Topic: Dwarf Exiles

[wissenlander]

I hate to keep creating topics, but stuff needs to be discussed.

The Dwarfs at Bugman's are throwing around the idea of the exile bit.  It's not one of their main objectives but it's something they think would be fluffy.

In our defense, I stated that we didn't want this war to begin with and wouldn't do anything to push the Dwarfs away.  They countered with the thought that Imperial nobles may think that way, but average citizens may become angered and seek vengeance, in which case there would be some turmoil.

It has already been talked about in the fluff, so there is a precedence for it.  It contradicts what has been put forward previously, that many Dwarfs are exiles that live in the Empire. 

So, what say you men?  Will we support this fluff?  Will we let each individual region decide on it's own?  Your thoughts, as always, are welcome.

[Dendo Star]

I think we need to differ to Jerok on this one.  He's pretty anti-Dwarf about the campaign, and on that note so am I.

Except for our wonderful Imperial Dwarfs! 

[wissenlander]

Yeah, I definitely let them know that this is one area that we were not happy about at all and would most likely not support.  Still, I am an ambassador and I bring back word when I get it.

[Sherminator1]

How about we just execute any we find?

On second thought...

[Dendo Star]

God, I'm glad we have you and others doing a good job on the diplomany.  Makes this so much cooler.

[Ostermarker]

I think in this matter, the average person in the Empire doesn't know what's going on, they don't know the high politics, all they know is that Dwarfs are marchin through the land ready for battle. In some respects, they probably believe that something along the lines of the Conclave is happening, that they have come to help the Empire.

The Imperial Dwarfs would stay where they are. They have left the mountains, and are making good money in the Empire, smithing, engineering, architecture etc, so would see leaving as an opportunity lost. I doubt that they'd be lynched or made to leave, in most villages or towns, they'd probably be one constant not changing. "Oh, you need a horse shoe, you'll need Ol' Alaricsson, his smithy up ahead, he's a Dwarf, knows what he's talking about"

The villagers wouldn't throw him out, he's a source of attraction, and therefore economic boost to the town, they wouldn't understand the politics behind anything along the lynching lines, as he's probably a family friend, and he's been around long enough to make friends in most generations.

[cisse]

I think Ostermarker hits the nail on the head here, that's my thoughts exacly. Yes, I can see those dwarfs in the Empire having a hard time emotionnally, and some of them might go and join the army of the High King. But they're Imperial Dwarfs, citizens of the Empire as well, and they have allegiances there too. I'd say the great majority of them will just stay.

As to witch-hints against dwarfs or something like that: not going to happen. The Dwarfs have been allies since the beginning of the Empire. The ordinary folk doesn't know what's going on, and will still see them as allies.

[Wyzer1]

I dont even think lynching a dwarf would work...

They look pretty stout, I'd say they would just dangle there

Otherwise, Ostermarker hit the nail on the head (cisse beat me to that one). I share the anti-dwarf sentiment amongst many other forum members here. Going into the campaign, all was hunky dory. Now... (once again I am calling the Bugman's dwarfs, "Chaos Dwarfs". I refuse to believe all dwarfs have lost their sense of pride and loyalty)

[Fandir Nightshade]

I would say I go for the imperial dwarves....I like those fellows...they arm my knights. So the one person starting to lynch imperial dwarves in the Räuberdale will taste the justice of a Great Inquisitor of Sigmar.

[nosramuk]

Im not gonna go out of my way to go stuntie killing (i must resist the joys of my orcy past.)

But if they decide to try and launch a full out attack on one of the areas where the empire are staging a heavy defence then i'll have no choice but to shoot them dead. But im not gonna lead an all out attack on a dwarfy place, just wouldnt be right.

[FVC]

As to witch-hints against dwarfs or something like that: not going to happen. The Dwarfs have been allies since the beginning of the Empire. The ordinary folk doesn't know what's going on, and will still see them as allies.

Indeed. In fact, according to WFRP, one of the strictures of the Church of Sigmar requires all priests to aid dwarf-folk. Not at the expense of the Empire, of course, but devout worshippers of Sigmar are expected to go out of their way to give dwarfs a helping hand, because Sigmar was such a friend to them.

[Veldemere]

The issue I have with this is the mere title 'Dwarf exiles', it seems Bugmans are trying to paint these dwarves as being opressed by the Empire. I do not believe this to be the case, they are valued citizens of the Empire, who chose to live here rather than hole themselves up in underground tombs. These 'exiles' belong in the world of WHFRP rather than battle, they have been free to return to Karaks at any time and the only thing I think we should make clear is that they will not be harmed and are free to move as they please.

The main reason the Dwarves want these exile reports is so they can set up new Karaks in Empire territory, I feel that is an important part of the story and may colour the opinions of those here.

[Mark Perry]

The Dwarfs that have settled in the Empire are as has been stated Imperial Citizens, they have shops, they help make our Cannons, Rifles etc, they have strong links to the community and I imagine that most would want to try to ignore what is going on as it is a source of shame to them. There may be some who go to join the Dwarf Army, but I imagine most will keep stony silent on the subject and keep on with their lives in the Empire.

My Dwarf Retinue is quite happy killing O&G and other enemy's but wont do anything to hurt the Dwarf army.

[Gneisenau]

I think we need to differ to Jerok on this one.  He's pretty anti-Dwarf about the campaign, and on that note so am I.

Except for our wonderful Imperial Dwarfs! 

Imperial Dwarfs aren't dwarfs, they are imperial citizens that happen to be a bit shorter.

Honestly, who do the guys at Bugmans think they're kiddding? They started this bloody war, following the GW fluff like lapdogs, and now they are worried about so-called "exiles" - people who have lived in the empire for all their life.

Or are they worried what would happen to renegades? Perhaps they don't want the best of treatment for "exiles", but the worst - since that would frighten the few honourable dwarfs that are left into staying?

I'd say every dwarf who comes in peace is welcomed in the Empire, and if there are some left who care about loyalty to old promises and want to aid our cause and leave the petty dwarf alliance, then they are welcome as well.

[wissenlander]

I'm going to use what Ostermarker said in the fluff council.  I think that sums up the best the way we feel. 

[Ostermarker]

I'm honoured

[Tostig]

Yes, I think we have to make a distinction between dwarfs, who are a burly warrior race who happen to be rather good at metalwork, and "Dwarfs", who are a cultural, social - and above all political - entity under the leadership of an oath breaker king.

I imagine that those dwarfs who are imperial citizens would be torn between going and joining a "war of their ancestors" type of thing, or staying with their families and friends. I don't suppose they'd be above suspicion, but generally they'd be treated courteously. I suppose comparisons can be made to immigrant populations the world over, especially second and third generations.

[Rufas the Eccentric]

You call yourself a dwarf, honor, justice, our kings, our ancestors, are what we fight for. We fight to avenge ancient grudges., Tah Kazak Rik, Bugmans Brewery

Salzenmund Ironmonger's Guild, Nordland,

Thats all very well, but what ancient grudges do we hold against the men of the Empire?  They have fought and spilled their blood beside us for 2500 years.  As our Holds fell to the Goblins and Skaven, they took our ancestors in and treated us as citizens and brothers.  For all of the bravado, the upcomming campaign is more about recovering a trinket, then about honor.

Now their are very good reasons for recovering said trinket.  I for one do not trust the wisdom of the Empire's most wise to understand the dangers of the afore mentioned trinket.  Nor do I want to see the Emperor grow two heads and tenticles.  However, keep in mind that you will be tresspassing on Imperial territory and in the eyes of the Ancester Gods you will be the aggressors.  Do what you have to do, but a little less jingoism would be helpful.  It would be a sad thing if the trinket is recovered, but the friendship with the Empire is destroyed forever.

Alas, as an Imperial Dwarf, I can not join the cause.  Neither I, nor the Salzenmund Ironmonger's Guild will join will venture into the depths of the Drackwald against you.  Perhaps we can shorten a few necks of the Dark Elf raiders to earn our keep.

Ironmonger.

P.S. Madame Rosalita will be having specials all summer long if anyone gets tired of trudging through the Drakwald.  If you have not visited her unique establishment, you don't know what you are missing.

A posting from my shorter alter-ego over at the Brewery.  My belief is that the nobility and citizens of the Empire will hold there stouter bretheren in high regard. While there may be ugly incidents, I would hate to provide so much fluff that GW has all of the Imperial Dwarves pack it in and return to the mountain.  The Warhammer World will be a sterile place if each race is isolated from each other.  As it is GW has nearly killed the concept of Imperial Dwarves along with a bunch of cool figures.  Are they even mentioned in 7th edition?

Now back to Ironmonger for his pet peeve:

*Now just one more  thing.  I understand you have wandered in for an isolated mountain hold and all, but the correct plural of Dwarf  is Dwarves.  I don't care what the human dictionary says, just ask Professor Tolkein.  We are a proud and ancient race, not a bunch of growth hormone deficient humans.  And please, always remember to capitalize, Dwarf or Dwarves.

[Tostig]

*Now just one more  thing.  I understand you have wandered in for an isolated mountain hold and all, but the correct plural of Dwarf  is Dwarves.  I don't care what the human dictionary says, just ask Professor Tolkein.  We are a proud and ancient race, not a bunch of growth hormone deficient humans.  And please, always remember to capitalize, Dwarf or Dwarves.

I disagree entirely.  While Tolkein may have done his bit of propaganda spreading an alternative, pseudo-Norse version, "dwarfs" is none the less the version I prefer when not referring to his work or Middle Earth. Tolkein also suggested (somewhat sarcastically) "dwarrows" and "dwerrows" based on proper old school, 1066 and All That Anglo-Saxon - shall we use those too? Personally I like the idea of Warhammer not being Middle Earth Light, and the dwarfs/dwarves divide is a part of it. I like my Warhammer dark and grungy, not the "rural idyll that never existed--feudalism lite" of Tolkien. Then again it could just be because I'm a China Mieville whore, but I find his arguements against Middle Earth pretty compelling, as can be seen here and here. Further more GW seems, unless my eyes deceive me, to use dwarfs, and so I shall too. They decided to use "elves" and not "dwarves" and it's their world, so their choice. Also, why capitalise them? There seems no reason to that I can see. As with "human", "dwarf" isn't a proper noun, although is you're referring to them as a socio-political entity I suppose I could see an arguement being made along the same likes as "Empire", but in that case you'd have to accept that there is such a thing as dwarfs with a small d, that would cover both Chaos Dwarfs and "Good" Dwarfs and those dwarfs living in Norsica, the Empire and other places out of the control of the King.

Apart from that I'd be interested to read the reply. Either way, I feel like writing a letter to Bugman's, entitled "To the invading army of The High King Thorgrim the Oath Breaker"

[Brynjolf Irontooth]

Just want to make one thing clear:

We declared war, not the Dwarfs. They are just recovering some old item of them and we their so-called loyal ally are declaring war on every Dwarf army that wants to reclaim what is theirs. Disgusting.  

During the Storm of Chaos it took Karl Franz more then 50 days to move his army from Altdorf to Middenheim, while Archaon only needed 40 days to march from Praag to Middenheim being delayed for several weeks by the northern defences. Karl Franz is a weak human corrupted by greed and definately spent too much time listening to the tongues of Elves and other lesser beings. It was quite easy to claim victory once the northern armies had already halved Archaons army, but this time the so-called chosen of Sigmar may be sure he has made the wrong move. Even the High Elves will probably support the Dwarfs. I rather claim the independency of Hochland then betraying our most-trusted ally and teacher. If Karl Franz thinks he has the power to break alliances made by Sigmar himself, then I call him a heretic!!

It suppose this masquerade has last long enough. It is time for a decent man to reign again. A northern one. I have supported Boris Todbringer of Middenland during the previous elections and damn right I was right. This kind of treason would never have occured.

Nor will I betray the choice of the Elector Counts made back then. My armies will be kept aloof and both Dwarf and Human armies will be allowed passing through. I will not cast aside the will of Sigmar and Ulric in order to keep the greed of a mortal happy.


Friendly regards
BI

[wissenlander]

Brynjolf, we understand the GW perspective and why the Dwarfs are against us.  What we speak of is the out and out hostility the forum has recieved.  We did our best to keep an alliance based upon the fluff that has been presented, seeking a council of the wise and going against the grain that GW has set up. 

I understand your feelings, but disagree.  Do you think Boris would really let a Dwarf threaten him in his own realm?  There is one piece of fluff that says the Empire attacked the Dwarfs first and we have done our best to remedy the situation.  Our attempts at friendship have been rebuffed at every attempt.

We were threatened to get out of the way or face the consequences.  Not very kind for a nation that has had your back for 2500 years.  We owe the Dwarfs much, but they forget that they owe us much as well.  There was fluff stated that when asking what the artifact was about the Dwarfs kept their mouths shut and left.  We're supposed to sit aside while every army in the known world comes and ravages our land?

I'm not going to cower to those who are too damn stubborn to listen to reason.  Despite what GW wants to present, this war is on their heads, not ours.

[Tostig]

We declared war, not the Dwarfs.

Brynjolf, I believe you'll find that I, and almost every other Empire player here will disagree with you. Suppose that their High King had explained himself before hand, it would have been fine - after all, that's what allies do! However you seem to believe that marching an army into another nation's lands, refusing to recognise their sovereignty, refusing to give explanation as to why you are there, not bothering to ask for permission, refusing to parley when challenged, let alone giving way to their owners of the land on a road isn't an opening of hostilities.

If, for example, the forces of the Warsaw Pact countries had decided to go for an unannounced and unexplained stroll through Western Germany and then had primed their nukes when challenged - that would be taken as an act of war. Suppose Bretonnia had done the same, with a large force of knights marching on Altdorf and then forming up for battle when challenged. Would it be so unreasonable to assume they they were at war?

definately spent too much time listening to the tongues of Elves and other lesser beings.

These would be the Elves that the Dwarfs are currently allied to - the same Dwarfs who approached the Vampire Counts? Forget fluff, that's just trying to win at all costs. Feel free to read the thread from when their ambassador approached us demanding that we hand over the crown (if we are the ones to find it) and submit to them.

During the Storm of Chaos it took Karl Franz more then 50 days to move his army from Altdorf to Middenheim, while Archaon only needed 40 days to march from Praag to Middenheim being delayed for several weeks by the northern defences.

I think you're looking for a conspiracy theory here where there is none. After all, who was it who forms the Concave of Light? Whose nation was it (apart from Kislev, but that was impossible to stop from happening) who took the most damage during the Storm of Chaos? Personally I'm not against KF going evil, but at the moment there just isn't enough evidence to support it. Look at things from his point of view - all he knows about is that there is a magical artefact so powerful that the Orcs are waging a WAAAAAGH (what a stupid term) to recover it and the Dwarf are breaking an alliance as old as Sigmar to get their hands on it - right after they hid it in Imperial land.

Which is another point, if the Dwarfs are so incredibly high and noble, how come it was they who forged this evil crown, and then hid it in our lands?

[Brynjolf Irontooth]

If there are allies marching through our lands, we can only be glad as they might give our enemies within our borders a beating (beastmen, Orcs, ...).

And if this item attracts enemies to our provinces then the faster the Dwarfs find it and take it back to their Strongholds, the better for us. Looking for it and keeping it, won't get us rid of those enemies. No, even more will come raiding our provinces. The Emperor might be save within his citywalls, but that won't prevent enemies from raiding our lands and killing our people. We have sworn to protect our people from any enemy. But that doesn't mean we have to attract those enemies to our lands.

Remember the highest form of trust is supporting someone without knowing why!

Friendly regards
BI

[Tostig]

If there are allies marching through our lands, we can only be glad as they might give our enemies within our borders a beating (beastmen, Orcs, ...).

Enemies that they have caused to be there, and who they aren't interested in - rather preferring to steal our land without our permission (referring to the Dwarfen plan for the UK of leaving the Empire to face the Orc threat and defend out villages, while they begin founding a new Karak within our lands, without our permission, and with the help of Ogre mercenaries.)

the better for us.

How so? Those enemies will still be marching in our lands, raping, looting and pillaging. The only difference will be that the Dwarfs won't be there.

Remember the highest form of trust is supporting someone without knowing why!

Would you trust someone enough that if they burst into your house without forewarning or permission with a gun, ran towards your children's bedroom and shouted in a crazed voice "Out of my way or face the consequences!" you'd stand back and twiddle your thumbs? And what if, when you went after them, they stood on the stairs shoving the gun in your face and refusing to explain themselves or let you pass?

I for one don't.

[Ostermarker]

IC: "Now, Brynjolf, I agree with you. Boris Todbringer, would be better man to have as Emperor, we do not want some fop from the South, we need a strong man, who knows what it is like to fight for the Empire and its allies.

But, I disagree with you on the matter of the dwarfs. I know many Imperial Dwarfs, in fact, I often have some in my army (OOC: Using DoW). From this experience of their diplomacy, I consider the Imperial Dwarfs more honourable."

OOC: With the dwarfs, we approached, them, and I have read the first few replies before they switched so you had to be a member, and I found that they had decided to turn against the Empire. In fact, where we approached other forums, they replied saying "OH, you don't want to ally with them, they're weak and fickle" Blah blah blah.

They approached the Vampires and have not approached us. You call that a friend? They were the aggressor, and have turned from the alliance first. We have declared war as Warhammer-Empire, ok, I'll admit it. But then, the allies declared war in WWI and WWII, the act of war comes first (usually), followed by the declaration. They committed the act of war, so are in the wrong (IMO).