Warhammer-Empire.com
The Campaign Archive => Nemesis Crown Board => Topic started by: Giladis on June 04, 2007, 06:49:23 AM
-
Salutations Keigh-mon of the Empire!
Many of your "ambasadors" have visited the Twin Thrones and presented your wish of an alliance and I am compeled to respond in order for your people to understand.
Twice in your past we have aided you in stoping the denezies of the northern expanses and you were our allies in those endevours. But the times are changing. Due to the nature of the object you seek to posess you are becoming a threat to the balance in the world and o the forces of light.
Many of you might ask why have we chosen to support Dwarfs, a race we fought one of the most bitterest wars against, over you. The answer is both simple and complex. Long ago Dwarfs and Elves marched togather against the evils of the world and there was no power mortal or immortal that could match our sinergy. Through unfortunate events that we are as much to blame as the dwarfs we fought and brought ruin to our realms. Now after so many years we have come togather once more and through our united strength we are seeking to restore our lost domains.
Though many among your number are noble and wise, your lives are to fleeting and your nation is to unstable for us to allie with you in a way Dwarfs did in the past. While Dwarf might look by when you slaughter among yourself and Elf can't. We would try to interfere to to bring balance and that would cause even more suffering.
Do not be alarmed with lack of support from our race in this quest of yours. We shall not seek to engage you for we will have more important enemies such as children of the dark gods and the un-natural creatures of undeath to fight. But should you attack us or should the Crown end in your posession and you fail to presentit to either us, Lizardmen or the Dwarfs you will feel the might of Ulthuan upon your land.
A council of greatest Archmages, Rnelords and the Slann has been gathered with a single goal, the undoing of the Crown. None may poesses it not even you.
Stay well and guard against the temptations that the Crown brings and you will have the elven nation as the protector of your people you are unable to guard.
Yours proudly
Admiral Giladis
OOC: This is a clarification of the Elven stance towards the Men of the Empire. We will not sign a NAP because the chance of a conflict between our races in this quest is strong and we do not wish to sunder another agreemen. Once in our past we did that and it brought much suffery. Do don't touch us and allow us to do our buissnes and we will not touch you unless you get the crown and fail to diliver it to either member of the alliance (HE-DW-LM).
-
For I am only a simpte Inquistor of the Curch of Sigmar my opinion in diplomatic ways is not the opinion of the army of General Helstrom. But I have to speak to your proposal Elf.
You say that Humans are weak and easy lured into the rotten path of Chaos. But your whole Race is split in half by the taint of Chaos. Why should we give you the crown for you have also proven that your Race could be tainted by Power. Your arrogance has brought the war of the beard over both your races Dwarf and Elf you both have proven that you are not more or less effected by the chaos....therefore it is my opinion that if either man or elf or dwarf will find the crown that all races of light should attend a counsel what to do. Your time to be the sole guardians of the light are long over....you can't even defend your own island and speak threats to us like a child. Until we fail and misuse the power of the crown you have no right to judge us because your race isn't with faults itself. In any case will the crown be on imperial ground and therefore you would steal it from the Empire if you would just take it without any consens of our ruling Emperor. What would you say if we would start walking over ulthuan taking your magic treasures without asking your permission? What would you say if we landed with armies telling you to hand us over something we want? At the moment you acting like you are already corrupted by the Nemesis Crown disrespecting our honor and our borders.
Therefore good captain I would say you are welcome as guests in our land but not as someone demanding anything from us.
-
Again, like Fandir, I am not speaking from any official stance from W-E and merely giving my opinion. If I can say I hope you are a false ambassador (as others have impersonated men of the Empire on other forums) as I find your arguments both flawed and incredulous. You speak with a level of arrogance well over and above that of the Wood elves! I am amazed you even dare speak of unity and fear no threat of invasion as your race would not support a full scale invasion based on questionable rhetoric only to see your fragile lands fall to your corrupted brethren.
I still await an official response from your race and would gladly speak to such a representative, but I will not listen to hollow threats and ignorance!
-
Hello Veldmere
I am one of the Asur.org HQ you can freely discuss it. I just brought you an IC respons and than posted below OOC that we will not fight you unless you attack us or you end up with the crown and fail to present it to council of elders for disposal.
Cheers
-
(IC and personal opinion - I do not speak for the Round Table or any of its members. Also, 'us' refers not to the Empire but to the human race as a whole.)
This is the ancient and revered wisdom of the High Elves? This?
I am filled with incredulity, ambassador Giladis. Was it that long ago that your soldiers bled and died alongside men to save the world from Chaos? Has it been so long that you would forget the sacrifices made by the race of man to stem the tide, for the salvation of all, including your fair isle?
I fear the only explanation for this message is that a foul daemon has possessed our friend elf, and speaks to drive a wedge between us of fear, hatred, pride, and arrogance. The great Teclis, honoured among the High Elves, realised that men were what would become the bulwark against Chaos, and that the fate of the world would eventually rest in our hands. He trusted us enough to teach the corrupting ways of magic, knowing that we would resist as you have.
Was his trust misplaced? Was Teclis wrong to treat men as equals worthy of standing alongside the glittering armies of the High Elves in battle? I say he was not! I say he was right to do so, for he saw in man the potential to become greater than any that have passed before!
We are not children, ambassador Giladis, nor are we fools. The Empire is a nation of dignity and honour, and I for one shall stand alongside it. Do not patronise us - we know better.
And, in the end, you're not so spotless yourself. :-P
-
'As you said: "we are seeking to restore our lost domains"
I believe most of this land is now in the Empire, or even Bretonnia. My friends, I think this an accidental revelation of the true reason the Dwarfs and Elves seek the Crown. Is this a declaration of war?
I would like to ask one thing: Why do you think we would want to possess such a thing? We are planning to study it merely. After such a period of study if it is evil or unusable then it shall be destroyed as you claim to want.'
-
*sigh*
They speak words of peace yet will not dicuss any agreement that may limit the potential bloodshed betwen our races. While the Empire may willingly bend to the requests of the elder races, we will not break.
Konrad Holst
Perhaps (fluff wise) a non-aggression pact can be enacted relating solely to the all Empire lands excluding the region known as the Great Forest (I have one prepared if necessary). Surely this would be acceptable, and will foster good relations in the future.
Apart from that and despite my previous postings, from a WFB perspective it is good to see all the 'elder races' pulling together for the sake of the campaign. Good on them.
-
BUT we should all remember THAT its not we who decide who to fight The Emperor DOSE and if you your not with us you must be our enemy IF you get in the way of the Emperor Karl Franz of course..
-
Giladis, I take your point and also wish to point out that if you wish to open negotiations one should never use threats, that will never elicit a positive response as you can see.
I hope that not all the others on Asur.org feel the way you do as our plans when we fing the crown is to form a council to decide what must be done with the crown, through discussion not invasion. I think we all felt your venerable race would be involved in this but if we are only to be met by petulance it may be felt you have nothing to offer as both the other races you mentioned are able to offer practical solutions on how to destroy the object if that is what is decided upon, your presence would be preferable but not essential.
As previously stated these are just my opinions and I do not wish to undo any of the good work done by our envoys to your race.
-
I believe it is on me to apologise for the not very pleasent introductionary post.
I am one of the Asur.org HQ for the NC and was mistaken that CaptScott have infomed you on the discussion that was held on Asur.org. For that I apologise.
On the matter of the IC post I have tried to reflect the nature of the High Elves, it was only you who have been lucky to talk only to Teclis who is very humble for an elf and thinks highly of you. Much of my response was based on what was allready said on Asur.org and I just jumped to conclusion here and for that I also apologise.
Now I believed that only the OOC notification was the real thing with IC to embelish the post.
As it currently stands High Elfs have no wish to fight you but we can't risk the crown ending in your hands. For that reason we are not inclined for signig a NAP pact because there is a chance we might engage each other and than we would once more be called oathbreakers and that is something we do not want.
Any chance I we have a fresh start :icon_neutral:
Before we continue I would like to clarfy something to escape future misunderstandings. When writting IC I portray an average elven noble, not Teclis or Finubar who are practicaly only elves thinking humans have any potential beyond being meatshields. An elf deems himself superior to all races, though they do not express it before the Dwarfs to evade another conflict, and in such am anner adress them.
Yours sincerely
Marko Lukić aka Giladis
-
If we did gain the Crown, as we have said elsewhere, we will hold a Council of the Wise:
The Empire;
Bretonnians (probably);
High Elves;
Possibly Wood Elves;
Lizardmen;
Dwarfs (as long as they promise not to invite Vampires).
You will be represented, and I say little point for bloodshed between our races.
-
Council of the Wise. Hmm
Now think carefully before you answer.
No matter what you might wish to do with the crown the stances of the High Elves, Lizardmen and Dwarfs is set. The only solution is its destruction.
Bretonnians; I am unsure of their call but considering it is a malign artefact made out of pure Wyrdstone they will vote for destruction.
Wood Elves are elves after all an feel that thing is no good so they would say "Destroy it!" as well.
Than we have you whose decision will be made after you study it. The problem is that neither Dwarfs, High Elves or Lizardmen are willing to allow you to study the crown as that would be risking the coruption of those doing the studying.
No if you decide emediately that your choice is the destruction of the crown (I repeate it is made out of pure Wyrdstone) than you have nothing to fear from either High Elves or Lizardmen. The Dwarfs are another problem because they wouldn't even want you touching the cursed thing but through skillful diplomacy maybe even that can be overcome.
-
Isn't it so that the crown is evil is at the moment pure hearsaying? The Dwarfs won't even tell us what the Intention of the Crown is still they buried it under our lands without warning us of the threat it is. What do the High Elves know about it...or what do they believe to know might be something different that the truth is. A council doesn't make any sense if you won't listen to the other participants and are already set in you decision. If the crown can be destroyed...why didn't the dwarfs destroy it in the first place? If it can be destroyed who tells us that there will come no harm out of the destruction? There are many and more questions on the Nemesis Crown...none of them answered by any of the Elder races....because is your arrogant and harsh view on the matter the problem you need the humans to solve it for.
Anyhow I never want to shed any blood of an elf or a dwarf because we owe both races a lot. Without the help of the elder races man would have perished long ago. But I won't start to crawl in front of the elder races only because I am grateful.
-
I am General Simon Donnerhertz Rodimutz. I have been a proponent stronger Elvish ties for quite some. With The High Elves humanity would already be dead or puppets of Chaos. The entire world also would be.
OOC: I am generally pissed off by Dwarf and High Elf choices in this campaign. I hear that the Asur.Org was told be GW they could not ally with the Empire. What the hell is that? If true, like good little lapdogs you followed.
Your contingent of Dwarfs and High Elves is going to regret your stance. If you follow Star Trek, this next set of sentences should hit home. I am not some Captain Picard, a good little diplomat who sees the value of pacification and treaties. I'm a Captain Kirk. If you do wrong, I'm going to go over there and shove a Starship into a very small hole. I will accept your NAP in fluff. I and the men here will gladly write no fluff pertaining to any actions against the Good races, High Elves included.
But when the battle time comes and the campaign commences, I am going to lay waste to whatever Dwarf and High Elf force I can. With extreme prejudice. The Dwarf and High Elf races of fluff, in my humble opinion, would NOT EVER act like this. They would not throw aside the Empire as your online communities have. The Orc And Goblin online community showed us all that you can work against silly GW campaign-forced "fluff" during the SoC. They wrote what Grimgor should be doing rather than Gav's poor writing - and it was adopted. The Bretonnians are doing the same in this campaign, they have graciously worked around the Nemesis fluff regarding seizing Imperial lands and have now allied with us.
Lizardmen are also aiding us to a degree, it should also be mentioned. But you and the Dwarfs have taken away our dignity and made enemies of us. This will not be reflected in fluff. But it will be shown in battle reports and I encourage all Empire Generals to do so. Also, our online community shall not let these actions be forgotten easily.
-
Ahhh the Elder races, maybe that term should be considered in terms of age and not wisdom. As Fandir said we are here due to the actions of the Dwarves (or a specific ambitious Dwarf) they have delivered us lies and duplicity even within our short lives and it seems that since the discovery of this bauble the Elves have been just as quick with the lies and duplicity (led entirely by their respective representatives on this forum and others), allying with races prepared to offer alligances to the greenskins and vampires!
I would certainly have supported allying with the Asur but even if in character you probably should have chosen a better representative who, like Teclis, knows how to speak to other races. We have tried to use honour and diplomacy on all forums despite some of the despicable way some of our ambasadors have been treated!
I suggest you send a different ambassador, one who has lived the long life of an elf and actually learned something in that time. There is a difference between haughty and rude, and confident and threatening.
-
Welcome Giladis. It is unfortunate that you had to come to these hallowed halls in such a dark time, and that your initial contact was somewhat...unpleasant.
The men here have pride as well. We will do what we can to curb the sheding of blood between old friends. But we cannot, and will not, step aside while our homes are in danger. I understand that you elder races act in a manner in which you see fit, however you cannot speak sweet words in our ears while carying weapons of war. We cannot allow armed combatants through our lands that have stated they are not supporting us in this campaign. It is unfortunate that it has come to this, but so be it. I have tried and tried to speak nobly and truthfully, and I feel as though I have succeeded in that. However, my heart breaks knowing the stubborn foolishness of the elder races. We are called weak and rash, yet none of our supposed friends will listen to us during this time. We will have to show you all that our race is strong, yet again.
No offense taken Giladis. Sometimes inter forum communication can break down, it's one of those things. It is discouraging that the course of events has taken us this way, but unfortunately it's what GW has set up. I will continue to communicate with your forum whenver possible.
-
Before we continue I would like to clarfy something to escape future misunderstandings. When writting IC I portray an average elven noble, not Teclis or Finubar who are practicaly only elves thinking humans have any potential beyond being meatshields. An elf deems himself superior to all races, though they do not express it before the Dwarfs to evade another conflict, and in such am anner adress them.
That's fair enough; indeed, half the fun is in such role playing, and I can sympathise as my character has tended to be an absolute [expletive]. A cursory glance at how I've been talking with the dwarfs shows that much, though IC my character has more respect for elves, so he phrases 'you insane backstabbing subhumans, get out of my land before you come down with a sudden and deadly case of lance-in-the-gut-itis' rather more politely, especially since there's only an ocean protecting him from them, rather than two mountain ranges and the most powerful nation in the Old World in the case of dwarfs.
So, no offense taken, and please, continue to live up your posts with such IC mannerisms. I/my character is a bit of a human supremacist, and it's nice to see that others can look down on other races as well.
Than we have you whose decision will be made after you study it. The problem is that neither Dwarfs, High Elves or Lizardmen are willing to allow you to study the crown as that would be risking the coruption of those doing the studying.
Isn't the assumption there that each race would cast a block vote? I don't know how the Empire people here intend to run it, but it could well be weighted, e.g. each Empire elector, the Supreme Patriarch of the Colleges of Magic, the cult leaders of various Old World faiths, each Bretonnian Duke, the lords of all major dwarf holds, whatever Slann are able to come, and so forth, all having a vote. Think Council of Constance, not UN. Or, as I say, I could be completely wrong, but the cynic in me doubts that they would get the Crown only to cheerfully let the dwarf alliance outvote them.
Isn't it so that the crown is evil is at the moment pure hearsaying?
I did make an argument that it wasn't evil over on the Round Table... there are a few issues with that argument, though.
1/ How reliable is Alaric the Mad? He thought it was evil - is he in a position to make such a judgement? Do his mental issues and obvious bias make his judgement a poor one?
2/ What is the nature of warpstone? Is it solidified Chaos, or merely solidified Warp-stuff? If the latter, then it need not necessarily be evil.
3/ Can warpstone be used safely? Examples such as the skaven and Nagash are controversial at best. Do Clan Skryre and Nagash's rituals indicate that warpstone can be contained and used, or are they too unreliable, or have their judgement clouded?
4/ Even if warpstone is evil, does that mean it cannot be used? Evil artifacts have been successfully used for a good purpose before. The Sword of Khaine wielded by Aenarion is one example, as is Grand Theogonist Kurt III's use of the Liber Mortis. Does this set a valid precedent?
I came out arguing that, if studied, examined, and contained, there is no intrinsic reason why the Crown could not be used for good, despite the obvious risk. To be honest, though, that was probably just taking up the devil's advocate position for the hell of it. Can the Crown be used safely? You can certainly argue that, and it's not immediately nonsensical.
If the crown can be destroyed...why didn't the dwarfs destroy it in the first place?
Evidently Alaric either thought that he couldn't destroy it, or he wouldn't destroy his own masterwork out of a twisted sense of desire. Be that as it may, the dwarfs as a whole never got it... and as I understand it, all they want is to lock it up and hoard it away, not destroy it.
-
It is discouraging that the course of events has taken us this way, but unfortunately it's what GW has set up. I will continue to communicate with your forum whenever possible.
No offense Wiss, but I think you're wrong here. Like the Orcs in SoC, or the Bretonnians now, the fluff can be bent and remade depending on how we as players want it. Just because GW has set it up doesn't mean that we can't try and alter it to how we perceive the game. Or how it should be in our eyes.
Otherwise what is the point in planning out fluff we're going to use. Just because GW did something stupid with your fluff, change the fluff to something intelligent. Elves may be arrogant, but it seems in this respect, that GW far exceeds them.
I don't care if you don't want bloodshed, you came into the Empire as if to war. You are the aggressor, you and your foolish short allies. They turned against us and the old promises before we did anything against them. I thought Elves would have had some intellect and remained our friends and allies. But obviously, you care more for your "Elder Races" then your friends.
We would not have survived the Incursions of Chaos without the help of the Elves. But would you have survived had we fallen? You can claim nothing from helping us, you did it so you would survive. We have sent emissaries and ambassadors to your lands, and yet they have been dishonoured and insulted. The last time that happened to an ally, you lost a crown, I am sure that that will happen this time also.
-
now that was a nice one...loosing two crowns...he he he also the elves didn't send any help during the great chaos incursion as far as I know Teclis did go because he wanted to ....I thought he acted against orders...also granting the humans the powers of magic. Three elven wizards...despised by many other elves helped us...not the high elves as race.
-
Well, I do agree with you, Ostermarker, and my statement was a generalization for what has happened overall. The forums have made their stands based off of what they feel fits in with the fluff. We can continue to try and talk to our old friends but in the end it gets a bit repetative.
Now is the time to move forward and work within what we have. If we can get a NAP that's awesome and will continue to seek at least that, but I will no longer argue of how we're not a fickle, weak race. I've done so multiple in many forums. :|
-
Ahhhh the old 'fickle and weak' arguement, exactly the coments I faced on all the forums I have approached also!
Still, could be worse, we could be lap dogs to the dwarves. Lets keep trying for the NAP (despite my derogatory remarks about other races!) even if we only get through to a few it will aid us in the long run.
-
Well, I think I have made clear (http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=16560.msg187977#msg187977) what I think of the elves before. Traitors every one of them, and arrogant, hypocritical ones at that. My enemy's ally is my enemy - nothing more than that.
Besides, how conceited are you to believe that you can destroy the crown with ease? To act as if you are better able to deal with it, when you haven't even seen it, let alone studied it, is unforgivable.
OOC: Personally I'm irritating by both the "win at all costs" nature of the Grand Dwarf Alliance but also of the rather unfluffy nature of the High Elven alliance with them. What ever happened to the War of the Beard and long held grudges. Oh well, at least we will know how noble the Elves are if they end up in an alliance with mercenary Ogres and oath-breaking Dwarfs.
-
Ok, just for the record, is W-E.com basically going to ignore our campaign obj? Keep in mind the Emperor wants the crown for study.
I am kind of disturbed by all this garbage about handing it over to the Lizards and then handing it to the Dwarves and such all for the sake of honoring alliances. Meanwhile no one is going to cooperate with us unless we turn it over like good little boys and thats only if we don't ask too many questions.
I'd much rather take on all commers for that thing and if we get it, then we can talk instead of begging for scraps.
-
No, the plan is that it is studied, and then after this we hold a Council of the Wise, at least that's what I think the plan is. We try and see if it is usable for good rather than hastily destroying it with no care for whether it can be used for good.
-
I don't think any of us have forgotten the objectives which is principally to protect the Empire. We are consistant in the setting up of a council to help K-F decide what is done with the crown, if it turns out to be good and useful we keep it, if it turns out to be evil we destroy it, if K-F starts growing horns we get worried.
-
I'd much rather take on all commers for that thing and if we get it, then we can talk instead of begging for scraps.
I think that's what we're doing. There's a lot of negotiations going on, but we'll not give in easily. If that were the case we would be apart of the GDA right now. Initial talks were basically like this....
"Manling, step aside and give us our trinket or die."
"Can't we work together on this? What's the big deal anyway, what's with this crown?"
"None o' your bidness, manling. It's ours, give it back."
"Umm, we never took it. I believe it was left in our lands a long time ago. Can we help out?"
"Aye, get out of the way."
etc.....
They wanted us to follow suit, just like everyone else that's forming up in their alliance. We wouldn't do it, and proposed the Council of the Wise. That means we look for it and find out if it's safe or not with the help of everyone. We've gone at this from a position of strength the whole time.
-
No, the plan is that it is studied, and then after this we hold a Council of the Wise, at least that's what I think the plan is. We try and see if it is usable for good rather than hastily destroying it with no care for whether it can be used for good.
OOC:
Thanks. If anyone doesn't see it, THIS is why the dwarves do not trust you with the crown. "Study"? Great, so your most powerful mages study it. One decides to try it on as a test (and don't think he wouldn't... they play with magic constantly even though every time they touch the winds of chaos they risk a demon pulling them into hell for an eternity of torture). He gets corrupted. He convinces you that the crown is a powerful weapon that will drive chaos from your lands forever, and that the dwarves were hiding it and wanted it destroyed because they have fallen to chaos themselves. You unite against the dwarves, still bitter about their "invasion".
The powerful wizard becomes more powerful and influential. The dwarves have to retreat to their hold and close the *really big* doors.
The wizards then travels to the north, into the Chaos Wastes, and fights the powers of chaos... and eventually unites them for another storm of chaos, which you will fight without dwarven allies.
Their other option is to get the crown, break it, leave, then patch up relations by rebuilding roads, fighting goblins... whatever. You humanswill be really upset right up until you really need the dwarves again... chaos or goblins or tomb kings or maybe even Ogres will invade your lands, and the dwarves will come to your aid. It might take a human generation, but the forces of light will come thru it... and how long is a generation for the short-lived manlings anyway? "It is easier to ask forgiveness than permission".
-
Again, I'm not going to get into a discussion on who's right on this issue, Sterling. But what you said about us needing the Dwarfs, goes for them too. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the only reason any of our races have survived for so long is because when it came down to it, we worked together for the greater good.
-
So, essentially what you are saying is that rather than guiding and helping the humans with it, the High Elves would rather break their alliances and help the Dwarfs wage war against them, despite the fact that the Dwarfs will (we assume) do the right thing anyway? Not only is it dishonest, it also doesn't make sense when you think about it - they're actually minimising the likelihood of a "good" outcome by refusing to give council to the Humans, the ones you claim need it, as well as the Dwarfs, who don't apparently.
Besides, what's to say that the Elves won't do the same thing? Or the Dwarfs? Or even the Lizardmen? Nothing. Besides, as I have mentioned plenty of times before, why isn't the College of Light strong enough to hold it? It's as strong at least as the Dwarfs, who were insane enough to make it in the first place, or the Elves whose malign faction raid the Empire's shores.
The Elves and the Dwarfs are both dieing races - their actions here are the perfect example of why.
-
of course the dwarves need you. not just your might of arms and numbers, which they do need, but your thinking. Without someone to prod them along and cause a little rukus, the dwarves would go underground and stay there until the world outside is finally powerful enough to break in, and then they would die as a race. That's the only future I can see for them without you.
However, I don't know how you could convince them of that.
The empire would probably survive without the dwarves... *if* it manages to remain united. If someone inside the empire ends up with the crown, the most likely path of events is to have them tear themselves apart from within. The dwarves would do their best to stop that. The elder races nearly destroyed themselves by fighting amongst themselves. The dwarves and their allies will stop the empire from making the same mistake, as many older people do.
So, essentially what you are saying is that rather than guiding and helping the humans with it, the High Elves would rather break their alliances and help the Dwarfs wage war against them, despite the fact that the Dwarfs will (we assume) do the right thing anyway? Not only is it dishonest, it also doesn't make sense when you think about it - they're actually minimising the likelihood of a "good" outcome by refusing to give council to the Humans, the ones you claim need it, as well as the Dwarfs, who don't apparently.
Don't ask me, I was against the High Elven alliance. for basically that reason. The only people I feel the dwarves should trust were those who's motivation included "Know but Don't Care About the Crown" or "Don't Know".
Besides, what's to say that the Elves won't do the same thing? Or the Dwarfs? Or even the Lizardmen? Nothing. Besides, as I have mentioned plenty of times before, why isn't the College of Light strong enough to hold it? It's as strong at least as the Dwarfs, who were insane enough to make it in the first place, or the Elves whose malign faction raid the Empire's shores.
What council would you have them give?
"It's evil"? You will want to study it, and say that an inanimate object can't be good or evil, that it is only a tool. Look around, there are those of you already saying that.
"It's powerful"? You already know that. If we tell you more it will drive you harder to posess it... what a wonderful idea.
"It's theirs"? We said that already. You don't care.
-
*cough* spellcheck *cough*
-
*cough* spellcheck *cough*
because I missed a *c* in ruckus or the *s* in possess?
It's not unreadable... what more do you want?
-
It's ok Sterling, he's like that to everyone. :wink:
-
Your lack of respect for your superiors is stuning Keigh-mon!
We are willing to sacrefice the lives of our people to destroy the crown so that a greater evil might not come to posess it and this is how you repay us. Indeed you are like bickering children that need guidance.
We are willing to provide that guidance if you submit to our wisdom.
OOC: It seams many among you do not really undestand the menataliy of the Elves so I will try and do my best to explain it.
Elves consider themselves so superior to humans that most wouldn't even look upon one not to mention speak. You are viewed as tools for fulfilling greater schemes and to be used as a shield against chaos in the old world. To an elf there isn't much difference between you and the men of the north. Out of your 2525 years of history you spent 3/4 divided and fighting civil wars. Only in times of special individuals you acted as one for a common cause. That is very similar to the patterns seen in the north.
You also forget that apart from two expeditions conducted by Teclis almost all other historical refernece in the Empire when they talk about High Elfs is about battles against them. Great many elves see your nation as a passing thing and that once you are gone elven dominance will be reinserted over the areas they once controled.
High Elves are not the good guys of warhammer world they are Lawful Neutral. The do what they percieve as good for them rather than global good though on many occasions this coincides.
So in short you percieved High Elves as allies while they (except Teclis and Finubar) consider you little better than an Orc.
I hope I didn't insult anyone I just trying to be honest.
Now about the choices Asur.org made:
We chose Dwarfs over you because of sever things
1. They are an elder race just like us
2. Their oaths are more binding than those of men
3. GW said that Karl Franz want the crown and we don't consider that the crown even reaching your hands is acceptable
4. We once had an alliance with the Dwarfs and during that time we were at our peak, we wish that time renewed
Now the plans of the Asur.org that I hope will put your minds at east that we do not come to raid you villages and slay your people. Our primary goal is to find and destroy with any means necesary, preferably through co-operating with other elder races, the Nemesis Crown. Our secondary objective is something I hope you will find atractive.
We plan to take control with our allies of the stone circles that dot the region and use them to create a power grid that will prevent Undead and Daemons for being summoned in the region.
-
It's ok Sterling, he's like that to everyone. :wink:
lol, I didn't even make it that far in the thread... lol
I was talking about the elf... so much for perfection :-P
-
1. Ooh, so are you going to ally with Chaos Dwarfs or Dark Elves, eh?
2. The Dwarfs have just turned their backs on all the oaths with men and you think they're trustworthy?
3. Can't really argue with this, KF wants the crown to be studied, he's not some greedy so-and-so, though it might be more fun if it went slightly grittier in the terms of KF being corrupted.
4. I sincerely doubt the GW would do anything along those lines at all.
As that was OOC, I've decided to keep my arguments to it OOC.
If High Elves see themselves far above Humans, what of those in Marienburg? What of those in Altdorf?
If you're truly Lawful Neutral (talking in terms of DnD I assume?) then you aren't as different from the DE as you would like us to believe, they kill admittedly, but for self-preservation, it could be claimed. As a race High Elves are not LN, I think LG.
From my calculations from the Timeline in the Empire Army Book, for 62% of the time, we have been in peace, 38% of our time we have been in a civil war. Whilst, surely, the elves have been in a civil war since the sundering? How long would that be?
On Wikipedia, and from my knowledge, I have not heard of any historical battles between the Empire and High Elves. There's always going to be something against Wood Elves with burning of wood for light and heat etc.
So in short, the Elves we perceived as allies:
1. Don't care about the Empire.
2. Don't care about fluff.
-
I would like to point out one more thing:
The dwarven/elven envoys have stated numerous times about how humans are not trustworthy yackity yakity yack... I don't know why this should need to be pointed out, but... "EVERYONE HERE IS HUMAN!"
I'm just saying, don't forget this is a largely internet-based fluff-war that is actually being ran by people (hmm, actually... some of you might not be... *looks at Rufas in the corner eating a leg*) So when the Elven enjoy says we cant be trusted because we are human... its hypocritical
-
There are at least two mentioned in the HE army book. Battle of the three towers and one north of Salzemund. Also there is at least another in 6th ed RB and Empire 6th ed army book speaks on how to engage High Elfs in war. That didn't came out of nothing.
Generaly speaking High Elves are not that much better that Dark Elves.
-
Thank you for taking time to come and explain the HE postion Giladis.
I think it is clear that the perception of the HE that was held by many here doesn't match with the attitudes being represented by yourself. I think most people had the HE as more of the Good Guy type image.
I am going to go and reread my HE army book and see if this paradigm shift sinks in.
-
Giladis, I've got the 6th ed HE Army Book, with the RB and the Empire book, can you give me page references?
-
Giladis, thanks for keeping writing in character despite the well-earned animosity. But since you are doing so, you have to live with it...
Wissenlander is so much better at diplomatic talk, while I feel more at home with creative insults. So I'll keep it short (and in character - a bit):
2. Their oaths are more binding than those of men
4. We once had an alliance with the Dwarfs and during that time we were at our peak, we wish that time renewed
No 2.: Oh yes, we've witnessed that. Their oaths of friendship didn't keep them from invading the empire without even looking for a peaceful solution. You say those weren't oathes? Well, if dwarfs were so honourable, shouldn't their plain words be sufficient?
No 4.: I know a guy. Once he had this girlfriend, and he thinks it was the happiest time of his life. She cheated on him. She lied to him. She left him. Now she needs his help and comes back. And what does he do? Cowers at her feet like a dog, since he thinks it will bring back the old times.
Do you, Asur, by sheer coincidence know somebody like that as well?
-
I was going to try and translate that into 'nice talk' Gneisenau, but I don't think I could do it justice. :laugh:
-
No 2.: Oh yes, we've witnessed that. Their oaths of friendship didn't keep them from invading the empire without even looking for a peaceful solution. You say those weren't oathes? Well, if dwarfs were so honourable, shouldn't their plain words be sufficient?
Dis is da peaceful solution: Leave da bosses alone, let'em get dere stuff, and den dey leave.
Dwarfy generals is da most likely ta pay when da job's done. Never had a dwarf dat didn't follow da dark gods try ta sacrafice me or cheat me after da battle. Dey's followin' dere oaths uv friendship. Unfortunately, if a friend got 'imself a problem wif sumfin dat ain't no good fer im, sometimes a friend gots ta go in and take it away.
You's right ta be mad. We can only hope dat cooler 'eads will surface when it's all dun, and da dwarfses will be sorry and da humies will forgives dem and da dwarfses will frow a big feast and da emperor will declare a holiday... all we gots ta do is go get rid uv dat crown fast and wif very little damage.
-
No 2.: Oh yes, we've witnessed that. Their oaths of friendship didn't keep them from invading the empire without even looking for a peaceful solution. You say those weren't oathes? Well, if dwarfs were so honourable, shouldn't their plain words be sufficient?
This is the peaceful solution: Leave the bosses alone, let them get their stuff, and then they leave.
Dwarf generals are the most likely to pay when the job is done. I have never had a dwarf that followed the dark gods or try to sacrefice me or cheat me after the battle. They are following their oaths of friendship. Unfortunately, if a friend got himself in a problem with something that isn't any good for him, sometimes a friend has to go in and take it away.
You are right to be mad. We can only hope that cooler heads will surface when it's all done, and the dwarfs will be sorry and the humans will forgives them and the dwarfs will throw a big feast and the emperor will declare a holiday... all we have to do now is to get rid of that crown fast and with very little damage.
I think *zzzttt* tha- *zzztt* WARNING: SPELLCHECK OVERLOAD *zzttt* *zzzttt*
---------------------
-
I think *zzzttt* tha- *zzztt* WARNING: SPELLCHECK OVERLOAD *zzttt* *zzzttt*
---------------------
I do that when "in character" as an Ogre. I don't think it was quite bad enough for a translator or a snide remark.
-
I think *zzzttt* tha- *zzztt* WARNING: SPELLCHECK OVERLOAD *zzttt* *zzzttt*
---------------------
I do that when "in character" as an Ogre. I don't think it was quite bad enough for a translator or a snide remark.
O, Im sorry if you took offense to it... I was just being funny (noone could possibly make that many typos... or at least I hope not...)
It took my like 15 minutes to fix all the sentences, lol
You would make a great ogre! Er... I mean, a bad ogre.. or crap... uh...
-
It's okay Sterling, no one around 'ere will ever really be a snide bastard to you. Most folks here like to do a good ribbing though. If anything, take it as a compliment, 'cause it shows we've been paying attention to what you say. Heheh.
1. Ooh, so are you going to ally with Chaos Dwarfs or Dark Elves, eh?
2. The Dwarfs have just turned their backs on all the oaths with men and you think they're trustworthy?
3. Can't really argue with this, KF wants the crown to be studied, he's not some greedy so-and-so, though it might be more fun if it went slightly grittier in the terms of KF being corrupted.
4. I sincerely doubt the GW would do anything along those lines at all.
As that was OOC, I've decided to keep my arguments to it OOC.
If High Elves see themselves far above Humans, what of those in Marienburg? What of those in Altdorf?
If you're truly Lawful Neutral (talking in terms of DnD I assume?) then you aren't as different from the DE as you would like us to believe, they kill admittedly, but for self-preservation, it could be claimed. As a race High Elves are not LN, I think LG.
From my calculations from the Timeline in the Empire Army Book, for 62% of the time, we have been in peace, 38% of our time we have been in a civil war. Whilst, surely, the elves have been in a civil war since the sundering? How long would that be?
On Wikipedia, and from my knowledge, I have not heard of any historical battles between the Empire and High Elves. There's always going to be something against Wood Elves with burning of wood for light and heat etc.
So in short, the Elves we perceived as allies:
1. Don't care about the Empire.
2. Don't care about fluff.
Owned.
-
Dis is da peaceful solution: Leave da bosses alone, let'em get dere stuff, and den dey leave.
That has never been an acceptable solution. It may well occur as you say, the dwarfs obtain the Crown, take it somewhere safe, leave the Empire, and no one has been physically hurt - but harm has still been done.
If the Empire were to submit to that, it would set a very dangerous precedent. It would mean that it is perfectly acceptable for dwarfs (or any other 'elder' race) to march into Imperial territory, dig up whatever they like, and leave with it, all without ever notifying the appropriate Imperial authorities, explaining what they're doing, or asking for permission. Yeah, father knows best. I don't think so.
Two hypotheticals spring to mind. Firstly, what if a Chaos Dwarf army dressed itself up as dwarfs and decided to march into the Empire and make some excavations. They would be allowed to do that, for the Empire apparently doesn't have the right to wonder what you're doing on its land.
Secondly, what if some Night Goblin broke into the Pyramid of Light, stole one of the Books of Nagash, and fled into the tunnels of a dwarf hold? The Empire goes on to raise an army to track down this goblin, recover the book, and keep it safe once more. The dwarfs demand to know what Imperial soldiers are doing in their territory, and they respond with 'don't get in our way, let us get our thing, and we'll leave soon after'. Do the dwarfs submit to that? Of course they don't. How, then, can they expect us to?
Doing that would create one standard for the 'elder races' and one for the 'younger'. Considering that the title of 'elder race' is self-appointed, it begins to look very dodgy very quickly. No - I think they should all have to abide by the same standard, and that means that, if they want the Crown, the dwarfs need to ask the rulers of the Empire if they would be allowed to conduct a search.
If you're truly Lawful Neutral (talking in terms of DnD I assume?) then you aren't as different from the DE as you would like us to believe, they kill admittedly, but for self-preservation, it could be claimed. As a race High Elves are not LN, I think LG.
I'd tend to call the lizardmen the really stodgy LN types (what with their fanatical adherence to an obsolete plan and all), but it does describe the High Elves fairly well too. The difference is that the lizardmen seem to know they're LN, and consciously think of themselves as fighting on behalf of order; not on behalf of good. The High Elves are LN people who think they're LG, which is different. Stereotyping a race would be bad, and many High Elves would be different, but in terms of the way the society is structured, LN sounds like a fair judgement. Others like, oh, my favourite elf ever Teclis, would be more like NG - and of course, there are evil elves in Ulthuan, just as I'm sure there are good aligned elves among the Druchii. Their social structures, though, encourage a certain type of behaviour. In terms of that sort of structure, the Empire seems to me NN, with Bretonnia in the LN (though they like to think LG) camp as well.
-
That has never been an acceptable solution. It may well occur as you say, the dwarfs obtain the Crown, take it somewhere safe, leave the Empire, and no one has been physically hurt
man... i hope not. this is WARhammer, after all, not diplomacy-hammer. what I am really saying is that, for the good of the "forces of light", it would be best for the dwarves to win (out of dwarves, empire or orcs, the only 3 races with a legit chance).
I'm not of the belief that a empire win would corrupt K-F... they aren't going to so dramatically change the book so soon after it's release. I believe that if the Empire wins, Chaos will get a new hero in the form of a corrupted Empire Wizard.
-
what I am really saying is that, for the good of the "forces of light", it would be best for the dwarves to win (out of dwarves, empire or orcs, the only 3 races with a legit chance).
Perhaps the best in an immediate sense, where you define 'best' as 'nobody uses the Crown'. In the long term, though, I would be less confident. For me, standing on the Empire's side is a matter of principle. You do not violate someone else's territory, and you certainly do not claim that you have the right to because you're an 'elder race' and they're not.
I'm not of the belief that a empire win would corrupt K-F... they aren't going to so dramatically change the book so soon after it's release. I believe that if the Empire wins, Chaos will get a new hero in the form of a corrupted Empire Wizard.
Probably, but it also makes sense that they would give the Empire some reward for winning.
Or they could the whole way and have Karl Franz turn evil, run into the Chaos Wastes, have a succession crisis, and it's time for the Age of Three Emperors Two: Ulric's Revenge, wherein Karl Franz's heir tries to declare himself Emperor, but fails to get the electors' support due to his father's obvious mistakes, Todbringer steps up to the plate and has Ar-Ulric crown him Emperor, and Emmanuelle von Liebewitz decides to fill in as Averland's elector 'in the interests of peace' and, with Stirland's support, declares herself Empress. And the Empire is in chaos once again, thus justifying all sorts of wild campaigns and battles in the future.
-
You do not violate someone else's territory, and you certainly do not claim that you have the right to because you're an 'elder race' and they're not.
I agree with you... The empire is being wronged by the dwarves. However, the dwarves don't feel they have a choice in the matter... and from their point of view, they are doing what they must not only for themselves, but to aid the empire.
those two forces are in a very difficult position for allies to be in, and in that I applaud GW for this particular set up. If only they had given the same thought to some of the other races :(
-
I agree with you there. It's great to see a campaign that doesn't revolve around the axiomatic good/evil struggle, but is much more complex and morally ambiguous. Both the dwarf players and Empire players can OOC think they're the side of 'good', which makes it an interesting conflict and, for me, the best part of the entire campaign.
That said, the other armies' motivations are pretty thin. Orcs and Goblins boils down to 'they're fighting again, let's smash some heads', which is what they always did anyway. Vampire Counts are too busy crying about the death of Mannfred to actually read their story. Lizardmen have the generic 'preserve the Old Ones' plan' motivation again. Dark Elves are raiding... yet again. Skaven are stealing precious warpstone, wow, who'd have seen that one coming. And so on. None of those are really interesting from a narrative perspective.
On that note, I applaud what you've done with ogres. Their stock motivation is pretty boring, but you've really improved on that by getting in there. It's interesting to see the dwarfs hiring them. Some people, like me for example, would think that's dishonourable and exposes the dwarfs as hypocrites, but they don't think that. That sort of conflict is great because not only do both sides think they're right IC, but OOC both players can seriously argue that their army is in the right. (I mean, in contrast, Malekith is in a strict legal sense the rightful king of Ulthuan, but I've never met a Dark Elf player who doesn't think his army is evil.)
-
I'm sorry if I stood on anybody's toes with my postings at Asur.org. I was going to post a summary of my talks here after my final posting but this thread was created first. I got a positive response when I posted my original submission here, but as Jerok was still in discussion with his diplomats I posted it with the signature CaptScott - An independant voice for the Empire, so I would not come accross as completely official. There ended up being a total of four main postings, and if you are interested please go over to Asur.org and read them (the third page in the 'Greatings from the Empire' thread). I think I raised some very valid arguments, but the High Elves seem to be set in their position.
The main points I argued were as follows.
-Karl Franz seeks to study the Crown, and will destroy it if necessary
-the Empire would be a good place for all nations to come together to decide the fate of the Crown, and that the HE would pe perfect to assist us in this endeavour.
-study and carful consideration are characteristics of the Asur, not the rash actions of dwarves
-For the Empire no real evidence exists to say the crown is evil. (I'm still not sure that I acccept that "we feel it is evil" is an adequate argument) I can just picture some gummy ol' elf sitting on a rocking chair muttering "it's evil I tells' ya, I feel it in me bones..."
-can the dwarves be trusted, they made the crown
-once the dwarves have the crown will they listen to the Asur, or will they act as they see fit.
-any conflict between our races could represent a larger evil than what the Asur believe to be contained in the crown.
-conflict should be avoided where possible.
-the 'evil' forces will see no distinction between our races. Divided we are weak, united we are strong.
By the way, I have really enjoyed Giladis's posts, very IC for an Elven commander. Additionally as I said before, an agreement between all the elder races is very fluffy, and I support them for it.
Their still may be a solution however. Perhaps a 'real life' gentlemens agreement can be put in place with both the High elves and the Dwarves. We could simply suggest that at gaming events/clubs etc for the duration of the campaign where possible our forces will not fight each other. For example if there is a choice between an orc and high elf opponent, we choose the orc. We could also work this into some form of fluff agreement/treaty. Above all this in some small way would act towards ensuring that at least the dwarves or the Empire win the campaign (though I still think that the orcs winning could be fun, just imagine the WAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!!!)
-
The problem I see here is that the dwarves don't act because of sense or valor....they act out of shame. The shame that something they have done could come up perhaps the crown isn't evil but just hold a dark secret of the dwarves. Why shouldn't they talk about it otherwise. Also a dwarf NEVER is sorry for any of his actions...if they would feel any guilt we will have a slayer boom after the war but nothing like an apology.
I would like to see some High Elves led by Teclis or a surge of Seeguard under the overall command of Finubar. Cause even it is royal elfish to see the empire as "meatshield" perhaps with some sort of peace between the Asur and Man there could be talk about invading Naggaroth with the help of the Empire.
(how about shaving the head of the elven ambassador or clipping his ears?)
-
(how about shaving the head of the elven ambassador or clipping his ears?)
Now that would be a thing to see :icon_biggrin:
Some asked for page references: HE AB - 61, 62 EM AB - 66 the reference from 6th ed RB is somewhere in the background section, it even comes with a picture of the battle, I can't give the exact page number cause I don't have the RB at the moment where I am.
Another good explanation on what High Elfs are is this. High Elves have the same capricious mentaliy as the Wood Elves with the difference they consider the entire world as their responsibilitie rather than just one forest.
I think the Empire players are forgeting that their land is built on the land that both Elves and Dwarfs consider theirs but are allowing you to live there because they currently don't have the strength to protect agaisnt Orc/Beastmen etc. When they march though the Empire they don't feel inclined to report anything to anyone for wouldn't it be strange to ask someone else to allow you to move over somethin that is "yours".
Elves of Marienburgh and the few those that can be found elsewhere in the old world should not be seen as whatching humans with respect but more in a way how we watch a pack of apes with interests. After all they are merchants and as long as profitable trade can be achieved everyone except Orcs/Choas/Undead/DRuchii is a viable customer.
Someone asked what if Dwarfs took the Crown and refused to give it for destruction. Than they would be called oath breakers their entire race disgraced and a mighty host of High Elves, LIzardmen and all other willing to accompany us before their gates.
To an elf there is no question about the Crown,. It is made out of solidified True Dark Magic aka Wyrdstone/Warpstone. It corrupts everything in its vicinity just some races are more ressistant to it or are affected differently. It is the stuff of Chaos and to a High Elf it has no place in this world no matter for its possibile positive affects (the person wearing it will get command over his entire race).
High Elves are not pawns of the Dwarfs in this matter in spite contrary belief. We have our own agendas but through weighting pros and cons we decided helping the Dwarfs would be more beneficial to us in the future than helping you.
Had we gone with you against the Dwarfs we would harm our relations (that have slowly been geting better and better) with the dwarfs for another few thousand years. On the other hand most Empire people will not know apart from odd legends what occuerd in 3 or 4 centuries (1/5 of an average elven lifetime) and when Chaos rises its uglly head once more. Elves will come to help you win the day as we did before. Buissness as usual.
Oh! The insolence! You dare threaten and insult Us! Was it not for our grace there would be no Empire. What would happen should we decide to rob your mages of their power or for the Dwarfs to stop making arms and armours for your warriors. You would become no better than you western kin, pawns of the sylvan folk!
From this rude and guttural sounds you call "language" I managed, though my ears aked from it, to understand what you say. You object us that we chose Dwarfs over you and from your frenzied behaviour I see that no words can explain it to you. So I will put it like it. The circle of fortune, goes round and round, never stoping. Today we shall stand by the Dwarfs against you, tomorrow it can be the oposite.
The council of our Loremasters saw that you wish to study the cursed object of dwarven folly and pride and we cannot allow anyone to do so. All that wish and proclaim that will be considered as declaring war upon the Twin Thrones.
Once more I offer you a chance for salvation and survival. Stay away! Protect your homes from the evils that rise in the land and make way for us to undo the Crown. If you shall act as said no harm will come to you, but if you would obstruct our mission your armies shall be laid waste.
OOC:
I talked with Wissenlander on Asur.org and the Elven nation is willing to offer you a treaty that could be called Non-agression.
1. Do not attack us and we shall not attack you.
2. Leave our buissness alone unless you are invided to them for the end result will benefit you in the form of preventing summonings of the Undead and Daemons in the region.
3. Do not attack the Dwarfs as your main enemy and we shall not interfere in occassional skirmishes between you two.
4. Should Dwarfs come to strongly against you and we deem that by doing so they are risking the balance of the world you may expect our support.
5. Do not try to study the Crown should it fall in your possession.
I offer you to name 3 terms of the agreement of your own to be added to the treaty.
All the best
Giladis
-
I again good elf can speak only for myself because my rank is low in the military of the forces of the empire. I am a humble defender of the faith in Sigmar. I will tell you this from my point of view...at least in my eyes it is clear that none of my soldiers or of the militia I recruited in the Räuberthal will ever do any harm to any of the great elder races without any provocation. There are already countless enemies in the area. But because you seem not to be obliged to our laws you won't share the hospitality of my fire and my food. No Dwarf or Elf will get anything from me I will stand aside if I see your armies in peril and I will defend myself and all humans of the Empire and Bretonnia if I see them attacked by dwarves or elves. If I catch any of you scouts foraging in the Räuberthal he will be hung as a Brigand. I therefore have nothing to say to you good lord *bows his head* I will leave now and prepare my troops to fight the evil that has come to OUR land....no matter what shapes it comes in
-
How frightfully kind of you and the Dwarves to allow us humble little man things to play on your land these past 3000 years, yes'm sir we will humbly roll over now you want to come back.
Or, I tell you what, if any of your forces in The Barren Hills do not make better representation you will be considered invaders. I have faith that Wissenlander can bring us closer to the NAP but if not I will not deliberately target an Asur but would lose no sleep over the corpses of your dying race.
Oh, by the way Ulthan belongs to the primordeal soup from which you evolved and it would like it back, do you mind just leaving please!
-
I think the Empire players are forgeting that their land is built on the land that both Elves and Dwarfs consider theirs but are allowing you to live there because they currently don't have the strength to protect agaisnt Orc/Beastmen etc. When they march though the Empire they don't feel inclined to report anything to anyone for wouldn't it be strange to ask someone else to allow you to move over somethin that is "yours".
The beauty of that statement, is that we consider it ours also. And with that same logic, if we were to witness an army traversing across our land without any indication of intent, I find no reason for Imperial forces not to engage them. We apes can't tell the difference between High Elves and Dark Elves if both show equal malice and indifference. We are after all just trying to defend our land from the forces of evil.
Someone asked what if Dwarfs took the Crown and refused to give it for destruction. Than they would be called oath breakers their entire race disgraced and a mighty host of High Elves, LIzardmen and all other willing to accompany us before their gates.
You mean like the oaths they are currently breaking?
And do you seriously tell me that a High Elf host would even bother leaving your little island? Like you did for the Phoenix crown? You did real well then, didn't you. Besides, any hint of more than a couple of of waships leaving your homeland, Malekith and the entire force of the Dark Elves will wipe you off the face of the Warhammer world.
To an elf there is no question about the Crown,. It is made out of solidified True Dark Magic aka Wyrdstone/Warpstone. It corrupts everything in its vicinity just some races are more ressistant to it or are affected differently. It is the stuff of Chaos and to a High Elf it has no place in this world no matter for its possibile positive affects (the person wearing it will get command over his entire race).
There is no way for you to know that. Or anyone. There has been no study by any race on this item, the only reason we know ANYTHING about it is because GW provided it to us as players. No one knows anything. Alaric was the only one, and he has long been passed away. There are stories, but these are no different than any other fable.
High Elves are not pawns of the Dwarfs in this matter in spite contrary belief. We have our own agendas but through weighting pros and cons we decided helping the Dwarfs would be more beneficial to us in the future than helping you.
Regardless of what you believe your positioning is, you exhibit little to the contrary. Besides, the one dimensional nature of your support is somewhat off. If you truly wished to prevent evil taking the crown, you would not care who aided you. Humans, Dwarves and Elves are all equally corruptible.
Had we gone with you against the Dwarfs we would harm our relations (that have slowly been geting better and better) with the dwarfs for another few thousand years.
Again, I see no evidence of this, and you will NEVER get back the phoenix crown. Long ago, I suggested that you ally with us, so that you could use the Nemesis crown as an item to exchange for your crown, but allying with the enemy will not assist you in reclaiming your prize.
Oh, and Welcome to the Forum :biggriin:
-
I think the Empire players are forgeting that their land is built on the land that both Elves and Dwarfs consider theirs but are allowing you to live there because they currently don't have the strength to protect agaisnt Orc/Beastmen etc. When they march though the Empire they don't feel inclined to report anything to anyone for wouldn't it be strange to ask someone else to allow you to move over somethin that is "yours".
This would be the double standard that I, and I am sure others as well, find so offensive. How do they justify that belief? It's arrogance, pure and simple. It's easy to portray the Nemesis Crown campaign in an ideological light, the 'let's have the human race stand up and assert its power, no longer to be the pawn of races who claim to be older and wiser' light.
Oh! The insolence! You dare threaten and insult Us! Was it not for our grace there would be no Empire. What would happen should we decide to rob your mages of their power or for the Dwarfs to stop making arms and armours for your warriors. You would become no better than you western kin, pawns of the sylvan folk!
We are pawns to no elves of the forest, High Elf! We serve the Lady of the Lake, she who embodies the land of Bretonnia and guides our blades. The Lady is not some elven trick - that you would dare to claim such is evidence of how arrogant you have grown in your foolishness. She is representative of the defiant spirit of justice and honour that all true sons of Bretonnia hold to their breast, and you could learn much from her about concepts such as loyalty and respect for your allies.
(In fairness, I hold to the theory that the Lady is Isha, and vice versa. I don't think either personality is necessarily dominant, they're just two different guises under which the same spirit is worshipped, and each is equally true. In that light, elves are good and all, and I do think the Wood Elves played a role in allowing the Lady to reach her current prominence. Despite their attempts at manipulation, though, I do think the Lady Isha harbours a genuine love for Bretonnia and Bretonnians, just as she does for the forests and the elves. That they fight each other would surely sadden her. Still, IC, I don't know that.)
-
What we never should forget is that we owe the High Elves a lot. Without their sacrifice on the isle of dead and aenarion the world would be in peril. This said I think we should speak to wiser elves than this... so called ambassador. Lets send envoys to Finubar and Teclis. Lets give all Elves on imperial soil advantages in trade and hospitality and show them that we are in no way either so arrogant as some of their kind or stubbern and filled with vengance than the dwarves. I actually have very good trade relations with a band of Shadow Warriors of Nargarythe and they are noble and intelligent. Let us not jump to the bait of insults of this lowly elf for in my eyes he only can be an envoy from the druchii.
-
This would be the double standard that I, and I am sure others as well, find so offensive. How do they justify that belief? It's arrogance, pure and simple. It's easy to portray the Nemesis Crown campaign in an ideological light, the 'let's have the human race stand up and assert its power, no longer to be the pawn of races who claim to be older and wiser' light.
I do not need to justify it, that is what High Elfs are, arrogant as hell.
Humans, Dwarves and Elves are all equally corruptible.
Not true. The best example are the Druchii annointed. Several thousand years in chaos wastes and they got different skin coloration. When it goes on the level of coruptability to chaos it is like this. Lizardmen/Orcs - Elves/Halflings - Ogres/Dwarfs - Men.
Again, I see no evidence of this, and you will NEVER get back the phoenix crown. Long ago, I suggested that you ally with us, so that you could use the Nemesis crown as an item to exchange for your crown, but allying with the enemy will not assist you in reclaiming your prize.
Actually we no longer whant the Phoenix Crown as it would only reminds us of our past failiures.
Oh, and Welcome to the Forum :biggriin:
Thanks
-
As with the rest of your precious Elder Races, you are a fool. You would turn against those who seek your help. I personally care nothing for this crown. But in the attitude of you and the Dwarfs, I will fight against that. This is our land, you were our friends. Now, that you come mincing into our land, without permission, armed for war, then war you shall have.
IC, I'm a very loud and ulrican fighty guy.
HEAB: On 61, I see nothing of fights between the Empire and HE.
62: Now, something interesting, HE land on beaches by an Imperial coastal village North of Salzemund. Having never seen an elf before, they are naturally worried. When two regiments of soldiers turn up, they find no sign of them, or a temple of Ulric, simply an obelisk. The regiments are not found, but the report is attached to a tree by an arrow of mysterious origin. So, the HE were the aggressors in my view.
In OEB, the key word is "even" showing this is not a common occurrence, and may be due to the arrogance and a similar position we are in today.
Note: corruptibility chart would be:
Lizardmen/Orcs-Halflings/Ogres-Elves/Dwarfs/Humans
Why then do we see few Elves or Dwarfs who have mutations? Because they are mercilessly purged from existence. Due to the experience they have, in that respect they are akin to Kislevites and the people of the north of the Empire.
-
The best example are the Druchii annointed. Several thousand years in chaos wastes and they got different skin coloration. When it goes on the level of coruptability to chaos it is like this. Lizardmen/Orcs - Elves/Halflings - Ogres/Dwarfs - Men.
Actually we no longer whant the Phoenix Crown as it would only reminds us of our past failiures.
No it just shows that the elves are normally corrupted in ther minds first than in their appearance. This might be a plan of the great powers of chaos. What makes someone more or less corruptible is the strength of his soul and his determination otherwise there could be no human magicians that shouldn't be killed after a couple of years fighting on the battlefields.
That you don't want the Phoenix Crown ...a symbol of unity of all elves of ulthuan...shows to what degree of pity it has come to your race...at least of the ones like you. The elves would do good to think about their leading nobility and check if there shouldn't be some kind of new rulership.
-
I do not need to justify it, that is what High Elfs are, arrogant as hell.
You don't; you're the player. But this is like the Dark Elf player not needing to justify why his army is hypocritical - he plays an evil army and he knows it, and evil armies have always had the good fortune of not needing to justify themselves. However, the High Elves seem to think they are good, and I notice many High Elf players think they are playing a good army.
How do they justify it? For me, I'm perfectly happy to say that while High Elves have many good qualities, in some regards they're total [expletive]s. They have unpleasant cultural traits. Bretonnia has its deeply ingrained sexism and classism. The Empire has its paranoid witch hunts and selfish rulers with no interest in the nation's welfare. Dwarfs have their insane conservatism and ridiculously petty concept of grudges. And High Elves have their astounding cultural arrogance.
That doesn't mean we need to think those are good things, though. They're horrible things, for all of the good races have negative sides.
Not true. The best example are the Druchii annointed. Several thousand years in chaos wastes and they got different skin coloration. When it goes on the level of coruptability to chaos it is like this. Lizardmen/Orcs - Elves/Halflings - Ogres/Dwarfs - Men.
In terms of physical mutability, you may be right, but I would point out that mutability is not a measure of morality or wisdom. All that means is that from a purely biological perspective it is easier for Chaos energy to warp the human physical form.
That says nothing about how 'good' they are. There are many examples of humans who have been physically mutated but were not rendered evil. Vargr Breughel (Drachenfels) and Bruno Malvoison (Genevieve Undead) are two examples of humans who were hideously mutated and nonetheless maintained a strong moral code. Or the Sigmarite monks of Alt Krantzstein in Zavant were also mutated, in their case by warpstone dust in the wells, and did not falter in their beliefs or turn to evil.
So really, though humans are more physically mutable, they are not a whit more susceptible to seduction by evil artifacts. On the intellectual level, they are every bit as capable of resisting as elves or dwarfs. They might be more likely to sprout tentacles, but there is no correlation between mutations and evil.
-
Not true. The best example are the Druchii annointed. Several thousand years in chaos wastes and they got different skin coloration. When it goes on the level of coruptability to chaos it is like this. Lizardmen/Orcs - Elves/Halflings - Ogres/Dwarfs - Men.
In terms of physical mutability, you may be right, but I would point out that mutability is not a measure of morality or wisdom. All that means is that from a purely biological perspective it is easier for Chaos energy to warp the human physical form.
So really, though humans are more physically mutable, they are not a whit more susceptible to seduction by evil artifacts. On the intellectual level, they are every bit as capable of resisting as elves or dwarfs. They might be more likely to sprout tentacles, but there is no correlation between mutations and evil.
That's exactly the point I was going to make (thanks, FVC :wink:). In fact, I think the Druchii annointed one of the best examples how Elves/Dwarfs can indeed be corrupted.
I think the Empire players are forgeting that their land is built on the land that both Elves and Dwarfs consider theirs but are allowing you to live there because they currently don't have the strength to protect agaisnt Orc/Beastmen etc. When they march though the Empire they don't feel inclined to report anything to anyone for wouldn't it be strange to ask someone else to allow you to move over somethin that is "yours".
You may be right in that HE's see it like that, it could be (and seems indeed right seeing their arrogance). But Dwarfs certainly don't - the lands of the Empire are ours since the time of Sigmar, by the oaths taken by the Dwarf High King in that time. They may think they have good reasons to "visit" us now, but they're still invading our lands with armies.
By the way, welcome to the forum Giladis, good to see you here. I'm sorry if the tone is somewhat overly defensive sometimes, but it's hard to keep reading time and again that we should just roll over and wait till the Crown is found by our "elders". It's all IC and all, and most posters are not too insulting. But both on Bugman's and Asur.org there were some responses that made it hard to stay calm - and since I was an ambassador back then, I figured I had to keep things civil. But now you are the ambassador. :wink:
-
Or they could the whole way and have Karl Franz turn evil, run into the Chaos Wastes, have a succession crisis, and it's time for the Age of Three Emperors Two: Ulric's Revenge, wherein Karl Franz's heir tries to declare himself Emperor, but fails to get the electors' support due to his father's obvious mistakes, Todbringer steps up to the plate and has Ar-Ulric crown him Emperor, and Emmanuelle von Liebewitz decides to fill in as Averland's elector 'in the interests of peace' and, with Stirland's support, declares herself Empress. And the Empire is in chaos once again, thus justifying all sorts of wild campaigns and battles in the future.
Ho-ly crap! :icon_eek: I won't even get started on Emanuella...
A lot of this can work, but then again some of it will not. I wouldn't make concessions to the Dwarfs who have been closer to us for a much longer period of time, and I'm sorry (sort of) to say it, but I won't make too many concessions for anyone else either (with the support of everyone here of course). My thoughts are in red below:
I talked with Wissenlander on Asur.org and the Elven nation is willing to offer you a treaty that could be called Non-agression.
1. Do not attack us and we shall not attack you.
I think this is self explanatory.
2. Leave our buissness alone unless you are invided to them for the end result will benefit you in the form of preventing summonings of the Undead and Daemons in the region.
I don't think this would mean that if we did 'interfere' that you'd let these monstrosities roam the earth. What is interference though? I don't think that movement through our own lands should be restricted, but at the same time we shouldn't openly seek to fight you as above. Still, if you see something as 'interference' and you attack us first, as stated above, we would have no choice but to defend ourselves.
3. Do not attack the Dwarfs as your main enemy and we shall not interfere in occassional skirmishes between you two.
Again, this is self explanatory.
4. Should Dwarfs come to strongly against you and we deem that by doing so they are risking the balance of the world you may expect our support.
So you don't think of us utter scum after all...
5. Do not try to study the Crown should it fall in your possession.
Don't think that's going to happen. I still stand by Council of the Wise, with the support of this forum. I know you've stated that everyone involved in the GDA would say destroy it or whatever, but at least we would be there to participate. If it should be destroyed that's one thing, at least we would be amongst equals. The way that the GDA wants it right now, we'll get a spanking for taking the high road.
I offer you to name 3 terms of the agreement of your own to be added to the treaty.
1. Coordination with Imperial representatives as you move through our lands. This would make sure that no miscommunications happen and unneccesary bloodshed occur.
2.Upon finding of the crown, a Council of the Wise be convened, if nothing more than to destroy the crown with all of the 'good guys' present.
3.A thousand more wishes...I mean, can't think of anything else right now. :wink:
I don't mind negotiation, and we can continue to do so. But don't expect us to come to the table with our heads lowered like servants.
OOC: At least I think this is out of character. :wink: No offense Giladis, this is nothing personal so don't take it as such. I know that our strong words are often misconstrued.
-
A non-aggression pact eh?
1. as wiss said, self-explanatory.
2. well, what is your business? If it is something opposed to the Empire or its allies in some way, I doubt that we could leave it be.
3. I doubt that they will be considered our main enemy (I think they were the first race we approached) if nothing other than lesser of X evils.
4.Wow, so its not all "Elder Races rule". That's good.
5. I doubt we could comply with this, I think that we're going to have a Council of the Wise anyway. Even if it is just to decide in what manner we should destroy it.
Empire:
I think that 5 should be replaced as above.
All elven armies should be in communication with the Imperial commander of their region so they will not be attacked by an Imperial Army if found in the region.
To rest of Empire:
Something about Marienburg may be appropriate? Allowing them to maintain trading rights if we get it? If we're doing it with the Brets, why not something in this agreement with the HE? Adds more validity to it.
-
Someone asked what if Dwarfs took the Crown and refused to give it for destruction. Than they would be called oath breakers their entire race disgraced and a mighty host of High Elves, LIzardmen and all other willing to accompany us before their gates.
(...)
High Elves are not pawns of the Dwarfs in this matter in spite contrary belief. We have our own agendas but through weighting pros and cons we decided helping the Dwarfs would be more beneficial to us in the future than helping you.
Had we gone with you against the Dwarfs we would harm our relations (that have slowly been geting better and better) with the dwarfs for another few thousand years. On the other hand most Empire people will not know apart from odd legends what occuerd in 3 or 4 centuries (1/5 of an average elven lifetime) and when Chaos rises its uglly head once more. Elves will come to help you win the day as we did before. Buissness as usual.
So many characterfull remarks currently jump up and down in my head, but since it seems that many people here still are somewhat lenient towards you Asur, I won't spoil their hopes by paying you back for your speeches in equal terms.
Just so much: I really recommend reading the fluff, and if not all the fluff, then at least your own armybook. P. 57 tells us that the Asur think the Dwarfs once allied with the Druchii. Have the High Elves forgotten this already? Then they are fickle indeed, much more than men. Or have they reconsidered? How much I'd like to see that...:
High Elf ambassador: "You are not worthy of being talked to! You allied with our arch-enemy, the incarnation of all that's evil!"
Dwarf ambassador: "No, we didn't."
High Elf ambassador: "Really? Oh. And we thought... alright... Okay, if you say so, then it's settled. Fancy an alliance?"
-
Gneisenau just speak your mind because here in the empire everyone is allowed to speak his free will...if the elf takes this as a personal rebuke and coins it on all of our fellow generals he is doing a poor job as an ambassador.
-
I see NO reason to feel the need to follow the so-called "Elder" races... and little to ask for their help
Lets see. Dwarves and Elves, once two great civilizations (BTW, you had to have "started" somewhere), destroy themselves in a 2000 year pointless grudge-match, and are now at the lowest point in your entire races civilizations
The Elves are capable of marching to war (kinda), but are the Dwarves really kidding themselves into believing they have the manpower (er, dwarf power?) to maintain their crumbling keeps along with sparing enough soldiers to advanced to war against the *deep booming* Great Empire of Mankind!
You know what else? Dwarves are great fighters. Underground. In holes where numbers cant work against them. Or in their large walls where they don't have to worry about getting attacked by the enemy
How well do you think they will fare when in the middle of the Empire's grand forests!? Outnumbered, outgunned, outmaneuvered... (pictures dwarf host walking into Athel (sp?) Loren... must have taken a wrong turn at Albuquerque...)
The elves aren't really any better off, although it would be a warm day in the chaos wastes that an elf would admit it
We are the Greatest Empire Of Mankind (kindly shoos away Cathay Ambassador)! For 5 Editions we have suffered, now it is our time to shine!! Whos with me!?!
-
I also believe that a central part of the Empire is the huge numbers of Dwarfs who live in our towns and cities, and who owe allegiance to the Emperor as his citizens before some King in a hole in the ground somewhere. Again I see this as a potential muddying of the ethical waters - being four foot tall doesn't make you some grudge bearing, Karak inhabiting cardboard cut-out of a person, but a dwarf. Mixed emotions, muddied loyalties and split infinitives etcetera.
-
Cheers of glory and Valour!
Hipp hipp Hurraaaaa
Hipp hipp Hurraaaaaaaaaaaa
Hipp hipp Huraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Hands out a bunch of steins filled with german beer
-
Guys,
While I fully understand your fluff reasons and frustration for this, please keep in mind that this is a negotiation. I've been doing a lot of that on other forums, and I know how it feels - so I'd like to say a few things. I pity Giladis a bit at his stage, it's certainly hard to keep reading all this and try to answer to everything.
I don't mind negotiations one bit, and everyone can say what he likes, but please keep in mind that all of this is in character -IC- and that sometimes it must be made clear that posts should be understood in such a way. Oh, and keep your posts on-topic; even though I do like German beer (not as good as Belgian beer of course, but it's decent :wink:), I do not think the last post contributed much to the discussion.
Sorry if I sound like I'm ranting, by the way. Blame it on my lack of sleep in the examinations period.
-
To rest of Empire:
Something about Marienburg may be appropriate? Allowing them to maintain trading rights if we get it? If we're doing it with the Brets, why not something in this agreement with the HE? Adds more validity to it.
Is anybody going to respond to this, or is that not insulting Elves enough for everyone else?
Should a separate topic be started for the negotiations, and leave this one for Elf-bashing?
We had the insults, now we've moved onto (possibly) negotiations for a non-aggression pact, which would be hampered due to wanton insults. That's diplomacy. :wink:
-
To rest of Empire:
Something about Marienburg may be appropriate? Allowing them to maintain trading rights if we get it? If we're doing it with the Brets, why not something in this agreement with the HE? Adds more validity to it.
Is anybody going to respond to this, or is that not insulting Elves enough for everyone else?
Should a separate topic be started for the negotiations, and leave this one for Elf-bashing?
We had the insults, now we've moved onto (possibly) negotiations for a non-aggression pact, which would be hampered due to wanton insults. That's diplomacy. :wink:
In America it is :icon_wink: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush) :wink:
-
I think that this would deal with fluff more than anything else. To write up a treaty that has nothing to do with the Elves doesn't make sense to me. If they can support that in the fluff it would then make it more binding I agree.
And I don't really think we should have a making fun of the Elf specific thread. Not good. Let's show a little class guys (not pointing fingers at anyone, just all of us in general). We didn't like some of the snide remarks we'd get going to other forums, let's not do the same to others.
-
Hi Cisse
I know you have been working hard on negotiations on a number of fronts. I think the way this one was felt to be different to all the efforts I have seen from other races and to other races, in that it was presented in the form of a threat. There could be an argument in that this was in character but even still a negotiation is just that, you state your position and try to gage the opinions of the others. This was not a negotiation from the start, there may be things some people missed from Asur.org, I hope the situation is recoverable, but as things stand there have been no concessions from the elves.
-
To rest of Empire:
Something about Marienburg may be appropriate? Allowing them to maintain trading rights if we get it? If we're doing it with the Brets, why not something in this agreement with the HE? Adds more validity to it.
The problem with any treaty involving Marienburg is that as the NEB states (p21) that there have been "Numerous attempts over the past decades to restore Marienburg to the Empire.", from which I'd infer that the Empire still claims its sovereignty over and refuses to accept the independence of the city state. I guess it's like the Vatican during various stages of its history, or the Arab/Israeli conflict - both sides are able to go through de facto negotiations, but none to the extent of recognising sovereignty as it limits their ability to claim it later.
Personally I'm of the opinion that there's no grounds or room for an alliance or agreement, either in terms of fluff or game mechanics, but that's just me. Our few points of agreement with the Dwarfs, such as limited warfare and decent treatment of civilians, were points of mutual interest. We don't have any with the Asur - as has been made clear they don't value human lives, share the same values as the Empire or even consider us worth making any gestures of respect towards. While the Dwarfs have acted as traitors fluff wise, they at least had an understandable reason (and to be fair the Empire, and KF especially has been behaving a little brashly, if in character), unlike the Elves. Fluff wise I think my general will be acting under a policy of "Don't shoot, let 'em burn." - but that's partly because he's mercenary scum who'd sacrifice his own mother for twelve brass pennies.
-
Fluff wise I think my general will be acting under a policy of "Don't shoot, let 'em burn." - but that's partly because he's mercenary scum who'd sacrifice his own mother for twelve brass pennies.
!? Doesn't your general represent you? That explains alot :lol:
-
Hi Cisse
I know you have been working hard on negotiations on a number of fronts. I think the way this one was felt to be different to all the efforts I have seen from other races and to other races, in that it was presented in the form of a threat. There could be an argument in that this was in character but even still a negotiation is just that, you state your position and try to gage the opinions of the others. This was not a negotiation from the start, there may be things some people missed from Asur.org, I hope the situation is recoverable, but as things stand there have been no concessions from the elves.
You're probably right. Im not saying that Giladis did an exceptionally good job, just that we should 1) stay on-topic and 2) civil. As I see it, Giladis just started this discussion by stating the HE stance, in response to remarks at Asur.org. NOt even sure if he meant to start a negotiation... But I'm glad we're talking now.
-
It is true I just primarely came over to make you aware of the Asur stance. And now it has developed into this.
Don't worry guys I have taken no insult, all this is quite fun :icon_cool:
I talked with Wissenlander on Asur.org and the Elven nation is willing to offer you a treaty that could be called Non-agression.
1. Do not attack us and we shall not attack you.
I think this is self explanatory.
One agreed.
2. Leave our buissness alone unless you are invided to them for the end result will benefit you in the form of preventing summonings of the Undead and Daemons in the region.
I don't think this would mean that if we did 'interfere' that you'd let these monstrosities roam the earth. What is interference though? I don't think that movement through our own lands should be restricted, but at the same time we shouldn't openly seek to fight you as above. Still, if you see something as 'interference' and you attack us first, as stated above, we would have no choice but to defend ourselves.
We are going along with our allies to take control of the Stone Circles in the region in order to create a power grid that will prevent daemons and undad to be summoned there. We are explaining our actions as a way of building new defences against Chaos you bitch slaped so well a few years back and to create a safe zone within allready dangerous Great Forest, for possibile elven colonist for Athel Loren and Avelorn.
3. Do not attack the Dwarfs as your main enemy and we shall not interfere in occassional skirmishes between you two.
Again, this is self explanatory.
Two agreed.
4. Should Dwarfs come to strongly against you and we deem that by doing so they are risking the balance of the world you may expect our support.
So you don't think of us utter scum after all...
We believe ourselves as protectors of the world and we do all that is necesary.
5. Do not try to study the Crown should it fall in your possession.
Don't think that's going to happen. I still stand by Council of the Wise, with the support of this forum. I know you've stated that everyone involved in the GDA would say destroy it or whatever, but at least we would be there to participate. If it should be destroyed that's one thing, at least we would be amongst equals. The way that the GDA wants it right now, we'll get a spanking for taking the high road.
I offer you to name 3 terms of the agreement of your own to be added to the treaty.
1. Coordination with Imperial representatives as you move through our lands. This would make sure that no miscommunications happen and unneccesary bloodshed occur.
This is something that we will have to discuss a bit more, but should we agree upon it the representative would also have to belong to one of the collegues of magic.
2.Upon finding of the crown, a Council of the Wise be convened, if nothing more than to destroy the crown with all of the 'good guys' present.
Agreeable under one condition that you do not study the crown before the Council is convened, upon the council you will be allowed to petition for a combined study conducted by the finest Runelords, Archmages, Slann Priest and who ever other representatives deem worthy to send.
-
I have to note once again that a little arrogance of the elves is quite acceptable especially because they HAVE saved the sorry butts of the Humans a couple of times already. Also they will sacrifice themselves if it is neccessary. But there are honourable and dishonourable Elves as there are munchkins under the Empire Generals. But there CAN't be only one super power world police and I think a couple of people will see some parallels here...
Therefore I see no greater point over accurate points towards the elves because I think they will not stay true to the agreements because it is in their nature...why should they stay to their word they gave towards an ape meatshield? I say lets do this from our side lets hand out a decree that no empire General in Helstroms Corpse is allowed to start aggression against an Elf.
-
I think point 2 could be simplified:
2. The Empire should not attempt to take any Stone Circles in the possession of the High Elves until their ritual is complete.
With wissenlander's points, 5. should be changed to:
5. If either side finds the Crown, then a Council shall be held, with representatives of all good races (High Elves, Imperial Humans, Bretonnian Humans, World's Edge Dwarfs, Wood Elves and Lizardmen). A study by representatives of all races shall be made of the crown, and the findings shall be made known to the Council, at which a decision shall be made on the Crown's fate.
-
Agreeable under one condition that you do not study the crown before the Council is convened, upon the council you will be allowed to petition for a combined study conducted by the finest Runelords, Archmages, Slann Priest and who ever other representatives deem worthy to send.
Who does the deeming? What authority decides that a given runelord, archmage, or slann is worthy? And what about the authority of the Colleges of Magic?
I have to note once again that a little arrogance of the elves is quite acceptable especially because they HAVE saved the sorry butts of the Humans a couple of times already. Also they will sacrifice themselves if it is neccessary.
The door swings both ways. If not for the Empire, the High Elves would have been destroyed after the Great War Against Chaos, and again after the Storm of Chaos. Aenarion saved the world from Chaos, but both Asavar Kul and Archaon were Everchosen as well, and equally posed a threat to the world. For that matter, didn't Sigmar kill the Everchosen Morkar? In terms of Everchosen body count, the Empire leads the High Elves 3-1.
(Well, to be fair, Archaon isn't dead, but he was vanquished. That counts, according to the rules... which I've just made up.)
-
Who does the deeming? What authority decides that a given runelord, archmage, or slann is worthy? And what about the authority of the Colleges of Magic?
Not sure if I follow you. Each race sends who they deem worthy. Elves would send Archmage/s, Dwarfs Runelord/s, Lizardmen Slann Priest/s the other races whom they choose. I probably mis presented what I thought.
-
It's starting to look good, Giladis. But will it work? What I mean is, do you really speak for Asur.org or are you just speaking hypothetical. I know that the Asur are firmly in the Dwarf camp at this point so I wonder how readily that your kin would accept this treaty.
-
I'm assuming its a Elf back up plan, just in case things go wrong with the Dwarfs - which has never happend before has it :wink:
-
I have to note once again that a little arrogance of the elves is quite acceptable especially because they HAVE saved the sorry butts of the Humans a couple of times already. Also they will sacrifice themselves if it is neccessary.
The door swings both ways. If not for the Empire, the High Elves would have been destroyed after the Great War Against Chaos, and again after the Storm of Chaos. Aenarion saved the world from Chaos, but both Asavar Kul and Archaon were Everchosen as well, and equally posed a threat to the world. For that matter, didn't Sigmar kill the Everchosen Morkar? In terms of Everchosen body count, the Empire leads the High Elves 3-1.
FVC: You won't get credit from the elves for saving the world from chaos if the war that threatened the world was caused by a human corrupted by chaos. In fact, the elves could reasonably see you and your entire race as a bigger threat than a benefit because of how corruptable you are, but the only way to keep your race under control is to use your race to combat itself.
I'm not saying they are right, I'm just saying that could be their view, and I am sure at least a few of them think that way.
-
I have to note once again that a little arrogance of the elves is quite acceptable especially because they HAVE saved the sorry butts of the Humans a couple of times already. Also they will sacrifice themselves if it is neccessary.
The door swings both ways. If not for the Empire, the High Elves would have been destroyed after the Great War Against Chaos, and again after the Storm of Chaos. Aenarion saved the world from Chaos, but both Asavar Kul and Archaon were Everchosen as well, and equally posed a threat to the world. For that matter, didn't Sigmar kill the Everchosen Morkar? In terms of Everchosen body count, the Empire leads the High Elves 3-1.
FVC: You won't get credit from the elves for saving the world from chaos if the war that threatened the world was caused by a human corrupted by chaos. In fact, the elves could reasonably see you and your entire race as a bigger threat than a benefit because of how corruptable you are, but the only way to keep your race under control is to use your race to combat itself.
Bit of a moot point - after all, much of the HE and DE energy is also spent fighting among themselves. And that the Elves would sacrifice themselves if necessary, is something I also doubt. They might do so to hold back Chaos from conquering the world, but they won't do so to save some humans. They just needed the Empire, that's why they sent help in the great war against chaos and in the SoC.
Giladis, this is indeed starting to look good. I hope we can work something out. Wissenlander makes a good point though: do you speak for all (or at least, most) of the guys at Asur.org? It all seems very reasonable, but then again, I'd never have thought at the beginning of this campaign that the HE's would ally with the dwarfs over us, so... :wink:
-
I can be certain of this at least. Asur.org members will suport an NAP with you as long as GW doesn't announces you contorl the crown and have decided to fidle with it on your own.
The main reason why High Elf players chose Dwarfs before you is because GW told us as players that Empire wants to take possession of it, study it and maybe even use it and we didn't like the sound of that. So when dwarfs came and asked us to help them so that crown doesn't end in your or any other hands but of the "Good" elder races we accepted, though Dwarfs first had to wade through a sea of insults to get the end result.
-
(IC, no insult intended)
Pah. I don't trust these Elves for a second. The Crown was buried on our land, and if we find it, its ours. Like hell are we letting some foreign Elves stop us doing what we want with it. I agree with one thing... we should send this ambassador back to his island with his girls hair shaven and his ears clipped! Who's with me?
Whatever the official decision on this is, I regretfully declare Ostland and General Kurt Luther will not hold a non-aggression pact with Elves of any sort. I beg the Empire officials to reconsider their folly, but if they decide on a non-aggression pact they wont get my support. Unless our Empire depends on it...
I apologise for speaking out against our leaders, but my gut feeling is that the arragont Elves cant be trusted.
(and a regular opponents a high elf player :icon_wink:)
-
I can be certain of this at least. Asur.org members will suport an NAP with you as long as GW doesn't announces you contorl the crown and have decided to fidle with it on your own.
Yes, that seems what I gathered from Asur.org as well. Well, I hope we can work this NAP out.
The main reason why High Elf players chose Dwarfs before you is because GW told us as players that Empire wants to take possession of it, study it and maybe even use it and we didn't like the sound of that. So when dwarfs came and asked us to help them so that crown doesn't end in your or any other hands but of the "Good" elder races we accepted, though Dwarfs first had to wade through a sea of insults to get the end result.
But then again, wouldn't it be better if we help each other as well, giving you a much greater influence to decide what to do with the NC *if* we find it? :wink: Naah, I'm not going to star that argument again. I understand you guys had to make a choice between dwarfs and empire to ally with, and while I still think it's not the most obvious choice you've made, both have arguments pro and contra.
-
I think General Kurt Luther has a point..in not trusting the elves....I think they won´t stick to any agreement. As long they are crawling in the wilderness trying to conquer some stones to summon demons (they propably build in the first place) they are fine...if they come close to settlements building up their fancy dancy silk and satin tents...they are also welcome because they attract beastman ...or so I am told. But if they enter any City of the Empire they will have to leave their weapons outisde like any common person or tradesman.
-
Captain Luitdorf is a military man, has been all his life. No time for petty politics or squabbles. His battalion and himself are currently marching towards the barren hills. Once they reach thier destination, which is only known by the Captain at this time, they will hold come what may. If any opponent dares to cross them they shall be dispatched, ruthlessly and efficiently. This includes elves, dwarves and any other race.
No opponent shall set foot on empire soil and shed the blood of empire men without swift and brutal retribution.
You elves, and all the other races should make note of this.
(This is just me being fluffy btw, but i feel Cpt luitdorf would want his stance to be known :-D)
-
The HE should of asked for the same terms that we are giving the Bretonnians.
-
(IC, no insult intended)
Pah. I don't trust these Elves for a second. The Crown was buried on our land, and if we find it, its ours. Like hell are we letting some foreign Elves stop us doing what we want with it. I agree with one thing... we should send this ambassador back to his island with his girls hair shaven and his ears clipped! Who's with me?
Whatever the official decision on this is, I regretfully declare Ostland and General Kurt Luther will not hold a non-aggression pact with Elves of any sort. I beg the Empire officials to reconsider their folly, but if they decide on a non-aggression pact they wont get my support. Unless our Empire depends on it...
I apologise for speaking out against our leaders, but my gut feeling is that the arragont Elves cant be trusted.
(and a regular opponents a high elf player :icon_wink:)
Watch little keigh-mon that you don't wake one morning. Our agents are legion.
No opponent shall set foot on empire soil and shed the blood of empire men without swift and brutal retribution.
Bwahahahahahaha! Foolish savage. Have you forgoten the that it is easier to catch starlight that bring elves to battle unless they want it.
The HE should of asked for the same terms that we are giving the Bretonnians.
How dare you compare us with some dirty keigh-mon nation. It is insult enough that I have to converese with you in this animalish barking you call language!
OOC: That agreement looks rather complext and way to binding and I doubt any elven commander would want his hands tied that much. If we are to function properly we must be as free as birds :icon_mrgreen:
-
The HE should of asked for the same terms that we are giving the Bretonnians.
*ugh* We're not gouging you, CaptScott. There's no need to be bitter.
Bwahahahahahaha! Foolish savage. Have you forgoten the that it is easier to catch starlight that bring elves to battle unless they want it.
That's from Battlefleet Gothic and it's talking about the Eldar. Eldar starships have the sorts of powers necessary to make that a reasonable statement (in the sense that 1/ the Eldar have been brought to battle before by the Imperium and 2/ it's actually quite easy to catch starlight. That's what solar panels do.), but it doesn't work so well for High Elves, who have been brought to battle against their will many times before. Two examples would be the dwarfs at Tor Alessi and the orc warlord Bruza da Big.
-
FVC, I'm certainly glad to have you around. Would we have the position of the "loremaster", you'd have my vote.
-
That's from Battlefleet Gothic and it's talking about the Eldar. Eldar starships have the sorts of powers necessary to make that a reasonable statement (in the sense that 1/ the Eldar have been brought to battle before by the Imperium and 2/ it's actually quite easy to catch starlight. That's what solar panels do.), but it doesn't work so well for High Elves, who have been brought to battle against their will many times before. Two examples would be the dwarfs at Tor Alessi and the orc warlord Bruza da Big.
Then there's Grom, the various DE invasions and the odd apocalyptic battle against chaos to save the world...
In fact since almost every elf is trained to be part of the "civilian militia" one might assume that the elves are forced to fight a lot more battles than they would like.
All the more reason to try and avoid conflict with a (potential) foe that is willing to come to an agreement not to fight is it not?
-
The HE should of asked for the same terms that we are giving the Bretonnians.
I disagree. The Bretonnians are our allies. We give them the terms based on that.
Elves are not our allies. They want a non-aggression pact and promise to break it when we find the Crown. I do not think we should agree to anything with them. True, a pact would mean one less enemy, but when they do fight us they will be stronger than if we fight them from the start. From the start we need to know who our enemies are and how to deal with them.
This is our homeland, and the soldiers we can supply are limitless. Elves have to ferry soldiers over the sea, alot harder.
Watch little keigh-mon that you don't wake one morning. Our agents are legion.
And Giladis, I would not threaten a lord of the Empire like that. Like I say, I have no qualms about killing you. When war breaks out between our nations, you will be the first to die... 'ambassador'.
-
Well, these negotiations took a turn for the worse (w00t, not a true fan of high elves anyways)
As it currently stands, I vote clip the ambassadors balls ears, shave his head and send him back
Have you guys seen 300? Thats the kind of reception I was thinking of, in terms of how to treat this kind of ambassador... :dry:
-
Looks like Elf season is open!
-
I have to ask, would it really hurt to have one race we are in open war with (intead of the constant war between the usual opponents)
True you can argue, "Like we need another opponent" or "No unwanted bloodshed" but think about it: No unwanted bloodshed doesn't make white dwarf...
I think it would be marginally entertaining to have a race we are in open war with, and failing bugmans brewery...
-
Well, technically we have a nation we are always at war with - Norsca.
-
Having witnessed the treatment that our ambassadors met on some other sites I have to say I'm rather disappointed that we should sink to the same level here.
The object of negotiations is to find common ground and work from there, not to fixate on the differences and state them as reasons for outright hostility.
Ok, so the HE strongly do not want the Empire to gain control of the NC. The fact that they state up front that such an outcome might result in an outbreak of hostility is a sign of honesty, an outcome to be regretted, not a sign to make threats against their ambassador.
I humbly request that we act in a manner befitting intelligent men of the Empire. Let us negotiate in a polite manner and save our belligerence for the battlefield.
As I see it there are a number of areas of common ground.
1. Destruction of the forces of evil. Both sides have in common the desire to destroy the forces of chaos, the undead, the greenskins and all their associated allies and servants.
2. Prevention of the forces of evil from gaining the NC.
3. Minimising the damage to the Empire. Admittedly this is more important to the Empire than the HE, but even the most superior HE will admit the usefullness of the Empire as a bulwark against the incursions of chaos.
For our own part there is nothing to gain from fighting the HE. What territory can we gain? What spoils are there to be had?
Fighting an interracial war due to pride is a mistake that the "Elder" races have made, we can avoid that mistake.
-
Hear hear! Clausewitz, you are absolutely right.
Having witnessed the treatment that our ambassadors met on some other sites I have to say I'm rather disappointed that we should sink to the same level here.
And especially on that one... I still have nightmares from those dwarfs. :wink:
We can gain nothing by fighting HE's. Maybe a NAP isn't too bad then, huh? Yes, under certain terms it may be broken - but it's better than no NAP at all. Let's do the things together as long as we can, and solve our differences later.
-
IC. My Dear Brothers of the Faith! I know I have not been among you for long, but I have seen enough to tell that all of you are proud, upstanding, good men of the Empire, and of Sigmar. May his guiding light be with us in these dark times.
It is true that the Elves that call themselves "High" have been at our aid in the past. Many times would our glorious empire have fallen if not for their assistance. I myself am a proud man, and I think that we should repay our depts.
It is also true, however, that they had something to gain from all said assistance, which brings their motives into question. Did they do it out of compassion, and a desire to help fellow warriors in the struggle against chaos? Or did they do it for more selfish reasons? Did they render assistance, because it aided them as much as us? I am no Mind Reader, just a Priest, but I think the answer has already been ascertained.
The motives behind the aid should not be in question. Just the aid itself. The aid should count for something, but not everything. Safe passage through our lands maybe could maybe be one such somethings......I am no diplomat, I know little of the worth of such things.
In finishing, I say let them have safe passage, but anyone who strikes the first blow, be it orc, man, elf or dwarf, my hammer will taste their blood. I, Mark Von Elohir, Warrior Priest of his most holy Sigmar, will defend my land, and my congregation if it comes to it, and by Sigmar, my hammer will taste much.
OOC. They helped us, that should count for something, but if they tell you to take a jump to the left, and a step to right, and you do it, then before you know it, you're doing the time warp. My point, is, don't lay down before them, give them safe passage.
But if they attack, or make any other silly demands(all men in the presence of an elf must wear latex pointy ears....)unleash hell, but if they don't, let them walk. In conclusion, I'm in favour of a NAP. However, if we do get it, (which I don't think is a possibility with a NAP) I don't like the whole, "Gimme gimme gimme" thing the Eldar races have got. I like the council of the wise thing.....
-
Well, somewhere on this topic, the High Elf ambassador did compromise:
"Agreeable under one condition that you do not study the crown before the Council is convened, upon the council you will be allowed to petition for a combined study conducted by the finest Runelords, Archmages, Slann Priest and who ever other representatives deem worthy to send."
So, it seems that they no longer believe in the crowns outright destruction, but rather now have moved to a similar point of view of us: a council. This, in itself is more common ground.
Ok, lets look at what people want (guessing on the HE part)
Empire: Help, one less enemy, (no enemies, but that's not gonna happen), council, studying the crown.
HE: one less enemy, NAP, council.
Of course, we already have the concession for studying it (people from other races must be there also). One less enemy is common ground, the NAP doesn't fulfill "Help" though comes close to doing so, and its better to have someone you won't fight by your side than another person in front of you, fighting.
Looking at his terms proposed:
1. Pretty obvious for a NAP.
2. His comment on wiss' comment is ominous. "for possible elven colonist for Athel Loren and Avelorn" As the Great Forest is in the Empire, I am unsure why we should allow our land to be colonized without our agreement, or even foreknowledge! But, the fact that there will be less Daemons or Undead is still good.
3. Will, we don't consider the dwarfs as our main enemy anyway, there are the forces of evil.
4. I'm just wondering if this is combined with 3, would it read:
"Don't face dwarfs as your main enemy, but if they attack you, we will help" ?
5. I think we have a good compromise here. It is studied, but with representatives of all 'good' people.
Imperial points:
1. Coordination with Imperial officials, this is so we know where you will be, s we aren't surprised, and doesn't lead to an attack.
IC: I have also heard that all elves look similar, without this coordination, how would we tell the difference between you and the rest of the elves?
2. Studying it: Your counter-offer was only if during in the council, and with representatives of other races involved, I think those are agreeable.
3. (Mine, this is what I meant about including Marienburg) If any human army moves against Marienburg, then elven trading will not be impinged by new ownership, unless they aid its defense.
-
Just to make one think clear since I wouldn't like you agreeming to something without fully understanding it and later feeling cheated.
Well, somewhere on this topic, the High Elf ambassador did compromise:
"Agreeable under one condition that you do not study the crown before the Council is convened, upon the council you will be allowed to petition for a combined study conducted by the finest Runelords, Archmages, Slann Priest and who ever other representatives deem worthy to send."
So, it seems that they no longer believe in the crowns outright destruction, but rather now have moved to a similar point of view of us: a council. This, in itself is more common ground.
"Agreeable under one condition that you do not study the crown before the Council is convened, upon the council you will be allowed to petition for a combined study conducted by the finest Runelords, Archmages, Slann Priest and who ever other representatives deem worthy to send."
I emphasised the bold part since 3 out of 6 races are pretty clear on what to do with the Crown, destroy it. Wood Elves are inclined on the destruction while the BRetonnians have to report their stance.
His comment on wiss' comment is ominous. "for possible elven colonist for Athel Loren and Avelorn" As the Great Forest is in the Empire, I am unsure why we should allow our land to be colonized without our agreement, or even foreknowledge! But, the fact that there will be less Daemons or Undead is still good.
Why ominous? Change of creatures that inhabit the forest from Greenskins and Beastmen to Elves can only be a good thing, especialy since you do not inhabit the said forest in any meaningful number.
4. I'm just wondering if this is combined with 3, would it read:
"Don't face dwarfs as your main enemy, but if they attack you, we will help" ?
Only if we deem that their offensive agaisnt you might threaten the world balance.
1. Coordination with Imperial officials, this is so we know where you will be, s we aren't surprised, and doesn't lead to an attack.
Agreeable under condition these are members of the collegues of magic since theys seam most educated and refined.
3. (Mine, this is what I meant about including Marienburg) If any human army moves against Marienburg, then elven trading will not be impinged by new ownership, unless they aid its defense.
As far as the Twin Thrones are concerned the Elves of Marienburgh are out side the jurisdiction of the Burghmaister and the soil of the Elven quarter is considered soverign terriotry of the Elven Empire.
-
I emphasised the bold part since 3 out of 6 races are pretty clear on what to do with the Crown, destroy it. Wood Elves are inclined on the destruction while the BRetonnians have to report their stance.
We don't know what it does. For what I hope is the final time, our stance is and has always been to give it to the Fay Enchantress if we get it. What she will do with it we do not know, but shall respect her (i.e. GW's) decision as the will of the Lady.
Regarding all this politicking over it, from an IC perspective remember that Bretonnia does not know what the Crown is. Some of our commanders and nobles may have heard of it, and be aware that there is some extremely powerful dwarfen artifact in the Great Forest which has caused the conflict, but we don't know what it is or what it does. We'd just give it to the Fay because that's what we do whenever we find an extremely powerful and dangerous artifact. If the Empire, or the Great Dwarf Alliance for that matter, was to call a council of the wise, we would attend and make our decision based upon the evidence presented at that council.
As far as the Twin Thrones are concerned the Elves of Marienburgh are out side the jurisdiction of the Burghmaister and the soil of the Elven quarter is considered soverign terriotry of the Elven Empire.
Empire? Since when have you had an empire?
-
I thought you had a King, therefore surely Kingdom
-
@ Gildas:
Indeed, I was commenting on the fact you said "upon the council", and believed that you had changed to believing that a council would work better than outright destruction. Am I wrong on that point?
Ominous in the fact that you have talked about colonization without council, no offense, but if something is going to move into the Empire, we'd like to know. However, you do make a good point that elves in this region would help decrease the amount of other, more hostile races.
I'm not sure what you mean by world balance.
I see nothing wrong with the colleges of magic comment.
According to my spies (Sold Down the River :icon_wink:) it is considered as belonging to the Sea Elves, who answer to the Phoenix King. Apparently. I didn't mean taking that away. I meant that there will be no effect on trading imposed by us, unless the Elves oppose the Empire if an attempt to take Marienburg is made.
Though, of course I only speak for myself.
-
There is a Council of the Wise and Powerful that is being offered to members of the GDA. How will this work into our already established fluff objective of a Concil of the Wise? Will we be invited to said council? Or are we being played both ends against the middle?
-
Empire? Since when have you had an empire?
I thought you had a King, therefore surely Kingdom.
Though it sounds strange we have a Phoenix King that rules the Elven Empire.
I'm not sure what you mean by world balance.
You know world peace, fight agaisnt famine and global weather changes :icon_mrgreen:
A considerably weekened Empire is no good for either us or the Dwarfs so if they press to much on you we might be inclined to stand by you to persuade them against furtehr contraproductive destruction.
There is a Council of the Wise and Powerful that is being offered to members of the GDA. How will this work into our already established fluff objective of a Concil of the Wise? Will we be invited to said council? Or are we being played both ends against the middle?
As far as I am getting itThe CotW will meet if Bretonians or Empire find the crown to discuss how to deal with it, there you will be able to pettition for its study. The CotWaP is gathering with the goal of destroying the crown. If you or the Bretonnians find the crown should the CotW decide upon Crowns destruction will do it. Should High Elves, Lizardmen or Dwarfs find the crown the CotWaP will gather to destroy the crown without having council with you beforehand.
-
Something for the elfs to consider...
Objective - Thorgrim seeks to recover the Nemesis Crown and lock it away deep beneath Karaz-a-Karak. In so doing, he will cross out one of the oldest entries in the Great Book of Grudges and redeem Alaric of his folly in creating the Crown so long ago. With every Dwarf victory, this noble end is advanced.
It seems the dwarfs have glossed over this clearly stated part of their objectives in their negotiations with both the High Elves and the Lizardmen.
While we of the Empire have been severely hampered by the GW-led idea that Karl Franz wants to test the crown for..
If proven safe, such a powerful device could be harnessed for the good of the Empire..
Which has resulted in the Empire being mistrusted by the elfs and lizardmen, for whom destruction is the goal.
Our offer of a Council of the Wise seems like a very reasonable interpretation of how we can achieve our set goals and yet act honourably towards our allies* (*or friends or potential or past allies, whatever).
Whereas the dwarfs seem to have changed their objectives (or have they?!? :icon_eek: ). Will the Asur be dissappointed if their help ensures the dwarfs win but the crown is then taken back to Karaz-a-Karak and NOT destroyed?
This part of the High Elf objective is rather interesting too..
Perhaps the aid of the High Elves might convince the powerful Empire to ally with them in the future
So according to GW the High Elves are at least somewhat interested in the Empire as a military ally.
That said I am not challenging the decision of Asur.org to join the Grand Dwarf Alliance. But I hope to stir some thoughts that might lead to greater cooperation with the Empire.
-
Oh, but clausewitz, the noble Asur have given the answer to that problem before. If the dwarfs keep the crown, they will just conquer Karaz-A-Karak. And how convenient, they will get the Phoenix Crown as well by this. Should be a piece of cake.
Thanks for digging those references up. Apparently, the HE would benefit greatly from an alliance: they would learn much about the fluff they didn't care to read before allying with the dwarfs...
-
Oh, but clausewitz, the noble Asur have given the answer to that problem before. If the dwarfs keep the crown, they will just conquer Karaz-A-Karak. And how convenient, they will get the Phoenix Crown as well by this.
I think you may have just hit the nail on the head of the true nature of the HE and dwarf alliance, thought not as you may have put it.
What if .. their has been some ... yet unrevealed talks between the HE and dwarfs .. in the nature that the Dwarfs get to store away the Nemesis crown .. and in exchange the HE get their beloved lost Phoenix crown.
So, If the situation is decided that the NM crown is to be indeed be destoyed .. i repose that the Cotw (with represenatives from each of the good races, not excluding empire and brets) over sees the destruction of said crown. So there is no chance of the dwarfs hording it away.
-
No chance of trading of the crowns. I think that topic was talked about but quickly shot down.
-
No chance of trading of the crowns. I think that topic was talked about but quickly shot down.
:icon_twisted: A clever rouse set by the HE and dwarfs to mislead us ~nods solemonly~ :eusa_wall:
-
No chance of trading of the crowns. I think that topic was talked about but quickly shot down.
:icon_twisted: A clever rouse set by the HE and dwarfs to mislead us ~nods solemonly~ :eusa_wall:
Actually blame GW for that one...
or the Dwarfs to return to them the long-lost Phoenix Crown.
The dwarfs were quite happy to let that persaude the elfs, though any kind of crown for a crown exchange was vetoed.
-
I apologise for such a long pause but I believed that it was necesary.
Clausewitz HE are aware of the objectives GW placed before the Dwarfs, but we and the Dwarfs signed an alliance in stone and as far as I am aware GW global co-ordinator has been made aware of it.
Should they break that oath by taking the Crown to K-a-K the will become worse than us in the eyes of other Dwarfs and we would emediatly strike against them, before they even start moving out of the Empire. I sencerely hope it will not ocme to it.
About allying we had 3 option.
You
Dwarfs
On our Own
And the Asur.org members decided that going with the Dwarfs is a lesser of 3 evils.
OT: I went to check how long Empire was in civil war and anarchy and it was from 1152 to 2303 and it is 45.6% so I owe you an apologie about the remar that you were 3/4 of your time in civil war.
So Wissenlander shall we continue the negotations.
-
I like the proposal of
- If the Empire or the Bretons find the crown they can join the council and vote for its destruction
- If the other "good" races find the crown they will utterly destroy it without any talk of the Kingdoms of men.
Well the one major point is that the crown can't be destroyed as stated in the fluff look at this:
"Alaric was horrified by what he had created, but he knew that the crown could not be destroyed. He resolved to hide it away. "
from gw nemesis crown site
-
- If the Empire or the Bretons find the crown they can join the council and vote for its destruction
If the Bretonnians find the Crown, there will be no council and neither you nor the High Elves will have to worry about anything.
Well the one major point is that the crown can't be destroyed as stated in the fluff look at this:
"Alaric was horrified by what he had created, but he knew that the crown could not be destroyed. He resolved to hide it away. "
from gw nemesis crown site
Because Alaric was renowned for his sanity and ability to make an unbiased assessment of a situation unclouded by emotion, wasn't he? I distrust anything he says on general principle.
-
Well done Clauswitz, it would appear that the GDA is based on an even thinner tissue of lies. But at least the GW moderator has been told, I'm sure he will listen to this, I have just sent off my request that all empire soldiers become Immune to Psychology, etherial, cold blooded and always strike first so I'm sure that will happen soon as well! I'm sure GW are sensible enough to realise that it is so badly out of character for the dwarves and goes against the fluff for the campaign and our global police force will be empty handed.
I'm not sure what you mean by world balance.
You know world peace, fight agaisnt famine and global weather changes :icon_mrgreen:
A considerably weekened Empire is no good for either us or the Dwarfs so if they press to much on you we might be inclined to stand by you to persuade them against furtehr contraproductive destruction.
I am sure that the Asur see themselves as a global police, despite the fact it is utterly untrue. Yes, they helped the Empire against chaos, well I say they did but in point of fact it was 4 elves going against all the other elves. In reality the elves as they currently stand are a dying race still struggling fighting their own civil war against the Druchii and their rightful king (by bloodline only, I am not saying it would have been a good thing if he became king), I hope for your sake that the new edition army book provides some raison-de-etre other than hiding on an island with a haughty nature.
-
So, what would you like to discuss? :-D
I'm not sure where we can go with the council. We've both got our own version, only we'll invite you to ours if we find the crown.
Coordination between High Elf forces and Imperial forces should be included if we are to avoid conflict.
NAP based upon the need to fight the evil races.
I recall you mentioning something about you jumping sides if the Dwarfs get a bit too agressive. Care to elaborate?
-
What a bunch of seditious prattling I've read so far. Some are even considering investing so much to locate this priceless artifact only to destroy it? And my fellow lords are humoring this position with politic? The 'elders' may wish this campaign to end in a boring and superficial way but we men of the Empire are willing to take risks in the necessary pursuit of progress and development of our nation, which doesn't have the luxury of hiding underground or on a sequestered island against the forces of Oblivion. We are thinking creatures, constantly inventing and broadening our abilities, and ultimately the only hope the world has when you consider the steady decline of the stagnant-minded elders. Furthermore we are men of honor, duty bound to the will of our duly elected Emperor, who has given forth a command that carries an authority for each of us that no alien council can supercede.
If the elder juggernaught wishes to interfere, let them come. These are Imperial lands, and we will meet them here. If we win, all the more glory for Humanity.
(OOC: I'd give it to Chaos before such an uninspired fate as simply destroying it.)
-
I think a very simple agreement is needed to insure mutual success. We do not target intentionaly your forces and you do not ours. In addition to it we discuss where each will be striking so that we do not clog locations but rather maximise the numbers we have by hitting a single location.
Elves will protect men of the empire from the "evil" races if your soldiers aren't there to do so.
I recall you mentioning something about you jumping sides if the Dwarfs get a bit too agressive. Care to elaborate?
Should the actions of the Dwarfs cause that your position after the war is such that your land would be over ran by brigands and worse evils we would either frist warn them and then strike but sincerely I hope I doesn't come to that as both sides will have enough "evil" enemies to fight during the campaign.
Some are even considering investing so much to locate this priceless artifact only to destroy it?
Yes. It is made out of solidifed Dhar it has no place in this world.
Now I want you to give me an anwser, but think carefully about it before you post it.
What oath have Dwarfs broken towards you?
As far as I am aware Dwarfs have the right of free pasage throughout the Empire. They moved in and on some road your troops came upon theirs. You told the dwarfs to clear the rode, usualy telling dwarfs to do something is a bad thing because they do not react well on orders unles it is by their leaders. They didn't even say no, but just remained motionles and you attacked them. So who started the hostilities? The Dwarfs by standing still on a road or you charging them?
-
Everyone brings up that one point. Yes, there was an attack on a road somewhere in the Empire, GW fluff. GW fluff also says that the Dwarfs refused to tell their allies anything and their ambassadors left. If anything, we're at equal fault in this whole stupid mess.
I and others have been trying to work with the Dwarf forum at Bugman's from the beginning with little to no success. Considering the 'close ties' that our races have had and the sudden change of heart by the Dwarfs is where people start using the oath breaking conotation.
Even though we've basically stated that we can't really work together, we still try to be civil and not fight them for as long as possible, but even that seems to be getting pushed aside with talks of Exiles and our forces making surprise attacks out of the forest. These are hardly things that would indicate mutual support for 2500 years, a longer time than this crown has even existed.
With that, I agree that we should try and avoid conflict with each other if nothing else. I started another poll to get everyone's opinon on it so we can keep things clear. It's hard to discuss terms when people are expressing their opinions about the Elven race.
-
Perhaps we should hand the Crown ...in case of finding to a Halfling....
Fredo...you have to take a great responsibility cause only your race can withstand the corrupting Power of the Nemesis Crown. You will wield the ultimate power over ALL Halflings on the whole Warhammer world and will forge them to an unstoppable fighting force for the Empire.
-
But Randalf, I don't want to leave the Moot!
-
I think a very simple agreement is needed to insure mutual success. We do not target intentionaly your forces and you do not ours. In addition to it we discuss where each will be striking so that we do not clog locations but rather maximise the numbers we have by hitting a single location.
Elves will protect men of the empire from the "evil" races if your soldiers aren't there to do so.
This seems like an excellent place to start.
I acknowledge that the Empire and High Elves don't have the same campaign goals, so a full alliance seems improbable.
But both sides can appreciate the advantages of minimising conflict between us. And maintaining the long term goal of cooperation against the forces of evil.
As Giladis suggests..
- No deliberate targetting of Imperial forces by the Asur.
- No deliberate targetting of Asur forces by the Empire.
- The Asur agree to protect Imperial citizens where no Empire military forces are present to do so.
And if I may suggest..
- The Asur and Imperial forces will support one another in any battle fought against the forces of evil*
*Mortal, Beast or Demonic forces of Chaos, Greenskins, Druchi, Skaven and all forms of undead.
Giladis, does this meet your approval?
Please note I have quite deliberately avoided any mention of the NC. As I have mentioned the Empire and HE objectives for the NC are not currently compatible. The idea behind this agreement is to minimise immediate losses to Empire and HE military forces from unnecessary battles, to further protect Imperial citizens and to maintain reasonable relations with fellow "conclave of light" nations.
For all that the Empire goals suggest that Karl Franz wants to find the crown there is nothing suggesting that he would wish to undo his hard work keeping the Empire safe from its traditional foes.
-
These four points are agreeable.
I will not cosult the rest of the Asur council and the respons will soon follow.
-
One moment, I have a question: Will Asurian forces be protecting Imperial Citizens from more than evil armies? Will they also protect them against dwarfs? If not, then I don't think any good will be coming from this treaty.
-
I think its fair to say that the Asur would probably intervene if the dwarves were planning on wholesale slaughter of Imperial citizens.
It's fair to say that this would be circumstancial.
If a bunch of angry villagers refuse to let the dwarfs pass and the dwarfs are "forced" to use force on them the Asur may not intervene.
If the same villagers ran away or hid in their houses but the dwarves planned to kill them anyway then the Asur would (I imagine) council them against this and take no part in it.
But if the dwarves threaten Imperial citizens then it's really the dwarfs that are to blame, not the Asur for not stopping them.
Same scenario but with Skaven/Orcs/Chaos/Undead/etc threatening the villagers then the Asur have said they would intervene.
This is a positive outcome. Especially as the risk to the citizenry is far greater when dealing with the forces of evil. I would not expect any of the "good" races to be targetting Imperial citizens and settlements. We know for a fact that some of the evil ones are (O&G in particular).