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Author Topic: Konrad's attempts at playing gunline-TVI [T9A]  (Read 2381 times)

Offline Warlord

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Re: Would this kind of battleline work? [T9A]
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2017, 01:52:06 PM »
Cool. I like your answers. As a general question to anyone reading this who player in 8th edition, do we think 8th edition killed the gunline? Do we think people will still have the same hard feelings towards it like they used to in 6th / 7th?
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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Would this kind of battleline work? [T9A]
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2017, 09:55:15 PM »
Revisiting this topic. I have been inactive on the miniatures wargaming front lately. But, since last time, T9A 2.0 has become imminent, and previews of changes have been given.

Most essentially, Support Units that are within 6'' of Parent Units both shoot and fight in close combat in an extra rank! Sigmar with tits Sunna is merciful! To think that during 1.3, I was using handgunners 3 ranks deep anyway just for staying power. Call me crazy, but I'm seriously thinking of having the shooty detachments be even 4 ranks deep, in light of this upcoming change, for the same rationale why I went 3 deep in the first place.

Another, mixed bag is that the order to improve shooting doesn't give +6'' range, but rather, Accurate, i.e. no to-hit penalty for long range. While that is a raw increase of firepower, it doesn't give the versatility of extending shooting range, or the dynamism I'd envisioned with two handgunner and two crossbow units and boost the range of either depending on circumstances.
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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Would this kind of battleline work? [T9A]
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2018, 09:39:19 PM »
GAME 4. DWARVEN HOLDS #2

First game under T9A 2.0 beta 0.201. I tried the following list:

Marshal [General]; Imperial Seal, Lucky Charm, Great Weapon, Great Tactician: 325 pts
Marshal [BSB]; The Black Plate, Death Warrant, Shield: 265 pts

25 Imperial Guard; FCG, Household Standard: 485 pts
25 Swordsmen; FCG: 260 pts
25 Swordsmen; FCG: 260 pts
15 Handgunners; Standard: 220 pts
15 Handgunners; Standard: 220 pts
15 Crossbowmen; Standard: 220 pts
15 Crossbowmen; Standard: 220 pts

5 Electoral Cavalry; Standard, Musician, Shields: 240 pts
5 Electoral Cavalry; Standard, Musician, Shields: 240 pts
5 Reiters; Brace of Pistols: 180 pts
5 Reiters; Brace of Pistols: 180 pts

10 State Militia; Pistols, Skirmishers: 130 pts
5 Imperial Rangers; 90 pts
5 Imperial Rangers; 90 pts

1 Cannon: 255 pts
1 Cannon: 255 pts
1 Imperial Rocketeer: 180 pts
1 Imperial Rocketeer: 180 pts

4495 pts, 13.11% Characters, 44.67% Core, 10.78% Special, 34.44% Imperial Auxiliaries, 19.33% Imperial Armoury

If I would have had battle-ready models, I would have used halberdiers instead of the swordsmen, and found the points by shaving off two Imperial Guard and the Lucky Charm. I was requested to bring and showcase my army at the club, so I went with what I had painted and ready.

Against me was the same guy from Game #2. It was almost a year ago, and he was not such a newbie anymore. His army could be described as MSU backed by plentiful gunnery. His mainstay combat units were 15 kingsguard hosting both his general and bsb, two units of 10 greybeards with hw+shield, and two units of 15 clan warriors with spears and shields, and a unit of 3 hold guardians (think T5 robo-dwarf monstrous infantry).

Deployment was refused flank (which I hate, all three of my 4500 pts games have been that!). Objective was to hold the center of the field on the end of as many game turns as possible from the second onward. I won the roll for choice of deployment zone, I picked the one that gave us both a deployment zone hill, rather than made the hills block LOS between the zones. He dropped his entire army at once to grab the first turn. Though I was able to deploy reactively, there wasn't much to do to react, the length of my battleline and the effective narrowing of the zone due to the diagonal deployment meant there wasn't much feasible variation. There was no sensible place either for my scouts to deploy, nor really any space for sweeping cavalry maneuvers around his flanks.

He went with crossbowmen on both flanks, and a wide front of close combat units in between, and (obviously) his artillery battery of two engineer-supported organ guns and one cannon on his hill. As there was little space for cavalry maneuvers, I did a gamble and tried to rush his artillery hill with both pistolier and one electoral cavalry unit. My main infantry battleline was a bit offset left, with one electoral cavalry unit on the far left. The main infantry line went:

Crossbows - Swordsmen - Handguns - Imperial Guard w. General & BSB - Handguns - Swordsmen - Crossbowmen

My skirmishers went on my right flank, which was partitioned from the centre and left by a piece of impassable terrain. I intended to use those to delay his close combat units on that flank while I'd win in the centre and the left.

Onward came the dwarfs barreling, particularly his hold guardians who vanguarded and were in my face after his first turn. I swung around with the electoral cavalry to prepare a flanking move, and set up a swordsman and a crossbowman unit to receive it. Light infantry units got Accurate orders elsewhere and peppered his oncoming advance in the centre. The cavalry gamble against his artillery hill largely failed, only two pistoliers made it through, and they failed to break an organ gun, just held it occupied for two of his shooting phases. Second turn, his hold guardians charged, crossbowmen received, suffered losses but held due to inherited steadfast from parent unit. His dwarfs came closer in the centre. On the right, things went tits up as an unlucky flee roll by the rangers failed to get them out of the way of a charge by his greybeards, who contrary to the plan, were now going to reach the centre way sooner than anticipated.

On my second turn, I could have shot up the dwarfs another turn, but instead saw an opportunity for a bold counter-move. In the centre, the Imperial Guard and a handgunner support unit combine-charged his greybeards, while a swordsman and a crossbowman unit in the centre-right combine-charged a speardwarf unit. I charged right past his kingsguard, which I sacrificed one handgunner unit to chaff for a turn. I figured that the load of static combat score would be enough to do in these dwarf units, which were neither super-killy nor stubborn. Against the hold guardians on the far left, the electoral cavalry charged their rear and a swordsman unit their flank. Hold guardians inflicted 7 wounds, I inflicted none, but I got 11 points of static combat score, won, and broke them. Feels Empire man. The Imperial Guard and their handgunner support broke and ran over the greybeards. The swordsmen and crossbowmen taking on the speardwars on the center-right lost, though. I had misjudged that particular combat, some post-game mathhammer showed that while I was expected to win the combat, I wasn't by anywhere near enough to reliably break them.

What then happened is that I pressed onward on my left flank and killed some crossbowdwarfs and speardwarfs, choosing to pile in with the units from both won fights. As the other greybeards on my right flank arrived, that part of the battlefield was lost to me, I decided to refuse his kingsguard unit kills and instead go for kills elsewhere. While my Imperial Guard performed well in close combat, they had to spend turn 3 to march to position themselves for a charge on turn 4, and got badly shot up by his organ guns in the process. The Imperial Rocketeers eventually managed to shut down his organ guns and kill the engineers too.

We were short on time and had to end after game turn 4, we agreed on what units would probably die before the game was up, and that he'd win the objective. Looking back, had I not done pursuit moves on my right-flank attack on game turn 4, I might have made it back to the centre to contest it for the end of the game. The result was 11-9 in kills to me, turned into 12-8 to him from winning the objective.

Another bunch of important lessons learned. Cavalry should be kept in reserve if there's nothing better for it to do, those pistoliers would probably have come in handy peppering his units after the centre-right had gone pear-shaped. 15-man light infantry support units are entirely viable as close combat support units for well-timed counterpunches when the enemy advances on your line, their use just requires judicious assessment of what they're capable of handling. Also, I could probably have benefited from being better at predicting the flow of the game, instead of going all out attacking on my left flank, I could have turned some of those gun barrels towards the centre. Somehow I didn't properly estimate the relative sizes of our kill piles, I somehow thouht I'd be well ahead in points and win if I rolled everything on the left flank, regardless of losing the objective.

Engineered organ guns are vicious, I suspect I'd have done better just deploying entirely outside their range and let him come to me. My rockets and cannons outrange his organ guns at any rate. Also, I need halberdiers. S3 AP0 attacks are just miserable against a number of enemies. But I knew that already, I went for a sub-optimal composition to show off my painting work. The guy who'd requested it didn't even show up.

A fun game nonetheless, I particularly like the notion of a gunline suddenly charging out of its position to deliver a well-placed counterpunch. Also, static combat score isn't dead, don't let anyone tell you that. Also, don't let anyone tell you that massed handgunner or crossbow support units make for a static game! Two of my four such units had made it pretty much to the opposite long table edge by turn 4, a third had charged on turn 2, and a fourth been sacrificed to chaff the most dangerous enemy unit.

All in all, a game that I think validates and showcases the strength of this concept, which is pretty much TVI tactics/doctrine applied to a gunline. My successes were due to the army working as intended and as planned, and my failures due to entirely avoidable mistakes, and the pressures of time.
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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Konrad's attempts at playing gunline-TVI [T9A]
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2018, 01:24:37 PM »
Changed the thread subject. Perhaps a bit pretentious to call it gunline-TVI, but I feel my latest development of this idea is basically that, applying TVI principles to gunline play.
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Offline Zygmund

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Re: Konrad's attempts at playing gunline-TVI [T9A]
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2018, 10:20:02 AM »
Like the report. Good analysis too. Also like how T9A lets the goal-oriented win despite losing in kills (your 11-9 turned into his 12-8).

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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Konrad's attempts at playing gunline-TVI [T9A]
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2018, 01:02:02 PM »
That is indeed true. If we'd have had proper time to finish the game, and I wouldn't have been in frantic speedplay mode on turns 3 and 4, I would likely have not pursued with some of the units that broke their enemies on the left flank on turn 4, but instead post-combat pivoted and used the march orders to get to the objective for contesting it on game turn 6. Then he would either have forfeited the objective and neither of us gotten it, or he would have had to reassign his kingsguard and been unable to eat my artillery. A very satisfactory game thus which, however, was unfortunately cut short. The kind of game that leaves you hungry for more action.
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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Konrad's attempts at playing gunline-TVI [T9A]
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2018, 08:23:11 PM »
GAME 5. HIGHBORN ELVES #2, PART 1

I now tried a slight variation of the concept, with three units of HW+Shield Imperial Guard as parent units, with the Household Standard (the thingy that extends General's leadership and order range to 18'') on the BSB, to allow the two of them to be repositioned and be bodyguarded by any of the three parent units. I also realized that the pistol milita unit I've been using is a bit ungainly, and thought to instead go for a whole three units of Imperial Rangers (huntsmen in old Empire terms), that can be deployed as scouts ahead of the main force, making them get less in the way and positioning them better to interfere with enemy movement. Otherwise, much the same. Army list:

Marshal [General, 375pts]: Great Tactician , Shield, Death​ ​Warrant​, Imperial​ ​Seal​, Lucky Charm
Marshal [BSB, 260pts]: Shield, Blacksteel​, Household​ ​Standard

18x Imperial​ ​Guard​ [309pts]: Full Command
20 Imperial​ ​Guard​ [345pts]: Full Command
20 Imperial​ ​Guard​ [345pts]: Full Command
15 Handgunners [220pts]: Standard Bearer
15 Handgunners [220pts]: Standard Bearer
15 Crossbowmen [220pts]: Standard Bearer
15 Crossbowmen [220pts]: Standard Bearer

5 Electoral​ ​Cavalry​ [240pts]: Standard Bearer, Musician, Shields
5 Electoral​ ​Cavalry​ [240pts]: Standard Bearer, Musician, Shields
5 Reiters​ [180pts]: Brace of Pistols
5 Reiters​ [180pts]: Brace of Pistols

Cannon [255pts]
Cannon [255pts]
Imperial​ ​Rocketeer [180pts]
Imperial​ ​Rocketeer [180pts]

5 Imperial​ ​Rangers​ [90pts]
5 Imperial​ ​Rangers​ [90pts]
5 Imperial​ ​Rangers​ [90pts]

Opponent's army was a fairly offensive infantry army, built around a mini-deathstar of 24 Lion Guard with both his General (Canreig Tower Wizard-Prince with the new-fangled foot hero spear of ultimate facewrecking) and his BSB, and two units of 25 spearelves equipped with the new-fangled War Banner of Ryma (gives swiftstride and +1 strength & AP on the charge). Supporting all that were two units of reaver light cavalry, three elven bolt throwers, two units of Grey Watchers (shadow warriors in ye olde game) and two units of Queensguard (super elite archers with S4 bows).

I won the roll for choice of deployment zone. Deployment was Encircle, which means one player gets to deploy closer to the mid-line on the flanks and farther from the mid-line in the centre, while the other player does the opposite. I chose the former. Part because it denied him the use of a deployment zone hill, part because it predisposed him to deploy in the centre, making any attempt by him to do a refused flank cause his units to start far back. Secondary objective was Hold the Ground, i.e. have the most scoring units within 6'' of the centre of the board at the end of every game turn, starting with the second, with the player getting it on the most turns scoring the objective.

The first deployment drops were cavalry by us on the flanks, then he plonked down a spearelf unit in the middle. Once I'd deployed all my four cavalry units, the next thing I did was drop the whole army in order to seize the first turn, putting down my main battalion of parent units and support units in an alternating line in the centre, and one of each artillery piece on the flanks. His deployment, in response, was to put the lion guard alongside the spearelves in the centre, the other spearelf unit on the left flank (i.e. his right, I'm calling the flanks according to my point of view for clarity). Queensguard took up position behind a wall of hard cover in the centre, and the grey watchers went one on each flank. His bolt throwers went all on the right flank. Come scout deployment, I decide I need firepower on the right flank to clear it of his light cavalry, so I put two ranger units there, and the third in front of the main battalion to skirmish.

My first turn, my pistoliers race forward to shoot his light cavalry, which they did and wiped them out with a little help from the rest of my line. Electoral cavalry races forwards on both my flanks, on the right in order to hunt warmachines and the grey watchers over there, and on the left to present a threat to his grey watchers there, and to bait/force the left flank spearelves to charge them and lose time chasing them, delaying their participation in the expected eventual clash in the centre.

An impassable building sits in the middle of the board, just to the right of the objective mid-point, separating the centre from the right flank. I swung around my line and let the Imperial Guard farthest to the right move up towards the house, to create a flanking threat to anything moving to attack my main battalion. The crossbowmen farthest to the right in the battalion didn't have anything in front of them to shoot at, so I gave them the order for extra movement and made a long 12'' march, intending to move past the house and swing in towards the centre for some extra envelopment, or take the queensguard in the flank.

A photo of the battlefield after Empire turn 1. It was hastily taken with a mobile phone camera so quality is awful, but it should show what's where.



Swordsmen are used to proxy HW+Shield Imperial Guard. The bronze button to the left of the house marks the centre of the board, the objective to be held.

To be continued...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 11:08:02 PM by Konrad von Richtmark »
The only good thing about 7th ed heads is that they look particularly inbred and superstitious which is perfect for Stirlanders

Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Konrad's attempts at playing gunline-TVI [T9A]
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2018, 10:04:37 PM »
GAME 5. HIGHBORN ELVES #2, PART 2

His first turn. On the right flank, his grey watchers charged my reiters who were, I hadn't realized, in a rather exposed position for that, flank turned to them. Reiters chose to flee, but made an unfortunately long flee move, with three of the five knocking themselves out of the action bumping into the house. The failed charge by the grey watchers left them in turn exposed to a flank charge by my electoral cavalry who'd be in a position to then overrun into one of his bolt throwers. Only, that wouldn't come to pass, since his bolt throwers opened up and killed three electoral cavalry and panicked the remaining two. My right-flank attack had been repulsed for now. On the left flank, his spearelves charged my other reiters, who also fled, making him fail that charge and thus delaying the advance of those spearelves, just as planned. In the centre though, he did not advance. Rather, he stayed just out of range of my handguns, used the superior range of his queensguard to shoot at me, and moved his lion guard just close enough for his general to cast the metalshifting spell at my left-flank electoral cavalry. Two were fried in their armour, the remaining three panicked off the table.

My second turn. Having nothing in handgun range and with my right-flank attack stalled, I moved forward with my infantry battalion. Handguns would, at least, be shooting this turn, even if at -2. The rightmost unit of Imperial Guard dipped its toes into the objective capture radius. On the left flank, the reiters rallied and moved back for another round of shooting at and delaying the spearelves. On the right flank, having failed to use my electoral cavalry to sweep away the grey watchers, I couldn't move onward with the crossbowmen for the flanking maneuver I had planned, without exposing them too to the danger of being flank charged by the watchers. From that point on, the right flank turned into a shooting match, a state it would be in for the rest of the game, and the outcome largely one of my rocket battery wiping out his bolt throwers and his elite archers picking off my less-than-elite archers. The electoral cavalry did manage to rally and would force one flee move from the grey watchers on my turn 3 before finally succumbing to a hail of elven bolts.

His second turn. Now I was contesting the objective. He could have pulled slightly back and kept on trying to win a shooting match by out-ranging me, but that would have meant forfeiting the objective. Instead, he went for a general advance. Left flank spearelves charged the reiters again, reiters successfully fled again, spearelves slogged forward highly delayed just as planned by me. His other spearelf unit in the centre also dipped its toes into the objective capture radius to deny me the capture token for game turn 2. On the right flank, his shooting panicked my crossbowmen.

My third turn. Now the action was on, he was committed to a general advance. To delay his lion guard, I moved my ranger unit in the centre right in front of it, sacrificing it to disrupt the coordination of his combat units' arrival at my line. Small arms fire was focused on the spearelves in the centre, as they'd be the ones in position to charge me on his next turn. Spearelves were reduced down to about half their initial number, significantly reducing the number of attacks they'd put out next turn (which would be at S4 AP2 due to the Ryma banner). Over on the left flank though, his grey watchers were now in a position from which they would have been able to charge my reiters, should they continue march-trolling the spearelves. Reiters instead rode to the flank and shot from there.



The board position after my turn 3. Right flank has become a standstill of a shooting match, the crossbowmen that fled have rallied and turned their weapons towards the centre where the decisive action is expected. His left flank has finally become free to advance unhindered but is still quite out of position. In the centre, I'm blocking one of his units' advance and have shot up the other enough that I expect to be able to receive its charge.

I realized afterward though that my ranger sacrifice didn't do that much, since he could anyway overrun. I should have placed them at an angle turning his lion guard towards the left flank. Then he would have had to choose between overrunning in an unfavourable direction or just post-combat pivoted. Live and learn. Also, I should probably have let my reiters march-troll his spearelves one turn more. If he'd charged first with the grey watchers to see them off, the watchers might have ended up in the way of the spearelves, fulfilling much the same purpose.

To be continued...
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 10:09:59 PM by Konrad von Richtmark »
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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Konrad's attempts at playing gunline-TVI [T9A]
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2018, 07:51:57 PM »
GAME 5. HIGHBORN ELVES #2, PART 3

Come his third turn. The right flank settled into an uneventful shooting match for the rest of the game, so nothing more about that. In the centre, his spearelves in the objective capture circle charged my imperial guard on the other edge of the capture circle. I held and countercharged with handgunners. His Lion Guard charged the rangers blocking them. His spearelves on the left flank marched onward, past the pond to the right side of it. His grey watchers turned to face the reiters to not get flank charged, and shot one of them. His queensguard kept raining arrows at my handgunner support units. Close combat. The lion guard shredded the rangers who'd stepped in front of them and overran. The spearelves charged with the strength boosted by their banner and their toughness by magic, but having lost a fair number of fighting models to gunnery before making contact, I handily won that round, though the combined presence of his general and BSB in the vicinity made them hold. Spearelf numbers were dwindling though, and for them to break just a matter of time unless he'd get in reinforcements. As the countercharge by the handgunners had brought them into the objective capture circle, I now had two units there against his one, so I scored the capture token for game turn 3.

My fourth turn. His lion guard are imminently going to contact my battleline, so I needed to prepare for that. I counted on being able to break the spearelves I was in combat with. The second handgunner unit was depleted from his shooting, so I moved it in front of his lion guard to delay it for another turn, while waiting for the combat with the spearelves to clear and to move my three imperial guard units in positions to envelop the lion guard. To my chagrin though, I found out that despite giving an order for faster movement, I was unable to position the leftmost imperial guard unit in a way that both prepared it to flank the lion guard and kept the left-flank spearelves in its front zone. I settled for just letting it move up to take on the spearelves, with the crossbowmen on the left flank moved up in support. A bit of a derp moment there, I would have accomplished the same by just holding back, which would have given the crossbowmen another turn of shooting. On the left flank, finding themselves having nothing better to do and in the process of getting shot up by his grey watchers, the reiters charged them. The charge went badly due to a combination of stand and shoot and Fae Miasma (an effect anyone getting shot by them suffers from, -1 to hit), they broke and ran off the table. In retrospect, I should probably have rather tried to use them to chaff the spearelves for a turn to allow my leftmost imperial guard to do the planned envelopment maneuver of the lion guard, but doing that would have required succeeding at a march test rolling 6 or less on 2d6. In the centre, the rightmost imperial guard and the (also rather depleted) handgunners broke their spearelf enemy and ran them down.

His fourth turn, his left flank spearelves charged my crossbowmen. I hadn't been able to get them and their parent imperial guard placed so that he could only have charged the imperial guard while simultaneously have the crossbowmen set up for a flank charge. Instead, I gambled on enough of the crossbowmen surviving the charge to inherit steadfast from the parent unit. That they did, and now those spearelves were in combat, flank open for the imperial guard. In the centre, his lion guard shredded the handgunners that were chaffing them and post-combat pivoted towards the right, to get into action with my central imperial guard, with both my characters.

The rest of the game was just resolving the two combats that either had happened or were about to. On the left flank, the imperial guard charged the spearelves in the flank, but substandard rolling from them led to the spearelves surviving long enough to finish the crossbowmen and combat reform to face the imperial guard. Then, the one turn he managed to cast Favour of Meladys (utterly broken HbE hereditary spell) let him negate casualties inflicted by me and not get ground down. That combat was still ongoing at the end of the game, neither the spearelves nor the imperial guard sufficiently reduced to give up victory points. To the lion guard I fed one more model of chaff, the sole survivor of the other handgunner unit, in order to set up things so I'd get both my other two imperial guard units into combat with the lion guard simultaneously, the general's unit in the front and the other in the rear. Magical buffs and fae miasma did its work though, so he killed more than he died. At the end, his lion guard had been reduced to a quarter, yielding half points. My general's imperial guard had been wiped out, and I had to pass a break test on a rerollable 7 not to have my general and BSB end the game fleeing.

We had both killed about half the points worth of each others' armies, so the score by kills was 10-10. I scored the objective for a final result of 13-7. We had both given as well as we got, but I had done it in the part of the battlefield where it counted for the objective. Something I'd been able to do by using my movement disruptors to delay him elsewhere on the field, and focus gunnery on the enemy unit I needed to defeat to win the objective.
The only good thing about 7th ed heads is that they look particularly inbred and superstitious which is perfect for Stirlanders

Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Konrad's attempts at playing gunline-TVI [T9A]
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2018, 02:03:52 PM »
GAME 5. HIGHBORN ELVES #2, CONCLUSIONS

So, a 13-7 due to winning the secondary objective. I think this game showcased the ability to use movement disruptors and careful choice of where to focus fire to control what reaches my line, when, and in what state. I'm rather new to the game of movement disruption, somehow that wasn't as big a thing when I played ages ago. Or maybe we were just clueless back then. Apart from the mistakes in that regard I already mentioned, I probably shouldn't have deployed two ranger units on the right flank. Their performance was lacklustre and nothing particularly decisive happened there anyway. If I hadn't committed these mistakes and instead played a tighter movement disruption game in the centre and on the left, I think I could have ended the game with more points killed than lost.

This was also the first time I tried this army composition concept with three small-medium parent units of Imperial Guard, rather than core heavy infantry. Part of the reason for it was to be more versatile with character placement, allowing the two to switch to another of the units if needed. I didn't end up using that though. I also realized there's something of a de-synergy in having fairly shallow units and marshals that can give many orders, since I'm less likely to be able to make use of Fight in Extra Rank. If I need to deal with an enemy deathstar or mini-deathstar, I just need one of them to be anviltastic to receive it, flanking halberdiers would have worked almost as well in the final fight in the game, and let the general's command bunker Imperial Guard be deeper and more resilient. In this army, if all else fails, I should have cheap crap to chaff deathstars with while either avoiding it or setting up an envelopment of it. A final reason for the shallow Imperial Guard units was that it allowed me to have a tighter battleline with narrower gaps between the units, without them getting in the way of each other wheeling. I found out though that optimizing density like that was redundant, I didn't have any issue with finding space for my line (might have something to do with 3 of the 4 previous games being refused flank deployment, which narrows things awkwardly, which wasn't the case here). I might as well have something like decent 2'' gaps between units and go 5 ranks deep. Back to the previous idea, i.e. a single Imperial Guard command bunker unit with the Household Standard, and two halberdier parent units.
The only good thing about 7th ed heads is that they look particularly inbred and superstitious which is perfect for Stirlanders

Offline Artobans Ghost

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Re: Konrad's attempts at playing gunline-TVI [T9A]
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2018, 02:56:00 PM »
Nice BR. It seems you are really able to get into the detail of tactics with 9th age. The movement restrictions for the elves must paralyze them somewhat putting them on the back foot.
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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Konrad's attempts at playing gunline-TVI [T9A]
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2018, 11:04:20 PM »
Next game is planned to be against another Empire player. A scion of the 8th edition, with all that it implies and all that I dislike about what that edition made the Empire into: Infantry hordes and buff wagons.

As an old 6th edition grognard, honour demands that I walk in his blood.
The only good thing about 7th ed heads is that they look particularly inbred and superstitious which is perfect for Stirlanders

Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Konrad's attempts at playing gunline-TVI [T9A]
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2018, 10:37:30 PM »
Another insight that I forgot to mention. Those handgunner and crossbowman support units can, if the situation warrants it, make aggressive maneuvers, and I'd guess, even take unexpecting enemies unawares.

In Game 4, two of four such units did find themselves at the enemy table edge by turn 4. In Game 5, that one crossbowman unit at the right flank spent the first turn getting an order and marching 12''. The way that flank developed didn't make further advancing relevant, and anyway, they fled in panic in a bit. But it's not hard to see how things could have gone if the chips had fallen a bit differently. If my electoral cavalry would have swept away the grey watchers, the crossbowmen could have used an order again on the second turn to have moved another 12'', and ended up in the flank zone of his queensguard. A flank charge on the third turn would have put me a likely 5 points ahead in static combat score. He would effectively have been forced to counter it by turning to face and hoping to repel me with archery, whereby the queensguard would have been out of that hard cover they started the game in. Queensguard, which hits both hard and accurately but melts in the face of return fire.
The only good thing about 7th ed heads is that they look particularly inbred and superstitious which is perfect for Stirlanders

Offline Warlord

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Re: Konrad's attempts at playing gunline-TVI [T9A]
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2018, 02:51:03 AM »
Is it purely because they dont expect empire missile troops to get into combat? Points wise, surely there are more effective choices, because you are paying a lot of points for missile weapons they cannot use with a single S3 attack with no AS.
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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Konrad's attempts at playing gunline-TVI [T9A]
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2018, 12:17:21 PM »
Well, most of the time, they would indeed be shooting at the enemy. Making aggressive maneuvers like that is a secondary use, one they would do if an opportunity presents itself. Having plentiful gunnery and thus forcing the enemy to come to you, while also having plentiful movement disruption to disorganize his attack, is a combination that breeds such opportunities.

It seems like such a playstyle is, in contemporary terms, referred to as shooty counterpunch. That's what I've essentially been doing all the time, maybe I should start using that term. Doesn't quite have the same connotations as a gunline.

When circumstances became such that the sweeping flanking maneuver became unfeasible due to the flank threat from the grey watchers, that crossbowman unit halted and started shooting instead. Managed to bag an elven bolt thrower with one volley, despite only rolling slightly above average.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 12:44:28 PM by Konrad von Richtmark »
The only good thing about 7th ed heads is that they look particularly inbred and superstitious which is perfect for Stirlanders

Offline Warlord

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Re: Konrad's attempts at playing gunline-TVI [T9A]
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2018, 07:36:23 AM »
I know in 7th when I was playing with Hybrid lists, units of 15 spearmen were really handy for what you describe, without the shooting part of course. But I also really liked using Outriders and Pistoliers for the shooty counterpunch you describe.

I also often used the Richtmark battalion strategy with my tank(s) for a variety of successful play. I found the most useful part of the strategy was having a missile magnet - what do you use in this list? Looks like the Electoral Cavalry?
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.