely play skaven, but could also play dwarfs or VC.
If he is lucky he will have invited another friend with a lizardmen army. So we have some nice play options to go with.
So this is what I came up with:
Character - 105 pts
50 pts - Captain of the Empire
(Pistol, Full plate armour, Shield, Barded warhorse, Hammer of Judgement)
105 pts
Core - 292 pts
115 pts - 5 Knights (of the Blazing Sun)
121 pts - 16 Swordsmen (Full command) - Captain here
56 pts - 7 Crossbowmen detachment
Special - 100 pts
100 pts - Cannon
Total: 497 pts
So what do you guys think?
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Ok, given there is no need for magic defence and you only have one hero I would not take the warrior priest. He costs almost twice as much as the captain for poorer combat stats and weaker equipment choices. Plus, you will not be getting any prayers off.
A captain w/ the armor of metoric iron and a great weapon or mounted(either on a pegasus in which case swap the great weapon for a halberd or go mundane armor and take a lance, or go all mundane on a barded warhorse w/ a shield and lance) would be my choices.
At 500 w/ no rare choices there should be little to nothing that warrants a great cannon so I would probably opt for the mortar.
At 500 points are you guys using warband rules? As that will change your min unit size which can allow you some more flexibility.
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Ok, given there is no need for magic defence and you only have one hero I would not take the warrior priest. He costs almost twice as much as the captain for poorer combat stats and weaker equipment choices. Plus, you will not be getting any prayers off.
A captain w/ the armor of metoric iron and a great weapon or mounted(either on a pegasus in which case swap the great weapon for a halberd or go mundane armor and take a lance, or go all mundane on a barded warhorse w/ a shield and lance) would be my choices.
At 500 w/ no rare choices there should be little to nothing that warrants a great cannon so I would probably opt for the mortar.
At 500 points are you guys using warband rules? As that will change your min unit size which can allow you some more flexibility.
I was already worried about the performance of the WP especially getting prayers off versus the standard 2 dispel dice my opponent would get..
I will look into getting a CotE though it won't be on a pegasus (don't have that yet).
About replacing the cannon for a mortar I'm not to sure about... with the cannon I wanted to take snipe shots at his general / hero. With a mortar I just need to be lucky with getting full hits on his units.
And no we don't use the warband rules, just the plain rules from 7th edition with the already noted extra restrictions.
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I replaced the Warrior Priest with a Captain and due to having a few points left added 2 more crossbowmen to the detachment.
The idea is to take out the enemy character with the cannon and to play a sit and wait game till they get in charge range to get the frontal attack with my swordsmen (with captain) en flank the unit with my knights hoping to clean them up as fast as possible.
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So I did the battle versus Skaven
2 units of 20ish clanrats each with a ratling gun
1 general (with some sword that takes 1 Toughness down each successful wound, and shield that gives -1 attack (till minimum of 1) on the attacker)
2 Rat Ogres with packmaster
The general went in to one of his clan rat units
I tried to snipe the general multiple times with my cannon, first time I over shot the unit and the second time I just hit the last rank in the unit.
This unit came through the middle towards my swordsmen unit with the captain (unit of crossbow men right behind it on a hill (1st elevation) cannon behind that on top of the hill. And I had my knights on the left flank where his Ogres came up.
He put his 2nd unit forward behind trees on my right flank.
I was hoping to flank charge his main unit on turn 3 after he failed his charge on my swordsmen, but his rat ogres doomed up really close and I decided to charge them instead.
They failed miserable after a won fear test. Didn't do any damage and he killed 2 of my knights which lost the combat. So I turned and fled and in the following turn they fled of the table.
My cannon and the crossbowmen on the otherhand had better luck with the 2nd unit of clanrats. He needed to reform to get his unit past his ratling gun and the trees (only able to squeeze through with a 3 wide rank), because he didn't want to loose the shooting of his ratling gun.
So in my turn the cannon took aim and hit 6 ranks of the 7 total and killed 5, and my crossbowmen took another 3 down. He then lost his panic test and next turn they also fled off the board :biggriin:
In the meanwhile my swordsmen charged the clanrat unit that failed their charge on me and he challenged my general with his. 2 rounds of combat and my general took him down and another round of combat took his clanrat family down in combat on a failed break test and they pursued them down!!
Killed the one ratling gun with my crossbowmen
They other needed to flee due to his main unit breaking from combat.
The Rat Ogres in the meanwhile tried to get to my cannon which had 2 opportunities with a grapeshot only too take out the packmaster and 1 wound on an ogre, but with the stupidity they only moved half their movement up the hill (also half movement) so they only made it into combat in the last turn killing 2 of my 3 crewmen, the 1 fled the scene and lost the cannon.
End of the game
2 Rat Ogres on his side left
1 general
4 swordsmen
1 fleeing crewmen
on my side
Captured one banner
Won the game by Massacre :::cheers:::
Coming Saturday he will have his revenge match on 750 points, 1 hero added may use a wizard and 2 special units, full magic items allowance
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So we decided to up the stakes a bit for saturday evening:
750 point battle
max 2 hero's
max magic item allowance
may choose a wizard
max 2 specials
no rare
Characters - 235 pts
105 pts - Captain of the Empire
(Pistol, Full plate armour, Shield, Barded warhorse, Hammer of Judgement)
130 pts - Battle Wizard
(Upgrade lvl 2, Rod of Power)
Core - 411 pts
115 pts - 5 Knights (of the Blazing Sun)
121 pts - 16 Swordsmen
(Full command) - Captain and Wizard here
--40 pts - 5 Crossbowmen detachment
95 pts - 15 Halberdiers
(Full command)
--40 pts - 5 Crossbowmen detachment
Special - 100 pts
100 pts - Cannon
Total: 746 pts
I upped the staying power a bit with another unit and total ranged is up by 3 and included a level 2 wizard.
Is this a good upgrade from the 500 point army or should I take some other choices?
Note: I do not have any spearmen nor more swordsmen (though I can substitute some from my militia) and I like to keep it mostly WYSIWYG in the units, for characters that will be a bit harder to do so I'm more open to just showing a character / wizard instead of matching the items.
Here you can see my actual model range:
http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=32604.msg484594#msg484594 (http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=32604.msg484594#msg484594)
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If the Captain is in the swordsmen, then I like a Captain on foot with AOMI and a Halberd. Thats 3 WS 5 S 5 attacks with a 1+ Armor Save for less points.
I would like to see the Swordsmen with a unit strenght of 20 for full rank bonus. Also in smaller games (500/750/1000) shooting is very powerful. Maybe another small detachment of handgunners to take out the smaller units of reduce his ranks and US when he charges the swordsmen.
Just my two crowns worth.
Roy VonBieder
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If the Captain is in the swordsmen, then I like a Captain on foot with AOMI and a Halberd. Thats 3 WS 5 S 5 attacks with a 1+ Armor Save for less points.
I would like to see the Swordsmen with a unit strenght of 20 for full rank bonus. Also in smaller games (500/750/1000) shooting is very powerful. Maybe another small detachment of handgunners to take out the smaller units of reduce his ranks and US when he charges the swordsmen.
Just my two crowns worth.
Roy VonBieder
The options for the captain might be interesting indeed for the lower point cost, but I did find out that having him on a horse is ideal for pursuit also the Hammer of Judgement served me really good, about half the hits I did he didn't make his Toughness test on and thus wounded automatically with no armor saves. So I'm not really convinced that it would be a better option.
I will look into getting the swordsmen unit up and add a CC detachment then and substituting the halberdier unit and their detachment for a parent shooting unit
Something like:
20 Swordsmen (complemented with militia as proxy models then)
- 5 handgunner detach
- 5 free company detach
10-15 crossbowmen
Will work out point cost later today for this option to see how big the units can actually get
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Characters - 235 pts
105 pts - Captain of the Empire
(Pistol, Full plate armour, Shield, Barded warhorse, Hammer of Judgement)
130 pts - Battle Wizard
(Upgrade lvl 2, Rod of Power)
Core - 411 pts
115 pts - 5 Knights (of the Blazing Sun)
145 pts - 20 Swordsmen
(Full command) - Captain and Wizard here
--40 pts - 5 Handgunners detachment
--35 pts - 7 Free Company detachment
80 pts - 10 Crossbowmen
Special - 100 pts
100 pts - Cannon
Total: 750 pts
So this incorporates a bigger swordsmen unit and a little more fighting aswell as more shooting, any comments to this build?
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Looks pretty good. In the future directing the cannon at the rat ogres and weapon teams would probably be the most cost effective shooting.
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So I posted the battle report in here:
http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=33259.0 (http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=33259.0)
2nd and 3rd post (1st post is the first battle of 500 we had)
Next up (don't know when yet) will be a 1000 pt battle no restrictions besides the normal rules.
I'll post a list soon for this.
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Characters - 314 pts
170 pts - Captain of the Empire
(Pistol, Full plate armour, Shield, Lance, Pegasus, Casket, Sigil of Sigmar)
144 pts - Battle Wizard
(Upgrade lvl 2, Rod of Power, Barded Warhorse)
Core - 401 pts
145 pts - 20 Swordsmen (5x4)
(Full command) - Wizard here
--48 pts - 6 Crossbowmen detachment
--50 pts - 10 Free Company detachment (5x2)
80 pts - 10 Handgunners
-- 48 pts - 6 Crossbowmen
Special - 205 pts
75 pts - Mortar
130 pts - 5 IC Knights (of the Blazing Sun)
Rare - 110 pts
110 pts - Hellblaster Volley Gun
Total: 1000 pts
I'm not really satisfied with this list, I feel that I'm missing some stuff here.
I think the Captain is good enough like this to kill his magic phase in the long run, but I don't feel comfortable with the troop setup, I think it is lacking numbers versus the Skaven Army..
Anyone got some idea's?
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Read on the wiki that it isn't really needed to take a 25 swordsmen unit at this point level. So reduced it again to 20 and with the spare 30 points I added a barded warhorse for my mage and added 1 crossbowmen per detachement I had.
Still not confident that I will beat his skaven army next time around unless he shoots himself some more :biggriin:
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750pts can be a good level for empire. With only 1 wizard allowed you could go quite magic heavy e.g.
Warrior Priest: Doomfire Ring: Sword of Battle: BWH: HA: Shield - 155
Wizard: level 2: Rod of Power: Ring of Volans - 150
21 Swordsmen: FC - 151
- 6 xbow Detachment - 40
5 Knights: Musician - 123
5 Knights: Musician - 123
4-7 PD + 3 bound spell
4-7 DD
Plop the Priest in a unit of knights and you have a decent hammer unit. The wizard can stay in the swordsmen and have one of the knights ready to counter charge when you get charged.
at 750 with only 1 wizard, few armies will have the DD to stop your spells and bounds (especially if you get a good RoV spell)
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I'll keep that in mind for another 750 point list, but at the moment I'm trying to get a feel for a 1000 point list.
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Also anyone got an idea on how to counter his gutter runners popping up behind my lines? Is there a rule on them that prevents them to deploy / enter the field within a certain range of my units for example?
Was hoping on a little more feedback on the 1000 point list.
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So I started fidling abit around and came up with this list (taking into account the models that I actually have):
2000pt list
Lords:
267pt Arch Lector on War Altar, 2h hammer, Heavy armour, Van Horstmann's Speculum (War Altar proxying by War Wagon)
230pt Wizard Lord (Life), level 4, The Crimson Amulet
497pt total (max = 500)
Heroes:
152pt CotE, BSB, full plate, Warhorse w Barding, Griffon Standard
145pt Battle Wizard (Shadow), level 2, Rod of Power, Talisman of Protection
119pt Warrior Priest, 2h hammer, Armor of Meteoric Iron
416pt total (max = 500)
Core:
316pt Knights of the White Wolf x 12 (incl Full Command)
170pt Halberdiers x 25 (incl Full Command), shields
145pt Swordsmen x 20 (incl Full Command) (proxying 2 with something?)
120pt Free Company x 20 (incl Full Command)
751pt total (minimum 25% = 500)
Detachment:
40pt Crossbowmen x 5 (to the Halberdiers)
Special:
100pt Great Cannon
75pt Mortar
175pt total (max 500)
Rare:
115pt Helstorm Rocket Battery
115pt total (max 500)
Army total: 1994
Any suggestions to this? As I don't have the 8th ED rulebook yet I don't know what new common magic items are available.
To check my model range:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=32604.msg484594#msg484594 (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=32604.msg484594#msg484594)
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To bad that I didn't receive any feedback on my 2000 point army..
I now have made a 1500 point list that I will be using next sunday versus a skaven army. I would like some feedback on what you think are the weak and/or strong points of the list I made and how to improve this. Again considering the limited number of models I have in Core.
This is a tryout game and that is why I included the Knights to see how they will perform.
Lords:
247pt Arch Lector on Barded Warhorse, Heavy armour, Sword of Power, Shield of the Gorgon, Van Horstmann's Speculum
247pt (max is 375)
Heroes:
145pt Battle Wizard (Fire), level 2, Rod of Power, Talisman of Protection
119pt Warrior Priest, 2h hammer, Armor of Meteoric Iron
264pt (max is 375)
Core:
170pt Halberdiers x 25 (incl Full Command), shields
145pt Swordsmen x 20 (incl Full Command)
96pt Crossbowmen x 12
411pt (min 375)
Special:
284pt IC Knights of the White Wolf x 10 (Mus + SB)
100pt Great Cannon
75pt Mortar
459pt (max 750)
Rare:
115pt Helstorm Rocket Battery
115pt total (max 375)
Total:
1496
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First thought I had on looking at your lists is that you need about twice as many halberdiers and swordsmen in your blocks as you have. I know your models are limited, but until you can beef those units up you will find that they are not going to do you much good. You will rarely have steadfast, and you will lose combat and run when that happens.
I never put a magic banner on my Empire BSB. I always give him protective items, like AoMI, and a Dawnstone, allowing him to have a 1+ armor save that's rerollable. If he were mounted I would give him a 4+ ward save.
Now that Initiative is so important, you REALLY need to put a magic weapon on your AL if he is using the VHS. My favorite kit is Sword of Power, Shield of the Gorgon, and VHS. That gives him a respectable armor save (hvy armor, shield, and +1 for being mounted) of 3+, and a 4+ ward. More importantly, your enemy only gets a single attack against you in a challenge, and sword of power is amazing for wounding, but Sword of Sigismund is also great, because you will normally be able to re-roll failed to-hit rolls after the first turn due to ASF and high Initiative. You want to be able to attack before your enemy does.
Knights can be effective, but you need something to hold your opponent in place while the knights flank. The Waltar can be used for that, but then if your opponent has multiple threats you will be overwhelmed just from not having enough unbreakable/steadfast units! You really need to beef your halberd and sword units.
Your next purchase, as soon as you have $20, is another mortar.
Then more halberdiers. :::cheers:::
Try your list out with somebody who is not going to crush you out of spite. I learned how to build lists by playing against somebody who was really a lot better than me. It was kind of brutal.
Against the skaven, definitely weaken their blocks with mortars and shooting before you engage them with your blocks (crossbows are awesome for this because of their better range).
Don't be afraid to cannon the abomination, even without fire. You have a good chance of killing it in 3 turns of cannon fire.
If the Abomination is really giving you trouble, throw the fire banner on your knights, and let them do the killing.
Post how your battle goes, and what problems you are having difficulty overcoming.
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I'll first concentrate on the 1500 point list before updating my 2k list..
Missing out on the 2nd mortar is why I opted for the rocket battery, after the battle sunday I'll see if that will manage enough before I get a 2nd mortar. I already was thinking about buffing my halberdiers and swordsmen asap as soon as I can aford it. That is also why I put in the big block of knights to compensate a bit...
I will play around with point allocation for the magic items on the AL, but it will mean I need to lessen some of the options I have. Less knights? Or loosing the WAltar and just mount my AL to put him in the knights?
My opponent will not crush me out of spite but he has more experience in playing then me.
I will report back on the battle with a battle report as I have done before (500 and 750 point battles against the same player still in 7th edition)
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I would take out the altar to make the points. It's kind of cheesy at 1500 points.
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made the changes in the 1500 point list on the AL, it let me add 2 more xbows to the list. and leaving me with 4 points. The AL on warhorse in the knight unit will make it much stronger and I hope I can swing it in his flank and then run up the entire battle line of his.
Battle Report of this will be there afte rthe battle (after I fully made it ofcourse)
Tnx Cannon for the tips!
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No problem. I look forward to reading your report.
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Battle Report is posted.
Still some remarks to be made about this list although I only lost the wizard and 5 swordsmen (incl champion)
Not counting my model range at the moment I had this in mind:
Lords:
247pt Arch Lector on Barded Warhorse, Heavy armour, Sword of Power, Shield of the Gorgon, Van Horstmann's Speculum
(with IC knigths)
247pt (max is 375)
Heroes:
145pt Battle Wizard (Fire), level 2, Rod of Power, Talisman of Protection
119pt Warrior Priest, 2h hammer, Armor of Meteoric Iron (with Halberdiers)
264pt (max is 375)
Core:
170pt Halberdiers x 30 (incl Full Command)
175pt Swordsmen x 25 (incl Full Command)
96pt Crossbowmen x 12
441pt (min 375)
Special:
258pt IC Knights of the White Wolf x 9 (Mus + SB)
100pt Great Cannon
75pt Mortar
433pt (max 750)
Rare:
115pt Helstorm Rocket Battery
115pt total (max 375)
Total:
1500
-26 losing 1 knight
-25 losing 25x shields on halbs
+25 adding 5 halbs
+30 adding 5 swords
Not a dramatic change but still it will give me a bit more foothold in the infantry blocks.
The Rocket Battery did more for me then the Mortar due to dice rolling sofar I'm loving it :P
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Ok, so we agreed on meeting again on the 2nd of april. On "Battle for the Pass". Already rolled for the scenery and it's getting bussy.
3x Mysterious Forest
Fence (3x 6")
2x Wall (3x 6")
Earth Blood Mere
Scree Slope
and to top it off: Encampment of Destruction (3 buildings, 1 more walls (3x 6") and a Charnel Pit)
Also we upped the army list a bit to 2k again versus Skaven
So here is my previous list that I tweeked a little bit:
(Edit: fixed the double magic armor on my AL)
2000pt list
Lords:
263pt Arch Lector on War Altar, Dawn Armour, Shield (War Altar proxying by War Wagon)
230pt Wizard Lord (Life), level 4, The Crimson Amulet
493pt total (max 25% = 500)
Heroes:
125pt CotE, BSB, Armor of Meteoric Iron, Dawnstone
103pt Warrior Priest, 2handed warhammer, Heavy Armour, Ironcurse Icon
145pt Battle Wizard (Fire), level 2, Rod of Power, Talisman of Protection
373pt total (max 25% = 500)
Core:
210pt Halberdiers x 38 (incl Full Command)
205pt Swordsmen x 30 (incl Full Command)
116pt Handgunners x 12 (incl Full Command), Marksman with brace of pistols
531pt total (minimum 25% = 500)
Special:
310pt IC Knights of the White Wolf x 10 (incl Full Command) Banner of Eternal Flame
100pt Great Cannon
75pt Mortar
485pt total (max 50% = 1000)
Rare:
115pt Helstorm Rocket Battery
115pt total (max 25% = 500)
Army total: 1997
I was thinking about maybe subbing my Handgunners for Flaggelants, but I feel that I might be missing some shooting ability.
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So after using previous list (before the last edit that corrected my blunder) I wanted to create a somewhat different list to use and to try out some of my other units to see how they would fare.
Lords:
218pt Arch Lector, Dawn Armour, Shield, Holy Relic, Shrieking Blade (3+ AS , 4+ WS) (with Halbs)
230pt Wizard Lord (Life), level 4, The Crimson Amulet
448pt total (max 25% = 500)
Heroes:
125pt CotE, BSB, Armor of Meteoric Iron, Dawnstone (with Halbs)
149pt CotE, Pegasus, FPA, Shield, Lance, Aldred's Casket of Sorcery
96pt Warrior Priest, Heavy Armour, Shield (with Swords)
130pt Battle Wizard (Shadow), level 2, Rod of Power
500pt total (max 25% = 500)
Core:
195pt Halberdiers x 35 (incl Full Command) (5x7)
+ 30pt Free Company x6 (3x2)
205pt Swordsmen x 30 (incl Full Command) (5x6)
+ 30pt Free Company x6 (3x2)
190pt Flagellants x 19 (7x2 +5 in 3rd rank)
590pt total (minimum 25% = 500)
+60
Special:
114pt Pistoliers x 5 (mus + outrider and repeater pistol)
100pt Great Cannon
75pt Mortar
289pt total (max 50% = 1000)
Rare:
110pt Helblaster Volley Gun
110pt total (max 25% = 500)
Army total: 448+500+590(+60)+289+110= 1997
I know the Flaggelant unit is a bit small (but I don't have more), anything you might want to adjust in this list?
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It looks like a pretty good list. Any changes I might suggest are purely a matter of personal preference, and wouldn't really affect how effective the list is overall.
The only thing I would really suggest is to remove the free company detachments, and use the points to give your WP a 4+ ward (Armour of Destiny).
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It looks like a pretty good list. Any changes I might suggest are purely a matter of personal preference, and wouldn't really affect how effective the list is overall.
The only thing I would really suggest is to remove the free company detachments, and use the points to give your WP a 4+ ward (Armour of Destiny).
One problem with that.. I'm at 500 from 500 Hero point allowance :unsure:
But I do feel this list gives me a whole other perspective on the battle with alot of new options to explore (now I hope to get another game in before the eurobash)
Also not so sure about fielding the formations in horde. It totally depends on how your opponent is going to deploy. Last game I didn't see any skaven unit in horde formation. 30 in 5 files was the biggest unit, fielding a horde unit against that is a pure waste of frontage. Or even a bigger risk at getting 2 units fully into your frontage.
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It looks like a pretty good list. Any changes I might suggest are purely a matter of personal preference, and wouldn't really affect how effective the list is overall.
The only thing I would really suggest is to remove the free company detachments, and use the points to give your WP a 4+ ward (Armour of Destiny).
One problem with that.. I'm at 500 from 500 Hero point allowance :unsure:
But I do feel this list gives me a whole other perspective on the battle with alot of new options to explore (now I hope to get another game in before the eurobash)
Also not so sure about fielding the formations in horde. It totally depends on how your opponent is going to deploy. Last game I didn't see any skaven unit in horde formation. 30 in 5 files was the biggest unit, fielding a horde unit against that is a pure waste of frontage. Or even a bigger risk at getting 2 units fully into your frontage.
Easy fix. Remove the level 2 (do you really need him with a level 4 and 2 priests?) and once you pay for the ward for the WP, then you can spend the rest on more Flagellants! (use free company models, they work!)
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Easy fix. Remove the level 2 (do you really need him with a level 4 and 2 priests?) and once you pay for the ward for the WP, then you can spend the rest on more Flagellants! (use free company models, they work!)
Not sure about needing the level 2 (he does carry the RoP) but was nice last game to have several options and I'm already down the options from the War Altar. If I'm losing him then my Wizard Lord needs to go to Fire as I need something to get rid of that HPA.. (knights charging with the firebanner was a mistake last time)
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Easy fix. Remove the level 2 (do you really need him with a level 4 and 2 priests?) and once you pay for the ward for the WP, then you can spend the rest on more Flagellants! (use free company models, they work!)
Not sure about needing the level 2 (he does carry the RoP) but was nice last game to have several options and I'm already down the options from the War Altar. If I'm losing him then my Wizard Lord needs to go to Fire as I need something to get rid of that HPA.. (knights charging with the firebanner was a mistake last time)
You still have 42 points that you can spend on Lords, so giving the RoP to your Wizlord should be no problem. Again, it's purely a personal preference thing. I think priests are too useful and expensive to not protect them.
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Ok swapped some stuff around a bit in my last 2k list, I'll test this list atleast for some rounds tomorrow evening
(added shield to casketsus and WP. lowered Halbs 5, upped Flags with 3 swapped out rocket battery for volley gun to test it)
Keeping the wizards and priests amount as they are, as I want to see how I will hold up with PD usage.
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So seeing as we have a tourny coming up at our local game store / club in june at 2400 points I thoughed let's take that opportunity to turn the list building around and let's see what we can manage building up with the Hammer Knight unit.
As been spoken about in:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=38009.0 (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=38009.0)
Lords:
240pt Templar Grand Master (Blazing Sun) (has FPA, Shield and Lance and barded warhorse), Sword of Sigismund (45), Dragon Helm (10), Dawnstone (25), The Other Tricksters Shard (15)
1+ AS re-rollable, 2+ ward save against flaming attacks
+1S and Always First Strike
re-roll succesfull ward saves by enemy
(with IC Knights)
I think he is now as optimally protected as can be and can dis out alot of pain with AFS on WS 6 with S5 on 4 attacks
255pt Wizard Lord (Life), level 4, The Crimson Amulet, Dispell scroll
(with handgunners)
Total: 495pt (of max 600)
Heroes:
139pt CotE (BSB) Barded Warhorse, Dawn Armour(35), Dragonbane Gem (5), Shrieking Blade (10)
2+ AS re-rollable, 2+ ward save against flaming attacks, causing Fear (possible survival increase of the unit)
(with IC Knights)
160pt Warrior Priest Barded Warhorse, Heavy Armor, Shield, Hammer of Judgement(25), Icon of Magnus(25)
2+ AS, immune to fear (also unit)
(with IC Knights)
Total: 299pt (of max 600)
Core:
220pt - 40 Halberdiers, FC (bus formation just to hold up the line)
108pt - 11 Handgunners, FC (wizard here)
136pt - 12 Handgunners, FC (HLR)
123pt - 5 Knights (mus) Lance / Shield (mob up of small units)
280pt - 28 Flaggelants
Total: 867 (max need 600)
Special:
222pt - 7 IC Knights (Blazing Sun), FC, Standard of Arcane Warding
230pt - 20 Great Swords, FC
100pt - Great Cannon
75pt - Mortar
Total: 627 (of max 1200)
Rare:
110pt - Helblaster Volley Gun
Army total: 495(lords), 299(heroes), 867(core), 627(special), 110(rare) = 2398
So this is my first attempt to get a Empire like setup as the HE list might suggest.
Cannons / mortar to soften stuff up and a little also to get some attention
Now it's time to get all of you to pitch in on how we might improve on this concept!
EDIT: miscounted on some points so did a clean up and a few adjustments
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I don't have any problems with that list EXCEPT I would take out the Standard of Arcane Warding and 2 knights and swap in 10 more greatswords.
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I don't have any problems with that list EXCEPT I would take out the Standard of Arcane Warding and 2 knights and swap in 10 more greatswords.
I can't remove 2 knights from the IC unit, that way I would loose to fast out on the "look out, sir!" roll for my TGM, BSB and WP
Arcane warding was added to make sure my normal IC knights weren't blasted to bits with magic for the above reason..
I think 20 GS will do fine next to the 28 flags to chop up the stuff that will get to my lines.
Only thing I hate now is that I'm lacking 1 big attraction point like a STank or WAltar.. but both are way to expensive for this list.. where is a normal chariot when you need one :engel:
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I'm just saying what I would do. I don't mind being ignored. :::cheers:::
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I'm just saying what I would do. I don't mind being ignored. :::cheers:::
I'm not ignoring you :unsure: I actually really appreciate your comments!!
But what you would do actually makes the idea behind the list more difficult, though I do wonder if you have other thoughts about that banner of Arcane Warding (I might think it's needed but maybe it's not)
Also what about the Lord and Hero kits? These ok?
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I think you've made a lot of 'luxury purchases' that you might be able to slim back on to fit more stuff in elsewhere. For example;
- does the Templar Grand Master really need the helm? He has a 1+ save without it
- does the Warrior Priest really need those magic items? The Hammer is a nice magic weapon but somewhat wasted on a model with only two attacks, and the Icon seems useless since the Grand Master already makes the unit Immune to Psychology.
- do the Handgunner units really need full commands? Or the hochland long rifle? (note: I like hochland longrifles, but you're playing a points-intensive list with the cavalry, so it's a valid question)
- I'm with CannonofDoom in that I also don't think the Standard of Arcane Warding is particularly useful. This is because it only protects against magic missiles, and the majority of magic missiles are S4. Knights with a 1+ armour save don't have to worry about that. Its useless against the actually dangerous spells like Pit of Shades, Dwellers, or the various debuff spells that will keep your knights from winning combat.
If you cut all that you could save 150 pts.
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+ 1 for Cannon of dooms solid suggestion of ditching the standard and having more greatswords.
For any character i think a charmed shield is a bargain. Half the price of your dragon helm and you never know if that first hit that you get the ward save from is going to be from something big that could cause multiple wounds. If not then hey, it's only 5 pts! or perhaps a small switch around and adding a potion of strength to your TGM which would make him much more usefull if he came across something with a high toughness like Ogres or a big Armour save. The sword of sigismund is a fantastic item, only slightly let down by the strength of the owner, and a potion of strength pretty much guarantees that you're a serious threat for at least a turn if something unpleasant turns up.
It's personal preference of course, but I'd 9 out of 10 times swap handgunners for crossbowmen. Unless you and your opponent deploy right on the starting blocks at the front of your deployment then you could lose a whole turns worth of shooting if you go first (my regular opponent likes to deploy 1/2 and inch back). The increased range of the crossbows means that this should never happen, also people don't seem to go quite so armour heavy in this edition preffering to add more bodies so the extra -1 save mod is often not needed. Also, as per high elves.. if your opponent has 24" shooting and you have 30" then you get the chance to soften him up first
Adding the shreiking blade is a good move.
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I think you've made a lot of 'luxury purchases' that you might be able to slim back on to fit more stuff in elsewhere. For example;
- does the Templar Grand Master really need the helm? He has a 1+ save without it
- does the Warrior Priest really need those magic items? The Hammer is a nice magic weapon but somewhat wasted on a model with only two attacks, and the Icon seems useless since the Grand Master already makes the unit Immune to Psychology.
- do the Handgunner units really need full commands? Or the hochland long rifle? (note: I like hochland longrifles, but you're playing a points-intensive list with the cavalry, so it's a valid question)
- I'm with CannonofDoom in that I also don't think the Standard of Arcane Warding is particularly useful. This is because it only protects against magic missiles, and the majority of magic missiles are S4. Knights with a 1+ armour save don't have to worry about that. Its useless against the actually dangerous spells like Pit of Shades, Dwellers, or the various debuff spells that will keep your knights from winning combat.
If you cut all that you could save 150 pts.
- For the Armor save he doesn't need it no, merely added it of the 2+ WS against flaming, but this may be luxury indeed (would have given de dragonbane gem if it wasn't for the dawnstone already there)
- Yeah I wasn't feeling really secure due to the 2 attacks profile of the WP about the hammer (though its a hamemr and fits the WP fluf wise :engel: ). Hmm good point about the icon!
- Took the FC on the HG's for the Fortitude (If I would loose the IC knight unit then I would loose 2(general)+1(BSB)+1(SB) = 4 points lost I do not want to have an auto loss on that scenario). HLR's was added to take potshots at enemy wizards as this list doesn't provide much in magic (defense), but these could be lost.
- Good point, will have to evaluate the number of magic damage spells that would actually be negated here and then if it's still worth it. Any other banners you would recommend?
+ 1 for Cannon of dooms solid suggestion of ditching the standard and having more greatswords.
For any character i think a charmed shield is a bargain. Half the price of your dragon helm and you never know if that first hit that you get the ward save from is going to be from something big that could cause multiple wounds. If not then hey, it's only 5 pts! or perhaps a small switch around and adding a potion of strength to your TGM which would make him much more usefull if he came across something with a high toughness like Ogres or a big Armour save. The sword of sigismund is a fantastic item, only slightly let down by the strength of the owner, and a potion of strength pretty much guarantees that you're a serious threat for at least a turn if something unpleasant turns up.
It's personal preference of course, but I'd 9 out of 10 times swap handgunners for crossbowmen. Unless you and your opponent deploy right on the starting blocks at the front of your deployment then you could lose a whole turns worth of shooting if you go first (my regular opponent likes to deploy 1/2 and inch back). The increased range of the crossbows means that this should never happen, also people don't seem to go quite so armour heavy in this edition preffering to add more bodies so the extra -1 save mod is often not needed. Also, as per high elves.. if your opponent has 24" shooting and you have 30" then you get the chance to soften him up first
Adding the shreiking blade is a good move.
Will think about the charmed shield, the Potion is actually something to be considered! Thanx
I found out that the handgunners especially against skaven means no AS at all, range is a known issue.. But figured this: If they keep out of range from my handgunners then more shooting for my cannons / mortar, also the marksmen option for the HLR is only with HG's hence my choice.
These 2 units will be swapped out for Xbows in test games to see what will be better of use though.
And thanks! Fear doesn't seem that good anymore in 8th like it used to be, but I think it can still be beneficial if you get that lower WS against you. and at only 10 points I thoughed it to be worth it!
I'll see what I can do this evening / tomorrow evening about adjusting the list with the comments given here
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I can't remove 2 knights from the IC unit, that way I would loose to fast out on the "look out, sir!" roll for my TGM, BSB and WP
Arcane warding was added to make sure my normal IC knights weren't blasted to bits with magic for the above reason..
You can remove them from the other knight unit. Remove the Handgunner Marksmen (They're not worth their points at ALL). If you absolutely do not want to remove any knights at all from your list, I would still urge you to remove the banner, at least, and use those points to buy 4 more greatswords. Here's why: Magic Res is crap now. It only works against Direct Damage Spells, and then a bunch of those ignore all saves. The only reason I can think of that would make me spend 40 points on that banner is if I were playing against someone I KNEW for SURE was using lore of metal. Otherwise, it is not worth it. If you absolutely must have Magic Res, spend 5 more points and get Magic Res (3) on a character. Plus, Greatswords are your ultimate anvil unit. They are more survivable than your flagellants, and can actually win a lot of combats after the first round.
With the points from removing the Handgunner Marksmen, you can buy 2 more handgunners (two units of 12) and a couple more Flaggies, or GS.
OR you could round out your 7 IC knights to 8 or 10, to help you even more. Another idea is to drop your IC Knights Preceptor. It's a lot to pay for +1 attack and MAYBE accepting a challenge. When I am squeezing points, unit champions are often one of the first things to go. Plus, with him gone you would have one more R&F guy for your LOS! rolls.
Also what about the Lord and Hero kits? These ok?
I don't have any problems with them, really. There's a few wonky things, but it's not bad.
I will tell you how I would kit them if I were going to field them all in one unit of knights, which seems to be your plan.
The TGM makes your knights ItP, so having Icon of Magnus is a waste of points. I would give your WP the VHS, and Potion of Strength or Sword of Might.
Somewhat the same thing with your BSB kit. Causing fear is just not that effective with BSB's allowing re-rolls. I would rather give him the Charmed Shield and Holy Relic or Talisman of Preservation (1+ AS, ignore first hit, 4+ ward)
For the Wizard Lord I would drop everything you have given him in favor of the Rod of Power. So much better, and allows you greater flexibility and even magical dominance in either phase.
I don't have an issue with your TGM, except to say that you better not have him Base to Base with any of your other characters, because the OTS is ALL models in base to base, not just enemy models. I would probably drop it and the Dragonhelm in favor of Potion of Strength or Speed. Personally, and again, it's preference, and not a BETTER idea than yours, I would give him a 4+ ward to go along with his 1+ AS, and fit him with a nice sword (like the Sword of Sigismund) OR give him the Laurels of Victory, Sword of +1 to hit, and Potion of Strength, to try and break that unit on the turn you charge. Sword of Sigismund and the Laurels are also an excellent combination, and the TGM is the character to use it on.
Incidentally, I always put banners on my shooting units, simply for the reason you listed, and also to give them a little bit better chance to fend off those skirmishing gun hunters like Gutter Runners or Hawk Riders or scouts.
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I can't remove 2 knights from the IC unit, that way I would loose to fast out on the "look out, sir!" roll for my TGM, BSB and WP
Arcane warding was added to make sure my normal IC knights weren't blasted to bits with magic for the above reason..
You can remove them from the other knight unit. Remove the Handgunner Marksmen (They're not worth their points at ALL). If you absolutely do not want to remove any knights at all from your list, I would still urge you to remove the banner, at least, and use those points to buy 4 more greatswords. Here's why: Magic Res is crap now. It only works against Direct Damage Spells, and then a bunch of those ignore all saves. The only reason I can think of that would make me spend 40 points on that banner is if I were playing against someone I KNEW for SURE was using lore of metal. Otherwise, it is not worth it. If you absolutely must have Magic Res, spend 5 more points and get Magic Res (3) on a character. Plus, Greatswords are your ultimate anvil unit. They are more survivable than your flagellants, and can actually win a lot of combats after the first round.
With the points from removing the Handgunner Marksmen, you can buy 2 more handgunners (two units of 12) and a couple more Flaggies, or GS.
OR you could round out your 7 IC knights to 8 or 10, to help you even more. Another idea is to drop your IC Knights Preceptor. It's a lot to pay for +1 attack and MAYBE accepting a challenge. When I am squeezing points, unit champions are often one of the first things to go. Plus, with him gone you would have one more R&F guy for your LOS! rolls.
Remove them from my other knight unit? Isn't there still a minimum unit amount (5 in this case)? So that would mean to remove the secondary knights all together from the list, not so sure if that would be smart to loose the mobility of that mob up unit.
Handgunner Marksmen (and thus HLR) will defo get some attention to a possible boot! Aswell as that Arcane Warding Banner. Maybe an idea of another banner?
Will definatly consider any points I clear to up the Great Swords unit.
Was considering a few more knights in the IC unit aswell, but they are expensive. As for the Preceptor he is there for another reason see below.
Also what about the Lord and Hero kits? These ok?
I don't have any problems with them, really. There's a few wonky things, but it's not bad.
I will tell you how I would kit them if I were going to field them all in one unit of knights, which seems to be your plan.
The TGM makes your knights ItP, so having Icon of Magnus is a waste of points. I would give your WP the VHS, and Potion of Strength or Sword of Might.
Somewhat the same thing with your BSB kit. Causing fear is just not that effective with BSB's allowing re-rolls. I would rather give him the Charmed Shield and Holy Relic or Talisman of Preservation (1+ AS, ignore first hit, 4+ ward)
For the Wizard Lord I would drop everything you have given him in favor of the Rod of Power. So much better, and allows you greater flexibility and even magical dominance in either phase.
I don't have an issue with your TGM, except to say that you better not have him Base to Base with any of your other characters, because the OTS is ALL models in base to base, not just enemy models. I would probably drop it and the Dragonhelm in favor of Potion of Strength or Speed. Personally, and again, it's preference, and not a BETTER idea than yours, I would give him a 4+ ward to go along with his 1+ AS, and fit him with a nice sword (like the Sword of Sigismund) OR give him the Laurels of Victory, Sword of +1 to hit, and Potion of Strength, to try and break that unit on the turn you charge. Sword of Sigismund and the Laurels are also an excellent combination, and the TGM is the character to use it on.
Incidentally, I always put banners on my shooting units, simply for the reason you listed, and also to give them a little bit better chance to fend off those skirmishing gun hunters like Gutter Runners or Hawk Riders or scouts.
Icon was out of the door already in my mind :)
Interesting options for the WP will certainly look into that! As for the BSB will also look into that though I do think fear might be usefull even if re-rolls can be made if we are in range of his BSB, which in the first fights won't be as I will try to flank his battle line and not roll through the center first (where normally his bsb will be)
RoP is indeed something to consider especially with only 1 wiz and 1 wp I might have dice spare (with high winds of magic) to use and store
Coming back to the Preceptor.. the OTS was here the decisions to take him.
Front line setup: SB - TGM - Preceptor - WP - BSB (if with 12 IC knights then - MUS) second line MUS and 4 R&F (or with 12 IC 6 R&F)
That way my other chars are out of harms way for the OTS.
Both Dragonbane Gem and DragonHelm will be reconsidered and the laurels will be added I think aswell to make sure to win combats.
There is a lot to ponder on this list still :)
But really happy on all the comments given here! (maybe I'll test it out on the Eurobash)
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So here is my adjusted list
Banner of Arcane Warding is 30 points btw not 40 (just if you were wondering about the changes)
reference:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=38009.0 (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=38009.0)
Lords:
230pt Templar Grand Master (Blazing Sun) (has FPA, Shield and Lance and barded warhorse), Sword of Sigismund (45), Dawnstone (25), The Other Tricksters Shard (15)
1+ AS re-rollable
+1S and Always First Strike
re-roll succesfull ward saves by models in base contact
(with IC Knights)
I think he is now as optimally protected as can be and can dis out alot of pain with AFS on WS 6 with S5 on 4 attacks
260pt Wizard Lord (Life), level 4, The Crimson Amulet(20), Rod of Power(30)
(with handgunners)
Total: 490pt (of max 600)
Heroes:
139pt CotE (BSB) Barded Warhorse, Dawn Armour(35), Sword of Battle (15 AB value)
2+ AS re-rollable, +1 attack
(with IC Knights)
150pt Warrior Priest Barded Warhorse, Heavy Armor, Shield, Sword of Might(15 AB value), Van Horstmann's Speculum (30), Ironcurse Icon (5), Luckstone (5) (Ironcurse and VHS are both Enchanted items cannot carry both)
2+ AS, re-roll single failed armor save
(with IC Knights)
90pt Engineer, Pigeon bombs
Total: 379pt (of max 600)
Core:
220pt - 40 Halberdiers, FC (bus formation just to hold up the line)
135pt - 15 Handgunners, SB, MUS (wizard here)
250pt - 25 Flaggelants (7x3+some)
Total: 605 (max need 600)
Special:
247pt - 7 IC Knights (Blazing Sun), FC, War Banner (25 AB value)
280pt - 25 Great Swords, FC
114pt - 5 Pistoliers, mus, outrider with repeater pistol)
100pt - Great Cannon
75pt - Mortar
Total: 816 (of max 1200)
Rare:
110pt - Helblaster Volley Gun
Army total: 490(lords), 379(heroes), 605(core), 816(special), 110(rare) = 2400
Thoughts:
- TGM fit: Sword of Sigismund (Magic Weapon), Dawnstone (Talisman), OTS (Enchanted Item). These are now there, giving a Ward Save means removing the Dawnstone as talisman missing the 1+ AS reroll (other option is killing his FPA for an expensive armor) I think I can try to rely on the Ward Prayer. Laurels with 55 is really expensive but will try them out if I feel combat with this setup won't turn in my favor.
Might swap out the OTS for a potion of Strength though, just going to field test the OTS first.
- Added RoP to Wizard Lord
- BSB fit: with the Dawnstone on the TGM I don't see another option then to give him the Dawn Armor for the reroll AS (I think the AS re-roll will save more then the Ward Save) so that fills up the slot on Magic Armor. Leaves 15 points which is too little to add a decent Ward Save item (6+ is not worth it in my opinion) But will try the FPA + Charmed Shield + Holy Relic or Talisman of Preservation combo if my findings are leaning more towards this use.
- WP fit: there is room for the 6+ WS for the whole unit against warmachines here, maybe usefull? Edit: had 5 left over points so I just tugged it in
- Added an Engineer as I found that especially the Hellblaster and with it also the cannon and mortar benefits greatly from him. Also making the warmachine park a prime target and thus my Knight unit will be less a target.
- To save some more points I combined both handgunner units and shaved some models here aswell to add more Great Swords
- To counter not using the laurels I added the War Banner for another 1 combat result. Lost the Banner of Arcane Warding here.
IC Knights unit summary:
4 attacks ASF S5 (TGM)
4 attacks I5 S4 (BSB)
2 attacks I4 S5 (WP)
8 attacks I3 S6 (7 Knights including Preceptor) hatred on charge
5 attacks I3 S3 (5 Warhorses)
I'm actually a bit worried about the I3 of the Knights..
So anymore thoughts?
Edit: wrong calculation on the Knights so moved a bit around to make it fit again, biggest change 5 nilla knights swapped for Pistoliers
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Looks like you are closing in on a solid list!
The only thought I have based upon the other HE thread is that alot of your striking punch is in one basket- the IC Knights. If I was fighting your list, they would be high on my targeting priority.
I run the 10 IC and 5 'nilla knights as well, but I think that the addition of impact hits (from either a WAlter or STank) would really add power at your point of attack. I get those points by running with cheap Halberds just to get some ranks and I avoid the more expensive troops. We can never match the HE troops he uses in his list so we have to get more creative in our search for mass casualties.
Let us know how the list works out for you! I would be interested in your lessons learned.
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We can never match the HE troops he uses in his list so we have to get more creative in our search for mass casualties.
With any luck we should be able to use our artillery to thin the ranks enough that we can achieve the same thing when we do make combat though.
Let us know how the list works out for you! I would be interested in your lessons learned.
Also very interested to hear how it all goes for you.
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Well the 2400 (+100 bare lvl 2 mage) didn't do so well against WoC (see my battle report thread).. I have some ideas that I want to adjust, but also some other lists of mine need redoing..
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I still reckon the list is close. Just a bit of tweaking and force balancing and it'll be fine. I think you have a few too many eggs in the IC basket. I'd probably move the BSB to support the Infantry and add the extra IC Knight to keep the unit size at 10.
I'd probably do some item tweaking here and there. With the WP in with the IC you could get away with taking Ogre Blade/Sword of Power and using Hammer of Sigmar to get re-roll to hit and wound for a start.
I'm also worried that the amulet on the wizard and the pidgeon bombs may be a waste. The wizard would be better off with a dispel scroll in case of emergency and with those three war machines (same as what I run at 2000pts) the engineer probably won't get much chance to unleash the birds. Remember that the wizard can heal himself with the Lore Attribute.
Your elite unit formations could probably be tweaked a bit as well to find the best balance of depth and attacking power. Your flagellants at least look a bit shallow. I'd probably look at 6x4 and change instead of the 7x3 and change.
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Well the 2400 (+100 bare lvl 2 mage) didn't do so well against WoC (see my battle report thread).. I have some ideas that I want to adjust, but also some other lists of mine need redoing..
Oops. I missed your update. I'll look at it and get back to you.
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So with my insights from the Eurobash a new 2000 List
Lords:
223pt Arch Lector
Dawn Armour, Shield, Hammer of Anti-Heroes, VHS
235pt Wizard Lord
Level 4, Lore of Fire, Dispell Scroll
458 / 500
Heroes:
125pt CotE
Battle Standard Bearer, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Dawnstone
139pt Warrior Priest
Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, Hammer of Fate
95pt Battle Wizard
Level 1, Lore of Beasts, Rod of Power
65pt Engineer
424 / 500
Core
220pt 40 Halberdiers
Full Command
205pt 30 Swordsmen
Full Command
80pt 10 Crossbowmen
505 / 500
Detachments
30pt 6 Free Company (with Halberdiers)
30pt 6 Free Company (with Swordsmen)
48pt 6 Handgunners (with Halberdiers)
108 / XXX
Special
114pt 5 Pistoliers
Musician, Outrider with Repeater Pistol
100pt Great Cannon
100pt Great Cannon
75pt Mortar
389 / 1000
Rare
115pt Helstorm Rocket Battery
115 / 500
Total: 1999
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Revised 2500 List
(Revised 2400 List, will drop the Luckstone on the WP and the Battle Wizard to do this)
Lords:
155pt Arch Lector
General, AoMI (with halbs)
230pt TGM
FPA, Shield, Lance, Sword of Sigismund, Dawnstone, tOTS (with (IC?) Knights)
210pt Wiz Lord
(Life), lvl 4 (with Xbow)
595pt total (max 600)
Heroes:
125pt CotE
BSB, Dawn armour, Sword of Battle (with halbs)
150pt WP
BWarhorse, HA, Shield, Sword of Might, VHS, Luckstone (With (IC?) Knights)
95pt Battle Wizard
(Beasts) lvl 1, RoP (with Xbow)
65pt Engineer
435pt total (max 600)
Core:
170pt 30 Halbs, FC
205pt 30 Swords, FC
224pt 8 Knights GW, FC
82pt 9 Xbow, SB
82pt 9 Xbow, SB
763pt total (min 600)
Detachments:
30pt 6 Free Company (with Halberdiers)
30pt 6 Free Company (with Swordsmen)
60pt total (xxx)
Special:
248pt 8 IC Knights GW, FC
114pt 5 Pistoliers, Mus, Outrider w. Repeater Pistol
100pt Great Cannon
100pt Great Cannon
75pt Mortar
637pt total (max 1200)
2490pt Army total
Thoughts:
- I got 10 points left to use and 5 spare points in Lords.. I feel the AL needs something, but that would mean loosing something on the TGM (maybe the OTS).
- removed the specialist infantry (flags and GS) to add in another Knight unit to offer a deployment bonus. I can now either drop the TGM + WP in the normal Knights or in the IC knights depending on where they might be more usefull.
- Added an AL in to provide the LD Bubble with my main line instead of seeing it gone on the flank or loosing it if the knight unit bites it.. Also gives me more advantage in the Dispel magic fase.
- BSB on foot now also to be with the main line.
- Added in 2 CC detachments. they will opperate on the inside of my line: Halbs-detach-detach-Swords. While 1 or both Knight units will operate on the outer flank(s) of those units to flank from the other side.
- Pistoliers will still harrass as much as possible deep within enemy lines.
So due to me being at work I can't really work out shifting magic items now, so will do that at home.. But I am interested in how you guys might perseve this new list.
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For extra tactical flexibility I'd probably swap the AL for 2 Warrior Priests (1 mounted) so you can always put a WP in with both Knight units and it just becomes a case of where the TGM goes - as you'll need more points to do this I'd drop the Engineer or the Beast Wizard. The IC knights with a WP on their own will be a nice hammer and the third WP can be on foot with the Halbs. You'll also still get the same number of Prayers (but with a larger potential area of affect) and the same number of extra dispel dice.
The downside with the above is that your Ld 9 TGM general will be running around with one of the knight units but most of the big combats where you'll need it will involve him or probably have him nearby so it shouldn't make too much of a difference. With the characters in your infantry units you should still be testing on re-rollable Ld 8 for any panic tests if they have to take them while the TGM is off with his cavalry buddies. the items could probably do with some tweaking but they're not exactly bad at the moment.
Other than that I'm really liking the list. It's the way I've been wanting to play Empire since 5th edition when I started playing and thanks to 8th it's actually effective now. Hopefully the list works better for you next time :biggriin:
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For extra tactical flexibility I'd probably swap the AL for 2 Warrior Priests (1 mounted) so you can always put a WP in with both Knight units and it just becomes a case of where the TGM goes - as you'll need more points to do this I'd drop the Engineer or the Beast Wizard. The IC knights with a WP on their own will be a nice hammer and the third WP can be on foot with the Halbs. You'll also still get the same number of Prayers (but with a larger potential area of affect) and the same number of extra dispel dice.
The downside with the above is that your Ld 9 TGM general will be running around with one of the knight units but most of the big combats where you'll need it will involve him or probably have him nearby so it shouldn't make too much of a difference. With the characters in your infantry units you should still be testing on re-rollable Ld 8 for any panic tests if they have to take them while the TGM is off with his cavalry buddies. the items could probably do with some tweaking but they're not exactly bad at the moment.
Other than that I'm really liking the list. It's the way I've been wanting to play Empire since 5th edition when I started playing and thanks to 8th it's actually effective now. Hopefully the list works better for you next time :biggriin:
swapping the AL for 2 WP's isn't actually a bad idea for adding a WP to both Knight units. Thing is I'm not worried that much about the LD bubble not reaching as I want this setup to be compact (flanking units that my core engages), trouble I have is that the TGM (and the unit he is with) will attract alot of attention.. Loosing him is loosing the bubble completly. And you'll be surprised how often I even fail the Ld9 test :unsure:
Dropping the Engineer or Beast Wizard is a tough choice, I'll see if I can manage to swap some around to make your suggestion work, if not I'll field run this list (with adjusted magic items) first.
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Good luck. Hopefully it works better than the last outing. In general it's a solid list. We're really just optimising at this point. Hopefully having 2 knight units, plus the big infantry units (with annoying distraction detachments), and the pistoliers, and the artillery will give too many targets. Even without the TGM, 8-9 IC knights with a WP will still pack a decent punch should the opponent forget about them.
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Steg, I would do the following:
* Keep the marksmans' handgun - drop the brace of pistols
* Swap the Helstorm for a Mortar and drop Halberds to 30 from 38 - use these points for either a small flagellant unit or greatsword flanker unit
* Swap AoMI to the warrior priest
* Replace it with full plate' and shield on the captain - with Dawnstone that's a re-rollable 3+ - still good odds.
* Forget the Crimson amulet - he should have either a Holy Relic or Shroud of Magnus - 6+ wards are pointless on characters.
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Steg, I would do the following:
* Keep the marksmans' handgun - drop the brace of pistols
* Swap the Helstorm for a Mortar and drop Halberds to 30 from 38 - use these points for either a small flagellant unit or greatsword flanker unit
* Swap AoMI to the warrior priest
* Replace it with full plate' and shield on the captain - with Dawnstone that's a re-rollable 3+ - still good odds.
* Forget the Crimson amulet - he should have either a Holy Relic or Shroud of Magnus - 6+ wards are pointless on characters.
Thanks for the comments, but ehmm what list are you referring to? I don't think it is one of the latest 2 lists :)
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I took MrAbbysal's tip and worked it out a bit more, and I think I am now really satisfied with the list, although it might seem a bit character heavy.
Revised 2500 List
(Revised 2400 List, dropping the Battle Wizard and the Luckstone)
Lords:
Johan van den Kornput
118pt General of the Empire
General, Dawn Armour, Shield (with halbs or swords)
215pt Templar Grand Master of the White Wolf
Full Plate Armour, Shield, Lance, Sword of Sigismund, Dawnstone (with (IC?) Knights)
Jan van Horne
210pt Wiz Lord
(Life), lvl 4 (with Xbow)
543pt total (max 600)
Heroes:
Willem Corneliszoon van Duyvenbode
105pt CotE
BSB, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Luckstone (with halbs or swords)
Godfried van Mervel
145pt Warrior Priest
Barded Warhorse, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sword of Might, VHS (With (IC?) Knights)
Jacob Blommaert
110pt Warrior Priest
Barded Warhorse, Heavy Armour, Shield (with the other Knights then the TGM/ VHS WP)
Joost de Moor
95pt Battle Wizard
(Beasts) lvl 1, RoP
Adriaen van Bergen
65pt Engineer
520pt total (max 600)
Core:
170pt 30 Halbs, FC, led by: Lancelot van Brederode
205pt 30 Swords, FC, led by: Otto van Gendt
224pt 8 Knights GW, FC
140pt 15 Xbow, SB, Banner of Eternal Flame
739pt total (min 600)
Detachments:
30pt 6 Free Company (with Halberdiers)
30pt 6 Free Company (with Swordsmen)
60pt total (xxx)
Special:
248pt 8 IC Knights GW, FC, led by: Wolfert van Borselen
114pt 5 Pistoliers, Mus, Outrider w. Repeater Pistol, led by: Barthout Entens van Mentheda
100pt Great Cannon
100pt Great Cannon
75pt Mortar
637pt total (max 1200)
2499pt Army total
Thoughts:
- Took a GotE to pick up the flaming banner and to keep the LD bubble with my core.
- Added the 2nd WP in to give both Knight units hatred.
- The wizards have a pure support role here.
- Kept most characters pretty clean of Magic Items to not hamper my normal units too much. Just added a few basics.
- CC detachments still there for the flank/charge bonus.
- Knights to occupy both or one flank depending on where I might get an oppening.
- Pistoliers to harass and annoy and to kill some warmachines or small units.
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You're correct, it isn't!! Ooops!! :icon_redface:
I would change the following in your new list:
* Lv. 4 needs a ward save - without one he's just free points for enemy warmachine hunters/fastfcavalry
* Consider dropping the Lv. 1 and transferring the RoP to the Lv. 4
* Where does the Engineer go - has he proven worth his points in this and other lists?
* Consider dropping one cannon and increasing your detachments to 10+ or any size where they can actually disrupt formations.......
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You're correct, it isn't!! Ooops!! :icon_redface:
I would change the following in your new list:
* Lv. 4 needs a ward save - without one he's just free points for enemy warmachine hunters/fastfcavalry
* Consider dropping the Lv. 1 and transferring the RoP to the Lv. 4
* Where does the Engineer go - has he proven worth his points in this and other lists?
* Consider dropping one cannon and increasing your detachments to 10+ or any size where they can actually disrupt formations.......
I have considered ward saves, but I wanted in this list the points for characters as low as possible (as there are alot already) and in my experience sofar I haven't seen any reall attempts on killing my wizards early game. Both wizards in this list only have a support role and I'm not expecting a big impact from them on the game.
Engineer goes withing 3" of all the warmachines to use his re-roll where needed. And I'm of the opinion you can't really go without anymore it makes your warmachines so much more effective.
Dropping a cannon with already only 3 warmachines? Besides my detachments are only there to provide some cover to other units and to help with an first round combat result (flank + charge). Really breaking the units are what both knight units will suppose to be doing. :)
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@StealthKnightSteg: O.K. I see your point regarding characters. Might I suggest instead swapping the cannon anyway - but for a mortar? I just think a Mortar is better as they kill more, I.M.O. Sure you can kill an entire rank with cannons, but what's that, 3-5 models out of 25+? Not even enough for panic......
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@StealthKnightSteg: O.K. I see your point regarding characters. Might I suggest instead swapping the cannon anyway - but for a mortar? I just think a Mortar is better as they kill more, I.M.O. Sure you can kill an entire rank with cannons, but what's that, 3-5 models out of 25+? Not even enough for panic......
I was thinking that myself aswell, but my reasoning for 2 cannons vs 2 mortars is that I can roll up the big blocks with my own blocks with the knight support. The things I actually do not want to engage are HPA, Giants etc. That is why I choose the cannons to take those out.
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When's your next game?
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When's your next game?
Saturday evening, but it's the old 2k game that needs to be finished... Dunno when and if I can field test this 2.5 (or 2.4) list before the local tourn..
I do not have a lot of time on my hands to game on a regular basis unfortunatly (I'm lucky to manage 1 game per month)
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I am curious why you put a luckstone on a guy who already is wearing the dawn armor.
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I am curious why you put a luckstone on a guy who already is wearing the dawn armor.
Well actually, I was fidling with the list and had 5 points to toss somewhere, and not really paying attention where to put it.. besides the fact I needed something to differ 100 points so I could toss it out.
With more thought it would be awesome to make him even more survivable... failed AS roll, re-roll failed, Luckstone!! Afterall he is my General..
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That's still better than what I manage at the moment.
No point having the luckstone on him with Dawn Armour as can't re-roll a re-roll.
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That's still better than what I manage at the moment.
No point having the luckstone on him with Dawn Armour as can't re-roll a re-roll.
Is it a re-roll on the luckstone? Hmm in my mind (at work) it was an ignore thing. If it is a re-roll thing then it will go to my BSB.
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That's still better than what I manage at the moment.
No point having the luckstone on him with Dawn Armour as can't re-roll a re-roll.
Is it a re-roll on the luckstone? Hmm in my mind (at work) it was an ignore thing. If it is a re-roll thing then it will go to my BSB.
Re-roll a single failed armor save.
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That's still better than what I manage at the moment.
No point having the luckstone on him with Dawn Armour as can't re-roll a re-roll.
Is it a re-roll on the luckstone? Hmm in my mind (at work) it was an ignore thing. If it is a re-roll thing then it will go to my BSB.
Re-roll a single failed armor save.
fixed it! :happy:
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:::cheers:::
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So with my insights from the Eurobash a new 2000 List
Lords:
223pt Arch Lector
Dawn Armour, Shield, Hammer of Anti-Heroes, VHS
235pt Wizard Lord
Level 4, Lore of Fire, Dispell Scroll
458 / 500
Heroes:
125pt CotE
Battle Standard Bearer, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Dawnstone
139pt Warrior Priest
Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, Hammer of Fate
95pt Battle Wizard
Level 1, Lore of Beasts, Rod of Power
65pt Engineer
424 / 500
Core
220pt 40 Halberdiers
Full Command
205pt 30 Swordsmen
Full Command
80pt 10 Crossbowmen
505 / 500
Detachments
30pt 6 Free Company (with Halberdiers)
30pt 6 Free Company (with Swordsmen)
48pt 6 Handgunners (with Halberdiers)
108 / XXX
Special
114pt 5 Pistoliers
Musician, Outrider with Repeater Pistol
100pt Great Cannon
100pt Great Cannon
75pt Mortar
389 / 1000
Rare
115pt Helstorm Rocket Battery
115 / 500
Total: 1999
Today I am going to do my first 2k pts battle, against O&G. As I have no idea what works or not, I am going to use your list today, Steg. I will let you know how it goes :) I was thinking of switching the lore of fire to light, but on second thought I would rather 'stick to the list' and see how it goes.
Averland 8th Militia on the move to punish some Greenskins that dare cross our border!
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Well good luck on your battle, I am very interested in how it went, also I am very proud that you took my list to try it out :)
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Okay, I love Rocket Batteries! I got two battles off, and will be making the battle-report in the coming days. A short question from my Chaos opponent: is there anything he can do to counter the VHS? In his perception that one item virtually makes all his characters useless.
And the battle-report vs Orcs & Goblins is up here (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=38630.0).
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A short question from my Chaos opponent: is there anything he can do to counter the VHS? In his perception that one item virtually makes all his characters useless.
Yes, he can challenge with wizards and unit champions (if he has a War Shrine), while using his big combat guys to kill regular troops. Or avoid the unit that has it. Or just suck it up and realize that he's just feeling the pain that is Empire character stats.
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A short question from my Chaos opponent: is there anything he can do to counter the VHS? In his perception that one item virtually makes all his characters useless.
Yes, he can challenge with wizards and unit champions (if he has a War Shrine), while using his big combat guys to kill regular troops. Or avoid the unit that has it. Or just suck it up and realize that he's just feeling the pain that is Empire character stats.
This!! And the Hammer (Sword) of Anti-Heroes just makes it even worse :icon_twisted: Also the Make Way rule makes this even better as you can try to position your AL as good as possible if your not in a challenge, connecting to a Lord and his BSB if they are close or even also with a wizard of his.
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Its a mean list! I love it :D
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Updated the first post for easy reference to my current lists that I use. (no more need for endless browsing till you find the latest edition of one of my lists :) )
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W.T.F?! In your updated lists your Wiz Lord has a Xbow?! I assume you mean crossbow?! If so, this is illegal. Furthermore, you should give him a ward save - I have had had my wizards survive for a couple more turns in all my recent games thanks to giving them such items as the Tal. of Pres./Holy Relic, Sh. of Mag., Tal. of End. and Crimson amulet. I use crimson instead of protection as Crimson allows the wearer to auto-pass any non-Ld. based characteristic test. More than worth it for an extra 5 pts, I.M.O.
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W.T.F?! In your updated lists your Wiz Lord has a Xbow?! I assume you mean crossbow?! If so, this is illegal. Furthermore, you should give him a ward save - I have had had my wizards survive for a couple more turns in all my recent games thanks to giving them such items as the Tal. of Pres./Holy Relic, Sh. of Mag., Tal. of End. and Crimson amulet. I use crimson instead of protection as Crimson allows the wearer to auto-pass any non-Ld. based characteristic test. More than worth it for an extra 5 pts, I.M.O.
haha, no I intend him to JOIN the XBow's or rather Crossbowmen. (I'll edit this for clarity :P)
As for the ward saves, I have not needed it yet on my wizards as they have not been much of a target. But it sure crossed my mind to give them this. Though my last game my wizards got some extra attention so I might swap some stuff around to accomodate them.
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I was looking at my 2k list and thought... War Altar.. how to fit it in and not throw the whole list upside down
I came with this:
2k Waraltar (1998pts)
Selections:
* Lords (490pts)
* Arch Lector of Sigmar (323pts)
Dawn Armour, Shield, Sword of Anti-heroes, Van Horstmann's Speculum, War Altar of Sigmar
* General of the Empire (167pts)
Enchanted Shield, Full Plate armour, Holy Relic, Sword of Might
* Heroes (479pts)
* Battle Wizard (150pts)
Lore of Fire, Rod of Power, Sword of Justice, Wizard level 2
* Captain of the Empire (125pts)
Armour of Meteoric Icon, Battle standard bearer, Dawnstone
* Master Engineer (65pts)
* Warrior Priest (139pts)
Charmed Shield, Heavy armour, Sword of Fate
* Core (525pts)
* Crossbowmen (100pts)
Banner of Eternal Flame, 10x Crossbowmen, Standard bearer
* Halberdiers (220pts)
40x Halberdiers, Musician, Sergeant, Standard bearer
* Swordsmen (205pts)
Duellist, Musician, Standard bearer, 30x Swordsmen
* Special (389pts)
* Great Cannon (100pts)
* Great Cannon (100pts)
* Mortar (75pts)
* Pistoliers (114pts)
Musician, 5x Pistoliers
* Outrider
Repeater pistol
* Rare (115pts)
* Helstorm Rocket Battery (115pts)
Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)
So what do you think? I can't fit a Wizard Lord and keeping the same fit on the AL. Maybe swap the General for more bodies?
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Hmmm, yeah, I think swap the general for a couple of 15+ Detachments for the main blocks, also possibly some skirmishing archers screening them as they advance....?
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So! First attempt on a list for the new Army Book. Does feel like there is not enough troops... Maybe I'll swap out the crossbows for more Halberdiers + a few more in their detachments. (though I wanted to use the crossbows as chaff killers and wizard bunker)
+++ Empire Armylist 8th ed ab 8th ed brb 2500pts (2500pts) +++
+ Lords + (544pts)
* Arch Lector (319pts)
Heavy Armour
* Magic Items
AB - The White Cloak of Ulric, BRB - Enchanted Shield
* War Altar of Sigmar
AB - The Golden Griffon, AB - The Horn of Sigismund
* Battle Wizard Lord (225pts)
Lore of Beasts, Wizard Level 4
* Magic Items
BRB - Dispel Scroll
+ Heroes + (397pts)
* Captain of the Empire (138pts)
Battle Standard Bearer, Full Plate Armour, Shield
* Magic Items
BRB - Dawnstone, BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - Shrieking Blade
* Captain of the Empire (125pts)
Full Plate Armour, Imperial Pegasus, Lance, Shield
* Magic Items
BRB - Dragonbane Gem
* Master Engineer (65pts)
* Warrior Priest (69pts)
Heavy Armour, Shield
+ Core + (635pts)
* Crossbowmen (90pts)
(Regimental Unit)
10x Crossbowmen
* Halberdiers (310pts)
(Regimental Unit)
Champion, 25x Halberdiers, Musician, Standard Bearer
* Free Company Militia
10x Free Company Militia (Detachment)
* Swordsmen
10x Swordsmen (Detachment)
* Knightly Orders (110pts)
Great Weapon, 5x Knightly Orders
* Knightly Orders Inner Circle (125pts)
5x Knightly Orders Inner Circle, Lance and Shield
+ Special + (674pts)
* Demigryph Knights (174pts)
Halberd, 3x Inner Circle Knight
* Great Cannon (120pts)
* Greatswords (380pts)
(Regimental Unit)
Champion, 20x Greatswords, Musician, Standard Bearer
* Free Company Militia
10x Free Company Militia (Detachment)
* Swordsmen
10x Swordsmen (Detachment)
+ Rare + (250pts)
* Celestial Hurricanum (130pts)
* Helstorm Rocket Battery (120pts)
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As you stated, the list feels light. More particularly, my first concern is what you expect to do against monsters. It might be the local meta, but I generally plan on a handful of them per game, and I'd be concerned with only one cannon. It appears as though you might have the anti-infantry covered, so many drop the helstorm for another cannon? Maybe even drop the engy as well and go straight up 2xCannons and add another 10 Halberds.
I might even suggest swapping magic wagons, but the hurricanum just fits too well with what you have going on.
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I'm not overly concerned with monsters, I think I can bog it down and kill it with enough attacks due to flanking.
But the feel light on men at arms did make me change a bit and it made me loose the peggie cap'n. So I might need to use one of my knight units now to go warmachine hunting instead of having it as another flanking unit.
And swapped the Halberds for Lances on the demigryphs, I think the +2S and 1+AS will be better to have then +1S all the time in combat.
+++ Empire 8th ed AB 8th ed BRB 2500 (2500pts) +++
+++ 2500pt Empire 8th Ed AB and 8th Ed BRB Roster (Standard) +++
Selections:
+ Lords + (544pts)
* Arch Lector (319pts)
Heavy Armour
* Magic Items
AB - The White Cloak of Ulric, BRB - Enchanted Shield
* War Altar of Sigmar
AB - The Golden Griffon, AB - The Horn of Sigismund
* Battle Wizard Lord (225pts)
Lore of Beasts, Wizard Level 4
* Magic Items
BRB - Dispel Scroll
+ Heroes + (297pts)
* Captain of the Empire (138pts)
Battle Standard Bearer, Full Plate Armour, Shield
* Magic Items
BRB - Dawnstone, BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - Shrieking Blade
* Master Engineer (65pts)
* Warrior Priest (94pts)
Heavy Armour, Shield
* Magic Items
BRB - Ironcurse Icon, BRB - Sword of Might
+ Core + (670pts)
* Halberdiers (435pts)
(Regimental Unit)
Champion, 40x Halberdiers, Musician, Standard Bearer
* Free Company Militia
10x Free Company Militia (Detachment)
* Swordsmen
15x Swordsmen (Detachment)
* Knightly Orders (110pts)
5x Knightly Orders, Lance and Shield
* Knightly Orders Inner Circle (125pts)
5x Knightly Orders Inner Circle, Lance and Shield
+ Special + (739pts)
* Demigryph Knights (174pts)
3x Inner Circle Knight, Lance
* Great Cannon (120pts)
* Greatswords (445pts)
(Regimental Unit)
Champion, 25x Greatswords, Musician
* Free Company Militia
10x Free Company Militia (Detachment)
* Standard Bearer
BRB - Banner of Eternal Flame
* Swordsmen
10x Swordsmen (Detachment)
+ Rare + (250pts)
* Celestial Hurricanum (130pts)
* Helstorm Rocket Battery (120pts)
Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)
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What about this as a 3k list?
+++ Empire 3000 (3000pts) +++
+++ 3000pt Empire 8th Ed AB and 8th Ed BRB Roster (Standard) +++
Selections:
+ Lords + (741pts)
* Arch Lector (152pts)
Additional Hand Weapon, Light Armour
* Magic Items
AB - Armour of Meteoric Icon
* Battle Wizard Lord (200pts)
Lore of Beasts, Wizard Level 4
* General of the Empire (389pts)
Full Plate Armour, Lance, Shield
* Imperial Griffon
Bloodroar
* Magic Items
AB - Helm of the Skavenslayer, AB - The White Cloak of Ulric, BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard
+ Heroes + (347pts)
* Captain of the Empire (143pts)
Battle Standard Bearer, Full Plate Armour, Shield
* Magic Items
BRB - Dawnstone, BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - Sword of Striking
* Master Engineer (65pts)
* Warrior Priest (84pts)
Heavy Armour, Shield
* Magic Items
BRB - Sword of Striking
* Witch Hunter (55pts)
Brace of Pistols
+ Core + (785pts)
* Halberdiers (435pts)
(Regimental Unit)
Champion, 40x Halberdiers, Musician, Standard Bearer
* Free Company Militia
10x Free Company Militia (Detachment)
* Swordsmen
15x Swordsmen (Detachment)
* Knightly Orders (120pts)
Great Weapon, 5x Knightly Orders, Musician
* Knightly Orders Inner Circle (230pts)
Champion, 8x Knightly Orders Inner Circle, Lance and Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer
+ Special + (1007pts)
* Demigryph Knights (242pts)
4x Inner Circle Knight, Lance, Musician
* Great Cannon (120pts)
* Great Cannon (120pts)
* Greatswords (525pts)
(Regimental Unit)
Champion, 30x Greatswords, Musician, Standard Bearer
* Free Company Militia
10x Free Company Militia (Detachment)
* Swordsmen
15x Swordsmen (Detachment)
+ Rare + (120pts)
* Helblaster Volley Gun (120pts)
Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)
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I was a bit confused about the lists perhaps you should start a new one for each point value and/or create a thread in the brush and palette or electors count army building thread with the lists, pics and reports on how they fared.
I would suggest the charmed shield for the Captasus a 2+ save against cannonballs or stone throwers is good against most armies.
Also drop the champions and musicians the free reform looks nice on paper but I seldon use it if you drop those on all your regimentals (keep the banner) you gain enough points to bolster your units a bit.
For the cheapo priests either keep em totally naked or if you want to spend magic items it is better to invest in protection than expensive mageblades for a Ws4 A2 guy.
The champion on the Demigryphons makes sense as he has 3 wounds and is able to kill many characters.
You have enough swordsmen in the army to make them your regimental unit and use your halberds as detachments instead. You donīt need to go horde if you field detachments of 12 halberdiers you gain 12 S4 attacks and less people can attack them in the flank the most attacks go to the front the regimental unit they have ws4 5+ save and 6+ ward against most stuff so can soak up that damage better.
Swords main or detachment for greatswords (stubborn). Halberds best as detachments or hordes.
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I hope to get the 2500 one going on sunday as a preperation battle for the Eurobash... otherwise I have no battles with these lists (last 2 posts with the lists are 2500 and 3000.
In both lists there is no captasus though :) (newest 2500 list and the 3000 list, the old 2500 did had one but I erased it from the list)
Champions are for challenge save uarding my bsb and WP, and I actually do use my free reform ability quite often..
You are right about the weapons on the WP's though... I'll ponder on this a bit..
My idea with the swordsmen as detachments was ather to have a speedbump that doesn't get annihalated in 1 round of combat so I can make my support attacks the next turn I find them to expensive to use as main blocks especially for the buffs that I try to generate (with the 2500 list)
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the 2,5k list looks good, except I'd be tempted to put all 10 knights into one inner circle unit.
I also don't like free company, but it doesn't really matter.
Why beasts lore, just for wyssans?
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But you use enough swords overall in the army anyway...if you spend the points on detachments you can spend them on regimentals too. Just exchange the swords detachments with halberdiers in the regimental.
30 swords regimental or 35 and the halberdiers spread out as detachments.
on the other hand if you want to go horde halberdiers and Wyssans those the big halberdier main might be better.
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I have been thinking about the 1 knight unit, but I think the extra drop can be helpfull for more options on when and where to be able to flank something or that I can commit 1 unit to WM hunting (as I am missing my pistoliers now) damn core allowance!!
I haven't used Beast lore as of yet and with especially the 2500 list with the synergy on buffs going I felt I could add even more buffs around and Beasts seems good for that.
In the 2500 List I probably swap out the helstorm for a helblaster, but I want to fiddle with the 3 template thingy atleast 1 time :)
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I think the rocket battery could perform well with an engineer. Re rolling the arty dice so no misfire and -4 on the indirect fire hits help.
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So fiddling a bit with my old list I used during the Eurobash (and which I altered there already on the Magic Lore) I came up with the following.
Small Knights units of 5 died to fast to act on their own so boosted the IC Knights a bit.
Also I found that with my Cavalry list I used against Shavixmirs Dwarfs that atleast one unit of ranged gives a bit more options.
Another thing.. An engineer without a weapon option (ranged) is like totally useless as you only run him around doing nothing but try to save his hide when your artillery has died. With 10 points you atleast get the option to do something, not sure if the repeater pistol would be better then a repeater handgun, though it counts as an extra attack when in combat and has quickfire to shoot while moving (without the movement penalty and can S&S on all ranges)
The basics are the same though.
So thoughts?
+++ Empire 2500 post Eurobash (2500pts) +++
+++ 2500pt Empire 8th Ed AB and 8th Ed BRB Roster (Standard) +++
Selections:
+ Lords + (574pts)
* Arch Lector (349pts)
Heavy Armour
* Magic Items
AB - The White Cloak of Ulric, BRB - Enchanted Shield, BRB - Sword of Anti-Heroes
* War Altar of Sigmar
AB - The Golden Griffon, AB - The Horn of Sigismund
* Battle Wizard Lord (225pts)
Lore of Shadow, Wizard Level 4
* Magic Items
BRB - Dispel Scroll
+ Heroes + (297pts)
* Captain of the Empire (143pts)
Battle Standard Bearer, Full Plate Armour, Shield
* Magic Items
BRB - Dawnstone, BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - Sword of Striking
* Master Engineer (75pts)
Repeater Pistol
* Warrior Priest (79pts)
Heavy Armour, Shield
* Magic Items
BRB - Shrieking Blade
+ Core + (650pts)
* Halberdiers (420pts)
(Regimental Unit)
Champion, 40x Halberdiers, Musician, Standard Bearer
* Crossbowmen
10x Crossbowmen (Detachment)
* Free Company Militia
10x Free Company Militia (Detachment)
* Knightly Orders Inner Circle (230pts)
Champion, 8x Knightly Orders Inner Circle, Lance and Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer
+ Special + (729pts)
* Demigryph Knights (174pts)
3x Inner Circle Knight, Lance
* Great Cannon (120pts)
* Greatswords (435pts)
(Regimental Unit)
Champion, 25x Greatswords, Musician, Standard Bearer
* Free Company Militia
10x Free Company Militia (Detachment)
* Swordsmen
10x Swordsmen (Detachment)
+ Rare + (250pts)
* Celestial Hurricanum (130pts)
* Helblaster Volley Gun (120pts)
Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)
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no comments / remarks about this latest list?
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I would drop musicians and the repeater pistol and add greatswords up to 28 and field them 7*4
Demigryphons should have a champion 3 wounds champions for 10 points are nice also you have to spread wounds on the demigryphons example 10 guys shoot at your gryphons 5 hits you have to allocate at least one shot to each model before you can spread them more at least that is the way I think it works.
you could also consider dropping all musicians and the champions on the halberdiers and greatswords drop two of your IC knights the banner on them too and instead of increasing the Greatswords to 28 reduce them to 21 and add a second cannon.
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I got the point of upping the GS to 28 from the Bat Rep thread, I think it will be better to go 28 then down to 21.. with 28 I still have full rank bonus with 2 dead, on 21 I'm already down a rank bonus (I rather want to win combats then loose them and then test on stubborn :smile2: )
I'll fiddle somehow to make it fit.
I won't be taking a second cannon as I think in the battles I had it served good enough to have just 1 cannon and the helblaster.
Also not sure what you mean with wound allocation but shooting and 5 wounds on DGK is 1 dead Demigryph and 1 with 2 wounds with the champion (if you have one) removed as last. Also 1 more attack at the Knight doesn't seem real worthwhile to me as the Unit is already 174 points, it gets really expensive if you put more points into it and they do attract alot and I mean ALOT of attention.. That might be toned down the coming months as opponents don't feel to threatend by them anymore but we will need to wait to see if that happens.
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I think I am wrong on the wound allocation thingy as the champion is part of a unit besides that the 10 points are still good invested as should he manage to kill an enemy character in a challenge you will earn extra victory points, that is not unlikely considering his 5 high Strength attacks.
Get it...its only 10 points!
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hmm thats true!
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Ok some adjustments then:
+++ Empire 8th ed AB 8th ed BRB 2500 (2498pts) +++
+++ 2500pt Empire 8th Ed AB and 8th Ed BRB Roster (Standard) +++
Selections:
+ Lords + (574pts)
* Arch Lector (349pts)
Heavy Armour
* Magic Items
AB - The White Cloak of Ulric, BRB - Enchanted Shield, BRB - Sword of Anti-Heroes
* War Altar of Sigmar
AB - The Golden Griffon, AB - The Horn of Sigismund
* Battle Wizard Lord (225pts)
Lore of Shadow, Wizard Level 4
* Magic Items
BRB - Dispel Scroll
+ Heroes + (298pts)
* Captain of the Empire (143pts)
Battle Standard Bearer, Full Plate Armour, Shield
* Magic Items
BRB - Dawnstone, BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - Sword of Striking
* Master Engineer (76pts)
Light Armour, Repeater Pistol
* Warrior Priest (79pts)
Heavy Armour, Shield
* Magic Items
BRB - Shrieking Blade
+ Core + (650pts)
* Halberdiers (420pts)
(Regimental Unit)
Champion, 40x Halberdiers, Musician, Standard Bearer
* Crossbowmen
10x Crossbowmen (Detachment)
* Free Company Militia
10x Free Company Militia (Detachment)
* Knightly Orders Inner Circle (230pts)
Champion, 8x Knightly Orders Inner Circle, Lance and Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer
+ Special + (726pts)
* Demigryph Knights (184pts)
Champion, 3x Inner Circle Knight, Lance
* Great Cannon (120pts)
* Greatswords (422pts)
(Regimental Unit)
Champion, 28x Greatswords, Musician, Standard Bearer
* Swordsmen
12x Swordsmen (Detachment)
+ Rare + (250pts)
* Celestial Hurricanum (130pts)
* Helblaster Volley Gun (120pts)
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Ok so it's time to think about a standard list now for me. For the upcoming Eurobash, but more imporantly for my painting goals I want to set. So I got 2 lists 2500 and 3000 where the 3k list is the 2500 list with some aditions. It should be a Griffon formation list within the limits of my units (Still don't own a Steamtank...), which I intend to run more agressivly then I did last Eurobash.
I would like some input on these, thanks!
+++ Empire 2014 2,5k (2499pts) +++
+++ 2500pt Empire 8th Ed AB and 8th Ed BRB Roster (Standard)) +++
Selections:
Empire 8th Ed AB and 8th Ed BRB (Standard) Selections:
+ Lords + (579pts)
* Arch Lector (354pts)
Heavy Armour
* Magic Items
AB - The White Cloak of Ulric, BRB - Enchanted Shield, BRB - Sword of Anti-Heroes, BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard
* War Altar of Sigmar
AB - The Golden Griffon
* Battle Wizard Lord (225pts)
Lore of Heavens, Wizard Level 4
* Magic Items
BRB - Dispel Scroll
+ Heroes + (333pts)
* Captain of the Empire (148pts)
Battle Standard Bearer, Full Plate Armour, Pistol, Shield
* Magic Items
BRB - Dawnstone, BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - Sword of Striking
* Master Engineer (66pts)
Light Armour
* Warrior Priest (119pts)
Heavy Armour, Shield
* Magic Items
AB - Van Horstmann's Speculum, BRB - Shrieking Blade
+ Core + (965pts)
* Archers (150pts)
(Regimental Unit, Skirmishers)
10x Archers, Musician
* Archers
5x Archers (Detachment, Skirmishers)
* Archers
5x Archers (Detachment, Skirmishers)
* Halberdiers (525pts)
(Regimental Unit)
Champion, 50x Halberdiers, Musician, Standard Bearer
* Free Company Militia
15x Free Company Militia (Detachment)
* Swordsmen
15x Swordsmen (Detachment)
* Knightly Orders Inner Circle (290pts)
Champion, 10x Knightly Orders Inner Circle, Lance and Shield, Musician
* Standard Bearer
BRB - Banner of Eternal Flame
+ Special + (372pts)
* Demigryph Knights (252pts)
Champion, 4x Inner Circle Knight, Lance, Musician
* Great Cannon (120pts)
+ Rare + (250pts)
* Celestial Hurricanum (130pts)
* Helblaster Volley Gun (120pts)
changed and added for the 3k list:
+++ Empire 2014 3k (2999pts) +++
+++ 3000pt Empire 8th Ed AB and 8th Ed BRB Roster (Standard)) +++
Selections:
Empire 8th Ed AB and 8th Ed BRB (Standard) Selections:
+ Lords +
none
+ Heroes +
* Master Engineer (76pts)
Light Armour, Repeater Pistol
+ Core +
* Knightly Orders (250pts)
(Swiftstride)
Champion, Great Weapon, 10x Knightly Orders, Musician, Standard Bearer
+ Special +
* Great Cannon (120pts)
* Pistoliers (120pts)
Musician, 5x Pistoliers
* Champion
Brace of Pistols including a Repeater Pistol
Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)
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It looks great, but your BSB and WP both seem to have the Dragonhelm.
K.
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It looks great, but your BSB and WP both seem to have the Dragonhelm.
K.
Woops, I'll fix that this evening..
Swapped the loadout on the WP for AB - Van Horstmann's Speculum, BRB - Shrieking Blade
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Hey, I like the look of the list and unit choices. Though I do question your choice of kit for your arch lector and wonder if the alter is necessary? Your lector should really stay out of combat, unlike last editions war alter, this one is very squishy and so is the lector himself. He has the sword of antiheroes which suggests you want him to charge enemy character buses? Its probably not the best idea to do this though as he only has a 2+AS, 5+ ward, and even though he has -1 to hit from the cloak, he only has WS4, so every other character in the game will still hit him on 4's. I feel he is better suited as a buff wagon kitted purely for defence and kept cheap with only a charmed shield, 2++ agaisnt flaming (for skull cannons, dwarf flaming cannons, flaming spells), and a standard 4+ ward if you really want it (though I wouldn't). This build he weighs in at 265pts, almost 100pts cheaper. Unless your running a light council I would leave the war alter at home, for those 350+pts you could get a WP for every unit anyway. Unless you have a specific use for him that I have completely missed? Like I said, I think the rest of the list is great, just unsure on the lector, and what you plan on using him for. Let me know what you think.
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Tnx, for your comments, it certainly is something to think about. Looking at past battles I use him as a buff wagon, but use him also for support charges if my combat block are going to have it though against character heavy units thinking about Vampire for example.
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So might be an option to drop the War Altar and put my AL on foot and mount my WP to join my Knight unit? Any extra ideas on this or to add on it?
So how is this for a solution in the character department, leaving the rest untouched (and keeping the upgrades for the 3k list as mentioned)
+++ Empire 2014 2,5k (2500pts) +++
+++ 2500pt Empire 8th Ed AB and 8th Ed BRB Roster (Standard)) +++
Selections:
Empire 8th Ed AB and 8th Ed BRB (Standard) Selections:
+ Lords + (425pts)
* Arch Lector (200pts)
Light Armour
* Magic Items
AB - Armour of Meteoric Iron, BRB - Fencer's Blades, BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard
* Battle Wizard Lord (225pts)
Lore of Heavens, Wizard Level 4
* Magic Items
BRB - Dispel Scroll
+ Heroes + (488pts)
* Captain of the Empire (143pts)
Battle Standard Bearer, Full Plate Armour, Shield
* Magic Items
BRB - Dawnstone, BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - Sword of Striking
* Captain of the Empire (145pts)
Full Plate Armour, Lance, Shield
* Imperial Pegasus
Iron-hard Hooves
* Magic Items
AB - Helm of the Skavenslayer, BRB - Dragonbane Gem
* Master Engineer (65pts)
* Warrior Priest (135pts)
Heavy Armour, Shield
* Magic Items
AB - Van Horstmann's Speculum, BRB - Shrieking Blade
* Warhorse
Barding
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