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Author Topic: Way to fix the General..  (Read 8113 times)

Offline Grudgie

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Way to fix the General..
« on: August 23, 2009, 02:48:05 AM »
.. Leadership 10. Not that he needs any 'fixing'

I find it peculiar that LD 9 is so revered here. Playing most any other army ld 9 just seems so easy to come by, the troops being 8 on average, while the basic heroes being 9.

The General of the EMPIRE is about command & leadership & generalship I say. When first looking into The Empire, I was suprised they didn't have any LD 10 soruces.

Also let the Captian be LD 9. Twould be flufie

Grudgie

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2009, 05:22:04 AM »
Well there is one source, Karl Franz, but I see your point.

Actually a leadership 10 General would actually make him worth taking. You now have three options. Grand Master for fighting ability. Arch Lector for mix of magic and combat ability, and the General for pure leadership.
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Offline Ganymede

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2009, 07:06:56 AM »
Don't forget the Wizard Lord!

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2009, 08:10:39 AM »
I try not to think of those.
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Offline Lord 0

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2009, 09:34:24 AM »
I think I would like to see making the GotE a base of 9 with a potential upgrade to Ld 10 would be the way to go. Perhaps via one of those schools mentioned in the other thread. I would like to see it as a *possible* upgrade, but not necessarily one you would take all the time against all foes.

Goodness knows what some of the other upgrades would be to make you not want to take Ld 10 for anything other than flavour reasons though.

Offline Spiney

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2009, 12:11:15 PM »
Try to think a little outside of just "we want to make Empire awesome" when discussing this, there is no way a GotE should have ld 10, thats the highest Leadership possible in the game, theres no way that humans should be equal to elves and dwarfs in that respect, you've got to maintain some distinction between the warhammer races. Empire are designed to have average leadership, and they make up for it in other areas.

Besides, psychology is useless enough as it is in 7th at the moment without hiking the average Ld armies up to Ld10.

Maybe keep him at Ld 9, but extend his Ld bubble to 18" and let his unit reroll failed tests.

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Offline Grumbaki

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2009, 08:01:54 PM »
I'd keep him at Ld 9 and captains at 8. However, I'd throw in a new rule:

Commander: If a captain is in a unit with the State Troops rule then they may make 1 free reform a turn during the movement phase. A General may convey this to any unit with the State Troops rule within 12'' of him, which may include his own unit.

So he still gives Ld 9 (for a Ld 7 army that is good) and when using him there is a benefit to a) have rank and file and b) to keep the general near them. This works with the Empire fluff (if State Troops are disciplined enough to work with detachments, why shouldn't they be able to reform as well?).  It doesn't seem too overpowered to me either, especially as they can still be march blocked while at the same time giving some mobility to our blocks.

Either that, or...

Commander: A unit with a captain in it can re-roll failed panic tests. A unit with the general in it is immune to panic.

Toned down a bit from the above idea, but I can still see it being useful.
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Offline Mogsam

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2009, 01:08:26 PM »
They are disciplined to work with detachments. Which is good enough already. Giving them a free reform would just make them annoying to play against.

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Offline Grudgie

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2009, 08:52:29 PM »
Quote
Try to think a little outside of just "we want to make Empire awesome" when discussing this, there is no way a GotE should have ld 10, thats the highest Leadership possible in the game, theres no way that humans should be equal to elves and dwarfs in that respect, you've got to maintain some distinction between the warhammer races.

But remember, the other lords/heroes would still have LD 9/8. The Ld 10 for just The General could just be his 'thing'. Only the Grand Master has +1WS for example.

Grudgie

Offline Spiney

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2009, 12:48:28 PM »
They are disciplined to work with detachments. Which is good enough already. Giving them a free reform would just make them annoying to play against.

Mogsam

Granted, the problem with giving a free reform to any unit within 12" of the general is that it gives a seriously powerful bonus our ballistic troops which are all move-or-fire. As attractive an option as a free-reforming unit of Outriders would be... Still, it would be a powerful incentive to take the general, a bit over-powered for a captain though.

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Offline Vazaal

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2009, 05:25:32 PM »
General of the Empire
Same cost and stats, banner for statetroops + (new) one unit of statetroops may be upgraded to veterans at no aditional cost.
Veterans: +1LD (jup, that's all)

This would allow me to make a veteran unit. Like Company of Honour (Altdorf) and other.

A leadership boost of 1, no other boost. It's a small difference, but it's fluffy.

Offline commandant

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2009, 10:59:36 PM »
just let him give the state troops a banner up to 95 points and he is fixed

Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2009, 04:41:57 AM »
I like the idea of the General and captains being able to take little bonus skills, sort of like what some of the other armies have (VC, Brets, HE, OK, etc).

Something along the lines of:

Treacherous Knave: (Captain Only!) This character comes from a rather shady background.  His mundane weapons are considered poisoned.

Natural Born Leader: (General Only) If this character is the army general, his leadership radius is increased to 18 inches.

Huntsman:  If this character is armed with a bow, he may shoot as many times as he has attacks during the shooting phase.

Duellist: Character always strikes first in combat when using mundane weapons.  If using a great weapon, character strikes in normal initiative order, rather than striking last.

Eagle-Eye:  This character may ignore targeting restrictions as though he were using a hochland rong rifle (same rules apply).

Quote
just let him give the state troops a banner up to 95 points and he is fixed

Actually I was going to suggest a banner up to 75 pts.  There's no point in taking either the griffon banner or banner of sigismund on a too-easily-killed banner bearer.

On the other hand, allowing those banner sto be used by a unit of state troops would give our infantry some much needed staying power, and wouldn't require much more than a tiny rules tweak. 

It also avoids the 6th edition issue of always seeing the griffon banner in every army.  The reason the griffon banner was always there was that it was the only good banner we had.  With a choice between two different "quality" banners you'd see more variance. 

Rather than fix the banner issue, GW just got lazy and made them (and the General) entirely worthless.
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2009, 05:07:30 AM »
I'd also like to see the GotE bumped up to a 125 magic item allowance... along with a new magic item that gives us an extra dispell dice (or a non-wizard dispell scroll like the TK have). 

Because if we're not taking the lector, by god we need an extra dispell die or two (in the current environment).
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2009, 01:00:01 PM »
Make the General 150 points worth magic items so he can take the runefang AND a ward save so he becomes a decent choice. If you compare him to Chaos (100 points magic items AND 50 points chaos gifts) and vampires (100 points magic items AND 100 points vampire skills) and the Brets and dwarves he has no merit to him except that he is cheap.

I also say keep him at Ld9 but give him 18 inch command radius.

Offline wissenlander

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2009, 04:21:12 PM »
Reducing the cost of the Runefang would be plenty fine.  The 18 inch command radius has merit, since that's his shtick.
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Offline Rune

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2009, 02:51:57 PM »
Why not 15" LD radius?

Ld10 is over the top for sure, and 18" is also, well, a lot. Why not take middle ground?

And yeah, either a Ws of 6 or better magic banners, or preferrably both, would be a good addition to the General. There're only little things to fix here, but those little things would help a great lot with this character. Not perhaps new rules, but little tweaks here and there. Also I'd love that the mount and armour options would be equally priced with the captain set, since he really isn't a better fighter than a captain. Taking a mundane set of armour to boost it to 1+ save costs way more than taking Armour of Meteoric Iron, which is idiotic in my opinion, and surely overpriced for 'basic' protection for a mid level fighter. And certainly a low level lord character.

And pistols should be cheaper too. And other long range weapons.
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2009, 03:20:28 PM »
The banner improvement would be great, really.  Allowing for a boost of the main line troops would go a long way in giving him worth and bringing some needed stoutness to the army without making it over the top cheesy.
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Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2009, 03:23:07 PM »
And pistols should be cheaper too. And other long range weapons.

I agree. Our Generals are true Gentlemen, who fight wars in civilised manners.
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Offline Grudgie

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2009, 11:25:31 PM »
Quote
Duellist: Character always strikes first in combat when using mundane weapons.  If using a great weapon, character strikes in normal initiative order, rather than striking last. 

A great weapon strikes last in 'combats that are otherwise resolved in initiative order'. So if he strikes in initiative order while using the Great waepon, he is striking last.


Quote
Ld10 is over the top for sure

Is it? I was under the immpression the General was the least usefull of our lord choices. Would giving him a 'thing' that makes him better be so unheard of? Is it so over the top for a General of the Empire to have +1 leadership than an 8 point dwarf clansemen?

Grudgie


Offline Rune

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2009, 07:13:59 AM »
Quote
Ld10 is over the top for sure

Is it? I was under the immpression the General was the least usefull of our lord choices. Would giving him a 'thing' that makes him better be so unheard of? Is it so over the top for a General of the Empire to have +1 leadership than an 8 point dwarf clansemen?

Grudgie
In my opinion it is. Ld10 ei reserved for those races of a bit more epic scale than plain humans, and fluffwise I'm totally okay with this - here the older races would be elves and dwarves. And once again, the generals of Empire aren't always military leaders, but rather political leaders, and Ld9 is already reserved for some great leaders of Warhammer world. I'm talking about bretonnian lords, chaos lords and the such. Leadership of 10 should in my opinion be scattered around Warhammer scarcely.

The dwarves here are an exception, where I've always seen the Ld9 of every single dwarf more or less overkill. The issue of powercreep comes into discussion here once again - it shouldn't be the Empire that is compared to other armies in case of single and independent cases of game mechanics and unbalance, but other armies also compared to the Empire, and eachother. Where, for example, the deamons are just aweful overall, I wouldn't like to compare the Empire and their general competence to that of the deamons, and this is solely because in my opinion - and in the opinion of many of us I'm sure - the deamon book was a mistake. I would somewhat add the Dark elf book, or at least various single aspects of it, to a line where deamons stand.

So, basically, I'd be more than happy to give the lower classes of dwarf warriors Ld8, for example cannon crews (the stubborn is driving me nuts as it is...) and perhaps missile troops.

We should, in my opinion once again, try to find a role in fluff and game mechanics for all of our heroes and lords, and try to find good solutions to make each of them viable in their own ways. I really can't see why the GotE should be brought, especially with special rules that are too wide spread and used in warhammer circles as it is, to a level of combat skill of our Grand Master. Asking a question 'if this model has an option to this rule, why not then the other?' is sometimes a viable argument to say it's not worth it.

I've been personally wanting to ask this question many, many times considering the new skaven and dark elves for example... Ring of Hotek, pendant of Kaleth, Cauldron's 4+ ward and it's indestrucibleness, 'dodge' ward of skaven assassins and gutter runners -- I mean, WHY?!

Oh yeah, and I'm not even going to start with either of the Tzeentch lores, or other new chaotic lores. :-)


Runedit\\ Keeping things as simple as clean as possible is always one of the most important ways of balancing games, not adding special rules, but I might find one another 'set' idea feasible:

GotE as it is right now - 80 points
+20pts makes him a warrior general with +1WS, +1I and +1A
+20pts makes him a leading general with 15" LD-radius and increases the magic banner option to 60-70pts (depending on what kind of banners there are available)
+20pts might make him a political general, which adds you one Hero slot or one Special slot.

Or something like this? I mean, making things difficult is always a bad idea, and giving models special rules they don't really always need or deserve (when compared to other armies and models) isn't a way to go when you could always do something to the most basic of things - ie. stat lines, army structures and already existing special rules.

Then again, having these sorts of additions to the GotE build would render the grand master near useless. Maybe give additional army structure rules to the Grand master also? As in make one unit of IC-knights core when a Grand Master is present?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 07:25:48 AM by Rune »
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Offline Spiney

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2009, 02:03:03 PM »
The warrior general upgrade is pointless as we already hae the grandmaster who is just that. How about a general allows you to take one unit of Greatswords as core (much the same as a priest lets you take flaggies as core)

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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2009, 09:02:26 AM »
wouldn't that be handled by the political general option? essentially.
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Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2009, 05:00:19 AM »
Quote
wouldn't that be handled by the political general option? essentially.

Not necessarily, remember that greatswords are a generals and counts supposed bodyguard.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Way to fix the General..
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2009, 05:47:31 PM »
Just give the Empire some decent 50 points banners for our state troops when lead by GotE.
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