Topic: Nurgle Marine and Daemon combi question

[Crimsonsphinx]

Hi All,

No idea if this is going to be popular, but it certainly seems legal.

What you need is a nurgle based marine army, with Typhus and a bunch of plague zombies in a unit.  Preferably 35.  You ally in The Tallyman guy from the Codex daemon book.

What you need to do, is ensure Typhus gets into an assault with most of his zombies intact, once Tallyman has managed to get himself onto the table, hopefully on turn 1.
Once in combat, activate the destroyer hive.  As it kills models from both sides indescriminately, it all counts towards the tally.  It does not specify enemy models killed, just models killed by models with the Mark of nurgle, or daemons of nurgle.

Does this sound legit?  It isn't something I myself can do, not owning the Tallyman, but I have a friend who wants to try the list out.

[Sig]

Never seen it used but heard of it. From my understanding, it is legal. Note that a new daemons book is close so we may well see a codex restriction but for now it seems legit, and awesomely fluffy.

[phillyt]

I've seen it.  Works fine.

[rufus sparkfire]

What does tally bloke do?

[Azyr]

Sorry to burst the bubble but the answer is no this isn't legal according to the FAQ

Q: Do models nominated as Plague Zombies from Codex: Chaos Space Marines count as followers of Nurgle for the purposes of Epidemius’ Tally of Pestilence? (p52)
A: No.

Would work with cultists tho.

[Crimsonsphinx]

Sorry to burst the bubble but the answer is no this isn't legal according to the FAQ

Q: Do models nominated as Plague Zombies from Codex: Chaos Space Marines count as followers of Nurgle for the purposes of Epidemius’ Tally of Pestilence? (p52)
A: No.

Would work with cultists tho.

Azyr, you are misinterpretting the plan.  The FAQ is asking if the plague zombies count to get the bonuses which are incredibly decent.  What the plan is, is to kill your own models to contribute towards the tally, and this doesn't require them to be a follower of nurgle. 

[phillyt]

I think the Tallyman only cares that nurgle models kill something.  The destroyer hive kills models, which is from a nurgle model, and adds it to the tally.

[Crimsonsphinx]

I think the Tallyman only cares that nurgle models kill something.  The destroyer hive kills models, which is from a nurgle model, and adds it to the tally.

Thats what I thought too Philly, as thats how the wording reads.  It just seems a bit of rules exploitation.  However once the new daemon book comes out, it will be interesting to see if this loop hole exists.

Just seems a bit odd that you can kill your own models to generate the tally!

[Sig]

Odd for followers of chaos to do human sacrifice for power??

Probably the most fluffy loop hole ever! 

[phillyt]

The Tallyman lists require that you use those nurgle marines to leverage that power.  It also isn't that great until you get the no armor saves power.  Those plague marines are expensive!

[Azyr]

Sorry to burst the bubble but the answer is no this isn't legal according to the FAQ

Q: Do models nominated as Plague Zombies from Codex: Chaos Space Marines count as followers of Nurgle for the purposes of Epidemius’ Tally of Pestilence? (p52)
A: No.

Would work with cultists tho.

Azyr, you are misinterpretting the plan.  The FAQ is asking if the plague zombies count to get the bonuses which are incredibly decent.  What the plan is, is to kill your own models to contribute towards the tally, and this doesn't require them to be a follower of nurgle.

Ah got ya Crimsonsphinx, I see your plan now.

So take it that it counts for all attacks - ranged and melee. If that's the case, that's brutal

[Crimsonsphinx]

Sorry to burst the bubble but the answer is no this isn't legal according to the FAQ

Q: Do models nominated as Plague Zombies from Codex: Chaos Space Marines count as followers of Nurgle for the purposes of Epidemius’ Tally of Pestilence? (p52)
A: No.

Would work with cultists tho.

Azyr, you are misinterpretting the plan.  The FAQ is asking if the plague zombies count to get the bonuses which are incredibly decent.  What the plan is, is to kill your own models to contribute towards the tally, and this doesn't require them to be a follower of nurgle.

Ah got ya Crimsonsphinx, I see your plan now.

So take it that it counts for all attacks - ranged and melee. If that's the case, that's brutal

You could of course take nurgle marked cultists instead of plague zombies, and they would get the bonuses of the tally.  Once you get 20 kills by nurgle models, not difficult with havocs and obliterators being able to be marked, then the cultists autopistols and knifes will ignore saves!  Making them effectively ap2 power weapons.

[phillyt]

It is a pretty big investment though.  I focus heavily on the Tallyman to prevent him from building up too much.  Even dead, the models retain the bonus, but  in the long run, it takes a while to build.  He often won't arrive until turn 2, you have to take subpar demon models as allies, and then you have to try and net those kills.

[Crimsonsphinx]

I think most of the daemon model range is pretty good.

Although the new ones I have just seen look a very mixed bag.  The new Khorne cannon is dire!

[Azyr]

Agree with being a mixed bag. Think it may of been some of the colour choices that made me go hmm with some of them.
On a plus side, apparently daemons loose their demonic assault rule so they are deployed with the other armies.

That would make this combo a bit more interesting. Just a pity that vehicles can't take marks.

[Crimsonsphinx]

Well the Tallyman can no longer buff Nurgle marked units.  Just Nurgle daemons.  Also the ability to ignore saves has gone.  I think we will see far less of the Tallyman than before.

[phillyt]

Good!

[Azyr]

Damn it....well looks like the daemon book is a "don't need now" book.

[Aldaris]

Could still be interesting - Nurgle in particular might be a nice choice as an ally. Consider a tricked out GUO, a squad of Plaguebearers for Objective camping, a Soul Grinder with Phlegm and MoN (which makes it shrouded... AV13 in cover with shrouded and lots of HP will be quite frustrating)... perhaps a unit of those new flies too. That's a lot of utility.

[Azyr]

Hmm, so is it for all Nurgle daemons or daemons with the mark of Nurgle??

Cause then you still could take him and that would still count for some of the CSM units that have daemons in their rules eg daemon princes and possessed for example?

[Aldaris]

No. Only works for Daemons with the "Daemon of Nurgle" rule. Which, in the CSM codex, only Daemon Princes can have. All others simply have Marks. And Characters from both codices still can't join each others units.

They certainly made damn sure that, after recently introducing allies, the most logical pairing in the background can't interact much with their respective (only) battle brothers. It's completely puzzling to me. A Space Marine can lead a squad of Guardsmen and give them ATSKNF (lol), but a Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut can't lead a unit of Demonic Juggernaut riders...

[Crimsonsphinx]

No. Only works for Daemons with the "Daemon of Nurgle" rule. Which, in the CSM codex, only Daemon Princes can have. All others simply have Marks. And Characters from both codices still can't join each others units.

They certainly made damn sure that, after recently introducing allies, the most logical pairing in the background can't interact much with their respective (only) battle brothers. It's completely puzzling to me. A Space Marine can lead a squad of Guardsmen and give them ATSKNF (lol), but a Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut can't lead a unit of Demonic Juggernaut riders...

Thats because Space marines are overpowered.  Everyone knows that!  Evil/Xenos armies always get the shaft.

I am certainly leaning towards making Daemons my main army.  Despite army wide nerfs, especially on Bloodcrushers, Flamers, Tallyman, Changeling and Masque, most of the rest of the book is okay.  Its mostly due to the insane cheapness.

Now since this was my thread initally, I am threadjacking it to post my first try at a 2000pt list.  Its not ideal, since it is quite slow, so won't probably see battle, but see what you think;

Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeench, level 3, Grimwoire of True Names, Locus of +1str spells [thats not what its called, but thats what it does!]

20 Pink Horrors, Icon, Blasted Standard
20 Daemonettes, Full Command, Greater Etherblade
20 Daemonettes, Full Command, Greater Etherblade
20 Bloodletters, Full Command, Etherblade, Banner of Blood
10 Plaguebearers
10 Plaguebearers

Soul Grinder, Mark of Tzeench, Eyebolt ability [s10 ap1 18 inch range gun]
Soul Grinder, Mark of Tzeench, Eyebolt ability [s10 ap1 18 inch range gun]
Seeker Chariot Cavalcade [2 seeker chariots, 1 exalted chariot]

2000

[Aldaris]

I'm not saying Space Marines are OP - far from it. I just don't understand why they would introduce Allies rules, make CSM and Daemons battle brothers - and then write specific rules that prohibit them from using most of the benefits. It seriously boggles my mind. Why would they do that? They're actively hurting themselves.

As for the list - I'd ditch Fateweaver and take a generic LoC. Fateweaver can't do shit in CC, and just providing rerolls for the two Grinder beams seems a bit of a waste. A generic LoC with Level 3, the +2 S staff and one or two greater gifts can bring serious hurt, at least on paper. Either go 3 Divination powers or 2 Divination 1 Tzeentch.

The Grinders - I'd take MoN and Phlegm. Seems the best choice to me. 2+ cover behind ruins with AV13 is just mean, and the template will have more general utility. Keep in mind Grinders are only BS3...

[Sig]

They really should FAQ granting fearless and atsknf to units you join right out of the game. You should need a special ability like dark apostles and chaplains to grant that.

Lol@ SM being overpowered.

Crimson that army seems very slow. I'd want some screamers I think, would probably drop some daemonettes for them. Be interesting to see if any power builds emerge. I was at my LGS yesterday and Kirby from 3++ was chatting with Aus's best player, who was thinking of taking daemons to the ATC tournament (modelled on ETC) instead of his necrons, so we'll see!

[Crimsonsphinx]

The army is very slow.  Which is why I won't be using it.  I think it needs a lot of work.

I think ill change one Grinder into an aegis line with quadgun, and man it with plaguebearers for 2+ coversaves!  I am not sure how useful hiding your Grinder behind a ruin will be, as it wont have LOS.  You may be right about the big blast thing though, but I was trying to address the serious lack of anti tank in my list with them.

Fateweaver is a spellcasting monster though.  2x level 4 wizard knowing different 8 spells.  Sure he sucks in combat, but with the Book of true names pimping him up to a rerollable 2++ invulnerable save 2/3rds of turns and having arguably the best warlord trait I think it is worth the trade.  That staff can injure your greater daemon relatively easily too when he explodes champions etc.  If I wasn't taking Fateweaver, I don't think I would take a LoC, more likely it would be one of the other GDs, rolling twice on the middle gift chart, since that is where all the survivability upgrades live.

I think I am more likely to bin off the Bloodletters and keep the Daemonettes.  Khorne stuff just seems weak in the new edition.  I need at least one unit capable of running up to the enemy on turn 1 with an Icon, be it Plague Drones, Blood Crushers or Seekers. 

I read 3++ quite a bit, although I don't always agree with them.

Oh and SM being overpowered was a joke.  However GKs are, and their characters can join other armies, and bring their crazy grenades to places they really shouldn't be!