Topic: TEG4: Ogres Tactical Thread (Ogre Team only)

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Tactical Exposition Game 4:  Ogres Tactical Thread

This thread is for the OGRE TEAM ONLY for TEG4.   

--If you are in the Empire team, or plan to join it, leave now.
--If you want to join the Ogre Team but haven't yet, then let me know.
--If you are visiting or plan to look at both team's threads to watch from the sidelines, then please refrain from posting comments in TEG4 till the battle is over.

Current Ogre Team Members:

George (General)
Krokz
mrO
Aineias
Rothgar
TCWarroom


--------------------------------------------------------

Team Ogres-

Here are the two lists posted under TEG2/3.

2497 Points - Shooty Ogre List

1 Slaughtermaster @ 370 Pti
     General; Lvl 4; Heavens; Ironfist
     Fencer's blades [35]
     Rock eye [5]
     Talisman of Preservation [45]

1 Butcher @ 169 Pti
     Lvl 2; Maw; GW
     Dispel scroll [25]

1 Bruiser @ 183 Pti
     BSB; Ironfist; HA
     Crown of Command [35]
     Dragon Helm [10]

9 Ironguts @ 475 Pti
     GW; HA; Standard Bearer; Bellower
     Standard of Discipline [15]

     1 Champion @ [10] Pti

12 Gnoblars @ 55 Pti
     Gnoblar Trappers; Thrown weapons

12 Gnoblars @ 55 Pti
     Gnoblar Trappers; Thrown weapons

12 Gnoblars @ 55 Pti
     Gnoblar Trappers; Thrown weapons

1 Meneater Captain @ 464 Pti
     Brace of Ogre pistolsi; Light armour; Standard Bearer; Bellower
     Poison

     Swiftstride

     1 Meneater @ [62] Pti
          Brace of Ogre pistols; Light armour

     1 Meneater @ [62] Pti
          Brace of Ogre pistols; Light armour

      1 Meneater @ [62] Pti
          Brace of Ogre pistols; Light armour

     1 Meneater @ [62] Pti
          Brace of Ogre pistols; Light armour

      1 Meneater @ [62] Pti
          Brace of Ogre pistols; Light armour

      1 Meneater @ [62] Pti
          Brace of Ogre pistols; Light armour

1 Sabretusk @ 21 Pti

1 Sabretusk @ 21 Pti

1 Sabretusk @ 21 Pti

1 Ironblaster @ 170 Pti

1 Ironblaster @ 170 Pti

6 Leadbelchers @ 268 Pti

     Leadbelcher Cannon; Light armour; Bellower

Models: 67


Total  Cost: 2497

What to say... lots of trash drops to gain favorable matchups, lots of diverters (trappers being a pain for big hordes), TONS of bullets coming boosted by Heavens spells. Maybe not very friendly but I think it's not easy to face something like that.

Nasty Ogre Kingdoms List

2498pts

Slaughtermaster, Lvl 4: Heavens, Fencer's Blades, Power Stone, Rock Eye, Iron Fist

Butcher, Lvl 2: Maw, Dispel Scroll, GW

Bruiser, BSB, Hv, Iron Fist

Bruiser, Crown of Command, Hv, Iron Fist

9xOgre Bulls, Hv, Iron Fist, FC

10xIronguts, Hv,GW,FC

7xManeaters, Brace of Pistols, FC, Dragonhide Banner, Poison, Swiftstride

Kitten

Kitten

Kitten

Ironblaster

Ironblaster


Just to describe tactics - kittens act as chaff/hunters. This list actually throws out a lot of ranged firepower. The maneaters are firing 15 BS4 poisoned shots at 24", and the two ironblasters do an excellent job with counter-battery fire.

Each of the three main combat blocks has the potential for brutal output, particularly against T3, lightly armored infantry. Augmented with Heavens, they are even more brutal. This list is one that a favorite opponent of mine takes, and has a lot of versatility. If it outguns you, it can sit back and pick away. If not, Ogres can close FAST. It's a nice all-comers list... probably why Noght doesn't like it

You can pick either list straight up and move on, or modify either one into a new list.  Start posting your thoughts now.

I need someone to step up and be the General for the Ogres.  This means that you need to be available consistently over the next several weeks.  If someone wants to be the General but is going to have some time of non-availability, then one or two lieutenants must be picked to make decisions in the General absence.  I understand we have RL, but if you can't check the forum and post decisions at least twice a day then don't volunteer.

Good luck!

[Krokz]

I could join the Ogre team. Voting for first list with a small twist: remove 2 Gnoblars from each unit and give Slaughtermaster Scroll of Shielding.

Maybe dropping Leadbelchers for two units of 2xMoutnfangs (HA/Ironfists) ... but that would take away the purpose of the list.

[George]

Here's a variation on the 2nd list that interests me...

Tyrant, HA, Giantbreaker, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Striking, Talisman of Endurance
Slaughtermaster, Armour of Destiny, Iron Fist, Level 4 Maw
Butcher' Opal Amulet, Dispel Scroll, GW, Level 2 Beasts
Bruiser, BSB, Armour of Silvered Steel, GW

10 Ironguts, Full Command, Standard of Discipline, Lookout Gnoblar
10 Ogres, Full Command, Iron Fists
7 Maneaters, Standard, Musician, Banner of Swiftness, 6x Brace of Pistols, Swiftstride, Poison
2x1 Sabretusk
Ironblaster

This gets the benefit of a Ld10 General which should help negate the need for the Crown of Command.
This build will allow us to run a Gutstar and an Ogrestar utilising wildform plus the similar buffs from maw to make the Ogrestar a really solid unit.

To do this costs us an Ironblaster and a sabre though?
Alterantely we could drop a Maneater and the pistols plus an Irongut to get the 2nd Ironblaster?

Thoughts?

[Krokz]

Maybe drop Butchers caster level for another Sabretusk.

Your list plays very differently then the upper one. I don't really care which one we take but I do love Trappers versus a cavalry army

[George]

Yeah mine does does take a more combat orientated build. It's surprising what just changing the lore does.

I am happy to run with the 1st shooty list as well....though its something I'm not familiar with running.
The other list is closer to a tourney list I am taking to an upcoming event

Where are all the other Ogre generals?
Any thoughts out there guys?

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Slight modifications to the lists above.  I spent as few points on characters as I could to get as much on the field as possible.   

3x Ironguts, HV, GW, FC, Banner of Discipline
     Slaughtermaster, Lvl 4: Heavens, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Preservation

7x Ironguts, Hv, GW, FC
     Butcher, Lvl 2: Maw
     Bruiser, BSB, Hv, GW, Opal Amulet, Crown of Command

9x Maneaters, FC, 8 w/Brace of Pistols, Champ w/GW, Dragonhide Banner, Poison, Stubborn

10x Gnoblars, Traps
10x Gnoblars, Traps

Gorger

Kitten
Kitten
Kitten

Ironblaster
Ironblaster

2497 points
--------------------------------------

Basically the Slaughtermaster has its own bunker, so miscasts aren't so nasty.  His Ironguts also have Std of Discipline to give us Ldr9.

The BSB w/Crown and Lvl2 Butcher sit in a block of Ironguts giving us a 9 strong Ogre block with Stubborn.

The Maneaters are also 9 strong, with Poison, Stubborn, Dragonbanner to give us another Stubborn block of nasties.

Of course we have the Gnoblars, Kitties, and Ironblasters.  I also was also to squeeze in a Gorger to get in their backyard.

Looks solid on paper.  2x Leadership 9 Stubborn blocks sounds promising, has ranged, magic, diverters, combat potential...

Thoughts?

[George]

A few thoughts on this one HHG

The 3x Ironguts probably don't want a champ...the Standard of Discipline would be the 2nd model removed from that unit so it wouldn't take much to drop to Ld 8.

I have found that the Ogre/Irongut units don't grind well unless the have protected characters at the front to reduce wound....you just end up with T4 5+AS with WS3, they do die pretty quick to S4 attacks.
The Maneaters have a similar problem which you have somewhat overcome with the large number of them. They will put out a lot of hurt, but will die fairly readily too. We can also drop 1 brace of pistols as we won't get to shoot with unless we are 5 wide (CHamp has the GW which takes up that position in the unit when 4 wide. I would spend those points on a GW for the butcher

Gorgers though theysound great haven't worked too well for me...and I usually tried to run 2. Basically at best they do nothing until turn 3, their first change to charge. I find they either arrive too late or die to the warmachine they came on to hunt. Funnily enough the only time they were going to work for me the warmachine blew itself up instead

With all that said this list may perform well against an all cav list due to the high number of high strength attacks and the double cannons. Other than demis they don't have a high volume of attacks and so are all about grinding us out.....this list doesn't grind as well, but deals pretty well with the 1+AS that they will rely on to effectively grind.

Let see how we go getting some more ogre input. I am happy to be running any list the team decides upon.

I am also happy to run the ogres with the just help of Krokz (and any late comers) agaisnt the might of the W-E all cav list if we want to kick off soon. If that is the case though I'd be tempted to run my list (with 2nd Ironblaster) so I can get some more practise out of the excercise myself.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

We can also drop 1 brace of pistols as we won't get to shoot with unless we are 5 wide (CHamp has the GW which takes up that position in the unit when 4 wide. I would spend those points on a GW for the butcher

Yeah, I saw that one after I posted it.

I have messed around with Ogre lists in the past...and you pointed out the dilemma with their lists-  they don't stand up to grind well unless you have characters and you can't put much on the field once you load up on them.

I do like the double Stubborn idea-  but I think we could use any of these lists and make a run of it.

I think whoever decides to be the General should use what they are most comfortable with at this point.

 
HHG

[George]

No worries.
Let us know when the Empire is settled and want to kick off and we'll see where the Ogres are at and I'm happy to step and make some decisions if required.

[Krokz]

Gutstar with characters in front line is the only way to go infantry versus Empire. I agree.
Normal ogres aren't so useful against 1+ AS dough.  Vanilla knights can give them problems. I would rather drop an ogre to make room for 2nd Ironblaster.

[George]

Can do.
Assuing running my list with 2nd Ironblaster would you prefer level 2 on the Beasts mage (difference between needing 3 an 4 dice for wildform) or the 3rd Sabretusk?
I would also expect to see some flaming attacks in their list to deal with troll guts, should be be considering squeezing in a dragon bane gem?

We are also relying on sabres to deal with chaff, not that I expect to see too muh in the cav list...it will be more concetrated on knights, demis and tank with the 5x nilla knights for chaff....those we would need to just charge and deal with the outcome of positioning. This should be ok provided we build to win the combat grind. This list doesn't give away many points on excess units so they need to engage our blocks to get any points, I think we ok with that happening

My list is looking like this currently:
Tyrant, HA, Giantbreaker, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Striking, Talisman of Endurance
Slaughtermaster, Armour of Destiny, Iron Fist, Level 4 Maw
Butcher' Opal Amulet, Dispel Scroll, GW, Level 2 Beasts
Bruiser, BSB, Armour of Silvered Steel, GW

10 Ironguts, Full Command, Standard of Discipline, Lookout Gnoblar
9 Ogres, Full Command, Iron Fists
6 Maneaters, Standard, Musician, 3x Extra Handweapon, Swiftstride, Immune to Pysh
2x1 Sabretusk
2x Ironblaster

[Krokz]

Dunno how normal Ogres will turn out since I never see them in my meta

Maneaters do not look threatening. Any way of getting them all brace of pistols or 3x Extrahand + 3x Great weapon in the expense of core?

[George]

I like the Ogre when you have wildform and maw buffs around...S5, T5 is much better...also the characters in their unit have GW for some S6 and S7 attacks.
I could add the GW on Mannies at the expense of a gut or dropping the L2 to L1.
I haven't used the brace a lot personally...I figure these are guys we want in combat rather than dancing around taking 12 shots.

[Krokz]

2 great weapons help Maneaters a lot. They become monster/1+ AS killers.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

My list is looking like this currently:
Tyrant, HA, Giantbreaker, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Striking, Talisman of Endurance
Slaughtermaster, Armour of Destiny, Iron Fist, Level 4 Maw
Butcher' Opal Amulet, Dispel Scroll, GW, Level 2 Beasts
Bruiser, BSB, Armour of Silvered Steel, GW

10 Ironguts, Full Command, Standard of Discipline, Lookout Gnoblar
9 Ogres, Full Command, Iron Fists
6 Maneaters, Standard, Musician, 3x Extra Handweapon, Swiftstride, Immune to Pysh
2x1 Sabretusk
2x Ironblaster

If we are going the combat route, I think we should go with this.

The issue is going to be getting the combats you want-  they are going to be using their mobility to dance around.

[Aineias The Scarred]

Hi guys I tried to post this yesterday but the forum told me there was a server error... anyway I saved the post, here it is:

Hello guys, I'm the original poster of the first list. This is something I never brought to a tournament (I do not play tournaments actually ) but it was my effort in making a strong shooty list that can handle some nasty CC phases in the right moments and come out victorious. Everything in theory because I only used it a few times against low experianced (less than me ) players.
Anyway I think it would work well in the hands of an experianced general, plus I believe the only three concrete issues are:
 getting clear lines of fire
 pick up the right targets
 pay attention on the initial chaff\redirection business with Gnoblars and Sabretusks

I am very busy at work in summertime so I don't fell like taking the responsability to lead the army, but I would be very happy if someone should choose it for a TEG

In any case I will try to partecipate to TEG4, standing by ogres side (yeah I know, only for this time )

Now about the new posts:I'm little puzzled about HHG list, a 3x IG unit is not something you see often and 9(!) maneaters is a really huge point investiment... I don't know, I wouldn't feel confortable with that. Plus I think it will be a kinda boring list fluffwise (I know we're not debating it in this very case, but I like playing fluffy if at all possible)

About George list I have a better feeling, but I don't like to play both a Tyrant and a SM in a battle at 2.5k... too much points on heroes and Lords. When I run a Tyrant I prefer Rothgar's classic Tyrant + 2 FBs, otherwise I go SM + whatever.

Just my 2 cents

[rothgar13]

Actually, given that we're facing off against tons of armor, I'd go for an Irongut-heavy MMU list. 2 units of IGs with characters in front, double Ironblaster, your choice of the Leadbelcher/Maneater/Mournfang trifecta (I'd opt for Mournfangs in this case - they have the attack output to get through 1+ armor, and are swifter than Knights). Throw in some Trappers for spice and a L4/BSB/Firebelly or a Tyrant/BSB/2 x Firebelly setup, and that's your army.

[TCWarroom]

If we are trying to be over the top its Ironguts or nothing. Regular Ogres are just that. They both come out of core so 600pts of Guts and all the other filth we can fit in.

[rothgar13]

On further review... this goes a bit into tailoring territory, but a unit of Maneaters with the Banner of Swiftness, Stubborn/Swiftstride as their BTDT, and wielding Great Weapons would absolutely demolish that Knight army. It's a unit they only hit on 4+, can smash through most of their armor, and will not run away if it gets charged (and since both units are M7 + Swiftstride, there's only a 50/50 shot of the Knights pulling that off). Thoughts?

[George]

Good to see some more Ogres joining the cause.
It seems obvious we all want GW for opening the canned food
I feel we should be building an all comers list, but one that is prepared for the current high armour save meta.

A couple of important questions to steer on on course I think...

1. Shooting or Combat orientated list?

2. Does anyone want to be the General are are you all happy to follow me into battle...I usually end up about middle of the pack in the tournies I attend and have been taking Ogres for the last year.

[rothgar13]

I'm fine with whoever's the General, but I do insist on our list being CC-oriented. Apart from the 2 Ironblasters, the best Ogres can manage for shooting is S4 AP, which doesn't cut the mustard against 1+ save spam. Ogre Bulls will be an outright liability in this sort of game (S4 just isn't good enough, as I mentioned before), so I suggest we avoid them.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

:I'm little puzzled about HHG list, a 3x IG unit is not something you see often

My thought was the 3x IG is just a bunker hiding behind the two Stubborn blocks-  not meant for front line combat.

As Rothgar says, any of our CC builds will work.  GWs will help with the AS spam-  and you might as well go with them with I2 Ogres anyway so it is not like we are "customizing" our list against theirs.

I think you are perfect for General, George.  I also say we start with your list as a baseline and we suggest tweaks from there.

[George]

So based on some of the feedback here I have put together another close combat option which would be closer to what would often be seen from the Ogres...

Slaughtermaster, L4, GW, Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll
Bruiser (General), HA, GW, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Endurance
Bruiser BSB, GW, Armour of Silvered Steel
9 Ironguts, FC, Standard of Discipline
9 Ironguts, FC
3x1 Sabretusks
Ironblaster
Ironblaster
3 Mournfang, HA, IF, Bellower
5 Maneaters, FC, 4x extra hand weapons, Champ with GW, Immune to Psych, Scouts, Banner of Swiftness

This version is a little more light on characters  in order to bulk up on troops. The characteres either all join the gutstar or the SM my join the other unit of guts. The characters are all kitted out to absorb damage to keep the qty of S6 attacks coming as long as possible.

I see the unit of 3 Mournfang as a distraction that if ignored will hurt, but isn't too many points to lose if they choose to target it.
The Maneaters also fill a similar role....I went with scouts to make them worry during deployment. If they leave any cannons exposed these guys will let us win the cannon/ironblaster war, if not we position them to deal with their most annoying chaff.
I only went with 1 GW on them as the points are tight if we squeeze in the Mournfang as well. By putting it on hte champ that gives us 5 swings and he will be the last model removed unless targeted specifically.

I dropped the 2nd mage from the list as I don't think he does anything without the normal ogres to buff. i also feel the Firebelly or other lores doesn't add enough to the army against the cav force. I like the SM on Maw primarily for the healing of wounds to keep him asborbing damage in the combat grind.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

If we are kitting out the characters I would try and squeeze in the Armor of Destiny on the General so he gets a 4+ Ward as well.

If the Maneaters are a distraction, I would suggest dropping down to 4 and get them all GWs.  We could also afford the above upgrade as well!

[George]

Armour of Destiny is a good idea. I was playing around with a magic weapon on the guys so was initially keeping the armour cheap so missed that option once I decided on a great weapon.

I like the Mannies in 5s with immune to pysh, it means you have to typically target them twice with any shooting to make them ineffective, also 5 will typically leave enough combat power agaisnt troops with higher initiative.
To be fair I haven't tried only 4, but 3's certainly die too quick.