home

Author Topic: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen  (Read 7870 times)

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« on: April 12, 2010, 11:34:18 PM »
This is the draft thread for the W-E Tactica against Beastmen.  PhillyT is currently working on it.  If you have comments for the things posted here, go ahead.  Any help will be appreciated.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2010, 01:30:51 AM »
Here are some of the unit overviews:

Chaos Hounds:  The fast moving core choice for Beasts, these MV7 US2 beasts are made for flanking and to be used in concert with the gor and ungor blocks or chariots.  While they are WS and I 4, they are completely lacking in both offense and defense, with S3 and T3 with no AS.  They will rarely cause wounds.  This forces them into their flanking role, since they are not even capable of chasing off fast cavalry with any regularity.  They have the ability to be upgrade dwith scaly skin saves of 6+ or poison, neither of which is worth spending the points on.

Imperial Response:  Shoot them, stab them, breath on them.  Individually, the Empire army can beat hounds with free company in a pinch.  Normally hounds will be trying to get flanks or to war machine crew.  Force them to confront something else or shoot them if you have the small arms available to do so.  Another great tactic is to charge them with knights or another fast moving unit to force them back into the Beastman lines where they can cause panic.


Chariots:  The ubiquitous chariot is one of the mainstays of a good beastman army.  As a core choice, the opportunity to deploy large numbers of them means that the variety of army types and tactics increases exponentially.  With a WS5, one S5 and a S4 attack, coupled with two S4 attacks from the tuskers, the chariot can pack a heavy punch.  The chariot has lost its mark of chaos undivided and its scythes, meaning it is far less able to stick around if forced to take a panic test.  The unit is fairly cheap and can be deployed in hordes for a rather nasty core assault force.

Imperial Response:  If there are no better targets on the board, cannon shots into chariots is a great choice.  The price per unit is low, but destroying a chariot is never a bad option when the large monsters and flank minotaur units are no longer available.  Handgun shots or helblasters will also remove them with ease, but remember that a chariot with a single wound left can still be a massive headache for an imperial line.    Knights can be strong anti chariot attackers too.  In all cases, Imperial generals must be aware that that chariots come in packs.  If you have one on the way, two more will probably be nearby.  Watch your charges with knights, and don’t let a trio of chariots near your line since they will break almost anything an Empire army can deploy.

Specials:

Minotaur:  The Minotaur are a fluffy and powerful unit within the beastman list, used as the hammer for the normally soft or flexible beastman army.  While hounds, harpies, ungor skirmishers, and Centigor run along the edges, move amongst the woods and forest, or scale the rocks searching for an opportunity, the minotaur run straight in, barreling into the enemy ranks where their great axes and rend the enemy into the dirt.  The threat of a unit of minotaur on the front make the unit of beastmen moving on the side look like a far less dangerous opponent.  Unfortunately, this is exactly what the beastman player wants you to think.
Minotaur can be given either great axes, shields, or additional hand weapons.  While another attack on their 3 attack profile is nice, almost every time, as is the norm when there is a choice, the great weapon will be placed in the minotaur’s mitts.  The power of 3 S7 attacks, backed by WS4, is too much.  Add the impact hit of S5 that each minotaur gives and you have a horror show.  With 4 models, this is a vicious 12 S7 swings and 4 automatic S5, which can be combined nicely with flankers which the army can field with great regularity.  While this would seem to be enough, the fact that the unit gets Blood Greed, which gives the unit frenzy when it wins combat and an additional attack for each round it wins after the first, and you have a terrifying combat machine that gets better as time passes.  The downside of this monster unit is the Bloodgreeds side effect:  minotaur can only overrun or pursue 1d6” which is godaweful.   

Imperial Response:  Combat against these monsters is impossible with anything but Steam Tanks, and even then, the minotaurs will generally do enough attacks back to render the Steam Tank useless for the remainder of the game.  Shooting with cannons, helblasters, handguns, or crossbows are the rules of engagement.  Using pistoleers on the flank and gunning away is a very strong tactic.  Using knights is not advised, since the minotaur will normally shrug off the attacks of a few lances and drop their vicious S7 attacks on the poor souls.  That moves the normally awesome AS of the knights to 5+ which is shockingly mortal.  You could also use cheap detachments to draw the slow minotaur away from the battle where you can rake them with more missle fire until they fall.


Centigor:  Centigor had one of the most frenzied rumor mills in the lead up to the new 7th edition book.  Would they be fast cavalry?  Would they have bows and offer beastmen a missile weapon to kill the enemy from afar?  Would they be core?  When the book arrived, things settled quickly down to earth.  No, they are not fast cavalry, no they cannot have bows.  What arrived was a S4 T4 unit with M8 and 2 attacks at WS4.  Add the ability to give them throwing axes and the likelihood that they will be frenzied some of the time and you have a compact, maneuverable alternative for an average cost.
   While their price is low and their hitting ability is high, it can be problematic to field them when minotaur take up the same slot and are significantly harder hitting.  Both of these are valid arguments. The centigor are better at hitting units, since they have a longer charge range.  They are also far better after beating a unit since they can pursue and overrun 3d6 rather than 1d6.   In addition, against the Empire, the unit can be used with considerable efficiency.  While Chaos Hounds are not likely to survive charges into knights, fast cavalry, or detachments, the one S5 and one S4 attack of the Centigor on the charge make them a real threat, with 11 possible attacks on a 125mm frontage.  Still, they are very uncommon on the tabletop due to the price of the models.

Imperial Response:  Charge them with knights, shoot them with crossbows or handguns.  Outriders or pistoleers will make short work of them as well.  Standing and shooting can be a very strong reaction since they come in small unit sizes with no real AS.

Bestigor:  The most powerful of the Beastman infantry, the Bestigor offer WS 4, S and T of 4, and heavy armor and a great weapon.  Their high movement means they will often get the charge off.  They have the ability to gain combat resolution for each banner they take and are the only unit that can take a magic banner, and the army has plenty of great ones.  They have lost a little bit since last edition, namely the ability to take marks and a point of weaponskill.  They will normally only be seen as the carrier for a doombull or gorebull, who will make them absolutely awesome as he grants them frenzy.  In the case of the gorebull battle standard bearer, they will often be seen with the banner of strength, giving all of them S7 and 2 attacks.  That’s a nasty unit when combined with the d3 S6 impact hits and 5 S7 attacks the Gorbull has.

Imperial Response:  Shooting with helstorms, mortars, and helblasters or using any small arms to weaken the unit is a great start.  Bestigor untis are very expensive and well worth removing.  A flank from a unit of knights or the steam tank will finish the job.  They are in no way protected from psychology unless frenzied by the gorebull or doombull, so panic can be used to scare them off.  Do not engage them with infantry, since they will grind most into the dirt.  If they are not led by a minotaur, they will most likely have a wargor or beastlord with them meaning they will almost always get their hatred rolls.
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

  • Members
  • Posts: 10167
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2010, 02:25:58 PM »
Two minor additions:

First imperial response to minotaurs:

What works really great on units like these is a flank charge a 10 strong swordsmen detachment managed to destroy a full unit of khorne blood hounds during a game  last tournament. With 4 attacks S 7 the minotaurs usually manage two kills but with flanking and a rank you are still in a draw if you manage a wound even win the fight. Knights in the flank of minotaurs even could manage to kill a single one and win the combat by a large margin.

second:

don´t Centigor get +2 Strength with two handed weapon due to some funky special rule?

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2010, 06:29:14 PM »
No, they count as mounted for some silly reason, meaning nobody uses GW since it is only S5 like the spear.  I will add the flank charge bit!  Thanks.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline anvalous

  • Members
  • Posts: 635
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2010, 05:18:16 PM »
Centigors just have a profile of S4 and A2.  On the charge with spears, they have 2 S5 attacks.  Further, they are specifically stated as having a save of 4+.  Not great, but on par with the best thing the beastmen have available.

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2010, 12:44:26 AM »
Good catch.  This was pulled from the 6th edition beastman tactica I had started.  Should be plenty of such misses as we go!

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline drew

  • Members
  • Posts: 42
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2010, 06:27:54 PM »
don´t Centigor get +2 Strength with two handed weapon due to some funky special rule?
depends which tactics ghorros warhoof you use, one says strength five with great weapons, the other strength 6. Both are from GW and can be found on their forum; the herdstone.
(I also play as beastmen)

Offline red bull

  • Members
  • Posts: 956
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2010, 04:37:50 PM »
I don't lnow much, but a friend told me never charge Khrazak the one eye with a horde unit.

The reason for this,he carrries a whip which gives him as many attacks as the enemy unit frontage.
No matter how good a general you are; if the dice are against you, you will not win.

My new stories http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=36076.0
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=36981.0

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2010, 12:59:00 PM »
Very true.  That is one of the few times he is better than his normal A score.  Actually, in many cases, he will have 5 or 6 attacks, depending on the enemy.

Looking at what we have so far, I can see alot of changes ahead as BEastmen have been turned sidewise in comparison to the 7th edition rule set.  They are much, much better now...

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline red bull

  • Members
  • Posts: 956
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2010, 10:02:24 PM »
As are we. I think...
No matter how good a general you are; if the dice are against you, you will not win.

My new stories http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=36076.0
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=36981.0

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2010, 01:02:27 AM »
Indeed!

I attempted to enlist help from The Herdstone.  They have not returned any responses.  That isn't surprising.  While they have a good mod and Admin community, they have hardly any members.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline drew

  • Members
  • Posts: 42
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2011, 06:15:36 PM »
I'm a member on the forum, but my activity has somewhat decreased.

Offline malladin_ben

  • Members
  • Posts: 162
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2011, 08:29:41 AM »
Hi guys,

I've just started coming back to the site after a pretty long absence, but though as I play Beastmen as well as Empire I might be able to help out.

Here's some ideas....

Common character builds:

1. Super-killy Doombull
Whenever I use a doombull I tool him up to be a killing machine. This build is quite a common suggestion on internet forus and all the other beastmen players I know use it (when they use a doombull). The build is to give your doombull the sword of swift slaying, heavy armour, shield, the gnarled hide gift (5+ scaly skin), the ramhorn helm and the dawnstone. This gives the doombull a 1+ rerollable armour save and any successful saves gives him a free hit back. He also has 1d3 S6 impact hits and 6xS6 ASF I5 attacks in the first round of combat. If he wins combat he gets even more attacks. There's room in the magic items points spend left to get him the Other Trickster's shard too, making him capable of taking out warded characters without too much bother too. Oh, and he's got five wounds to get through before you can finish him off.

Ways to deal with him: If there's one army I wouldn't use this character against it'd be the empire. With so many cannons about he would have to hide in a minotaur unit (this built is so strong against conventional shooting and even magic missiles that he can be found running around solo), and that's going to cut into your points allocation for proper units (which minotaurs aren't IMO - I'll get to them later). Shoot him with cannons, death magic (he's only Ld8) and the lore of metals (but mainly cannons). If all else fails, the old arch lector/wizard lord with the VHS should do the job too.

2. Killy Great Shaman
Whilst not quite Chaos Sorcerer material, beastmen have the capability to create some quite combat ready wizards. A great bray shaman (GBS) can be armed with an additional hand weapon and for 20 points can get a tentacle that gives him an extra attack and a magic item that gives him extra power dice for every wound caused. Give him a 4+ ward save and you've got a pretty killy character - 4xS4 attacks, 3xT5 wounds protected by a 4+ ward. Add to that you can put him in a unit with the BSB build I will describe below) and those attacks are at S5. If he's a L4 beasts shaman he can probably also add +3A/+3S to that to really mince things.

Ways to deal with him: this shaman will be in a big unit, so is not really a candidate for cannons. Death magic is a possibility, but as he might be S5, T5 and Ld 9 you might struggle even with that. Using the seal of destruction and casket of sorcery to try and get rid of Savage Beast of Horros will severely limit his style, and a killy character with the other trickster's shard could work too.

Anyway, work is about to start so I'll pop back later to spill some more beans.

Cheerio,

Ben

Offline malladin_ben

  • Members
  • Posts: 162
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2011, 10:17:10 AM »
Here's a few more:

Beastbanner BSB:
The beastbanner is a pretty nice magic standard for Beastmen - it gives the bearer's unit +1S, so it can transform a mediocre unit of gors into a pretty lethal unit that hits with a  torrent of attacks. The cheapest way (and hence the most common) to get this is with a wargor (a standard beastmen hero-level character). It's an expensive magical banner, so you can't get any magic items, but unlike our pathetic BSBs he can be given a shield, and with that and heavy armour and the 5+ scaly skin gift he can be a T5, 1+ save BSB and still legal. Even at it's cheapest its a 200 point 2W target with no ward save. Alternatively you can put a similar build on Gorebull (minotaur hero) which gives it 2 extra wounds and a bit more punch, but then you either have to put the bonus on to a Minotaur unit (not bad in itself as your minotaurs are now S6 and can swap out the usual GWs for AHWs for even more killiness).

How to deal with it: The main problem with this build isn't the character itself, but the buffing effect it has on the unit it is with. A sensible general will protect them by putting them on the corner of a big horde unit of Gors to make them difficult to target with lots of attacks (a cheesy one will even spend a turn reforming to get him into a second rank). They will never accept a challenge with this characterand quite hapily forego their 3x S5 attacks with him if they think he's in any danger from the unit. A way I have found works against me (although I can be on the impetuous side) is to charge with a small, narrow, sacrificial unit that might tempt the general to make way with his BSB from corner so that he can do some hitting, and then when the unit overruns or pursues you can have the second unit target as many attacks into him as they can manage - brilliant if it is a unit that hits a bit harder to break through his high AS. Death magic seems an obvious one too: his high S and T (both 5 due to the banner's buff) limit its effectiveness slightly, but you only ned to do 2 wounds and he has no ward.

If you're faced with the Gorebull version instead, if he's with gors you've got a perfect cannonball target. If he's with minotaurs he's probably still vulnerable to cannon fire as there'd have to be 5 rank and file (excluding the unit champion) for him to get his look out sir roll. If he's in a big unit of minotaurs then that's probably got all the points in his army in it so you just need to target the unit with everything until you can hit him with cannon fire.

Scouting Shaman Chariot Switcheroo Combo:
This is a tactic I've heard of but neither seen nor tried myself (I don't have the models to do it... yet). The basic premise uses a combo of the Lore of Shadow attribute effect and the "skin of man" magic item that allows a shaman to scout. For the job to work you also need a hitty beastlord in a charriot too. Put a low level shaman with lore of shadow into a chariot with the skin of man and then scout him into a fairly threatening position. They let you go first and then surprisingly charge you with the shaman. When the shaman then casts any lore of shadow spell he can swap with a friendly character of the same troop type, and all of a sudden you're in combat with the killy beastlord and his (probably) tuskgor chariot.

How to deal with it: Shoot the beastlord's chariot with cannons before he gets his turn. Dispel anything that wizard casts in the first turn.


Offline malladin_ben

  • Members
  • Posts: 162
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2011, 01:10:32 PM »
Magic:
Beastmen shamans have access to the lores of Death, Shadow, Beasts and their own signature lore "The Wild". Purple Sun aside, there is very little on any of these lores that is overtly scary. However, this is the beastmen general's greatest strength. Most beastmen units fall into the mediocre combat troops category. There's high toughness and decent (if not great) WS, but very little armour. On a even playing field they get their butts kicked by the elite infantry in most armies. However, an important part a clever beastmen general's strategy it to weight combats in their favour through judicious use of buffs and hexes, and between Beasts, Shadow and Death, not to mention their various ways of boosting their magic dice, they have plenty of tools to ensure they can manage it.

For example, let's take Gors against Greatswords. Initially speaking your greatswords should cope with them nicely. Assuming you're both in horde formation, you've got 30x S5 attacks and a 4+ AS compared to their 40x S3 attacks, both hitting each other on 4s (they kill 7 or 8, you kill 10 back). However, throw a beast banner, wyssans wild form and miasma into the mix and suddely you're being hit on 3s and wounded on 2s and only have a 6+ AS. Given that they'll probably also have hatred with those attacks, you're likely to suffer 24-25 wounds before you get to hit back. Then you might even be hitting back on 5s (miasma roll dependent) and will be wounding on 4s. Lets say you had a unit of 50, you'd still have your attacks back cut into - you might only be able to do 4 wounds back! You start to see how beastmen can start to go toe to toe with some of the biggest nastiest units out there.

Beastmen don't have a great deal of shooty magic to worry about, but there are some combos to watch out for, mainly involving the use of The Withering in conjunction with one of two low strength magic missiles: the 2d6 S3 one on the lore of Beasts and the 5d6 S1 one on the lore of the wild (which also comes as a power level 3 bound spell item, so doesn't have to rely on the lore to get access to it, which is good because most of the rest of the lore is bobbins). There's also the amber spear to worry about, which could be used to take out a war machine like a cannonball.

Then you get to their power dice. The Herdstone (a scenery generating item, like the folding fortress) allows them to generate one extra power dice for every shaman within 6" of it. A tactic I regularly use is to have 3-4 L1 shamans (all beasts or shadow with the sig spells from their lores) in a unit of ungors hanging around at the back to keep safe. getting +4 power dice regulalry is fantastic! However, that's not all they get: there's also the Jagged Dagger item I mentioned in the killy shaman build, and the fact that going offensive with Death magic can add extra dice to your power pool too.

Ways to deal with it: Having good shooting, you've got a decent chance to target the ungors and do enough damage to make them flee in panic. Preist Spam and rod of power work a treat too, as you really need those extra dispel dice (the beastmen general's best magic dice roll is often a double 4, as they'll have 12 dice to your 4). Even then, many of his spells are so easy to cast and he can have multiple chances to cast as he has the same sig spell on two wizards. You need to be very careful about what you choose to dispel and what to let through. Try to do some quick sums in your head to see whether the spells are going to swing the tide of a battle against you, and whether that is worth risking one of your warmachines, or a purple sun attack, for.

Cheerio for now,

Ben


Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2011, 04:28:03 PM »
Great info!  I will compile things and get my own butt in gear to get my BEastman stuff ready.
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline malladin_ben

  • Members
  • Posts: 162
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2011, 10:05:33 AM »
Here's some additions to the notes about uits:

Core Units:
As a general rule of thumb, a lot of beastmen armies will tend to run the 25% minimum core line to the absolute limit. Other than the gors, most units have a better equivalent in special or rare.

Gors:
As I've mentioned under magic, Gors are a mediocre unit most of the time. They work best, and are hence most frequently seen, with AHW. This gives them a lot of attacks, and given that with Inspiring Presence and BSBs in the vicinity they're almost definitely going have hatred rerolls every turn and higher WS than most Empire troops, they hit a lot. At basic, that's only S3 attacks, but they are very easy to buff, especially with the Beast Banner BSB.

Imperial Response: I tend to think that swordsmen would be the best unit to throw up against them. With their higher-than-usual (for empire) WS and reasonable armour save against S3 attacks, and parry, they should hold their own reasonably well.  The real key to defeating a Gor unit, however, is to limit their buffs as much as possible, paying key attention to what spells dispel and trying to target the Beast Banner BSB. Without an armour save crossbows seem more appropriate than hanguns and, given that they usually operate in blocks of 40+, a good hit from a mortar will hurt them, too.

Chariots:
Chariots are commonly seen, but not because they're great, but because they're better than the other core options. Razorgors and spawns do anything a chariot does better, and more, so they are usually only used to bulk out core points allotment. Chariots provide good flank protection and second-round supporting charges to tip the balance of a battle, especially if they can get in the side. I have also used them successfully to chase down small harrying units, for whom d6 S5 impact hits will cause a problem.

Imperial response: Phil has this covered.

More to follow,

Ben

Offline malladin_ben

  • Members
  • Posts: 162
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2011, 01:10:48 PM »
Ungors:
Ungors come in two types: rank and file infantry armed with hand weapons or spears and/or shields, and skirmishing scouts with bows. Ungors have basically the same stat line as state troopers, just M5 but Ld6, and don't get the armour or weapon upgrades.

The non-skirmishers are the same cost as state troopers, too, but that's without upgrades, you kind of get the idea that they're really an over-costed unit. Okay, they could have hatred, but that's just a warrior priest away for empire too. Generally speaking, expect to see narrow blocks, designed to stick around with steadfast. A common tactic with herdstone players is to sit at the back next to the herdstone and use them as a wizard bunker.

Response: I think we have plenty of tools to deal with these guys. They're not scary for any of our troops, and if they're being used as a wizard bunker, make an ideal target for mortar fire, as they're probably low leadership and likely to get out of range of teh general and the BSB fairly quickly.

One strategy with ungors (although I doubt it will be much trouble for empire) is to stick some spearmen behind a unit with a doombul, gorebull BSB and another gorebull, all with big AS and ward saves. The three characters stick in the front of the unit and do most of the damage, whilst the spearmen act as spare wounds for shooting attacks and chipping in with 12 spear attacks from behind and providing a chunk of spare ranks to give steadfast bonuses. The main point about this strategy is to get the ontaur characters into combat. The trouble with the strategy is that it takes up practically all your character points allotment, so your whole army is lower leadership and lacking the magic punch it can otherwise muster.

Response: Shoot the mino characters with cannon fire - they've given up their look out sir roll to hang around with the little guys. give it a massive steadfast unit to chomp on whilst you chargethe flank with something nasty to chew up the ungors and beats it's steadfast.

Offline Kalgarh

  • Members
  • Posts: 8
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2011, 09:12:15 PM »
Great read Malladin. Thank you. Beastmen sounds like a fun army to fight since some small arms are actually useful against them!

Offline malladin_ben

  • Members
  • Posts: 162
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2011, 05:17:01 PM »
Ungor Raiders:
Ungor raiders are skirmishing scouting ungors, for 6 points a pop they're not bad, and with a minimum unit size of 5 you can get a nice cheap throwaway unit for harrying and warmachine hunting. However, the trouble is that harpies do this job so much better that they're probably not often used.

Imperial Response: They're T3 with no armour and Ld6 - it doesn't take much shooting to send them running away. Target them with small detachment fire or a low magic dice magic missle. As with any scouting unit, deploy your battle line spread wide so that they're no gaps to let them in at your flanks.

Warhounds:
Chaos warhounds are absolutely pointless in a beastmen army. Not only are they the same price as ungor raiders, but lack the ability to skirmish and scout, have no ranged attack and a point less leadership. An extra 2" movement hardly seems enough to compensate for this. Add to this the fact that they don't even count towards your minimum points of core and there's absolutely no point for a beastman general to field them. The only thing they have that very little else in the army has are poisoned attacks, but there's nothing in an empire army that poisoned melee attacks are a risk to.

Imperial response: Low leadership and likely small unit size make them another ideal target for small detachment fire.

Now on to the special units...

Special

Minotaurs:
Minotaurs are a classic glass cannon of a unit. They hit hard - really hard as far as any empire troops are concerned, but (if armed with GWs) are 20 points per T4 wound! Some strategies I've seen used are to front load the unit with characters built to survive. The ability to but a magic item with the champion and include a couple of characters with decent magic protection (see the doombull build above) means that you have to target your attacks against the characters or champion and so limit the wounds that they can have caused against them, whilst 9x S7 (with GW) attacks from the back rank can hit through with impunity. With 1d3 S6 impact hits and 1d3+1 S5 impact hits, plus the Doombull's ASF attacks you're going to take a beating before you get to hit back. Each round of combat they win gives them an extra +1A, too. Against spears or halberds, expect them to kill about 19-20. Against swordsmen or greatswords your higher WS might reduce that by 2 or 3, and the swordsmen's parry save an extra 3. And then watch out for the ramhorn helm and the extra attacks you could end up suffering even more wounds. However, when they do break a unit, they only run 1d6, so that provides some opportunities for counter charges.

Now that I've shown you how deadly that unit is you're probably wondering why I have previously mentioned having reservations about them.  This strategy is such an incredible points sink that it really limits the rest of your army's capabilities. Minotaurs characters lack the Ld of Beastlords and have no wizards, and are really expensive. If you use this strategy you can't use the herdstone and can't have a nice Ld10 general, and you've got all your points in one unit that is really vulnerable to missile fire.

Imperial Resonse: Firstly - open fire all weapons!! this unit is a top priority to finish off before combat. A cannonball can take out 2 a turn, including potential characters! However, if it manages to get into combat, how can you deal with it? Tempting as it may be to try and tie this unit up with a steamtank, especially if you can get them to charge you and have the impact hits bounce back, with so many S7 attacks I think they're going to cause even the stank some trouble (even 5 SP worth of grind would probably only do 5 wounds, so you've only cut down their attacks by 3 and are still looking at 22 S7 attacks and will expect 3 or 4 wounds that you need a 5+ to save!). A Stank might hold it for a turn or 2, but will soon become useless. Flank and rear charges work well because you get to hit into the weedy unit rather than the protected characters. However, they will still kick out a ton of damage, so you'll need some big stalwart units in the fight so that you don't end up running away.

That's all for now, but I'll keep going.

Cheerio,

Ben

Offline malladin_ben

  • Members
  • Posts: 162
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2011, 08:15:07 PM »
Centigors:
My initial impression of Centigors was that they're not worth the points, especially when you've got Razorgors and bestigors competing for the same points. However, in recent weeks I've been thinking more seriously about trying them out. The main reason is Ghorros Warhoof, a special character who counts as a unit champion, but also makes Centigors count as core if you choose him. Therefore gone are your struggles as a beastmen army to fill your core points allowance as you can spend 155 points on Ghorros and potentially your entire core allowance on Centigors. Then you've got either a big enough unit of centigors to do some real damage, or a number of 5-man ones to run round harrying with S5 throwing axes to really annoy your enemy. Unfortunately they're not fast cavalry, so my bet is on the former strategy rather than the latter (can I get away with a 750 point horde of 30 of them?), but I have heard of a chap over at the warseer forums who makes the latter work.

Anyway, the details - they've got 2 WS4 S4 attacks and are T4 with a 4+ AS. Get Ghorros and they become WS5 too! You can also but them throwing axes and/or greatweapons. I think both options seem quite tasty options, but they do hike up the price if you want a large unit. They also have a special "drunken" rule that gives them +2 I, Stubborn or rerolls to their primal fury. The stubborn seems nice, and the rerolls not bad if you find yourself out of range of the BSB, but the +2 I wasted if you take GWs.

Imperial response: Given their decent T but low AS, hangunners might not be too bad at range, likewise the volley gun or rockets (the latter especially if its a nice big unit). I suspect the mortar and cannon will have better targets, though. In combat I think you need to be careful of the punch of two relatively high WS high S attacks. In combat, the stank'll probably do a good job at locking down a big unit (and therefore a lot of points) in place long enough for you to charge their flank and do some real damage, however, watch out for Ghorros as he has 4x S5 attacks and does d3 wounds, so if he's lucky he could do some damage.

Cheerio for now,

Ben

Offline Doomduck1988

  • Members
  • Posts: 37
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2011, 09:49:55 PM »
Indeed!

I attempted to enlist help from The Herdstone.  They have not returned any responses.  That isn't surprising.  While they have a good mod and Admin community, they have hardly any members.

Phil
The herd stone has a good amount of beasts in it's ranks, it's just that they would rather eat you then help you with tactics

Offline Doomduck1988

  • Members
  • Posts: 37
Re: Tacticas for W-E: Beastmen
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2011, 10:20:54 PM »
No one has mentioned harpies yet. As a long, long time beast player these are one of the best additions to the new beast book.these guys ( or should I say gals) are used to hunt war machines and flank,  2 attack at I5 is going to kick human butt, not to mention they can scout so there going to be on you ASAP! Best thing you can do is have a small unit of shooters or a Killy hero near the war machines to protect them.