Topic: Steg's Armylists (2.5k & 3k list settling for a fixed army to be painted)

[MrAbyssal]

For extra tactical flexibility I'd probably swap the AL for 2 Warrior Priests (1 mounted) so you can always put a WP in with both Knight units and it just becomes a case of where the TGM goes - as you'll need more points to do this I'd drop the Engineer or the Beast Wizard. The IC knights with a WP on their own will be a nice hammer and the third WP can be on foot with the Halbs. You'll also still get the same number of Prayers (but with a larger potential area of affect) and the same number of extra dispel dice.

The downside with the above is that your Ld 9 TGM general will be running around with one of the knight units but most of the big combats where you'll need it will involve him or probably have him nearby so it shouldn't make too much of a difference. With the characters in your infantry units you should still be testing on re-rollable Ld 8 for any panic tests if they have to take them while the TGM is off with his cavalry buddies. the items could probably do with some tweaking but they're not exactly bad at the moment.

Other than that I'm really liking the list. It's the way I've been wanting to play Empire since 5th edition when I started playing and thanks to 8th it's actually effective now. Hopefully the list works better for you next time 

[StealthKnightSteg]

For extra tactical flexibility I'd probably swap the AL for 2 Warrior Priests (1 mounted) so you can always put a WP in with both Knight units and it just becomes a case of where the TGM goes - as you'll need more points to do this I'd drop the Engineer or the Beast Wizard. The IC knights with a WP on their own will be a nice hammer and the third WP can be on foot with the Halbs. You'll also still get the same number of Prayers (but with a larger potential area of affect) and the same number of extra dispel dice.

The downside with the above is that your Ld 9 TGM general will be running around with one of the knight units but most of the big combats where you'll need it will involve him or probably have him nearby so it shouldn't make too much of a difference. With the characters in your infantry units you should still be testing on re-rollable Ld 8 for any panic tests if they have to take them while the TGM is off with his cavalry buddies. the items could probably do with some tweaking but they're not exactly bad at the moment.

Other than that I'm really liking the list. It's the way I've been wanting to play Empire since 5th edition when I started playing and thanks to 8th it's actually effective now. Hopefully the list works better for you next time 

swapping the AL for 2 WP's isn't actually a bad idea for adding a WP to both Knight units. Thing is I'm not worried that much about the LD bubble not reaching as I want this setup to be compact (flanking units that my core engages), trouble I have is that the TGM (and the unit he is with) will attract alot of attention.. Loosing him is loosing the bubble completly. And you'll be surprised how often I even fail the Ld9 test 
 
Dropping the Engineer or Beast Wizard is a tough choice, I'll see if I can manage to swap some around to make your suggestion work, if not I'll field run this list (with adjusted magic items) first.

[MrAbyssal]

Good luck. Hopefully it works better than the last outing. In general it's a solid list. We're really just optimising at this point. Hopefully having 2 knight units, plus the big infantry units (with annoying distraction detachments), and the pistoliers, and the artillery will give too many targets. Even without the TGM, 8-9 IC knights with a WP will still pack a decent punch should the opponent forget about them.

[Noble Korhedron]

Steg, I would do the following:

* Keep the marksmans' handgun - drop the brace of pistols
* Swap the Helstorm for a Mortar and drop Halberds to 30 from 38 - use these points for either a small flagellant unit or greatsword flanker unit
* Swap AoMI to the warrior priest
* Replace it with full plate' and shield on the captain - with Dawnstone that's a re-rollable 3+ - still good odds.
* Forget the Crimson amulet - he should have either a Holy Relic or Shroud of Magnus - 6+ wards are pointless on characters.

[StealthKnightSteg]

Steg, I would do the following:

* Keep the marksmans' handgun - drop the brace of pistols
* Swap the Helstorm for a Mortar and drop Halberds to 30 from 38 - use these points for either a small flagellant unit or greatsword flanker unit
* Swap AoMI to the warrior priest
* Replace it with full plate' and shield on the captain - with Dawnstone that's a re-rollable 3+ - still good odds.
* Forget the Crimson amulet - he should have either a Holy Relic or Shroud of Magnus - 6+ wards are pointless on characters.

Thanks for the comments, but ehmm what list are you referring to? I don't think it is one of the latest 2 lists

[StealthKnightSteg]

I took MrAbbysal's tip and worked it out a bit more, and I think I am now really satisfied with the list, although it might seem a bit character heavy.

Revised 2500 List
(Revised 2400 List, dropping the Battle Wizard and the Luckstone)
 
Lords:
Johan van den Kornput
118pt General of the Empire
   General, Dawn Armour, Shield (with halbs or swords)
215pt Templar Grand Master of the White Wolf
   Full Plate Armour, Shield, Lance, Sword of Sigismund, Dawnstone (with (IC?) Knights)
Jan van Horne
210pt Wiz Lord
   (Life), lvl 4 (with Xbow)
 
543pt total (max 600)
 
Heroes:
Willem Corneliszoon van Duyvenbode
105pt CotE
   BSB, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Luckstone (with halbs or swords)
Godfried van Mervel
145pt Warrior Priest
   Barded Warhorse, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sword of Might, VHS  (With (IC?) Knights)
Jacob Blommaert
110pt Warrior Priest
   Barded Warhorse, Heavy Armour, Shield (with the other Knights then the TGM/ VHS WP)
Joost de Moor
95pt Battle Wizard
   (Beasts) lvl 1, RoP
Adriaen van Bergen
65pt Engineer
 
520pt total (max 600)
 
Core:
170pt 30 Halbs, FC, led by: Lancelot van Brederode
205pt 30 Swords, FC, led by: Otto van Gendt
224pt 8 Knights GW, FC
140pt 15 Xbow, SB, Banner of Eternal Flame
 
739pt total (min 600)
 
Detachments:
30pt 6 Free Company (with Halberdiers)
30pt 6 Free Company (with Swordsmen)
 
60pt total (xxx)
 
Special:
248pt 8 IC Knights GW, FC, led by: Wolfert van Borselen
114pt 5 Pistoliers, Mus, Outrider w. Repeater Pistol, led by: Barthout Entens van Mentheda
100pt Great Cannon
100pt Great Cannon
75pt Mortar
 
637pt total (max 1200)
 
2499pt Army total

Thoughts:
- Took a GotE to pick up the flaming banner and to keep the LD bubble with my core.
- Added the 2nd WP in to give both Knight units hatred.
- The wizards have a pure support role here.
- Kept most characters pretty clean of Magic Items to not hamper my normal units too much. Just added a few basics.
- CC detachments still there for the flank/charge bonus.
- Knights to occupy both or one flank depending on where I might get an oppening.
- Pistoliers to harass and annoy and to kill some warmachines or small units.

[Noble Korhedron]

You're correct, it isn't!! Ooops!!

I would change the following in your new list:
* Lv. 4 needs a ward save - without one he's just free points for enemy warmachine hunters/fastfcavalry
* Consider dropping the Lv. 1 and transferring the RoP to the Lv. 4
* Where does the Engineer go - has he proven worth his points in this and other lists?
* Consider dropping one cannon and increasing your detachments to 10+ or any size where they can actually disrupt formations.......

[StealthKnightSteg]

You're correct, it isn't!! Ooops!!

I would change the following in your new list:
* Lv. 4 needs a ward save - without one he's just free points for enemy warmachine hunters/fastfcavalry
* Consider dropping the Lv. 1 and transferring the RoP to the Lv. 4
* Where does the Engineer go - has he proven worth his points in this and other lists?
* Consider dropping one cannon and increasing your detachments to 10+ or any size where they can actually disrupt formations.......

I have considered ward saves, but I wanted in this list the points for characters as low as possible (as there are alot already) and in my experience sofar I haven't seen any reall attempts on killing my wizards early game. Both wizards in this list only have a support role and I'm not expecting a big impact from them on the game.

Engineer goes withing 3" of all the warmachines to use his re-roll where needed. And I'm of the opinion you can't really go without anymore it makes your warmachines so much more effective.

Dropping a cannon with already only 3 warmachines? Besides my detachments are only there to provide some cover to other units and to help with an first round combat result (flank + charge). Really breaking the units are what both knight units will suppose to be doing.

[Noble Korhedron]

@StealthKnightSteg: O.K. I see your point regarding characters. Might I suggest instead swapping the cannon anyway - but for a mortar? I just think a Mortar is better as they kill more, I.M.O. Sure you can kill an entire rank with cannons, but what's that, 3-5 models out of 25+? Not even enough for panic......

[StealthKnightSteg]

@StealthKnightSteg: O.K. I see your point regarding characters. Might I suggest instead swapping the cannon anyway - but for a mortar? I just think a Mortar is better as they kill more, I.M.O. Sure you can kill an entire rank with cannons, but what's that, 3-5 models out of 25+? Not even enough for panic......

I was thinking that myself aswell, but my reasoning for 2 cannons vs 2 mortars is that I can roll up the big blocks with my own blocks with the knight support. The things I actually do not want to engage are HPA, Giants etc. That is why I choose the cannons to take those out.

[MrAbyssal]

When's your next game?

[StealthKnightSteg]

When's your next game?

Saturday evening, but it's the old 2k game that needs to be finished... Dunno when and if I can field test this 2.5 (or 2.4) list before the local tourn..
 
I do not have a lot of time on my hands to game on a regular basis unfortunatly (I'm lucky to manage 1 game per month)

[Cannonofdoom]

I am curious why you put a luckstone on a guy who already is wearing the dawn armor.

[StealthKnightSteg]

I am curious why you put a luckstone on a guy who already is wearing the dawn armor.

Well actually, I was fidling with the list and had 5 points to toss somewhere, and not really paying attention where to put it.. besides the fact I needed something to differ 100 points so I could toss it out.
 
With more thought it would be awesome to make him even more survivable... failed AS roll, re-roll failed, Luckstone!! Afterall he is my General..

[MrAbyssal]

That's still better than what I manage at the moment.

No point having the luckstone on him with Dawn Armour as can't re-roll a re-roll.

[StealthKnightSteg]

That's still better than what I manage at the moment.

No point having the luckstone on him with Dawn Armour as can't re-roll a re-roll.

Is it a re-roll on the luckstone? Hmm in my mind (at work) it was an ignore thing. If it is a re-roll thing then it will go to my BSB.

[Cannonofdoom]

That's still better than what I manage at the moment.

No point having the luckstone on him with Dawn Armour as can't re-roll a re-roll.

Is it a re-roll on the luckstone? Hmm in my mind (at work) it was an ignore thing. If it is a re-roll thing then it will go to my BSB.

Re-roll a single failed armor save.

[StealthKnightSteg]

That's still better than what I manage at the moment.

No point having the luckstone on him with Dawn Armour as can't re-roll a re-roll.

Is it a re-roll on the luckstone? Hmm in my mind (at work) it was an ignore thing. If it is a re-roll thing then it will go to my BSB.

Re-roll a single failed armor save.

fixed it! 

[Cannonofdoom]

 

[Willem I]

So with my insights from the Eurobash a new 2000 List

Lords:
223pt Arch Lector
    Dawn Armour, Shield, Hammer of Anti-Heroes, VHS
235pt Wizard Lord
    Level 4, Lore of Fire, Dispell Scroll

458 / 500

Heroes:
125pt CotE
    Battle Standard Bearer, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Dawnstone
139pt Warrior Priest
   Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, Hammer of Fate
95pt Battle Wizard
    Level 1, Lore of Beasts, Rod of Power
65pt Engineer

424 / 500

Core
220pt 40 Halberdiers
    Full Command
205pt 30 Swordsmen
    Full Command
80pt 10 Crossbowmen

505 / 500

Detachments
30pt 6 Free Company (with Halberdiers)
30pt 6 Free Company (with Swordsmen)
48pt 6 Handgunners (with Halberdiers)

108 / XXX

Special
114pt 5 Pistoliers
   Musician, Outrider with Repeater Pistol
100pt Great Cannon
100pt Great Cannon
75pt Mortar

389 / 1000

Rare
115pt Helstorm Rocket Battery

115 / 500

Total: 1999

Today I am going to do my first 2k pts battle, against O&G. As I have no idea what works or not, I am going to use your list today, Steg. I will let you know how it goes I was thinking of switching the lore of fire to light, but on second thought I would rather 'stick to the list' and see how it goes.

Averland 8th Militia on the move to punish some Greenskins that dare cross our border!

[StealthKnightSteg]

Well good luck on your battle, I am very interested in how it went, also I am very proud that you took my list to try it out

[Willem I]

Okay, I love Rocket Batteries! I got two battles off, and will be making the battle-report in the coming days. A short question from my Chaos opponent: is there anything he can do to counter the VHS? In his perception that one item virtually makes all his characters useless.

And the battle-report vs Orcs & Goblins is up here.

[Cannonofdoom]

A short question from my Chaos opponent: is there anything he can do to counter the VHS? In his perception that one item virtually makes all his characters useless.

Yes, he can challenge with wizards and unit champions (if he has a War Shrine), while using his big combat guys to kill regular troops. Or avoid the unit that has it. Or just suck it up and realize that he's just feeling the pain that is Empire character stats.

[StealthKnightSteg]

A short question from my Chaos opponent: is there anything he can do to counter the VHS? In his perception that one item virtually makes all his characters useless.

Yes, he can challenge with wizards and unit champions (if he has a War Shrine), while using his big combat guys to kill regular troops. Or avoid the unit that has it. Or just suck it up and realize that he's just feeling the pain that is Empire character stats.

This!! And the Hammer (Sword) of Anti-Heroes just makes it even worse  Also the Make Way rule makes this even better as you can try to position your AL as good as possible if your not in a challenge, connecting to a Lord and his BSB if they are close or even also with a wizard of his.

[Willem I]

Its a mean list! I love it