Topic: Combat Reform Rules Debate

[Siberius]

Ok, so yesterday this happened:

A unit was in combat with another unit, head on, with a third unit about to charge it in the flank:


>> <<<<<<
>> <<<<<<
>> <<<<<<
  > <<<<<<
  > <<<<<<

     
      ^^^^^
      ^^^^^


Now as you can see, the large unit is about to get charged in the flank by a unit that can disrupt it's ranks. The question is, can it combat reform to face the new unit before it charges?

We ended up kinda coming up with two answers. Theoretically, if it has no command or characters, then yes, as no models are moving out of combat, just turning on the spot (which you are allowed to do in order to reform to face a unit that has flank charged it that turn, for example).

But it seemed like you would be unable to if you have command as they would physically have to move out of base to base with the original unit, hence breaking that rule.


Though now I think about it, even changing formation to face a unit that has flank charged you means that some rank and file guys will move out of base to base contact in order for your command to move in... which makes me wonder once more if the whole thing would actually be potentially legal.

Is it perhaps that the number of models in contact must remain the same, rather than the exact ones...


Anyways, this spawned much back and forth debate and no real iron clad consensus in the end.

Thoughts or helpful rules we might have missed?

[Gorgash Redfang]

NO...........Too busy fighting whats already in combat FULL STOP

[Siberius]

To play devils advocate though, one could argue that having beaten the foe that small, their main attention would be drawn to the incoming charge from a larger, a bit like the uruk hai turning to face Gandalf at Helms Deep.   

[commandant]

For that to work you need to have beaten the foe.   If you beat them and they are fleeing you can combat reform instead of chasing them.

Also the Helm's Deep thing had a massive wall keeping the foe the uruk hai were fighting bottled in when they turned to face gandalf

[Noght]

Book out in the car.

I believe you can.  However models can't be taken out of combat.  So if you have 5 models fighting then if you reform then you have to leave 5 models in base.

I'll look tomorrow, I thought there was an FAQ on that though, hmmm....

Noght

[Drmooreflava]

I have seen in numerous youtube battle reps. people reforming to face an oncoming charge while already being in combat. The real thing that you cannot do is, reform once you have been engaged on the front and flank.
Technichally, in this situation you can't move your characters out of combat with the original unit unless your character is in a challenge. However, your command models count as regular models because you cannot assign attacks to them and they count as a part your unit's rank and file models, although I have had some people say that you can assign attacks to an enemy champion. Your unit can reform with your command regularly (not as sure about the champion, but anyone who whines about a champ's extra attack has a stick up his you-know-where).

Either way I see it is that you can reform regardless of your command, they don't have to be in the front rank if your opponent says you can't move them to move out of base contact. You can turn to face an enemy that is on your flank, you can even turn to face an enemy that will soon charge your flank. If you win combat you gain a free reform even if your enemy doesn't flee. If you lose combat you may take a leadership test to reform, regardless.

There is no reason the "to be flanked unit" cannot reform if it has passed a leadership test (if it has lost combat) and is not engaged on more than 1 of it's 4 sides.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I've just seen this happen often. There could be a diff. in turning to face a flanker than turning to face a "to be flanker", again, I've seen both on youtube. I think what it boils down to is your gaming group and how you and your FRIENDS interpret the rulebook.

[Drmooreflava]

+1 Noght

[sebster]

However, your command models count as regular models because you cannot assign attacks to them and they count as a part your unit's rank and file models, although I have had some people say that you can assign attacks to an enemy champion.

There's no doubt about that particular point - champions can be assigned attacks like any other characters - it's right there in the rules for champions.

And that does mean you can't reform to take your champion out of base to base.  However, if he's the only character you could put him on the corner of the unit, so he's still in contact with the enemy.  As long as the rest of the unit has as many models in base to base as it had before the reform you're good.

If you have other characters in the unit then this reform becomes impossible.

There is no reason the "to be flanked unit" cannot reform if it has passed a leadership test (if it has lost combat) and is not engaged on more than 1 of it's 4 sides.

The reason is ensuring every character (including champions) who was in base to base with the enemy is still in base to base after the reform, and in addition to that at least as many rank and file troops are in base to base with the enemy as there were before the reform.  Which is generally fiddly, and in some circumstances can be impossible.

Consider, for instance, if in the above example instead of being 5 ranks deep the unit was only 2 ranks deep.  The unit would be unable to reform to face the new enemy unless it was willing to go less than five wide at its front (somewhat defeating the purpose).  Or consider if a unit contained both a unit champion and an independant character, both engaged in base to base with the enemy.  When they reformed both these characters would have to be deployed on the front rank, but only one character could be placed in the corner of the unit, still in contact with the enemy.

[Drmooreflava]

Where does the BRB say that a "combat reform" constitutes the (obligatory) movement of the champion, a standard bearer, musician and or characters to the front rank?

What I've seen many times; characters don't have to be in the front rank, meaning you can still reform while the character remains in combat with the original enemy unit while the same amount of your models are still touching the enemy unit.

Command models may reform as normal because they are a part of the unit, after the command model is replaced, it is replaced by a model of the same unit and no models (friendly or enemy) have been moved out of base contact, you could make an arguement for the champion, but since he is a part of the unit and not a character, I think he may reform as normal as well as the standard/mus.

Yes, at times it may be more benefiticial to a unit to deny the flanking bonus to the unit it will be charged by than facing front to the unit it is already engaged with If the enemy unit it is already engaged with will be destroyed before combat resolution is determined. So say you go 2 wide and 5 deep to make sure you don't get flanked, as long as you kill the enemy unit you reformed away from, they won't get a flank bonus and you get the chance to reform once again, after combat resolution of course.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

As Noght says, there is an erratum (BRB Official Update Version 1.5. p 2). Updated the pragraph now reads:

A combat reform is essentially a standard reform (page 14), save for the fact that the centre point of the reformed unit does not have to stay in the same place. The most common usage of a combat reform is to allow the unit to turn to face its enemy (if attacked in the flank or rear), although it can also be used to bring more models into the fight by increasing the unit's frontage. There are two special restrictions on a combat reform, however — it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made, and the unit may not reform in such a way as to contact a different facing on any enemy unit it is in contact with. The model can be in base contact with a different enemy at the end of the reform if you wish.

I have put the relevant change in bold.

[Gorgash Redfang]

what i said .....


+1    Fidelis von Sigmaringen

[Lord Solar Plexus]

The rule Fidelis has quoted indeed raises some interesting questions. It sounds as if it applies to specific models, as in exactly those models in B2B. There is no mentioning of replacing anyone and it doesn't talk about the amount of models either. In this case, how do you turn to face an enemy? Let's assume both are square, eg. 5 wide, 5 deep. The 5 guys in the flank must end up in B2B, or you would have taken it out of it...so if there's a single command model in the new front rank, you would have to go at least 6 wide. If your unit was 7 deep and had one command model, it would have to go 8 wide, and so on, and if it was 5 deep + FC, it could only reform to 8 wide with one FC not in B2B.

Fidelis, I don't see the relevance of the bolded part. Nobody argued that the reforming unit would or could teleport into it's opponent's flank or rear. Whether the command models and any characters are in the front rank or to the side doesn't change the position of the whole unit in the very same facing.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

@ LSP: I read the paragraph differently, but reading it again, I would say you are correct.
However, to answer Drmooreflava' question: it is stipulated on BRB p. 92 (I think no one will disagree that the bolded part is relevant, this time  ):

POSITION WITHIN THE UNIT
Command groups must be placed in the unit's front rank and move automatically if the unit reforms. Champions, standard bearers and musicians can always be found in the forefront of the fighting, as is entirely fitting as they lead their comrades through personal example.
Any models that make up a unit's command group must be placed in the front rank of the unit, unless there is not enough room for them to fit. Where this happens, as many command group models as possible must be placed in the front rank and any remaining models are placed in the rank behind.
If the unit changes formation then the command group automatically pushes its way back to the front. Accordingly, when a unit reforms, the models of the unit's command group must be repositioned into the unit's new front rank as described above (regardless of the distance).

[Noght]

I knew there was an FAQ that settled it.  I just didn't remember what the answer was  .

Thanks for grabbing it.

Noght

[zifnab0]

and the unit may not reform in such a way as to contact a different facing on any enemy unit it is in contact with.

Restating, "the friendly unit may not reform to contact a different facing on an enemy unit."  That doesn't mean the friendly unit cannot reform so that the enemy unit contacts a different facing on the friendly unit.

The command group must move to the front, but must remain in contact with the enemy.  This can be solved by moving the champion to the corner.

If you have other characters in the unit then this reform becomes impossible.

There is no requirement that characters move to the front rank in a reform, and characters are allowed to "make way" to fight in the flank regardless.

I don't see anything illegal about the proposed reform.  A bit shady, but consistent with the rules.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

If a unit reforms, the Command group must be placed in the unit's front rank and moves automatically. But in a combat reform, every model in base to base contact with the enemy must remain in base to base contact with that enemy. Having the champion in the corner is not sufficient to satisfy both requirements.
The same is true for characters: they must go in front, if a place is available, but in a combat reform, they must remain in base to base contact with the enemy. 

[Noght]

The command group must move to the front, but must remain in contact with the enemy.  This can be solved by moving the champion to the corner.

 

I was under the impression that if a model was in B2B contact with an enemy model it couldn't be moved (slid perhaps after a reform), i.e. not taking a model out of combat.   Wouldn't moving the Champion from the middle spot to the corner in a facing reform in fact violate that rule?

The same is true for characters: they must go in front, if a place is available, but in a combat reform, they must remain in base to base contact with the enemy. 

Once a character is engaged he can be anywhere in the formation due to "make way" and you can't reform a character out of combat.

Noght

[Lord Solar Plexus]

The command group must move to the front, but must remain in contact with the enemy.  This can be solved by moving the champion to the corner.

But then you have moved everyone else who was in B2B out of it. Where does the rule say "You can move any model in B2B out of it"?

Tbh, I've never even thought about this in this way. I would just more or less pivot on the spot but it seems that the limitations on a combat reform are stricter than it first appeared. It's still a bit odd, especially the distinction between turning and bringing more models into the fight - the former always includes the latter.

There is no requirement that characters move to the front rank in a reform, and characters are allowed to "make way" to fight in the flank regardless.

There is a general requirement that characters must always be and, if they are not yet, move to the front. There is one exception - show me one in the combat reform section. If you cannot do that, the general requirement stands.

You cannot make way when you are already in combat, and you cannot voluntarily leave combat in order to make way back to your old position.

[zifnab0]

If a unit reforms, the Command group must be placed in the unit's front rank and moves automatically. But in a combat reform, every model in base to base contact with the enemy must remain in base to base contact with that enemy. Having the champion in the corner is not sufficient to satisfy both requirements.

Why not?  The standard bearer and musician are interchangable with any other models in the unit.  They can't be singled out (AFAIK), so exchanging them with another model doesn't change anything.  If they can be singled out then I agree the reform cannot occur.  It's never come up, so I'm not sure on the specific rule.

The champion can be singled out, so he has to remain in contact with the enemy.  Placing him on a corner satisfies this.

The same is true for characters: they must go in front, if a place is available, but in a combat reform, they must remain in base to base contact with the enemy.

According to the quote you posted above only command models are forced to the front during a reform.  Not characters.

Wouldn't moving the Champion from the middle spot to the corner in a facing reform in fact violate that rule?

Not as long as the champion remains in BTB contact with at least one enemy model.

There is a general requirement that characters must always be and, if they are not yet, move to the front. There is one exception - show me one in the combat reform section. If you cannot do that, the general requirement stands.

The exception is "make way."  Characters can be placed on flanks or otherwise away from the front rank to contact the enemy.

[Noght]

Wouldn't moving the Champion from the middle spot to the corner in a facing reform in fact violate that rule?

Not as long as the champion remains in BTB contact with at least one enemy model.

So the only way to satisfy the rules is for the Champ to start and stay on the corner.  Moving from the middle is a no-no.  Because if he's in the middle and maximized like the first pic he's in B2B with 3 models, no way he can move.

Noght

[zifnab0]

So the only way to satisfy the rules is for the Champ to start and stay on the corner.  Moving from the middle is a no-no.  Because if he's in the middle and maximized like the first pic he's in B2B with 3 models, no way he can move.

IIRC the rule says any model in contact with "the enemy" cannot move out of contact with "the enemy."  There's no requirement for them to keep the same number of models in BTB.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Why not?  The standard bearer and musician are interchangable with any other models in the unit.

Standard RnF is interchangeable as well. What does that matter? That's never mentioned in the combat reform rules. The limitation is that a model starting in B2B must end up in B2B. Not any other model, the one that was in B2B at the start.

The exception is "make way."  Characters can be placed on flanks or otherwise away from the front rank to contact the enemy.

Not true in this context. You cannot make way when you are already in combat. The character is in the front, in combat. "Make way" is therefore not applicable. You need an exception for him to leave the combat and move to another flank or rank with a combat reform. Please note that you are trying to move this engaged character somewhere else, somewhere out of combat prior to making way - you cannot do that with recourse to or because of Make Way, so how's he leaving combat first?

And even without a character: How are your other models leaving combat? I still see no replacement rule. There is only one for casualties but these models aren't casualties.

It's rather convoluted I admit.

So the only way to satisfy the rules is for the Champ to start and stay on the corner.  Moving from the middle is a no-no.  Because if he's in the middle and maximized like the first pic he's in B2B with 3 models, no way he can move.

How do you come to this conclusion, Noght? It doesn't matter how many models your champ touches pre- and post reform. Where did you see this limitation mentioned? In B2B pre- ---> In B2B post-reform. Touching one model satisfies that.

[Noght]

So the only way to satisfy the rules is for the Champ to start and stay on the corner.  Moving from the middle is a no-no.  Because if he's in the middle and maximized like the first pic he's in B2B with 3 models, no way he can move.

How do you come to this conclusion, Noght? It doesn't matter how many models your champ touches pre- and post reform. Where did you see this limitation mentioned? In B2B pre- ---> In B2B post-reform. Touching one model satisfies that.

Forget about the Champion.  Try to move an unarmored unprotected Wizard in B2B with 3 models + 3 supporting attacks and see what happens.  I was under the impression if you are in B2B with 3 models you have to stay in B2B with 3 models....

[zifnab0]

Not true in this context. You cannot make way when you are already in combat. The character is in the front, in combat. "Make way" is therefore not applicable. You need an exception for him to leave the combat and move to another flank or rank with a combat reform.

First you need to show that he needs to be in the front rank during a combat reform.  Fidelis quoted the appropriate section for command groups having this restriction, but do characters?

Standard RnF is interchangeable as well. What does that matter? That's never mentioned in the combat reform rules. The limitation is that a model starting in B2B must end up in B2B. Not any other model, the one that was in B2B at the start.

Suppose instead a unit has been charged in the flank and you want to reform to face the opponent.  Can the standard bearer and musician be placed in the (new) front rank, moving models starting in B2B out of B2B?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

If a unit reforms, the Command group must be placed in the unit's front rank and moves automatically. But in a combat reform, every model in base to base contact with the enemy must remain in base to base contact with that enemy. Having the champion in the corner is not sufficient to satisfy both requirements.

Why not?  The standard bearer and musician are interchangable with any other models in the unit.  They can't be singled out (AFAIK), so exchanging them with another model doesn't change anything.  If they can be singled out then I agree the reform cannot occur.  It's never come up, so I'm not sure on the specific rule.

The champion can be singled out, so he has to remain in contact with the enemy.  Placing him on a corner satisfies this.

The same is true for characters: they must go in front, if a place is available, but in a combat reform, they must remain in base to base contact with the enemy.

According to the quote you posted above only command models are forced to the front during a reform.  Not characters.

The fact that in general a musician and standard bearer, when slain, are assumed to be replaced by another warrior, does in no way allow you to replace them when they are NOT slain.

As to characters: BRB Update 1.5, p. 8:

Q: Must a character be moved to the front rank of a unit as soon as a space becomes available? (p100)
A: Yes.