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Author Topic: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)  (Read 14211 times)

Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2013, 02:30:26 PM »
Please try once more, it should work now.
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Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2013, 11:56:35 PM »
They deployed their chariot on the far right.

I deployed the GS and Halb det in our primary position beside the idol in the west.





I didn't like the way the various normal Griffon formations were coming out over there in that tight spot in the west.  I decided not to put the Archers over there because:

--One, I didn't want the Archers in front because then the GS wouldn't be within 6 inches of the Idol and I don't want to miss out on the idol buffs, especially if we don't get the first turn and they lob a Hellcannon shot on us after getting off Doom and Dark.

--Two, I didn't like the Archer parent behind the GS because the Wiz isn't really safe back there if the DP makes it to the GS.  He could launch vortexes through combat and his direct damage nukes would have free reign on the wiz bunker in his LOS, out of combat

--Three, the Archer diverters don't work as well against multiple fliers and likely might get in the way.

--Last, but not least, the enemy team was just waiting for me to drop those archers so they would know where the Griffon was forming up.  They ended up dropping their chariot on the right flank in response where it would be better suited in the west or center.  Better than nothing!

So, I know I broke some of your hearts by not forming the normal Griffon.  But look at it this way-  I formed something else that has a nice ring to it-  a Steel Griffon!   The Archers replaced by Knights, Outriders, and a STank!   :wink:

When I Vanguard those Outriders the GS will be supported in a formation that looks about like this:


 

 :::cheers:::
HHG
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Offline librisrouge

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2013, 12:30:14 AM »
If only because you called it a Steel Griffon (which must hereby always be bolded) I love that formation.
Much like Communism, a level three wizard is a waste of everyone's time and will, in due course, fail miserably.

Offline Harshey

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2013, 02:29:27 AM »
If we get the first turn a hell cannon/chimera cannon shot is looking like a good high reward shot.

Offline George

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2013, 06:01:29 AM »
Remember this day guys....cause one day you'll be able to say you were there when the first Steel Griffon was deployed....you were part of the team that conceived the Steel Griffon....you helped the empire become the army everyone fears, all because of the Steel Griffon  :biggriin:
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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2013, 08:29:25 AM »
Still looking good. Much better to be flexible than to stick to some preconceived notion! As you say, it's not as if all those units suddenly have a different role or none at all.

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Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2013, 09:55:37 AM »
Here is the map before our Vanguard move.





I was expecting him to drop the Chimera and DP as close to the GS as he could.  Instead, he put them in survival positions....and now I am rethinking my Vanguard. 

The west one stays the same-  move in front of the GS to clear out some chaff.  The east one I was going to have more of a direct south orientation so I could shoot at stuff in the middle of the board....now I am thinking about facing southeast because the DP is coming around the corner-  and if he wants to charge the Outriders fine...but he is taking a 1/6 chance of death at that point.

Let me know what you think!



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Offline SevenSins

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2013, 12:26:20 PM »
Is ok by me

Now let's get it on!

Offline gds1978

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2013, 02:32:17 PM »
Using the snow drift to screen the outriders seems like solid play to me, I say go for it.

I'm away this weekend, back Sunday evening so I won't be checking back in until then, good luck

Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2013, 02:47:04 PM »
Looks good. They should be able to kill some chaff there or even threaten the DP, depending on how the magic phase goes. However, unless that thing is down to one wound or the Archers kill them first I would prefer to have them shoot dogs so the ICK have a shot at the Chariot. But I'm getting ahead of things. Let's see how the rest turns out. Just make sure someone takes off the Charmed Shield first.
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Offline librisrouge

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2013, 03:18:41 PM »
Sound reasoning, what would they be in range of if we get first turn?
Much like Communism, a level three wizard is a waste of everyone's time and will, in due course, fail miserably.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2013, 07:36:14 PM »
Sound reasoning, what would they be in range of if we get first turn?

West Outs have all his stuff in the west in range....I relooked at the east Outs based on your comment and decided to tweak them slightly to face the Nurgle Warriors so they could hit 'em with a 1st turn volley and still be protected by the snow drift!

Check out the Battle thread for how it looks.  We got the 1st turn, got Nurgle's Blessing off the Idol, and generated 4 Steam on the STank with no issues.  I will give you a map chip of my initial movement thoughts for your input here in a few...

Looking forward to getting this party started!!!!
HHG
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

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Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2013, 08:56:35 PM »
STank got an awesome 6&5 for movement on 2 SP and moved straight towards the Hellcannon & Chimera!   :evil:

Team Empire, here is what I am thinking:





In the West:

--Knights move up
--GS & Halb det move up slightly
--Everything is more than 18 inches away from the Chariot.  He will need 11s on a charge

West plan:  shoot the dogs, eventually kill the Chariot.  The GS are in a position to push forward against whatever remains to come around the south side of the idol, or if necessary, reform to the east and move around the back side of the idol depending on how they move to engage us.

In the Center:

--Stay out of easy charge range (needs 11s or 12s right now)
--If he charges the ICK with his Knights, they flee.  He may then charge the ICK with his DP but we will flee again and should have room to stay on the board and not run over our own units.  This would cause failed charges with the Knights and DP...keeping them moving slow.
--Be prepared to have escape routes if the DP jumps right in the middle of everything
--Have the possibility of multi-charge options if he moves max distance forward-  in this case with the STank and 2 Knight blocks
--Wiz will blast Chim with a boosted Shems; STank will take a shot at the Hellcannon.

Center plan: Harass and delay while our shooting & magic cause some damage. 

In the East:

--This is all about shooting and attrition on all his eastern units, keeping his chaff out of the battle.


What are your thoughts?  Am I missing anything?  Something you would do differently?

 :::cheers:::
HHG
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 09:07:31 PM by Holy Hand Grenade »
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Offline librisrouge

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2013, 03:20:46 AM »
I agree with your plan except two points:
  • Perhaps we shouldn't move the ICKs so close to the enemy. I don't think our enemies are of the caliber to fall for that move, they know that they need to close with those two unit fast so are more likely to go for a faster movement. By hugging the southern end of the snow bank we set ourselves up for a charge on the Chaos knights if they go forward but don't risk being charged ourselves. Plus, it should take us outside of the Daemon Princes range of threat.
  • Are Hellcannons Daemons? Seems like they should be if they aren't. If they are, we should throw that boosted Shem's its way to get the most out of it and, hopefully, ensure a speedy kill to that damnable thing.

Pseudo third point, any chance we can try to setup that cannon shot to hit both the Hellcannon AND the Chimera? If the Shem's gets off that cannonball might finish the beast (assuming the Shem's doesn't do it) and then hurt the Chimera.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 03:22:54 AM by librisrouge »
Much like Communism, a level three wizard is a waste of everyone's time and will, in due course, fail miserably.

Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2013, 07:02:52 AM »
Overall that's fine with me. He's unlikely to reach the western knights, right? They wouldn't really have the option to flee, although I think they will rather try to set up the dogs for a good countercharge with the chariot.

Are the central archers in a position to deny the flyers a spot to land in the GS's flank?

The Steam Tank looks already brilliantly poised to take off wounds from both monsters. Yes, the Hellcannon is considered a Deamon - it has the special rule "daemonic construct" (4+ AS, 5++ ward) and daemonic attacks, and the first line of its description starts with "The HC is part daemon, part machine..."

The ICK...hmm. It shows I have little experience with small units of Knights. Won't they get in the way of the Outriders? It looks as if they could shoot at his Knights though. No easy kills either but that could be an option.

Anyways,


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Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2013, 10:37:39 AM »
Great questions and comments!  I am going to take the time to answer them before we move on because this is half of the reason for the TEG-  exchanging tactics and ideas!

  • Perhaps we shouldn't move the ICKs so close to the enemy.
I knew this move would probably be the one that some wouldn't like.  My reasons are pretty complicated, but here we go:

--Those small Knight units primary purpose is harassment, secondary is killing minor stuff.
--By themselves, those two Knight units don't pose a threat to his units in the center of the board, as long as he keeps them in his forward arcs.
--The two Knight units do pose a threat to his Chaos Knights if he give one of them a flank and he gets double-charged.
--Those two Knight units are situated in such as way that his Chaos Knights have to do one of three things:
          --Move forward but keep both units in forward arc (serves our purpose because Knight unit is slowed)
          --Move forward max distance but give ICK his flank (unless his DP gets in the way, we have a combo-charge)
          --Charge the ICK (in which case we flee as described earlier;  Chaos Knights are then slowed down)
--Besides all that stuff, it gets the ICK involved in the action.  If we keep the ICK way back, it gives him an opportunity to move all his eastern stuff up.  The ICK will spend most of the game flirting around with them.
--Last-  it gives Team Chaos a unit to focus on.  If I keep everything back, they can start thinking about ways to scatter our forces, dictate movement, go on the attack, etc.  Moving the ICK and other units in the center of the board up is like playing an aggressive defense-  I am willing to sacrifice units slowly as long as it buys us time.

He's unlikely to reach the western knights, right? They wouldn't really have the option to flee, although I think they will rather try to set up the dogs for a good countercharge with the chariot.

The West Knights are 19 inches away from his Slaan Chariot.  He would need an 11.

Hopefully we will kill one set of dogs over there-  then I fully expect them to use the other dogs to shield the Chariot for a T2 charge.

Are the central archers in a position to deny the flyers a spot to land in the GS's flank?

No matter what the GS are going to reform to keep all fliers in the front arc. 

--If he keeps them more south, we will likely swing the GS that way around the idol. 
--If he pushes them deep north, we will reform the GS to the east and push forward behind the idol.
--If he send the Chimera south and the DP deep in the east, we will probably have to face southeast and start moving backwards with the GS

The ICK...hmm. It shows I have little experience with small units of Knights. Won't they get in the way of the Outriders? It looks as if they could shoot at his Knights though. No easy kills either but that could be an option.

After Lib's 1st shot comment, I Vanguarded them to face a little more south.  They can barely see and range the Nurgle Warriors, but that is our best 1st round shot.  None of our units are in the way of that!

Speaking of shooting, my initial thoughts as we prepare to enter the magic and shooting phase:

--Depending on dice, I am thinking a Banishment to soften up the Hellcannon.  It will be 3d6 Str 5 hits.  They will probably let it go or burn a scroll if they are worried about Shems on the Chimera.
--Next, lots of dice on a boosted Shems on the Chimera

--If any of our spells go off, that gives the STank's cannon shot a real chance to take out the Hellcannon and possibly the Chimera.
--West Outriders shoot the west-most hounds
--East Outriders shoot the Nurlge Warriors
--East Archer det shoots at Warhounds 3 at long range

Like LSP said earlier-  it is a target rich environment!

 :::cheers:::
HHG
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

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Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2013, 11:05:48 AM »
Gents-

So far the Winds are blowing in our favor:

We rolled double 5s and got 1 channel.

11 PD to 5 DD.

I started with a 3 dice Banishment on the Hellcannon and got 10+4=17.  They dispelled it with all their dice.

Next I cast a 3 dice Birona's Timewarp on the STank and got 16+4=20.

He will likely let that go because he is worried about our 5 dice boosted Shem's Gaze on the Chimera...  Unless we get IF, I bet they burn their scroll.

 8-)
HHG
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 12:43:11 PM by Holy Hand Grenade »
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

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Offline Harshey

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2013, 02:46:29 PM »
Any thought to throwing a 2-dice pha's and then :-dice scheme? Thinking is to keep the magic phase a little conservative.

Offline librisrouge

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2013, 03:20:53 PM »
Perhaps you can explain something to me, and it just might be my inexperience with WoC (nobody at all plays them here), but why are we so determined to Shem's the Chimera over the Hellcannon? Seems to me that the Hellcannon is an equal or greater threat to us but Shem's is literally twice as effective vs. it over the Chimera. Wouldn't it be a greater use of dice to hit the Hellcannon while its still here, and thus gain the Lore Attribute bonus, than to hurt the Chimera that only super dice rolling could possibly let it kill?
Much like Communism, a level three wizard is a waste of everyone's time and will, in due course, fail miserably.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2013, 05:01:39 PM »
Any thought to throwing a 2-dice pha's and then :-dice scheme? Thinking is to keep the magic phase a little conservative.

Yeah, I did think about it.  But using only 3 dice to get off a boosted Shem's needing 15 total is risky.  Not worth taking that chance for a Phias IMHO.

Perhaps you can explain something to me, and it just might be my inexperience with WoC (nobody at all plays them here), but why are we so determined to Shem's the Chimera over the Hellcannon? Seems to me that the Hellcannon is an equal or greater threat to us but Shem's is literally twice as effective vs. it over the Chimera. Wouldn't it be a greater use of dice to hit the Hellcannon while its still here, and thus gain the Lore Attribute bonus, than to hurt the Chimera that only super dice rolling could possibly let it kill?

Yeah, targeting the Hellcannon is a possibility I am thinking about,  but only because it could potentially effect the Chimera too-  if the Hellcannon gets destroyed the Chimera will have to take a Leadership test at 5, re-rollable.

Might be able to get two birds with one stone:evil:

But to get back to your original question on "nuking "targeting priorities, mine are:

#1 DP
#2 Chimera
#3 Hellcannon

In my experience, you can't let Chimeras fly around uncontested for long.

But we could leave the Hellcannon alone and it would do some damage but it wouldn't win the game for Team Chaos (unless they get off Doom & Dark and a Hellcannon shot on the GS...)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 05:59:17 PM by Holy Hand Grenade »
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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2013, 07:16:09 PM »
Agreed. The Hellcannon is nasty and a pita but on it's own not the match winner. However, since a) the DP is out of sight/range, b) Hellcannon & Chimera are where they are, focussing magic on these two and combining it with a cannon shot could see us with a huge headstart on points and take out two threats at the same time - and once one side has a noticeable advantage in the number of units, it can dictate the flow of the battle a lot better.

I'm not overly worried about the ICK as long as they don't die needlessly to some box car charge roll. The Warriors wouldn't have been my first target since they can be delayed and are comparatively slow but every little bit helps and there's probably nothing better to do anyways. 

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Offline Harshey

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2013, 07:34:08 PM »
Then throw 4 dice at shem's boosted at the hell cannon. Thats all we need to get it off with great certainty. That leaves a 1 dice shot at pha's.

I like targeting the hell cannon so it could soften it up for a cannonball shot, increasing out chance of hitting 2 targets with one shot. Also, unless they scroll the time warp, the stank has a complete lock down on the center of the board. We can pretty much bank on it moving 16" on three dice. So we can ram either the chimera or the knights with it on our next turn. I expect the DP will fly out onto our east flank and make its way around for a big purple sun down the line on their bottom of 2, so it will stay out of stank's range.

Offline librisrouge

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2013, 07:39:04 PM »
Ok, so you are using the voice of experience in that decision. Make sense.

If they use the scroll on the Time Warp, I suggest we go full dice with Shem's. We don't want that to potentially fail. If they let it through, a mistake imo, then we might want to consider having the lesser wizard 1-dice phas first, and then dropping the 4-dice shems. Unlikely, but maybe they'll have a brain fart and scroll phas (or we'll just get more off.)
Much like Communism, a level three wizard is a waste of everyone's time and will, in due course, fail miserably.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2013, 11:52:04 AM »
Check out the Battle thread for the update to the action.

Needless to say, it took all our effort to get rid of the damn Hellcannon but at least it is destroyed.

The other good news-  he burned his scroll on T1, opening up our future magic phases.  Hopefully we can maneuver through his first magic phase without having to burn our scroll.  I think we are going to need it later in the game when he starts tossing 6 dice Purple Suns.

The other thing that helps us in regards to all the above is that now we don't have to worry about Doom & Dark and a Hellcannon Panic shot-  which leaves him in the early rounds with some Spirit Leeches against the STank or Wizards or P Suns against our chaff because Doom & Dark won't do much for him.

Thanks for all the excellent advice so far!   :::cheers:::

Let's see what Creeping Death has up their sleeve....
HHG 
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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: TEG3: HHG's Winter Forge Tactical Thread (Empire Team only)
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2013, 02:12:11 PM »
That's a good start.
Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. - S. Clemens

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