Topic: Envoy form beyond the Sea

[Sterling Bloodprint]

You do not violate someone else's territory, and you certainly do not claim that you have the right to because you're an 'elder race' and they're not.

I agree with you... The empire is being wronged by the dwarves. However, the dwarves don't feel they have a choice in the matter... and from their point of view, they are doing what they must not only for themselves, but to aid the empire.

those two forces are in a very difficult position for allies to be in, and in that I applaud GW for this particular set up. If only they had given the same thought to some of the other races

[FVC]

I agree with you there. It's great to see a campaign that doesn't revolve around the axiomatic good/evil struggle, but is much more complex and morally ambiguous. Both the dwarf players and Empire players can OOC think they're the side of 'good', which makes it an interesting conflict and, for me, the best part of the entire campaign.

That said, the other armies' motivations are pretty thin. Orcs and Goblins boils down to 'they're fighting again, let's smash some heads', which is what they always did anyway. Vampire Counts are too busy crying about the death of Mannfred to actually read their story. Lizardmen have the generic 'preserve the Old Ones' plan' motivation again. Dark Elves are raiding... yet again. Skaven are stealing precious warpstone, wow, who'd have seen that one coming. And so on. None of those are really interesting from a narrative perspective.

On that note, I applaud what you've done with ogres. Their stock motivation is pretty boring, but you've really improved on that by getting in there. It's interesting to see the dwarfs hiring them. Some people, like me for example, would think that's dishonourable and exposes the dwarfs as hypocrites, but they don't think that. That sort of conflict is great because not only do both sides think they're right IC, but OOC both players can seriously argue that their army is in the right. (I mean, in contrast, Malekith is in a strict legal sense the rightful king of Ulthuan, but I've never met a Dark Elf player who doesn't think his army is evil.)

[CaptScott]

I'm sorry if I stood on anybody's toes with my postings at Asur.org.  I was going to post a summary of my talks here after my final posting but this thread was created first.  I got a positive response when I posted my original submission here, but as Jerok was still in discussion with his diplomats I posted it with the signature CaptScott - An independant voice for the Empire, so I would not come accross as completely official.  There ended up being a total of four main postings, and if you are interested please go over to Asur.org and read them (the third page in the 'Greatings from the Empire' thread).  I think I raised some very valid arguments, but the High Elves seem to be set in their position.

The main points I argued were as follows.

-Karl Franz seeks to study the Crown, and will  destroy it if necessary
-the Empire would be a good place for all nations to come together to decide the fate of the Crown, and that the HE would pe perfect to assist us in this endeavour.
-study and carful consideration are characteristics of the Asur, not the  rash actions of dwarves
-For the Empire no real evidence exists to say the crown is evil.  (I'm still not sure that I acccept that "we feel it is evil"  is an adequate argument)  I can just picture some gummy ol' elf sitting on a rocking chair muttering "it's evil I tells' ya, I feel it in me bones..."
-can the dwarves be trusted, they made the crown
-once the dwarves have the crown will they listen to the Asur, or will they act as they see fit.
-any conflict between our races could represent a larger evil than what the Asur believe to be contained in the crown.
-conflict should be avoided where possible.
-the 'evil' forces will see no distinction between our races.  Divided we are weak, united we are strong.

By the way, I have really enjoyed Giladis's posts, very IC for an Elven commander.  Additionally as I said before, an agreement between all the elder races is very fluffy, and I support them for it.

Their still may be a solution however.  Perhaps a 'real life' gentlemens agreement can be put in place with both the High elves and the Dwarves.  We could simply suggest that at gaming events/clubs etc for the duration of the campaign where possible our forces will not fight each other.  For example if there is a choice between an orc and high elf opponent, we choose the orc.  We could also work this into some form of fluff agreement/treaty.  Above all this in some small way would act towards ensuring that at least the dwarves or the Empire win the campaign (though I still think that the orcs winning could be fun, just imagine the WAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!!!)

[Fandir Nightshade]

The problem I see here is that the dwarves don't act because of sense or valor....they act out of shame. The shame that something they have done could come up perhaps the crown isn't evil but just hold a dark secret of the dwarves. Why shouldn't they talk about it otherwise. Also a dwarf NEVER is sorry for any of his actions...if they would feel any guilt we will have a slayer boom after the war but nothing like an apology.

I would like to see some High Elves led by Teclis or a surge of Seeguard under the overall command of Finubar. Cause even it is royal elfish to see the empire as "meatshield" perhaps with some sort of peace between the Asur and Man there could be talk about invading Naggaroth with the help of the Empire.

(how about shaving the head of the elven ambassador or clipping his ears?)

[Giladis]

(how about shaving the head of the elven ambassador or clipping his ears?)

Now that would be a thing to see 


Some asked for page references: HE AB - 61, 62   EM AB - 66 the reference from 6th ed RB is somewhere in the background section, it even comes with a picture of the battle, I can't give the exact page number cause I don't have the RB at the moment where I am.


Another good explanation on what High Elfs are is this. High Elves have the same capricious mentaliy as the Wood Elves with the difference they consider the entire world as their responsibilitie rather than just one forest.


I think the Empire players are forgeting that their land is built on the land that both Elves and Dwarfs consider theirs but are allowing you to live there because they currently don't have the strength to protect agaisnt Orc/Beastmen etc. When they march though the Empire they don't feel inclined to report anything to anyone for wouldn't it be strange to ask someone else to allow you to move over somethin that is "yours".

Elves of Marienburgh and the few those that can be found elsewhere in the old world should not be seen as whatching humans with respect but more in a way how we watch a pack of apes with interests. After all they are merchants and as long as profitable trade can be achieved everyone except Orcs/Choas/Undead/DRuchii is a viable customer.


Someone asked what if Dwarfs took the Crown and refused to give it for destruction. Than they would be called oath breakers their entire race disgraced and a mighty host of High Elves, LIzardmen and all other willing to accompany us before their gates.


To an elf there is no question about the Crown,. It is made out of solidified True Dark Magic aka Wyrdstone/Warpstone. It corrupts everything in its vicinity just some races are more ressistant to it or are affected differently. It is the stuff of Chaos and to a High Elf it has no place in this world no matter for its possibile positive affects (the person wearing it will get command over his entire race).


High Elves are not pawns of the Dwarfs in this matter in spite contrary belief. We have our own agendas but through weighting pros and cons we decided helping the Dwarfs would be more beneficial to us in the future than helping you.

Had we gone with you against the Dwarfs we would harm our relations (that have slowly been geting better and better) with the dwarfs for another few thousand years. On the other hand most Empire people will not know apart from odd legends what occuerd in 3 or 4 centuries (1/5 of an average elven lifetime) and when Chaos rises its uglly head once more. Elves will come to help you win the day as we did before. Buissness as usual.


Oh! The insolence! You dare threaten and insult Us! Was it not for our grace there would be no Empire. What would happen should we decide to rob your mages of their power or for the Dwarfs to stop making arms and armours for your warriors. You would become no better than you western kin, pawns of the sylvan folk!

From this rude and guttural sounds you call "language" I managed, though my ears aked from it, to understand what you say. You object us that we chose Dwarfs over you and from your frenzied behaviour I see that no words can explain it to you. So I will put it like it. The circle of fortune, goes round and round, never stoping. Today we shall stand by the Dwarfs against you, tomorrow it can be the oposite.

The council of our Loremasters saw that you wish to study the cursed object of dwarven folly and pride and we cannot allow anyone to do so. All that wish and proclaim that will be considered as declaring war upon the Twin Thrones.

Once more I offer you a chance for salvation and survival. Stay away! Protect your homes from the evils that rise in the land and make way for us to undo the Crown. If you shall act as said no harm will come to you, but if you would obstruct our mission your armies shall be laid waste.


OOC:

I talked with Wissenlander on Asur.org and the Elven nation is willing to offer you a treaty that could be called Non-agression.
1. Do not attack us and we shall not attack you.
2. Leave our buissness alone unless you are invided to them for the end result will benefit you in the form of preventing summonings of the Undead and Daemons in the region.
3. Do not attack the Dwarfs as your main enemy and we shall not interfere in occassional skirmishes between you two.
4. Should Dwarfs come to strongly against you and we deem that by doing so they are risking the balance of the world you may expect our support.
5. Do not try to study the Crown should it fall in your possession.

I offer you to name 3 terms of the agreement of your own to be added to the treaty.


All the best

Giladis

   

[Fandir Nightshade]

I again good elf can speak only for myself because my rank is low in the military of the forces of the empire. I am a humble defender of the faith in Sigmar. I will tell you this from my point of view...at least in my eyes it is clear that none of my soldiers or of the militia I recruited in the Räuberthal will ever do any harm to any of the great elder races without any provocation. There are already countless enemies in the area. But because you seem not to be obliged to our laws you won't share the hospitality of my fire and my food. No Dwarf or Elf will get anything from me I will stand aside if I see your armies in peril and I will defend myself and all humans of the Empire and Bretonnia if I see them attacked by dwarves or elves. If I catch any of you scouts foraging in the Räuberthal he will be hung as a Brigand. I therefore have nothing to say to you good lord *bows his head* I will leave now and prepare my troops to fight the evil that has come to OUR land....no matter what shapes it comes in

[Veldemere]

How frightfully kind of you and the Dwarves to allow us humble little man things to play on your land these past 3000 years, yes'm sir we will humbly roll over now you want to come back.

Or, I tell you what, if any of your forces in The Barren Hills do not make better representation you will be considered invaders. I have faith that Wissenlander can bring us closer to the NAP but if not I will not deliberately target an Asur but would lose no sleep over the corpses of your dying race.

Oh, by the way Ulthan belongs to the primordeal soup from which you evolved and it would like it back, do you mind just leaving please!

[Warlord]

I think the Empire players are forgeting that their land is built on the land that both Elves and Dwarfs consider theirs but are allowing you to live there because they currently don't have the strength to protect agaisnt Orc/Beastmen etc. When they march though the Empire they don't feel inclined to report anything to anyone for wouldn't it be strange to ask someone else to allow you to move over somethin that is "yours".

The beauty of that statement, is that we consider it ours also. And with that same logic, if we were to witness an army traversing across our land without any indication of intent, I find no reason for Imperial forces not to engage them. We apes can't tell the difference between High Elves and Dark Elves if both show equal malice and indifference. We are after all just trying to defend our land from the forces of evil.

Someone asked what if Dwarfs took the Crown and refused to give it for destruction. Than they would be called oath breakers their entire race disgraced and a mighty host of High Elves, LIzardmen and all other willing to accompany us before their gates.

You mean like the oaths they are currently breaking?

And do you seriously tell me that a High Elf host would even bother leaving your little island? Like you did for the Phoenix crown? You did real well then, didn't you. Besides, any hint of more than a couple of of waships leaving your homeland, Malekith and the entire force of the Dark Elves will wipe you off the face of the Warhammer world.

To an elf there is no question about the Crown,. It is made out of solidified True Dark Magic aka Wyrdstone/Warpstone. It corrupts everything in its vicinity just some races are more ressistant to it or are affected differently. It is the stuff of Chaos and to a High Elf it has no place in this world no matter for its possibile positive affects (the person wearing it will get command over his entire race).

There is no way for you to know that. Or anyone. There has been no study by any race on this item, the only reason we know ANYTHING about it is because GW provided it to us as players. No one knows anything. Alaric was the only one, and he has long been passed away. There are stories, but these are no different than any other fable.

High Elves are not pawns of the Dwarfs in this matter in spite contrary belief. We have our own agendas but through weighting pros and cons we decided helping the Dwarfs would be more beneficial to us in the future than helping you.

Regardless of what you believe your positioning is, you exhibit little to the contrary. Besides, the one dimensional nature of your support is somewhat off. If you truly wished to prevent evil taking the crown, you would not care who aided you. Humans, Dwarves and Elves are all equally corruptible.

Had we gone with you against the Dwarfs we would harm our relations (that have slowly been geting better and better) with the dwarfs for another few thousand years.

Again, I see no evidence of this, and you will NEVER get back the phoenix crown. Long ago, I suggested that you ally with us, so that you could use the Nemesis crown as an item to exchange for your crown, but allying with the enemy will not assist you in reclaiming your prize.

Oh, and Welcome to the Forum 

[FVC]

I think the Empire players are forgeting that their land is built on the land that both Elves and Dwarfs consider theirs but are allowing you to live there because they currently don't have the strength to protect agaisnt Orc/Beastmen etc. When they march though the Empire they don't feel inclined to report anything to anyone for wouldn't it be strange to ask someone else to allow you to move over somethin that is "yours".

This would be the double standard that I, and I am sure others as well, find so offensive. How do they justify that belief? It's arrogance, pure and simple. It's easy to portray the Nemesis Crown campaign in an ideological light, the 'let's have the human race stand up and assert its power, no longer to be the pawn of races who claim to be older and wiser' light.

Oh! The insolence! You dare threaten and insult Us! Was it not for our grace there would be no Empire. What would happen should we decide to rob your mages of their power or for the Dwarfs to stop making arms and armours for your warriors. You would become no better than you western kin, pawns of the sylvan folk!

We are pawns to no elves of the forest, High Elf! We serve the Lady of the Lake, she who embodies the land of Bretonnia and guides our blades. The Lady is not some elven trick - that you would dare to claim such is evidence of how arrogant you have grown in your foolishness. She is representative of the defiant spirit of justice and honour that all true sons of Bretonnia hold to their breast, and you could learn much from her about concepts such as loyalty and respect for your allies.

(In fairness, I hold to the theory that the Lady is Isha, and vice versa. I don't think either personality is necessarily dominant, they're just two different guises under which the same spirit is worshipped, and each is equally true. In that light, elves are good and all, and I do think the Wood Elves played a role in allowing the Lady to reach her current prominence. Despite their attempts at manipulation, though, I do think the Lady Isha harbours a genuine love for Bretonnia and Bretonnians, just as she does for the forests and the elves. That they fight each other would surely sadden her. Still, IC, I don't know that.)

[Fandir Nightshade]

What we never should forget is that we owe the High Elves a lot. Without their sacrifice on the isle of dead and aenarion the world would be in peril. This said I think we should speak to wiser elves than this... so called ambassador. Lets send envoys to Finubar and Teclis. Lets give all Elves on imperial soil advantages in trade and hospitality and show them that we are in no way either so arrogant as some of their kind or stubbern and filled with vengance than the dwarves. I actually have very good trade relations with a band of Shadow Warriors of Nargarythe and they are noble and intelligent. Let us not jump to the bait of insults of this lowly elf for in my eyes he only can be an envoy from the druchii.

[Giladis]

This would be the double standard that I, and I am sure others as well, find so offensive. How do they justify that belief? It's arrogance, pure and simple. It's easy to portray the Nemesis Crown campaign in an ideological light, the 'let's have the human race stand up and assert its power, no longer to be the pawn of races who claim to be older and wiser' light.

I do not need to justify it, that is what High Elfs are, arrogant as hell.

Humans, Dwarves and Elves are all equally corruptible.

Not true. The best example are the Druchii annointed. Several thousand years in chaos wastes and they got different skin coloration. When it goes on the level of coruptability to chaos it is like this. Lizardmen/Orcs - Elves/Halflings - Ogres/Dwarfs - Men.

Again, I see no evidence of this, and you will NEVER get back the phoenix crown. Long ago, I suggested that you ally with us, so that you could use the Nemesis crown as an item to exchange for your crown, but allying with the enemy will not assist you in reclaiming your prize.

Actually we no longer whant the Phoenix Crown as it would only reminds us of our past failiures.

Oh, and Welcome to the Forum 

Thanks

[Ostermarker]

As with the rest of your precious Elder Races, you are a fool. You would turn against those who seek your help. I personally care nothing for this crown. But in the attitude of you and the Dwarfs, I will fight against that. This is our land, you were our friends. Now, that you come mincing into our land, without permission, armed for war, then war you shall have.

IC, I'm a very loud and ulrican fighty guy.

HEAB: On 61, I see nothing of fights between the Empire and HE.

62: Now, something interesting, HE land on beaches by an Imperial coastal village North of Salzemund. Having never seen an elf before, they are naturally worried. When two regiments of soldiers turn up, they find no sign of them, or a temple of Ulric, simply an obelisk. The regiments are not found, but the report is attached to a tree by an arrow of mysterious origin. So, the HE were the aggressors in my view.

In OEB, the key word is "even" showing this is not a common occurrence, and may be due to the arrogance and a similar position we are in today.


Note: corruptibility chart would be:

Lizardmen/Orcs-Halflings/Ogres-Elves/Dwarfs/Humans

Why then do we see few Elves or Dwarfs who have mutations? Because they are mercilessly purged from existence. Due to the experience they have, in that respect they are akin to Kislevites and the people of the north of the Empire.

[Fandir Nightshade]

The best example are the Druchii annointed. Several thousand years in chaos wastes and they got different skin coloration. When it goes on the level of coruptability to chaos it is like this. Lizardmen/Orcs - Elves/Halflings - Ogres/Dwarfs - Men.

Actually we no longer whant the Phoenix Crown as it would only reminds us of our past failiures.

No it just shows that the elves are normally corrupted in ther minds first than in their appearance. This might be a plan of the great powers of chaos. What makes someone more or less corruptible is the strength of his soul and his determination otherwise there could be no human magicians that shouldn't be killed after a couple of years fighting on the battlefields.

That you don't want the Phoenix Crown ...a symbol of unity of all elves of ulthuan...shows to what degree of pity it has come to your race...at least of the ones like you. The elves would do good to think about their leading nobility and check if there shouldn't be some kind of new rulership.

[FVC]

I do not need to justify it, that is what High Elfs are, arrogant as hell.

You don't; you're the player. But this is like the Dark Elf player not needing to justify why his army is hypocritical - he plays an evil army and he knows it, and evil armies have always had the good fortune of not needing to justify themselves. However, the High Elves seem to think they are good, and I notice many High Elf players think they are playing a good army.

How do they justify it? For me, I'm perfectly happy to say that while High Elves have many good qualities, in some regards they're total [expletive]s. They have unpleasant cultural traits. Bretonnia has its deeply ingrained sexism and classism. The Empire has its paranoid witch hunts and selfish rulers with no interest in the nation's welfare. Dwarfs have their insane conservatism and ridiculously petty concept of grudges. And High Elves have their astounding cultural arrogance.

That doesn't mean we need to think those are good things, though. They're horrible things, for all of the good races have negative sides.

Not true. The best example are the Druchii annointed. Several thousand years in chaos wastes and they got different skin coloration. When it goes on the level of coruptability to chaos it is like this. Lizardmen/Orcs - Elves/Halflings - Ogres/Dwarfs - Men.

In terms of physical mutability, you may be right, but I would point out that mutability is not a measure of morality or wisdom. All that means is that from a purely biological perspective it is easier for Chaos energy to warp the human physical form.

That says nothing about how 'good' they are. There are many examples of humans who have been physically mutated but were not rendered evil. Vargr Breughel (Drachenfels) and Bruno Malvoison (Genevieve Undead) are two examples of humans who were hideously mutated and nonetheless maintained a strong moral code. Or the Sigmarite monks of Alt Krantzstein in Zavant were also mutated, in their case by warpstone dust in the wells, and did not falter in their beliefs or turn to evil.

So really, though humans are more physically mutable, they are not a whit more susceptible to seduction by evil artifacts. On the intellectual level, they are every bit as capable of resisting as elves or dwarfs. They might be more likely to sprout tentacles, but there is no correlation between mutations and evil.

[cisse]

Not true. The best example are the Druchii annointed. Several thousand years in chaos wastes and they got different skin coloration. When it goes on the level of coruptability to chaos it is like this. Lizardmen/Orcs - Elves/Halflings - Ogres/Dwarfs - Men.

In terms of physical mutability, you may be right, but I would point out that mutability is not a measure of morality or wisdom. All that means is that from a purely biological perspective it is easier for Chaos energy to warp the human physical form.

So really, though humans are more physically mutable, they are not a whit more susceptible to seduction by evil artifacts. On the intellectual level, they are every bit as capable of resisting as elves or dwarfs. They might be more likely to sprout tentacles, but there is no correlation between mutations and evil.

That's exactly the point I was going to make (thanks, FVC ). In fact, I think the Druchii annointed one of the best examples how Elves/Dwarfs can indeed be corrupted.

I think the Empire players are forgeting that their land is built on the land that both Elves and Dwarfs consider theirs but are allowing you to live there because they currently don't have the strength to protect agaisnt Orc/Beastmen etc. When they march though the Empire they don't feel inclined to report anything to anyone for wouldn't it be strange to ask someone else to allow you to move over somethin that is "yours".

You may be right in that HE's see it like that, it could be (and seems indeed right seeing their arrogance). But Dwarfs certainly don't - the lands of the Empire are ours since the time of Sigmar, by the oaths taken by the Dwarf High King in that time. They may think they have good reasons to "visit" us now, but they're still invading our lands with armies.


By the way, welcome to the forum Giladis, good to see you here. I'm sorry if the tone is somewhat overly defensive sometimes, but it's hard to keep reading time and again that we should just roll over and wait till the Crown is found by our "elders". It's all IC and all, and most posters are not too insulting. But both on Bugman's and Asur.org there were some responses that made it hard to stay calm - and since I was an ambassador back then, I figured I had to keep things civil. But now you are the ambassador.

[wissenlander]

Or they could the whole way and have Karl Franz turn evil, run into the Chaos Wastes, have a succession crisis, and it's time for the Age of Three Emperors Two: Ulric's Revenge, wherein Karl Franz's heir tries to declare himself Emperor, but fails to get the electors' support due to his father's obvious mistakes, Todbringer steps up to the plate and has Ar-Ulric crown him Emperor, and Emmanuelle von Liebewitz decides to fill in as Averland's elector 'in the interests of peace' and, with Stirland's support, declares herself Empress. And the Empire is in chaos once again, thus justifying all sorts of wild campaigns and battles in the future.

Ho-ly crap!   I won't even get started on Emanuella...

A lot of this can work, but then again some of it will not.  I wouldn't make concessions to the Dwarfs who have been closer to us for a much longer period of time, and I'm sorry (sort of) to say it, but I won't make too many concessions for anyone else either (with the support of everyone here of course).  My thoughts are in red below:

I talked with Wissenlander on Asur.org and the Elven nation is willing to offer you a treaty that could be called Non-agression.
1. Do not attack us and we shall not attack you.
I think this is self explanatory.

2. Leave our buissness alone unless you are invided to them for the end result will benefit you in the form of preventing summonings of the Undead and Daemons in the region.
I don't think this would mean that if we did 'interfere' that you'd let these monstrosities roam the earth.  What is interference though?  I don't think that movement through our own lands should be restricted, but at the same time we shouldn't openly seek to fight you as above.  Still, if you see something as 'interference' and you attack us first, as stated above, we would have no choice but to defend ourselves.

3. Do not attack the Dwarfs as your main enemy and we shall not interfere in occassional skirmishes between you two.
Again, this is self explanatory.

4. Should Dwarfs come to strongly against you and we deem that by doing so they are risking the balance of the world you may expect our support.
So you don't think of us utter scum after all...

5. Do not try to study the Crown should it fall in your possession.
Don't think that's going to happen.  I still stand by Council of the Wise, with the support of this forum.  I know you've stated that everyone involved in the GDA would say destroy it or whatever, but at least we would be there to participate.  If it should be destroyed that's one thing, at least we would be amongst equals.  The way that the GDA wants it right now, we'll get a spanking for taking the high road.

I offer you to name 3 terms of the agreement of your own to be added to the treaty.
1. Coordination with Imperial representatives as you move through our lands.  This would make sure that no miscommunications happen and unneccesary bloodshed occur.
2.Upon finding of the crown, a Council of the Wise be convened, if nothing more than to destroy the crown with all of the 'good guys' present. 
3.A thousand more wishes...I mean, can't think of anything else right now.

I don't mind negotiation, and we can continue to do so.  But don't expect us to come to the table with our heads lowered like servants.


OOC:  At least I think this is out of character.   No offense Giladis, this is nothing personal so don't take it as such.  I know that our strong words are often misconstrued.

[Ostermarker]

A non-aggression pact eh?

1. as wiss said, self-explanatory.

2. well, what is your business? If it is something opposed to the Empire or its allies in some way, I doubt that we could leave it be.

3. I doubt that they will be considered our main enemy (I think they were the first race we approached) if nothing other than lesser of X evils.

4.Wow, so its not all "Elder Races rule". That's good.

5. I doubt we could comply with this, I think that we're going to have a Council of the Wise anyway. Even if it is just to decide in what manner we should destroy it.

Empire:
I think that 5 should be replaced as above.
All elven armies should be in communication with the Imperial commander of their region so they will not be attacked by an Imperial Army if found in the region.


To rest of Empire:
Something about Marienburg may be appropriate? Allowing them to maintain trading rights if we get it? If we're doing it with the Brets, why not something in this agreement with the HE? Adds more validity to it.

[Gneisenau]

Someone asked what if Dwarfs took the Crown and refused to give it for destruction. Than they would be called oath breakers their entire race disgraced and a mighty host of High Elves, LIzardmen and all other willing to accompany us before their gates.

(...)

High Elves are not pawns of the Dwarfs in this matter in spite contrary belief. We have our own agendas but through weighting pros and cons we decided helping the Dwarfs would be more beneficial to us in the future than helping you.

Had we gone with you against the Dwarfs we would harm our relations (that have slowly been geting better and better) with the dwarfs for another few thousand years. On the other hand most Empire people will not know apart from odd legends what occuerd in 3 or 4 centuries (1/5 of an average elven lifetime) and when Chaos rises its uglly head once more. Elves will come to help you win the day as we did before. Buissness as usual.

So many characterfull remarks currently jump up and down in my head, but since it seems that many people here still are somewhat lenient towards you Asur, I won't spoil their hopes by paying you back for your speeches in equal terms.

Just so much: I really recommend reading the fluff, and if not all the fluff, then at least your own armybook. P. 57 tells us that the Asur think the Dwarfs once allied with the Druchii. Have the High Elves forgotten this already? Then they are fickle indeed, much more than men. Or have they reconsidered? How much I'd like to see that...:

High Elf ambassador: "You are not worthy of being talked to! You allied with our arch-enemy, the incarnation of all that's evil!"
Dwarf ambassador: "No, we didn't."
High Elf ambassador: "Really? Oh. And we thought... alright... Okay, if you say so, then it's settled. Fancy an alliance?"

[Fandir Nightshade]

Gneisenau just speak your mind because here in the empire everyone is allowed to speak his free will...if the elf takes this as a personal rebuke and coins it on all of our fellow generals he is doing a poor job as an ambassador.

[Wyzer1]

I see NO reason to feel the need to follow the so-called "Elder" races... and little to ask for their help

Lets see. Dwarves and Elves, once two great civilizations (BTW, you had to have "started" somewhere), destroy themselves in a 2000 year pointless grudge-match, and are now at the lowest point in your entire races civilizations

The Elves are capable of marching to war (kinda), but are the Dwarves really kidding themselves into believing they have the manpower (er, dwarf power?) to maintain their crumbling keeps along with sparing enough soldiers to advanced to war against the *deep booming* Great Empire of Mankind!

You know what else? Dwarves are great fighters. Underground. In holes where numbers cant work against them. Or in their large walls where they don't have to worry about getting attacked by the enemy

How well do you think they will fare when in the middle of the Empire's grand forests!? Outnumbered, outgunned, outmaneuvered... (pictures dwarf host walking into Athel (sp?) Loren... must have taken a wrong turn at Albuquerque...)

The elves aren't really any better off, although it would be a warm day in the chaos wastes that an elf would admit it

We are the Greatest Empire Of Mankind (kindly shoos away Cathay Ambassador)! For 5 Editions we have suffered, now it is our time to shine!! Whos with me!?!

[Tostig]

I also believe that a central part of the Empire is the huge numbers of Dwarfs who live in our towns and cities, and who owe allegiance to the Emperor as his citizens before some King in a hole in the ground somewhere. Again I see this as a potential muddying of the ethical waters - being four foot tall doesn't make you some grudge bearing, Karak inhabiting cardboard cut-out of a person, but a dwarf. Mixed emotions, muddied loyalties and split infinitives etcetera.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Cheers of glory and Valour!

Hipp hipp Hurraaaaa

Hipp hipp Hurraaaaaaaaaaaa


Hipp hipp Huraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Hands out a bunch of steins filled with german beer

[cisse]

Guys,

While I fully understand your fluff reasons and frustration for this, please keep in mind that this is a negotiation. I've been doing a lot of that on other forums, and I know how it feels - so I'd like to say a few things. I pity Giladis a bit at his stage, it's certainly hard to keep reading all this and try to answer to everything.

I don't mind negotiations one bit, and everyone can say what he likes, but please keep in mind that all of this is in character -IC- and that sometimes it must be made clear that posts should be understood in such a way. Oh, and keep your posts on-topic; even though I do like German beer (not as good as Belgian beer of course, but it's decent ), I do not think the last post contributed much to the discussion.

Sorry if I sound like I'm ranting, by the way. Blame it on my lack of sleep in the examinations period.

[Ostermarker]

To rest of Empire:
Something about Marienburg may be appropriate? Allowing them to maintain trading rights if we get it? If we're doing it with the Brets, why not something in this agreement with the HE? Adds more validity to it.

Is anybody going to respond to this, or is that not insulting Elves enough for everyone else?
Should a separate topic be started for the negotiations, and leave this one for Elf-bashing?

We had the insults, now we've moved onto (possibly) negotiations for a non-aggression pact, which would be hampered due to wanton insults. That's diplomacy.

[Wyzer1]

To rest of Empire:
Something about Marienburg may be appropriate? Allowing them to maintain trading rights if we get it? If we're doing it with the Brets, why not something in this agreement with the HE? Adds more validity to it.

Is anybody going to respond to this, or is that not insulting Elves enough for everyone else?
Should a separate topic be started for the negotiations, and leave this one for Elf-bashing?

We had the insults, now we've moved onto (possibly) negotiations for a non-aggression pact, which would be hampered due to wanton insults. That's diplomacy.

In America it is    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush