Topic: TEG6: Empire Tactical Thread

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Tactical Exposition Game 6:  Empire Tactical Thread

This thread is for the EMPIRE TEAM ONLY for TEG6.   

--If you are in the Lizardmen Team, or plan to join it, leave now.
--If you want to join the Empire Team, just post your intent in here.
--If you are visiting or plan to look at both team's threads to watch from the sidelines, then please refrain from posting tactical comments in TEG6 till the battle is over.

Rothgar is the General for TEG6.  He will post his list here when he gets a chance.  A starting point for what he likes to run at 2500 can be found in his 8e Empire Handbook thread in the Elector's Forum.

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[rothgar13]

Here's the list, boys. Any feedback?

Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - 2500 points

Core - 638 points
10 Archers [Wizard Lord goes here]
2 x 5 Empire Knights, Great Weapons, Musician
38 Halberdiers, Full Command [Arch Lector and BSB go here]
- Detachments: 2 x 5 Archers

Special - 744 points
2 x 4 Demigryph Knights, Musician, Standard-Bearer
2 x Great Cannon

Rare - 500 points
2 x Steam Tank

Heroes - 143 points
Captain, BSB, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm, Full Plate Armor, Shield, Sword of Striking

Lords - 475 points
Arch Lector, Armor of Meteoric Iron, Crown of Command, Great Weapon, Opal Amulet
Battle Wizard Lord, Dispel Scroll, L4 Wizard, Talisman of Preservation [Lore of Life]

Grand Total: 2500 points

Off the top of my head, a couple of edits I'd be OK with are the inclusion of Inner Circle Knights (at the likely expense of some of the Core chaff), and some way to perhaps sneak a Volley Gun in there (which I doubt can happen, but I'll entertain proposals). I think the 2-Cannon, 2-STank setup is the only non-negotiable part of this army.

[dapper]

Hi rothgar,

The only way I can think of for getting a hellblaster in is dropping 2 demi's and 1 or 2 halberdiers... Not saying this is a good idea... Actually I would rather add another cannon with those points just for the fun of telling the opponent you have FIVE cannons in tour armybook!! 

[Lord Solar Plexus]

On the team! 

The list is fine as is IMO. Life's not my first choice and I prefer a second wizard but that's personal taste. This one should work as it is.

[rothgar13]

I'm open to suggestions with regards to incorporating the second Wizard, LSP. It's something I prefer to have in most of my lists as well. I've thought of stripping down the gear on the BSB to just the Dragonhelm, dumping the Opal Amulet, and stripping the Halberdiers of their unit champion - that would allow me to have a L1 Scroll caddy. Any thoughts on that?

[Chemnitz]

If you really wanted the Helblaster + engineer.  You could go to 2 x 3 Demigryphs (no command, lose 2 demi's), no opal amulet for general, and downgrade 4+ ward to 5+ for wizard.

Don't know if it's ever worth it to drop demigryphs, but thematically, it might be enjoyable.

Looking forward to seeing the battle!

[zifnab0]

Don't have my book handy, but does AOMI make sense?  You can get HA, ench. shield and a 5++ for less than 50 points.  And I expect we will see some heavy hitters (krox, tg, saurus) buffed to the hilt.

I would also drop the Demigryphs to 2x3 with no command.  But thats just because I dont like running units of 4.

[rothgar13]

That's only a 3+/5++, though. The AOMI slightly outperforms that against those S7 heavy hitters (5+/6++ vs. 5++) and it has better synergy with Shield of Faith, which is something I plan on spamming once (or if) the Halberds hit combat.

I'm curious - why the hate for the 4-man Demi units? Is it that the last Demi can't rally if he runs off? Because they have performed spectacularly in my experience.

[TCWarroom]

4 is the way to go. That way, if you lose one, you still have a viable unit.

[librisrouge]

As much as I'd love to see the Hellblaster in that list, it isn't necessarily worth dropping anything from that list to achieve it. Any significant changes worth that many points would alter how the list plays. Plus, this list is kinda a tour de Empire of our best or better units so I say we keep it.

BTW, i'd like to join Team Empire.

[dseevers1854]

I've watched the past three or four of these events, and I told myself that I'd be more involved in the next one so I'm in for the Empire. But probably mostly as a vocal cheerleader.

[zifnab0]

That's only a 3+/5++, though. The AOMI slightly outperforms that against those S7 heavy hitters (5+/6++ vs. 5++) and it has better synergy with Shield of Faith, which is something I plan on spamming once (or if) the Halberds hit combat.

I'm curious - why the hate for the 4-man Demi units? Is it that the last Demi can't rally if he runs off? Because they have performed spectacularly in my experience.

If aomi gives a 6++, then nevermind.
I don't use 4 demigryphs because a) they come in boxes of 3 and b) rallying.

[swampsheep]

If've watched quite a few of these and think it is time I join in. I'd like to join team Empire.

I have a number of comments to the army list - pick and choose amongst them.

I would go for lances instead of GWs on those small knight units for the extra armour save and the possibility to strike first against the larger (slower) creatures. But mostly for the armour save; we will most likely see a lot of S4+ and then the extra AS really pays off.

I would skip the sword of striking on the BSB. I would rather have the parry save and save the points, and he won't be the one killing enemies in any case I think.

I am unsure if 38 halberdiers are sufficient. I mostly run units with roughly 10 more, and that really does a lot of difference in terms of staying power I think. However, I am unsure where to get the points from. Maybe skip a knight-chaff unit?

Regarding the AL I'm not a great fan of AoMI. Too expensive, especially considering the ward save is only 6+.
I would think Armour of Destiny would be a better choice - or Cloack of Ulric / fencers blades.
I am also unsure of crown of command is worth it. With steadfast, LD9 and BSB nearby I think that would be sufficient. And if we are afraid of losing steadfast, maybe more halberdiers would be better than the crown? They have some offensive use and not purely defensive use (as opposed to the crown).

I think the helblaster would be a wonderful addition as it would be useful against many of nasty things in the LM army. Cutting a few demi's might do the trick. But maybe the approach should be different - find the points for another demi (and a new command group) and then field 3 demi units with 3 demis in each?


And then another train of thought entirely - how much list-tailoring are we wanting to do? And how much do we expect them to do?
Since it is already public knowledge that the starting point is "Faith, steel and gunpowder", it is easy for them to do some tailoring. Is that something we should take into consideration? Or are we sticking to trying to make an all-comers lists?


Sorry if I break too much with the starting army list - if it was not intended to diverge this much from the initial thoughts then it's all fine by me. I have a tendency to re-vamp and re-write my army list a thousand times over and sometimes it is just better to go with the initial thoughts - and maybe Rothgar would like a familiar list since he is in charge and most likely have loads of experience with this exact list.

[rothgar13]

I like the idea behind more Halberdiers in the army, though its coming at the expense of Stubborn and/or some of my chaff makes me apprehensive about it. I know from experience that the Knight chaff units with lances don't accomplish a whole lot past the first round (and they can't break anybody), and I'm not really worried about the lower save - the main thing that I expect those Knights to be hunting are Skinks, which are (a) faster than Knights, and (b) S3, so the gap in save will not come up.

[cisse]

I'll join Empire again this time.

About the list... I'm not too sure about the two STanks against Lizardmen, I still have nightmares about the old Slann (seems the new one is slightly less powerful?) and his ability to swallow STanks with a well-placed pit of shades. But since it is the core of the list for you, we'll  work with it.  In the same vein, I think we can skip on one cannon and take a helblaster instead, but again they are the core of the army so they stay.

The knights, then. I'd definitely take one unit of the chaff knights with lances instead of great weapons. Yeah skinks are no threat even to great weapon knights, but other things are. Knights with lances have more staying power. Besides, running two units with different weapon setup is the ideal way to decide which is better once and for all! 

On a related note - I have had very good results running a small unit of reiksguard against lizardmen. Points are tight, but perhaps something to keep in mind? I'd rather have more halberdiers and a small, annoying unit of 1+ save reiksguard running around. Drop a Demi if needed. Oh, and the sword of striking on the BSB. Can't really see the point of it, do LM have ethereal units in their new book?

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Well, we can optimize it to death but we're not going to get more Halberdiers, better Knights and more shooting in. It's quite good as it is. Those Halberdiers are hardly going to do the heavy lifting on their own. Chaff wins games. I don't think we should drop a unit that can take out an enemy just for some padding. Lances or GW...that's purely cosmetic.

I would skip the sword of striking on the BSB. I would rather have the parry save and save the points, and he won't be the one killing enemies in any case I think.

Oh, and the sword of striking on the BSB. Can't really see the point of it, do LM have ethereal units in their new book?

Well, we don't want to tailor completely to one army we know has no ethereals, do we? I've found this sword to be well worth it in an all-comers list. Sure it's even better with Wyssans or Mindrazor but it's fairly priced. It's not strictly necessary of course.

Regarding the AL I'm not a great fan of AoMI. Too expensive, especially considering the ward save is only 6+.
I would think Armour of Destiny would be a better choice - or Cloack of Ulric / fencers blades.

The Cloak costs nearly the same, offers not a shred of armour save and its effect is extremely limited to a few models. That's not going to help. The Blades on top of that cost even more and still don't get you any AS. 12 S4 attacks translate to .42 wounds with this setup and .83 with yours....it's a bit better against S6+ but more expensive, too. If he gets his ward prayer through, it's pretty much a wash.

Since it is already public knowledge that the starting point is "Faith, steel and gunpowder", it is easy for them to do some tailoring.

What does that give away? We could have an Altar or four WP's, or two mounted ones, steel armour or blades or steel spear tips, or gunpowdered warmachines...I mean how much can you tailor against the possibility of support characters, some kind of combat unit(s) and warmachines, and how much of that would they have expected anyways?

[swampsheep]

Well, we don't want to tailor completely to one army we know has no ethereals, do we? I've found this sword to be well worth it in an all-comers list. Sure it's even better with Wyssans or Mindrazor but it's fairly priced. It's not strictly necessary of course.

Ethereals or not, I would not equip the BSB for combat like that, but it is a matter of playing style, I guess.

The Cloak costs nearly the same, offers not a shred of armour save and its effect is extremely limited to a few models. That's not going to help. The Blades on top of that cost even more and still don't get you any AS. 12 S4 attacks translate to .42 wounds with this setup and .83 with yours....it's a bit better against S6+ but more expensive, too. If he gets his ward prayer through, it's pretty much a wash.

Mathhammer aside (we can set up any number of examples and discuss their likelyhood of happening), I have found the cloak to be very useful. I usually use Light magic though, with the added benefit of Phas protection it becomes very useful (and normally without fencers blades then). Prayers are not guaranteed and experienced players will targit them when the unit hits CC. In any case, I think Talisman of Preservation or Armour of destiny (since the talisman is used) are better choices than AoMI, but I guess that might also be a matter of choice.

What does that give away? We could have an Altar or four WP's, or two mounted ones, steel armour or blades or steel spear tips, or gunpowdered warmachines...I mean how much can you tailor against the possibility of support characters, some kind of combat unit(s) and warmachines, and how much of that would they have expected anyways?

Following the link in rothgars profile pretty much gives me a selection of army lists at different points values that he have used under this title: http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=44542.0
I checked it yesterday and found the above list to be pretty similar to what is in there, but looking at it again today, I find several changes I failed to notice yesterday; no walter, GW instead of lances, 2 units of DGK instead of 1, no second wizard. All in all I think that is sufficient with changes that any tailoring might not be very useful. So I retract this point - i don't think the army list is as open as I thought at first. But it is not as unknown as if the only information they had was, that we were playing an empire army.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Well, Pha's is no more guaranteed than prayers. I'm not dogmatic about equipment and frontline fighters do merit some thought but at the end of the day, the Cloak is not armour and additional armour needs more points. And the Cloak only affects the guys in B2B...which will be Skinks, not Krox.

I admit I have a pretty good feeling that between two Stanks, shooting, magic and the Demis we can keep the Halberdiers out of any fight we don't like and only commit them with little risk to the characters.

[swampsheep]

The point about the cloak and kroxigors are a very valid one that I haven't thought of.

And of course pha's is not any more guaranteed than any prayer, though it seems to me, that the more minor spells that can make a difference you have, the better the chance than one of them gets through - as opposed to putting all of your eggs in one basket and risk a miscast (though that is not a big deal with prayers, of course). Pha's seems to me to be overlooked, especially in combination with cloak.

In any case, that is not the situation we have here as we neither use light magic, nor is the cloak fully useful, when the ugly hitters can be in the second rank.

[dseevers1854]

I understand that Rothgar is very comfortable with the two cannon and two stank set-up, but if we're seriously considering making room for a HBVG, which I think we should be, then I don't see much of a problem with subbing out a cannon for one. Granted, my experience with the new Lizard book isn't great, but if the chaff is much like the last book, then I think the HBVG would outshine a fourth cannon.

[rothgar13]

Hm, lots of comments! Let's address them.

The STank is a pretty safe bet vs. new Lizzies if you ask me - it no longer fails I-test-or-dies (checks at the Engineer's I3), and they can no longer force spells through willy-nilly, and Random Movement lets me negate the Skirmishers' great edge against most conventional units (dancing out of their lines of sight), and that's not even covering its more conventional uses. It's a great all-comers choice, and I see no indications that it will be less than stellar against Lizards.

I'm seeing the one-cannon-for-HBVG swap continue to come up, and I'm a bit puzzled as to why. Does anyone really run HBVG's without Engineers in a top-flight list? Because I wouldn't. In that case, simply swapping a Cannon for it doesn't cover its full cost - the Engineer must be made room for. Until I see a plan for both pieces, I can't say I consent to that.

The Sword of Striking for the Captain also seems to be a point of contention - though a more understandable one. I have to say that I'm fond of it overall, and while it does cost me a parry, it's more of an all-comers (looking mainly at VC) choice than anything. The Armor of Meteoric Iron is a tad underrated, I find - I'm not saying it's fantastic value, but a 1+ save is some of the best protection points can buy. I'm willing to splurge a bit to make sure my General swats off most of the attacks that hit him.

Overall though, loving the outpouring of ideas. Keep 'em coming!

[swampsheep]

Very good case for the steam tank, Rothgar.

Regarding cannons I think two conventional cannons are a must. The new lizzie book is heavy with big monsters and outside cannons, we have no good way of handling them. And a helblaster without an engineer is a waste IMO (and mathhammer backs that up with around 100% increase in hits caused for around 50% increase in points cost).

The only way I see HBVG come into this list then is by reducing 2 x 4 DGK to 1 x 5 - and I don't think that's the way to go. If anything, I would rather try to find room to go the other way (3 x 3), but I don't see where the points should come for that with core, cannons and steam tanks unable to supply additional points.

[Chemnitz]

I'm not saying that I'd do it, but...

You could trade a cannon for a HBVG, and 1 Demi + standard for the Engineer.

Which brings up another thing: I'm not so sure about putting Standards in Demi's.

[rothgar13]

The CR bump is a big deal in my experience. For the most part, Demis need to win fights to be useful. Even sammay's MSU Cav + Fliers lists have Standards on their Demis.

[TCWarroom]

I vote no on the HBVG if we are playing filth.