Topic: We be Vampire Hunters

[undivided.capital]

This is my new list, I am trying out some "sub-optimal" troops but troops that I have fun playing with. I feel like the list does feel very naked though without artillery support. What would you guys suggest I take out or add?

I am usually playing against Vamps, HE and DE

Characters
Battle Wizard Lord (Light)   Lvl 4
        Talismen of Preservation   
Battle Wizard   lvl 1
   Dispel Scroll
Warrior Priest   (go with Greatswords)
        HA
        Shield
Warrior Priest   (go with the ICK or Demis)
   Warhorse (barding)
   Heavy armour
   Shield
   Vanhorstman's Speculum
Witch Hunter   
   Ruby Ring
Captain of the Empire   (go with Greatswords)
   Battle Standard Bearer
   Full Plate
   Enchanted Shield
        Seed of Rebirth
Core   
Inner Circle Knights   x11
   F.C.
   Banner of Swiftness
Knightly Orders   x5
   
Archers   x10
   
Special   
Demigryph   x3
   Musician

Great Swords   x30
   F.C.
Det. Free Company Militia   x10
Det. Free Company Militia   x10

Great Cannon

1999 pts.

Let me know what you think!

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

The WP with the GS looks rather naked. Not even HA and a shield? The BSB cannot have the White Cloak and the Enchanted Shield.
Why the FC? To put it mildly: they suck.

[Xathrodox86]

That's seriously one of the more fluffy lists that I've ever saw. My one objection is the lack of solid infantry core. Militia is hardly a staying power on the battlefield. Also no artillery is bad.

[undivided.capital]

Thanks for the input guys. So I took off the white cloak and added the seed of regrowth. I did this because I dont want to spend points giving him a ward save if I plan to throw shield of faith on there.

Also I added HA, Shield and GW on the Warrior Priest for the Greatswords.

I like the Militia because they can actually usually do some serious damage for me. What usually happens for me is an opponent sends a sink hole into my Greatswords hoping to hold them up for the rest of the game. I can counter charge with my Militia and I get 15 attacks with Hatred. This has a few bennifits;
1) I find Greatswords have a problem against opposition that have a ward save. FCM with 2 attacks to hit can pass more damage through. FCM with 15 Attacks with Hatred should hit statistically 11.25, and wound half which is 5.63 wounds on a unit. If the unit has 5+ ward saves then the unit will still take 3.75 wounds. Compared to Greatswords who get 10 Attacks(if not in Hoard) Again with Hatred hit all statistically 7.5 times and wound 5. And if the unit has a 5+ Ward save 3.33. Halberdiers only do 2.5 wounds in this situation. (again not in Hoard) I would say when going up against Plague Bearers or such things with soley a Ward save more attacks is crucial. Does this make sense or have I done my math wrong?
2) CR
3) Often opponent don't have many attacks against the Militia so the mitigates losses.
  I agree that Militia tend to suck but I think they balance out the Greatswords well. Also I can use them to redirect, I like to play at my own pace!(I usually wouldn't take Greatswords or FCM but I like how this combination is working out.) (Also all my math is done against units that have WS4 and T4)

TBH the only reason I don't have a cannon in here is because everything is painted a nice green white and brown and my cannon is red. It looks funny  After all of this I think I may drop 1 free company det., turn the archers into a detachment and take the red Cannon anyway.

Lastly, I really dislike out state troops. It feels like they do nothing well and everything else below average. Whenever my opponents get past my Cav it feels like I'm saying "oh I guess I'll hit them with some halberdiers, that should hold them up for a while," but thats all they do. Its like a giant block of redirectors, a very expensive anvil that whiffs whenever possible. I much prefer components that can bring some damage or are at least fun to use. That is all of coarse IMO. 

Again thanks for helping me out guys! Also I have 31 extra points, any more ideas?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Drop the GW on the WP. If you give the WP a GW, he cannot use the shield in CC, as he must use the GW. That gives you another 5 pts to spend. 

[Xathrodox86]

I'll be shamelessly stealing your army list at some point since it got me quite curious. Hope you won't mind.

Also: re-paint the cannon. Bah, but who am I to say such things. Almost all of my army is from different provinces... yet.

[undivided.capital]

Of coarse try it out, just make sure you post how it turns out! 

I always paint my artillery in red and white. I like to think they are from the Royal Battery or something like that. My army usually represents a small village Garrison on the outreaches of the Empire, often they can rally old settled knights to come to their cause but Artillery is too expensive for the everyday folks. This being said, one red cannon doesn't quite do the story justice so I have started to sway to playing without. 

Fidelis, thanks for pointing out that mistake. I will use those extra points well.. when I figure out what to use them on.

[mottdon]

Sounds fun!  Against VC, HE, and DE, I think your GS will suffer, BUT I don't think we have a much better solution vs those armies.  Usually, I like to either blow them to kingdom come or make them get through high armor, but I totally get where you are coming from and they can come in handy vs monsters and such.

I might drop the Seed of Rebirth and give the GS the Banner of Eternal Flame.  They can take magic banners can't they?  I forget and I don't have my book with me at the moment.  That way, they can deal with regin and etheral stuff.  Either that or the Banner of Discipline.  The +1 to Leadership can really help units with Stubborn. 

If you are really looking to heal up your BSB, then give your Lv 4 Life, and your Lv1 Light since they will both know all the spells now anyway.  The only difference is the 3 points added to you casting value.  I'd say vs these armies, you'd want to keep them survivable more than buffing them a little.  Also, Light spell casting totals are lower than those from Life, so it'll be easier for a Lv1 to get those off.

I really like the Militia detachments!  I've actually used them to get effectiveness this same way!  They become Stubborn, so they are defending your flanks rather well and the additional attacks are really handy.  Use your knights to break up his army line formations.  If you stop one or two units from moving forward, and manage to keep the rest of his units isolated, then you'll open up his flanks for your detachments.  The other thing they can be really useful for is softening up big blocks of Crypt Ghouls.  Those guys can be a huge problem for GS since they will be striking before you and have poison attacks.  The militia units can take out quite a few and get them down to a point where they won't hurt your elite troops so much. 

Good luck and keep us posted!

[undivided.capital]

Thanks for the feedback! I totally forgot about the possibility of a Magic Banner on GS I also like the idea of the eternal flame.

What did you mean by they both know all the spells anyway? I didn't quite understand that. I'm really liking the lore of light with the timewarp and stuff but maybe it is time to switch it up.

I should be getting a game in on thursday so hopefully I can make a report and everything.

Thanks again!

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

What did you mean by they both know all the spells anyway? I didn't quite understand that.

If you are playing according to the rules of End Times: Khaine, all wizards know all spells of their chosen lore. If you are playing according to the normal rules, they do not.

[mottdon]

Yeah, what Fidelis said.  The apparent new rules that everyone is talking about, all wizards know all spells.  There is a lot of speculation as to whether or not this will be the rules for the 9th edition.  A lot of people are trying this method of playing right now.  That's why I said what I did. 

If I had to choose between the two, then you're probably right.  I'd stick with light.  Maybe go with a Fire wizard with Fireball for some offensive magic on your Lv1 in this case?  I find Light to be a little restrictive on offense.  Especially in the initial turn of the game.  Mostly used for it's augments. 

[undivided.capital]

Quick batrep!

So last night brought the list to my LGS League Night and had a game. It was awesome that the other player brought Arkhan the black and a mix of Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings. Very thematic for my list.

I didn't switch my lvl 1 to fire, I kept it to light because I already had the Ruby Ring on the Witch Hunter. Which I thought could be used with Killing Blow but unfortunately not.

The other side was pretty much Skele Archers(50), Zombies(50), Arkhan the Black, Casket of Souls and a Catapult. Then there was Etheral stuff; 4 Spirit Hosts(I think?) 2x5 Hexwraiths. There was also some Necromancers.

Beginning
I deployed heavy on my left with my large block of knights and GS both over there. Cannon and Wizards and Witch Hunter in the Middle. Demigryphs took the right with 5 Vanilla Knights. He deployed archers in the middle, Casket and Catapult behind them. Arkon on the right with Hexwraiths and zombies on the left.
The cannon got one chance to shoot but missed and took a beating on his first turn. The wizards tried for Banishment on Arkon but it was dispelled. I felt like I had him out ranged so I held almost everything back.
Other than destroying my cannon his first two turns were relatively quiet. We traded scrolls in the second turn, him dispelling banishment and me dispelling Arkon raising things. He did come and meet my vanilla knights with a spirit host and held them up.

Middle
He blocked my demis up with a spirit host and in turn 4 they ran off the board after also being charged by the Hex Wraiths. With my whole right flank crumbling I started to make some progress on the left. I got Timewarp on my GS and they came up to meet the zombies with a group of Militia. My Inner Circle Knights tried to cross the field to charge the archers and were held by a spirit host. His archers took out my wizard bunker. I managed to get off banishment twice against Arkon but he still lived with 1 wound left. At the bottom of the fourth he raised some Sepulcral Stalkers. These misfired 4 times and killed themselves in the bottom of the fifth.

End
The GS killed the last zombie and repositioned to take on the skeletons archers with his wizards. My lvl 4 Wizard managed to take out Arkon finally!  Also in round 4 and 5 that wizard survived 2 IF (once survived being sucked into the void) and made 9 ward saves. In turn 6 after Arkon was defeated she threw one more banishment at the Hexwraiths and they were slaughtered. His lvl 4 wizard at the bottom of 6 made a cross table shot and finally killed her though. The ICK finally killed the spirit host that was holding them up but it was too late to really join the fight.

The game ended in a draw. I felt that 2 major things hurt me in the game. 1 was not having much of anything to deal with Ethereal Creatures and 2 was my inexperienced Deployment. I really pinched in my ICK having them on the left flank.
I felt like the FCM did their job well as one detachment was used as a wizard bunker when the archers died and the other charged in with the GS clearing out more then their weight in Zombies. I think that the lvl 4 Wizard has really become my hero and she will have a name from now on. Without her it would have definitely been a loss.

Overall great opponent, great themed game and a great battle with a lot of surprises and twists and turns!

 

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Note Empire AB Official Update Version 1.2, p.2:

Q: If a Witch Hunter is equipped with a magic item such as the Ring of Volans or the Ruby Ring of Ruin, will any bound spell effects/magic missiles retain the Killing Blow special rule against the target of the Witch Hunter’s Accusation rule? (p37)
A: Yes.

Other WH special rules are not retained.

[undivided.capital]

That is awesome! Thanks Fidelis you da bomb!
I thought it worked like that. But I'm rather new and it's hard when your new to argue with the Game Store Owner haha

[mottdon]

Nice!  Very good job!  Yeah, the Banner of the Everlasting Flame would have helped those ICKs.  Ethereal units can be so frustrating!  If you know (or even suspect that someone might be bringing a unit(s) like that, small, cheap magical weapons on unit champions can really save your bacon!  Overall, good job though!  When you said that your cannon was squashed right off, I was thinking, "Uh-oh.  Here we go.", but it sounds like your Lv4 came through big time!  (I wouldn't count on that many saves happening too often though... )

Glad you had fun!   

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

The Banner of the Eternal Flame does not help against Ethereals, as it makes attacks Flaming but not magical.

[mottdon]

Really?!?  I thought it did.  My mistake.   

[undivided.capital]

Had my second game with this list and im loving it even more. I did add a cannon for both games so far and forgot to mention it. You guys can see the report here:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=49920.0

[Salsa]

I see this list being fairly interesting list, lot of hard hitting power scattered.
Just Greatsword boat is quite questionable and it's detachments isn't that too much in terms of what you ever need for fighting and surviving from combats and are the Free Companies strong enough to hold enemy. Great thing about them is they can be stubborn when close enough, but if their role is simply to pay time and redirect opponent, would the just five models do that just fine? What I would consider is finding extra room for even more supporting elements to get just tiny bit of points away from Greatswords so unit is not simple egg basket for opponent.
More Archers, Hellblaster, or even Hurricanum can be great addition to this list!

[Noble Korhedron]

@Salsa: Why Archers? I understand the Hurricanum and Helblaster, but the reason I avoid archers except as redirectors or Wizard bunkers as I don't feel that their S3, non-AP fire is worth it's points. At least crossbows, even if they are move-or-fire, are 30" range and S4....

[Salsa]

Exactly for redirectors! They've great footage to cover huge areas for redirects and are really really flexible due being able to change formation on the march. What they do the best is preparing fair battles for yourself, less so for your opponent.
Their ability to shoot is simply a bonus and and focusing on shooting isn't what this list is really going for, 7 points from skirmishing model is great deal regardless.

[undivided.capital]

I choose FCM because they can hack and slash things that the greatswords get stuck on. Example: plaguebearers, my FCM with 2 attcks pass through more wounds which affects the percentage of ward saves made. I laid out the math above.

Also I forgot to mention to pay for the cannon I am playing with 30 GS not 40.

Our league is moving up to 2400 points though so I am very excited to get some wizard wagons involved!