Warhammer-Empire.com
Between the Battles & the Art ... => The Count's Tavern => Topic started by: Finlay on October 09, 2008, 10:59:44 AM
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Right, there are loads of us here starting or thinking about starting DE.... and I hate the Druchii forum as I feel it is over modded, so I wanted to start a W-E Dark Elf thread!
my plan is to have an all mounted/magic heavy force because I want something different from Empire, and cheap and quick!
rough army list (dont have the book with me in this house....)
level 4 on a pegasus
2 x level 2 on dark steeds
BSB on a CO with banner of plus one attack
20 dark riders, into 4 units of 5. 2 units have RxBs and 2 don't. The dark steed sorceresses go with the RxB units
2 x 6 harpies
7 shades
10 CoK
I know for punch I should have a Hydra, but I hate the model.
The first thing I plan on doing are the dark riders, and I am going to do the typical Glade rider conversion. I am ordering bits from this american ebay store, and will use Dark elf warrior torsos and heads, spears and crossbows. I am going to get some hand crossbows from the corsair set and possibly some glade guard capes, apparently that looks good.
I don't really know what I am going to do for sorceresses on steeds..
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I'll make a more useful comment soon as I am in the process of working out how to use my Druchii too, but I just joined Druchii.net too and I did one post so far which was my test repainting model that I also posted here.
Now people here seem generally nice and usually at least find something good to say about things as well as a little constructive critisism but only one person replied, they didn't welcome me at all (here, it seems, if it is your first post and you say it is, you get 5-10 people saying how cool it is to see you), told me it looked like I had painted right onto the plastic and.... hang on, here is the reply, in full:
Did you just add a black wash over top? It's a little blotchy in places, the hands sepecially. Is there a base coat? I can't really tell, looks kind of like the paint was added to naked plastic.
If you want to rdo the entire mini I'd suggest you use diferent colour washes for different areas. Use a brown ink on the skin, instead of black, a navy on the blue. The black wash work nice for your armour though, as it is an improvement giving it more depth.
I'm not saying there was no good points in what he said, it just seemed cold. Made me miss being here really. I haven't bothered to post anything else there yet, any time I go look in the other forums and read the way people talk, it puts me off. *shrug*
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the mods close loads of threads as well. there was one on what is the best dragon, and people were posting, and this mod swoops in and goes
"NO MORE 1 LINE REPLIES, THIS IS BECOMING A SPAMPOOL".
it pisses me off.
It doesn't seem very active, and I straight up asked this one guy how he did his mounted sorceress and no reply...
P.S., i like your model!
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Yeh, I read the rules to one or two of the forums there and it scared me to death. I felt like I was going to be burned at the steak unless I came up with a three paragraph, well argued point. What's wrong with posting just to say "hey that's great". Sometimes that's all you need to say. *shrug*
And thanks :lol:, I'd say wait until you see my Black Guard test but he's proving to be problamatic, colour wise, right now. Are we to see some of your Druchii soon? If the scheme is anything as good as the beasts I wait with baited breath... :wink:
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I felt like I was going to be burned at the steak
Now I will always imagine Malekith with a cooks hat and a barbecue griller in his hand cooking a minotaur cat....thanks!
And were you prepared medium, or well done?
To the army list I think you will have quiet some fun with that list...perhaps you should drop in two units of 10 harpies for screening issues. The cold ones will be one unit? what banner will you give them?
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exactly. This guy is posting a battle report, and I just want to say "cool battle report, keep it coming" but am put off.
Well I haven't actually bought any yet... haha. and the bits things off ebay dont end for 4 days, and will be posting from america, and for some reason my paypal always takes 7 working days to clear, so Won't have them for ages. I might buy some CoK to try out.
Not really sure scheme wise. Purple seems a bit... overdone.
Might go with dark Red, although my altdorf army is red/blue.
I'm a bit worried the list will be vile to play against.
And yeh, the cold ones will be one big hammer, was thinking just war banner in. the BSB will be in there with the +1 attack banner. thats 13 Str 6 and 10 Str 4 attacks on the charge.
But they will get shot, a lot. Which is why the list really should have a hydra, spread out the enemies attention.
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Or harpies screening you against the worst of the lot...and the dark riders should and could destroy the artillery of the opponent by turn three. All those attacks are with hatred also you donīt need the war banner in there you could even think about the asf banner for the unit for cases that you fail your stupidity test and have to receive a charge. I will try to give more advice when I come home and can take a look to the magic items selection of the DE.
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I'm also concerned about having my sorceresses with Dark riders, who I expect to do a fair amount of fleeing with, and they are vulnerable to shooting, and could get paniced easily.
Stupidity test might be a killer, so yeh ASF banner is probably a good idea. As I said I don't have my book with me, so can't really remember the magic items I planned on using, but I do remember my level 4 had the pendant of underpriced wardsave.
Oh, and I looked at the gamezone site. It is in spanish! and the pictures are really small. the GW CoK are my favourite models to be released in a while though.
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Here I have a german site for you ...you can click the pictures to enlarge.
http://www.battlefield-berlin.de/shop/index.php?list=WG440 (http://www.battlefield-berlin.de/shop/index.php?list=WG440)
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I'm a long time Dark Elf player myself, though I try not to mention that too often around here. Inquisition, you know...
Anyway, your basic army looks good, though it lacks substance with all those skirmishers, but I guess you're going for a MSU approach.
I would consider splitting up the Cold One Knights into two units of five. This will reduce the danger of one failed stupidity test screwing up your day, and five knights led by a Hydra Banner BSB packs plenty of punch. Though the smaller units do make it harder to outnumber the enemy with fear causers.
Also, consider mounting your high Sorceress on a Manticore. The Manticore is a real killer, and it would give you another shock unit, should you need it.
For mounted sorceresses, I have used the older Lahamian (sp?) mounted vampires, which are nice models if a bit...slutty, but I guess that's the Dark Elf tradition, right? Spikes and skin!
The paint scheme for my army, which features a lot of Corsairs, Cold Ones, and a Hydra, is Scaly Green and Hawk Turquoise for the lizard skin, warmer shades of brown for all the leather, and bright silver armor. I think it's a nice set of contrasts.
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I know what you mean, notts, Siberius. Both here and at Asrai.org, I felt welcomed immediately (though here that could partly have been my participation in the C-i-M... I dunno *shrugs*). Over there it felt more, impersonal I guess. The RPG's are good though. Any way, I also (surprise surprise) am starting DE's, and this would be my list. I don't really have anything to add to what has already been said about yours notts. BTW, this is specifically for a league with comp rules, most important of which are: 400 min core, no more than 1/2 specials can be same choice, no more than 1/2 rares can be same choice, can only use up to 10 PD max per magic phase (1st bound counts as 1 PD, after that they are 2) and additional dice from PoD and boon of tzeentch (or whatever it is) don't count against that limit, max 10 DD per magic phase (1st scroll counts as 1, above that 2 in every magic phase whether you use em or not). I think that's it...
I need to have a 1500 point base, and can add up to 750 points for "customizing" against a particular opponent (max points per game is 2250). The full rules are here (http://www.geocities.com/mi_whplayers/glwl.html) if I'm being unclear. The 1500 base also has to include any lord I use.
1500 base
Lord
Supreme Sorceress 360
Level 4, Black Staff, Dispel Scroll, power stone
Heroes
Master 156
Cold one, Caledor's bane, Enchanted Shield, heavy armor, shield
Sorceress 180
Level 2, Tome of Furion, Seal of Ghrond
Character Total: 694
Core
12 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 132
Shields
12 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 132
Shields
12 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 132
Shields
12 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 132
Shields
Special
5 Cold One Knights 260
Full Command, Standard of Slaughter, death piercer
Total 1479
What I am considering for customizing options
Characters
Sorceress 150
Dispel scroll, The Guiding Eye
Core
20 Corsairs 225
FC
Assassin 171
AhW, Rune of Khaine, Touch of Death, Dark Lotus
Special
5 Shades 95
light armor, great weapons
Rare
2xReaper Bolt Throwers 200
Hydra 175
I don't actually own any of this yet (well, the master on cold one, a foot sorc, and a box of warriors but those don't really count)
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not particularly going for an MSU approach, just going for a force I can buy and paint quite quickly and cheaply!
Slutty, yeh. But at least she doesn't have her baps out like the Morathi model. I hate how the DE female models pander to 15 year old virgins.
What model to use for a manticore... tricky!
I wrote this quick list, but feel for the price of the manticore I could add in another sorceress, or an assassin to the shades, or a hydra, or a master on pegasus with RoH, etc etc.
Lord (lady more like!)
Supreme Sorceress
Level 4, Manticore, Pendant of Khaeleth, 495
Heroes
Sorceress
Level 2, Dark Steed, Darkstar Cloak, 172
Master, BSB, Hydra Banner Cold One, Heavy Armour, Shield, SDC, Lance, 214
Core
5 Dark Riders, Musician, 92
5 Dark Riders, Musician, 92
5 Dark Riders, RXB, Musician, 117
5 Dark Riders, RXB, Musician, 117
5 Harpies, 55
5 Harpies, 55
Special
5 CoK, FC, Standard of Hag Graef, Null Talisman, 225
5 CoK, FC, Standard of Slaughter, Null Talisman, 225
6 Shades, GW, 108
1967 Pts
30 points spare....
Got to think that a combined charge of one of those CO units and dark riders in the flank/rear would pretty much break anything. Harpies are screens for the CoK. Got to think the DR and magic should handle warmachines or shooting units quickly.
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Ok, back after a battle yesterday in which my first 'new' Druchii army got massacred.
For the record, I'm not sure if they would be baps, they seem too... unbappy... maybe small cherry buns.
Anywho, interestingly two of the things you said Notts, came up in my battle.
I'm also concerned about having my sorceresses with Dark riders, who I expect to do a fair amount of fleeing with, and they are vulnerable to shooting, and could get paniced easily.
Stupidity test might be a killer, so yeh ASF banner is probably a good idea.
My Sorceress was with my Dark Riders who also had a Master with the funky imrpoved magic crossbow so they were pretty nasty, but got mauled in combat by some Wild Riders. I needed to get her out before they got over there but they move surprisingly far.
I failed two stupidity tests when I was about to charge some Wardancers. Not good.
I try not to take anything too cheesy and I pretty much have units of everything bar a hydra. I have....
A Dragon
2 Pegasi
A Manticore
25 Spearelves
30 Crossbows
25 Corsairs w/2hw
10 Corsairs w/hb
10 Dark Riders
6 Harpies
8 Shades
11 Cold One Knights
20 Black Guard
12 Executioners
1 Chariot
20 Witch Elves
2 Reapers
1 Cauldron of Blood
Many assorted characters
So I'm pretty well set to play a variety of different styles. I probably need to bolster a few of my less numouress units like the DRiders, Harpies and Shades so I can use 2 units but I don't like the idea of going too heavy on any one thing.
In the battle, my C.O Knights got trapped in a wood, though they were really hard to kill, my corsairs managed to do naught but get shot up, my 15 spearman unit I took performed really well though, I took the warbanner for an extra meatiness and they saw off some Dryads. My shades were great, albeit too far away, my harpies sucked (no warmachines to hunt and the spellsingers were in woods). The reaper got eaten by some Waywatchers, the Dark Riders rocked up until the unfortunate Wild Rider incident and the sorceress was again, great until the same incident.
I'm really liking how much better our characters can fare in combat (in the last edition, they couldn't even go toe to toe with an Empire hero) and our units too with all the rerolls. Sadly, we still seem to be just as squishy, and there ain't a lot of us on the table.
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Sounds kind of unlucky. I am really wary about my DR sorceress units now... Maybe I should put them all on pegasus'!
Modelling is bugging me for these, especially with the Bitz service scrapped. I want glade riders with some De bits for my DR's,
No ideas for my sorceresses.
No ideas for manticore sorceress (plan on old edition beastmaster manticore for that)
No ideas for harpies.
also, I am really poor, so everytime I go to buy some models, I stop myself saying I will be thankful in a few months!
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You could probably almost exclusively use Glade Riders for your DRiders. I am thinking of getting a box, mixing in some Glade Guard scouting heads to help the cloaky feel and switching in some repeater crossbow arms from the dark elf warrior box set.
If you could get hold of a Warrior box set (which even though you dislike the minis, those spearelves could come in real handy and you'd be left with the spare crossbow arms) and a Glade Rider box set (8 Dark Riders ready to go) and maybe try and find someone who could swap you 8 wood elf scout heads (which should be easy because they are common as muck for anyone who has made glade guard), you'd end up with like 16 spearelves and 8 DRiders from 2 boxes which would be pretty nifty.
Infact, even if you don't want the spearelves, you could probably swap someone for those crossbowmen arms because they too are common.
EDIT
And yeh, there was some bad luck, plus it was my wife I was playing and she has only played four games so I helped her out some, though it's not like I was trying to lose, but the real slice of bad luck (or stupidity) was when my C.Ones got stuck in the woods and I knew they weren't coming back out, I pulled the general out of them to go and try and wreak a little havok in the last turn and he got lethal shotted by those pesky Waywatchers. That is one nasty rule!
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I was going to use DE torsos, heads and arms, and GR everything else.
I have bids in on this ebay store called hoard o bits for DE torsos, heads, arms, spears, xbows and handbows for corsair (plan to have some holding handbows in one hand and spear in t'other).
It's quite hard to know how they will look having never had GR or DE box. and people are bidding vs me on ebay, so i'm tempted just to buy a box of warriors and a box of GR.
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Well, good luck with the bidding.
I've actually bought from them too. I got some Bretonnian knight bits and some peasant heads to mix up my Empire guys a bit.
Great value if you can get hold of stuff!
I reckon your plan sounds like it should work out pretty well.
Those new corsairs are crazy to put together, I've only done one so far but my usual order kept getting thrown out the window so I'll be more careful how I do it next time.
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I've recently started another DE army, having sold my first to expand my glorious Empire.
I've bought 2 Battalions, an extra box of Corsairs and Cold Ones. Bought a few characters and a Bolt Thrower to get me started. I need to get another BT though and then the compulsary Dark Riders.
I've got everything built and have started painting my 1st unit of Corsairs. I'm giving them Bone coloured armour, as soon as I get one finished I'll post it up.
I was going to give all of my warriors bone coloured armour with metal chaina nd inserts but only my Corsairs are gong to get it now. Making them look like they've used the bones of Sea Creatures to make their armour while at sea. If they use the skin for cloaks why not the bones?
I've been a member of Druchii.net for a few years and have posted a grand total of one time. It's not a forum I feel is as easilly navigated as this site and feels a bit less welcoming (not sure why it just does). On here it feels like every one is friends straight from the off.
I plan on having 2 seperate style armies:
One which is a Raiding force: Corsairs, Dark Riders, Reaper BTs a unit of shades(manflayer models) and Harpies. The mages in this army will also be male(that's the rebel in me :icon_mrgreen:) I've used a plastic HE mage and added a spearhead onto one of his staffs and added a DE warriors head. Looks pretty damn cool if I say so myself.
The other a bit more traditional but largely infantry based backed up with 2 units of CoKs.
Although the double Hydra option will be popular and powerful, I refuse to go down that road. Same as my Empire (I own 2 Steam Tanks but have never used them)
Brian
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Rufus, I haven't used the Cauldron in this edition, though from a quick skim of the rules, it looks nice.
I did use it with 6th rules and it was beautiful. All those rerolls and the ward on the witch elves. And the never ending frenzy. Lovely.
I guess it's one that is especially great against combat armies because you can let them come to you and all your guys will be in range of it to take the benefits whereas I'm unsure as to it's use against a shooty stand back army as you might have to move out of it's radius.
Maybe I can make more useful comments when I reread the rules.
You're gonna have a nasty shooty army ain't ya! :-P
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Sibby, the cauldron can move you know... nothing that says it can't :icon_razz:.
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Seriously???
If that's the case, that throws a whole new light on things...
I just kinda assumed it couldn't because it looks totally unmovable... and it used to have wheels so I figure they took the ability away...
If it can move though... hmm...
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I don't see any rules that say it can't... :engel:
EDIT: From the CoB rules
The Death Hag and two attendants are treated as a warmachine crew... the attendants never pursue even though they have the hatred rule...
Warmachines can move, you just don't want to move em most of the time. The pursue thing presupposes that they (and the CoB) can move. I think its valid.
Oh, and what do you all think of my list?
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that manticore is hilarious.
And I like how you thing the Hydra banner is silly, yet are fine with a cauldron of blood for witch elves to bathe in...
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Yes the cauldron can move, but keep in mind it cannot march, so its 5" are rather slow.
As someone who has been killing DE for almost a decade I applaud you choice in armies gentlmen, but as the british might say, everytime I read the word Druchii I get get a big spot of sick on myself.
Phil
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This is a major revalation...
It's like finding out that the movement phase comes after the shooting phase or... that halberdiers are the best Empire infantry. It's that surprising.
I'm gonna have some fun with it :evil:
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I'm thinking of dropping my magic heavy list.
Has been suggested to me my list is too quick to win with magic, and I need another hammer.
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My no magic list. Which is actually competitive- as long as the opposition doesn't have much magic :icon_razz:.
Crone Hellebron on foot (general) 460
Cauldron of Blood
Death Hag 200
Battle Standard Bearer, Banner of Hag Graef, Manebane, Rune of Khaine
Master 158
Cold One, Caledors Bane/Heartseeker, Enchanted Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Heavy Armor
Character Total: 818
Core
15 Witch Elves 225
Full Command, Banner of Murder, Rune of Khaine (Hag)
19 Corsairs 240
Full Command, Sea Serpent Banner
10 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 110
Shields
9 Witch Elves 90
8 Witch Elves 80
Special
14 Executioners 180
Full Command
7 Cold One Knights 256
Full Command, Standard of Slaughter, Null Talisman
Total points: 1999
PD:2
DD:2 + 1 null talisman
And if you want, here (http://www.asrai.org/download/file.php?id=1504) are 7-8 variations of my first list.
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possibly worth giving the RoH to a pegasus riding master if you run no magic.
I just won some dark elf auctions with a last second bid. I can see why people get addicted, I feel awesome, lol.
Unfortunately I forgot to bid for the corsair handbows. And the bidding went higher than I wanted for the torsos, spears and heads, So I am going to have to buy a box of warriors from gifts for geeks anyway.
So if anyone feels charitable and wants to send me a few, that would be awesome. (I would offer a trade, but I cannibalise my bits box to make things, so I have more or less nothing worthwhile trading)
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Hey Notts, how many handbows are you after, I'll throw some in with the mounted legs before they go in the post tomorrow?
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10 or so, if you can spare that many?
Thanks man, I really appreciate it.
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Not an issue mate, I have about 40 spare :biggriin:
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It's like finding out that the movement phase comes after the shooting phase or... that halberdiers are the best Empire infantry. It's that surprising.
Well... the fact that it can move still doesn't make it any good...
Phil
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I used it a few times in 6th edition and it kinda rocked (even without moving :-P).
I know they have changed up the rules now. Have they made it worse in your opinion? Or is this a competing for rare slots thing?
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It's like finding out that the movement phase comes after the shooting phase or... that halberdiers are the best Empire infantry. It's that surprising.
Well... the fact that it can move still doesn't make it any good...
Phil
3 Attacks per cold one rider and 2 attacks per cold one on the charge are quite impressive in my book especially if you drop the hatred in.
2 Attacks with great weapons on shades are also quite impressive they hit harder than swordmasters.
And the altar needs no LOS, I think it is pretty darn hard.
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I used it a few times in 6th edition and it kinda rocked (even without moving :-P).
I know they have changed up the rules now. Have they made it worse in your opinion? Or is this a competing for rare slots thing?
It is no rare slot it is a mount for your witch hero character
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Still, it's a minimum of two hundred points and a character slot. It's hard to fit into an army with all the other options there are, so maybe it should be saved for bigger games.
3 Attacks per cold one rider
Two, surely. The only have one attack normally.
By the way, a 'no magic' army means no magic items either. That's what I'm going to do.
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Well 3 Attacks with the hydra standard, I am not sure that the mounts get the extra attack from the altar.
You can save the points for the altar with a cheap lord.
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A hydra banner as well! That BSB is going to be two hundred points by himself. That's too many points in one unit.
I think the mount does get the extra attack from the cauldron, but it's not altogether clear.
My no magic list. Which is actually competitive- as long as the opposition doesn't have much magic
Crone Hellebron on foot (general) 460
Sorry, anything with a special character doesn't count as a proper list. :icon_razz:
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I used it a few times in 6th edition and it kinda rocked (even without moving :-P).
I know they have changed up the rules now. Have they made it worse in your opinion? Or is this a competing for rare slots thing?
It was okay, but it was never worth what you had to give up to take it. It is better now, but still expensive, requires you take a crappy character (the hag sort of sucks) and requires you use some of the less effective units in the list (executioners and witches) in order to maximize the effectivenss of the selection.
Still, it makes for a different type of list so there is that.
Phil
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OK, here's a question to goth pixie generals everywhere: let's say you want to use a dragon, which is going to cost you two character slots including the lord. So, which characters do you back him up with? Two level two wizards? One wizard and a hero? Go completely crazy and use a hero on a manticore as well?
:icon_question:
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Yes it is quite a lot of points but you can use the altar on a differnt unit each turn it is like a bound spell per turn with 24 " that canīt be blocked. +1 Attack or 5+ Ward save are nice. If the mounts also get the attack dark riders with spears are really nice to exploit this a unit 6 strong is not very expensive but would hit with 12 attacks str 4 and 12 attacks str 3 with re rolls to hit I think this would be enough to smash through an infantry block even frontal.
Against Ws 3 with
with
S 4
12 Attacks 8 hits with hatred 10,7 hits 7,13 wounds with the 6 + save 5,9 wounds
S 3
10,7 hits 5,35 wounds with the 5+ save 3,56 wounds
9,5 wounds drop in a standard and you have surely broken that unit and capture a standard to go with it
Well it is all mathhammer but a list with 4 altars and the rest filled with dark riders seems quite....strong 18 inch charge range are also nice against heavier armoured targets perhaps some shades should be included with great weapons. Or a hero level character in a unit of dark riders with a lance.
I think the alter is worth its points I would even think about taking two with a bsb and a lord choice with some magic resistance and lots of charges in turn two this could be fun
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OK, here's a question to goth pixie generals everywhere: let's say you want to use a dragon, which is going to cost you two character slots including the lord. So, which characters do you back him up with? Two level two wizards? One wizard and a hero? Go completely crazy and use a hero on a manticore as well?
:icon_question:
Hmm I would always take a bsb to join with that perhaps even on a manticore :biggriin:
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Well it is all mathhammer but a list with 4 altars and the rest filled with dark riders seems quite....strong 18 inch charge range are also nice against heavier armoured targets perhaps some shades should be included with great weapons. Or a hero level character in a unit of dark riders with a lance.
What, having no magic defense, limited shooting, and almost 1000 points in characters who are either alone or in week units? Doesn't seem strong to me.
Phil
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Fandir, I like the sound of your maths. I might try it soon to experiement with how much you can do it. And I have plenty of Witch Elves and Executioners too, which whether they are a good choice or not are still cool. Maybe it'll surprise people who seem to be expecting 2 hydras and a bombload of shades and harpies.
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you can insert 60 dark riders to that and for one turn you donīt need any magic resistance.
2 Altars (380 points) with 6 units a 6 Dark riders with Standard and musician are only about 1200 points bring them into position and if you wonīt get a single flank charge you do something wrong in a 1500 point list that seems to me quite nasty.
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Fandir, I like the sound of your maths. I might try it soon to experiement with how much you can do it. And I have plenty of Witch Elves and Executioners too, which whether they are a good choice or not are still cool. Maybe it'll surprise people who seem to be expecting 2 hydras and a bombload of shades and harpies.
If you want to field one alter I donīt think you make a mistake witch elves are poor compared to the other core choices you have but overall with stubborn I donīt think they are such a bad buy 14 strong (7*2) you get 21 attacks with re rolls to hit and poison you could add killing blow with the altar and even do some knight killing business.
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The idea of showing up with four cauldrons is just too weird though. Even two would look peculiar. :icon_confused:
I would always take a bsb to join with that perhaps even on a manticore
No magic defence then though... what about two level two wizards on pegasuses?
Also, and not related, how many shades per unit? The minimum of five? Seven? Nine?
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2 Altars (380 points) with 6 units a 6 Dark riders with Standard and musician are only about 1200 points bring them into position and if you wonīt get a single flank charge you do something wrong in a 1500 point list that seems to me quite nasty.
Its 400 points for two cauldrons, and that seems reasonible. You mentioned 4, which would lead to a WEAK list. Additionally, those witches would be very easy to kill since you aren't buying them any sort of protection. Yes there would be plenty of dark riders, but if you don't get first turn, then a large number of them would be shot by crossbows in the first and second turns, reducing their ability to attack. Smart generals will then castles and reap the points off a couple of banners. I nFC units, banners are a liability.
Still, an interesting list idea, but it ignores the best abilities of the cauldrons, that they crank up khanite units just for being there.
rufus: Like last edtion, the dragon is never as good as the manticore when you consider it allows you to take a dark pegasus rider to support him. The loss of a character makes the dragon a tough choice when the manticore is available.
Phil
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for heroes perhaps a bsb with the ring of hotek (or whatever the thingy with miscasts on any doubles) and another one with magic resistance. ( I am not a friend of the scroll caddy) but if you want to include mages I think the big mage should be your thing in a dragon list one magic with two scrolls and a bsb would be enough for one turn to stall the magic and then hit em hard.
I like 7 strong shades with great weapons, when you charge infantry you get max attacks with the cauldron 14 ws 5 st 5 attacks are more often enough to get em even with full rank bonus and standard.
more maths
14 attack 9,3 hits with hatred 12,43 against T 3 with 5+ Save 10,36 wounds OUCH!
against T 3 with 4+ Save 8,6 wounds
and even without the cauldron they make 5,13 wounds on spears and 4,3 wounds on swords. Shades are quite brutal and also underpriced for Ws 5 Bs 5 scouting greatswords wielding goth pixies.
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Which is fine, but you assume someone is going to stumble within range of the place those shades are hiding. If they are in the open, they will either get charged or shot before reaching combat. Plus, thats against Empire troops. The empire will sit back and shoot, not move to a postion where they can be charged.
Phil
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it ignores the best abilities of the cauldrons, that they crank up khanite units just for being there.
It only makes them stubborn within 12". Not as good as the blessing ability.
rufus: Like last edtion, the dragon is never as good as the manticore when you consider it allows you to take a dark pegasus rider to support him. The loss of a character makes the dragon a tough choice when the manticore is available.
Ah, but if I were to use a manticore I'd have a hero riding it instead of a lord (so it would still cost an extra slot). I'd never use a lord on a manticore. Besides, when someone says they want to use a dragon, telling them they shouldn't isn't an acceptable answer. :icon_razz:
for heroes perhaps a bsb with the ring of hotek (or whatever the thingy with miscasts on any doubles) and another one with magic resistance. ( I am not a friend of the scroll caddy) but if you want to include mages I think the big mage should be your thing in a dragon list one magic with two scrolls and a bsb would be enough for one turn to stall the magic and then hit em hard.
I don't think magic resistance is ever any good, so maybe the BSB and scroll caddy will have to do. I don't like the ring of hotek either.
I like 7 strong shades with great weapons
Seven it is then, thanks.
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Philly you seem to shoot quite a lot of stuff with your 20 what crossbows. The shades shoot better than our 20 crossbows two unit of 7 with greatweapons are manageble in the army list without assasssin (even though he is tempting for that troupe) they dish out 14 shots that hit on a 4+ on long range if they are placed in a forest the only way to get them out is with magic.
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Well on the other hand a Dragon with extra attacks or a 5+ ward save could also be quite nice
Lord+Dragon
Scroll caddy
cauldron
2*7 shades
4* dark riders
propably not much points left but you could always include assassins in your shades :biggriin:
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It only makes them stubborn within 12". Not as good as the blessing ability.
Thats what I mean, why not take advantage of that ability?
Ah, but if I were to use a manticore I'd have a hero riding it instead of a lord (so it would still cost an extra slot). I'd never use a lord on a manticore. Besides, when someone says they want to use a dragon, telling them they shouldn't isn't an acceptable answer. :icon_razz:
Well, statistically, the manticore isn't that much worse, is cheaper, and doesn't take a special slot. Too good not to use in my opinion, especially given the bonuses from the cauldron and the spare hero on a pegasus.
Fandir: I actually don't use any crossbowmen in my lists. I don't use any small arms at all! I use piles of knights. And they do wonders to keep the lines open against fast cavalry.
Phil
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Thats what I mean, why not take advantage of that ability?
Why not just take black guard, who use the same slot and are better anyway? The blessing is possibly good enough on its own, without needing to waste points on witch elves and executioners to wring a little more value out of the cauldron.
Well, statistically, the manticore isn't that much worse, is cheaper, and doesn't take a special slot. Too good not to use in my opinion, especially given the bonuses from the cauldron and the spare hero on a pegasus.
Who cares about statistics? You don't base your warhammer army on what would be the most efficient choices! A lord on a manticore is flufftastically lame.
Lord+Dragon
Scroll caddy
cauldron
2*7 shades
4* dark riders
Interesting, but I need to have at least ten cold one knighs in any army. They are the reason I wanted goth pixies in the first place. :icon_smile:
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Why not just take black guard, who use the same slot and are better anyway? The blessing is possibly good enough on its own, without needing to waste points on witch elves and executioners to wring a little more value out of the cauldron.
Because it is fluffy? Mr. Fluffmiester. :dry:
Who cares about statistics? You don't base your warhammer army on what would be the most efficient choices! A lord on a manticore is flufftastically lame.
Why? They are much easier to obtain. Thye would be more available.
Phil
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I don't mean the actual fluff, which is a load of worthless rubbish that no one should ever read. I mean my idea of the fluff. :icon_lol:
Also, if I want a griffon manticore backed up by pegasus captains, I can do that already with my Empire stuff.
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will you use the lame cold ones of games workshop or the really big nasty gamezone ones?
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Hey, I really like the new GW cold ones! :icon_razz:
The gamezone ones are too cartoony. And expensive.
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the cold one unit 10 strong with hero attached or only full command and magical standard?
And a Dragon lord, your core choices should be corsairs and you always could claim to have a problem with scales.
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But they aren't GW and that makes the r0x0r and kewl. Apparantly.
The whole pegasus thing is no longer the option it was, since the new book took their extra point of strength away. When they were S5, they were brutal and bordered on broken.
FIne, use the gay dragon models and have fun.
Phil
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The whole pegasus thing is no longer the option it was, since the new book took their extra point of strength away. When they were S5, they were brutal and bordered on broken.
They get +1 strength when they charge, same as before (right)? And now they have hatred too. But there's no hero on a pegasus model, and I really can't be bothered with making one. Not when I already have five Empire ones.
use the gay dragon models
You don't know what my dragon looks like. :icon_razz:
Also, have you seen the manticore model they sell at the moment? It's awful! :icon_eek:
the cold one unit 10 strong with hero attached or only full command and magical standard?
I want a unit of ten with command only, no magic banner. That way they don't cost too many points.
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Hey, I have a manticore here. The model is fantastic other than those stupid 20 year old wings.
And they have yet to make a dragon that doesn't look retarded. Anywhere. Ever. Other than the D&D ones for their awful table top game.
Phil
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Hmm not even the armour piercing magical banner? I think it is not too bad with the str 4 from the lizzies for the case you ever get stuck.
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You like the manticore? With its stupid grinning face and its arms arranged to give someone a big hug? :icon_confused:
Also, the wings are only about fifteen years old. :icon_lol:
And they have yet to make a dragon that doesn't look retarded. Anywhere. Ever.
Wrong. :icon_razz:
not even the armour piercing magical banner?
That's the only one I was considering, actually. But I'd like to not use any magic banners if possible.
By the way, back to druchiiiiiiiiiiiii.net again - they have a million different boards, with only vague indication of where different threads should be posteds... and then the moderators moan that they keep having to move things around.
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Show me a dragon that isn't gay.
Also, Druchiiii.net sucks. The whine, they complain, they have Gav up their ass trying to please them, they think they should be the best and everyone else should be less talented, slower, have less powerful magic, and more expensive. They opitomize everything about the Dark Elves though, so they are at least on topic.
Phil
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lazy moderators.... :closed-eyes:
Hmm no magic banners but I would field them 11 strong or field the 10 6 first line 4 second. You loose one rider and loose one combat resolution and 12 attacks are way better than the plus 1 CR only if you reach combat as a unshot virgin. Hmm 20 unit strength fear causing is not bad.
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Hmm no magic banners but I would field them 11 strong or field the 10 6 first line 4 second. You loose one rider and loose one combat resolution and 12 attacks are way better than the plus 1 CR only if you reach combat as a unshot virgin. Hmm 20 unit strength fear causing is not bad.
That's what I was thinking - the extra models give the unit more resilience (a unit of five is of little use after a couple of casualties), and make the fear effect more useful (if you can find anything to attack that isn't already immune to fear that is!). I was going to deploy them six wide, with no rank bonus. Powerful and tough, but not so expensive that everything depends on them doing well.
I can't see the point in a unit of five with command and a magic banner, as some suggest.
Show me a dragon that isn't gay.
I'm not going to comment on the sexual preferences of mythical creatures.
But I note that you don't disagree with my assessment of the manticore miniature! :icon_razz: It's awful and you know it.
Druchiiii.net sucks.
If they changed the colourscheme to something readable, then reduced the number of boards to a third of what they have, then made everyone nicer, it would be OK. :icon_smile: Maybe if they were as happy and keen on hugs as the manticore it would be more fun over there.
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Perhaps we should ask nicely if there could be another category on warhammer-empire about other armies I would also like to discuss High Elf and Vampire issues here but in the counts tavern it always gets drowned so fast.
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Ill talk about vampire and high elf armies if you want!
Ill talk about most armies if given half a chance, its just most people on here are empire first and often only!
In all my games against the dark elfs its the hydra and repeater crossbow units who are the most dangerous. Dark riders are very expensive for the amount of shots. They are however very flexible, but my opponants who use the dark ones both have swopped most of their light cavalry for more core crossbowmen and spearmen.
Dragons are an expensive luxury. Just like in every other army who can have one.
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But I note that you don't disagree with my assessment of the manticore miniature! :icon_razz: It's awful and you know it.
What do you want him to be doing with his hands, basket weaving?!? Come on, he looks like he is about to molest a zebra or something. I do like the model, by far the best manticore they have made yet!
Phil
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by far the best manticore they have made yet!
Considering they've only made three or four and never done a good one, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement. It's terrible. It's not even particularly identifiable as a manticore. :icon_biggrin:
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I wasn't actually quite sure what it was till I read the box in the store the first time I saw it... :icon_redface:
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I don't really like the Manticore. and doesn't it sometimes make you frenzied?
But the morathi model is ridiculous, (my other potential lord choice) why is she naked?
My fluff for DE is going to be that they aren't like normal DE.
I wish Hydra's werent so underpriced.
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I wish Hydra's werent so underpriced.
Why? You are giving up two RBT's for hem, its worth its price.
Phil
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My fluff for DE is going to be that they aren't like normal DE.
Yes, mine too. I'm ignoring all the fluff, and I'm going to paint them in white, red and blue to avoid the terrible gloomy goth look. I'm not going to use dark magic either. Or assassins.
Due to the morathi issue, I was wondering about using balthazar gelt as an elf wizard on a pegasus. His mask means he could easily be an elf. It's annoying that GW don't make any worthwhile elf wizards other than the Mordheim one.
Or maybe the older bretonnian mounted sorceress (not the current one in the funny hat) might be suitable? You can't see her ears, I think, and she has some actual clothes on...
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Philly, I'd just feel wrong taking one, although my list really could use one.
RBTs are out as i am going all mounted/monstrous.
My fluff is that my general, whoever it was, spurned the DE murderous ways, tried to live a more"normal" life, but got found out and had to flee, and only the fast moving elements of his followers survived.
Good idea, I love the Gelt model. And most people probably wouldn't have seen it.
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So does Malekith allow male sorcerors now? Because didn't he ban them for a while?
Or is that your sneaky fluff. A sorceror on the run for his life.
I think there are probably plenty of cool ways to convert up a nice sorceress general. You seen the Dark Elves on Avatars of War? Great stuff! I have the Morathi mini and she badly needs stripping and repainting. If you want her to look more clothed I suppose you could always file down her nipple and paint it cloth colour...?
The manticore mini rocks. I agree with Philly here. I have it and it is great. My main complaint is that it only has that little beastmaster on top of it but I am thinking of converting up a general fellow to have up there too. I don't see why Druchii Lords can't ride manticores.
And for the record, my manticore is not smiling. He is growling.
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So does Malekith allow male sorcerors now? Because didn't he ban them for a while?
I think the new books says it's OK. But then, elves are a bit androgynous anyway. And also, who cares what the fluff says?
Besides, Gelt could be a woman. There's no way to tell from the miniature.
I have the Morathi mini and she badly needs stripping
But, she is almost naked already. What's left to remove? :icon_razz:
Plus, she has the world's stupidest hair style.
And for the record, my manticore is not smiling. He is growling.
Perhaps, but you can tell he doesn't really mean it. He's a big softy.
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Plus, she has the world's stupidest hair style.
Well I can't deny that...
Hang on, yes I can. What about the new Dreadlord on foot?
At least she isn't quite as bad looking as that new sorceress they brought out with the swirly stuff. And they managed to bring out a new sorceress on cold one without making it even 10% better. It still sucks. How hard is it to make a lady on a lizard look cool?
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What about the new Dreadlord on foot?
He also has the world's stupidest hairstyle
At least she isn't quite as bad looking as that new sorceress they brought out with the swirly stuff. And they managed to bring out a new sorceress on cold one without making it even 10% better. It still sucks. How hard is it to make a lady on a lizard look cool?
How hard is it to make a sorceress that doesn't have a disturbingly masculine face? Extremely hard, apparently.
Why would anyone want a wizard to ride a cold one anyway? I don't understand why they didn't make one riding a horse instead. :icon_confused:
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Philly, I'd just feel wrong taking one, although my list really could use one.
I wouldn't worry,honestly. If you are taking NO RBT's then you REALLY need the hydras. It is perfectl fine in terms of price, go forward with pride.
rufus: The guy who drew the 6th edition artwork for DE couldn't draw a feminine face to save his life. Why they let him do elves is beyond me.
Phil
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Dark elf sorceresses are nearly always naked or near naked. Not sure why. Maybe dark magic is attracted to naked elfs. I know I...er anyway :-D
I would have thought that living in the polar region you would want more clothing not less but I guess elfs must be cold resistant. Even the sorceress on Battle march computer game is topless.
Must be for the sad teenage boys, much like witchelfs. :-D
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yeh, they are naked for the lowest common denominator.
I had thought of saying gelt was a woman, but crimson, your idea of a male sorcerer fits perfectly with my fluff ideas. Yesss.
the Sorceress on cold one pisses me off. As rufus said, why not on a horse? same as not having any horse warrior priests for us, yet making a freaking robo horse. Stupid.
Maybe I will use a Hydra. And maybe I will take all the expensive stuff out of the Cold Ones to fit it in.
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maybe I will take all the expensive stuff out of the Cold Ones to fit it in.
What, these units:
5 CoK, FC, Standard of Hag Graef, Null Talisman, 225
5 CoK, FC, Standard of Slaughter, Null Talisman, 225
Quite right: you'd be crazy to take all that stuff on minimum-sized units. That would be like taking full command and a magic banner on a unit of five Empire knights.
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Quite right: you'd be crazy to take all that stuff on minimum-sized units. That would be like taking full command and a magic banner on a unit of five Empire knights.
I do that on occasion. It works well, but of course I have two back up nilla units also...
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Quite right: you'd be crazy to take all that stuff on minimum-sized units. That would be like taking full command and a magic banner on a unit of five Empire knights.
I do that on occasion.
Therefore, you are crazy.
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Well I did have one big unit of knights with magic banner, but i was advised to split it into 2. Although 10 would give me a better chance of fear auto breaking.
I might go one nilla unit of 5,
and one unit of 6, with a hydra banner BSB there for 7. 6 wide, with one buffer for casualties.
P.S.
Everyone should check out my army in the parade ground, I think I will be playing a game of warhammer today *shock horror*
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Actually, I did put a Warrior Priest with them also. Hmmmm...
Still, I have no problem being called crazy :biggriin:
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Also, I think some people on druchiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.net might take themselves too seriously. And they seem really conservative about colour schemes.
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druchiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.net is entirely too stuck on both themselves and their supposed importance to the goings on of their book. It is Gav's fault. That ass.
Phil
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I used to post there in the dim and distant past but it is full of pretenious p*Ģ$^"s these days. Much like the high elf website.
I guess a lot of people who play as elfs tend to be up themselves. Or at least they beleive the designers owe them something.
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I have thought about a list something like that 2250 points
Highborn(140), Ring of darkness (40), Armor of darkness (25), great weapon (6) 211 points
If I change this one to a hero with pegasus, Armour of Darkness, Lance and Repeater hand crossbows he goes with 175 points
Mage lvl 2 (135) , dragontooth crossbow (30), book of furion (15) 180 points
Mage lvl 2 (135), dark elven horse (12), dispel scroll (25) homunkulus (25) points 235 points
Witch with cooking pot otherwise naked 200 points
Assassin, 2 hand weapon, death splinter (throwing stars), bloodfire (wounding on 3+ ) 151 points
903 points total for characters
The hard core
22 spears(120) with full command(15)even the command is sooooooo cheap and war banner(25) 172 points
10 repeater crossbows, (100), shields (10) 110 points
10 repeater crossbows, (100), shields (10) 110 points
6 dark riders (102), musician (7) 109 points
6 dark riders (102), musician (7) 109 points
5 harpies (55)
5 hapries (55)
720 points
Elite
7 shades with great weapons 126 points
7 shades with great weapons 126 points
252 points
rare
hydra (175)
2 bolt throwers (200)
Models 58 (counting the hydra and the rbt only single)
Power dice 6
Dispel dice 4
The Highborn goes into the black guard making the unit very difficult to shoot at (ring of darkness halves the bs against the unit) and giving another 4 strength 6 attacks to the unit. If charged they deliver 13 attacks plus 4 attacks from the lord before the enemy strikes with the blessing on them it would be 24!!!! Attacks 5 of those with strength 6.
The spears will start in a 7*3 formation with the sorceress attached passive CR of 4 and 14 attacks with the blessing 28 attacks, enough to rip apart any other kind of soft infantry with detachments or without.
cold ones, hydra and dark riders stay back a little and try to exploit flank charges or even try to charge softened infantry frontal.
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That looks like a nice list, though I can't see the need for a combat lord on foot in the black guard. It seems like putting too many points in one place, and is probably overkill anyway. You could drop him down to a hero instead to help cut costs. Maybe lose some of the magic gimmicks you have as well (I'm not sure what a 'talisman of emptyness' is, but I bet you don't really need it).
Also, do you really need a focus familiar ('homunkulus') for your pegasus sorceress? And wouldn't that be a better place for the magic crossbow?
20 spears(120) with full command(15)even the command is sooooooo cheap and war banner(25) 160 points
Yes - what's the reasoning there I wonder? Cheaper command even than halberdiers! It breaks the usual pattern of command costs for no apparent reason, so is either a mistake or an example of bad design.
Now I've got a question: I wasn't going to use any assassins, but now I've got one anyway (it was a present). So, what equipment do people give them? Killing blow and + d3 attacks? That seems like the best combination to me. :icon_question:
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AHW, Killing blow, +D3 attacks, re roll 1s to wound, is a fairly standard assassin build I think.
I like the look of that list. the RoD is really good. I might wind up doing something similar years from now when I have done my all cav army and have more money to buy models!
Is it worth getting RXBs on your Dark riders for added shootiness?
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The homunkulus is great for the peggy wizard because you can fly her around and never need any line of sight. You just place her behind a wood or a house or whatever push the homunkuls out in the open and throw magic missles. Great for march blocking duties also.
The Talisman is the thingy that gives magic resistance 1...in german "Talisman der Leere" well void would fit better than emptiness on second thought.
The nastiest combination for the assassin is the throwing star with the poison that always wounds on 3+ three shots with BS 9 with at least strength 5 but more often 6 (there is discussion that it even goes up to 7 because the +1) is nothing to sniff at.
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just a quick point, the english translation is null talisman!
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actually I am not sure about the cold ones or the black guard at all the units are great but I would like a second unit of shades more crossbows and perhaps a single assassin more.
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Hello there boys and girls, I've been gone for a while, but I'm back!
That looks like a nice list, though I can't see the need for a combat lord on foot in the black guard. It seems like putting too many points in one place, and is probably overkill anyway. You could drop him down to a hero instead to help cut costs. Maybe lose some of the magic gimmicks you have as well (I'm not sure what a 'talisman of emptyness' is, but I bet you don't really need it).
They are expensive, but the best thing about Black Guard is that a big unit with a BSB carrying the Hydra banner can kill pretty much anything, and will simply refuse to run away. 3 attacks each, ASF, re-rolling to hit, with the champion and BSB getting 4 strength 6 attacks with ASF, re-rolling to hit. Even if you lose, there's a re-rollable LD9 stubborn ItP break check there. That unit isn't going anywhere, and considering you only need the front rank to cause some serious damage, it's certainly viable. I ran one, and at its best it went toe to toe with 20 plague bearers and a Herald, beating them in combat over a few turns. That re-roll to hit is awesome.
ow I've got a question: I wasn't going to use any assassins, but now I've got one anyway (it was a present). So, what equipment do people give them? Killing blow and + d3 attacks? That seems like the best combination to me. icon_question
It really does depend. A character killer with almost certainly want killing blow, re-roll 1's to wounds and +D3 attacks, as it maximises the chance of Killing blow. When I take executioners in large numbers, it's always with the AP banner, and the Assassin that goes with them benefits from that. +d3 attacks, 2 CC weapons and always wound on a 3+, striking first with AP, means that I can kill a few of the front rank even when facing really tough enemies, leaving less to attack the Executioners. The Executioners then get a chance to kit and tend to kick ass.
That said, in a heavy magic army, the bound spell steed of shadows, +D3 attacks and manbane with 2 CC weapons means you can use him to shufty forwards, before jumping a war machine or lone enemy, or perhaps even destroy small units like detatchments or skirmishers/fast cav.
I might go one nilla unit of 5,
and one unit of 6, with a hydra banner BSB there for 7. 6 wide, with one buffer for casualties.
The Hydra banner BSB with CoK kicks absolute ass. In general, the Hydra banner kicks absolute ass. If you want to end someone, a charge with this in there will sort it out most of the time. Personally, I run it in the Black Guard anvil, but using it with CoK is great as well.
As you may have noticed, I love Dark Elves right now. My current army is a force from Naggarond. Malekith has command over the convents of sorceresses, and has dispatched a Naggarothi army with a sorceress in command to do his personal bidding. As such, it contains warriors from Malekith's court, their retainers and a contigent of the vicious Black Guard to ensure his will is followed.
High sorceress
Level 4
Black Staff
Dispel scroll
=340pts
Sorceress
Level 2
Darkstar cloak
Dispel scroll
=185pts
Master
Great weapon
Heavy armour
Sea dragon cloak
BSB
Hydra banner
=194pts
10 crossbowmen
Shields
=110pts
10 crossbowmen
Shields
=110pts
5 Dark riders
Crossbows
Musician
=117pts
5 Dark riders
Crossbows
Musician
=117pts
20 Black Guard
Full command
Banner of Hag Graef
Crimson death
=355pts
6 Cold one knights
Standard and champion
Standard of slaughter
=237pts
6 Cold one knights
Standard and champion
war banner
=227pts
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I know special characters are disliked by many but a Hellebron witchelves army could also be quite nice donīt you think
somthing like
Hellebron on Manticore
2 Altar of khane
1 bsb noble
4 Assassins
4* 14 full command witch elves
4* 6 Shadows
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Spider, I love that list.
and Fandir, I think Hellebron is really good- too good to use!
I tried this other list
Sorceress, Level 4, Black Staff, Pendant of Khaeleth, 350
Sorceress, Level 2, sacrificial Dagger, Tome of Furion 175
Master, BSB, Hydra Banner, Heavy Armour, Shield, SDC, 190
20 Spearmen with Shields, FC, 155
10 Crossbowmen, Shields 110
10 Crossbowmen, Shields 110
5 Dark Riders, Muso, Crossbows 117
5 Dark Riders, Muso, Crossbows 117
5 Harpies 55
5 Harpies 55
15 Black Guard, FC, Standard of Hag Graef, 265 pts
Reaper 100
Reaper 100
Hydra 175
It's 75 points over, and I wanted some CoK. And with their spearmen being so cheap, there is no reason not to have 25 really.
Going to possibly use my old maiden guard as Black Guard, and HE unipose spearmen as the spearmen. Don't know where the level 4 sorceress would go.
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I'm thinking about using a sorceress on a dragon. The only trouble is, it's something like 680 points. :icon_eek:
Sorceress, Level 2, sacrificial Dagger, Tome of Furion 175
Two arcane items. Not allowed.
Going to possibly use my old maiden guard as Black Guard
I thought you didn't like that idea!
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and then to get the best out of the level 4, you need at least one level 2, and probably 2. leaving you with approximately 0 army.
Rubbish. I only put the tome of furion in because figured it would be good to have 3 spells for the dagger. I wonder what a typical spearmen sarificer build is.
No, I like the maiden guard as BG idea. Think they would need some minor conversions though. And worried it might not come off nicely.
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and then to get the best out of the level 4, you need at least one level 2, and probably 2. leaving you with approximately 0 army.
Do you though? What with the extra powerdice spell, I think you could mount a decent magical offence with just one wizard. Or two. You've only got two.
I don't know though.
I wonder what a typical spearmen sarificer build is.
I don't know, but fluffwise I hate the concept. It seems more like something skaven would do. There just aren't enough elves to go wasting them like that.
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The powerdice spell is not as good as people think. Generally, two dice are needed to cast it, making it hard to use anyway, then the opponent will ALWAYS dispel it. I love it! It makes for a good way to waste dice.
Phil
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Well, there's always that staff that casts it for you.
No hope for the dragon-sorceress then?
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True, but I watched a sorceress with that staff load up on 13 powerdice then blow herself up. Twice (two different games).
Phil
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I only have two, but I wanted three.
And haven't you heard rufus, DE kill each other all the time.
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I watched a sorceress with that staff load up on 13 powerdice then blow herself up. Twice (two different games).
Yes, but what kind of fool does that? :icon_lol:
Any time you are using ten or more power dice, you are playing idiot-hammer and deserve everything you get.
And haven't you heard rufus, DE kill each other all the time.
That's because the fluff is really, really, really, stupid.
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Yes, but what kind of fool does that? :icon_lol:
Any time you are using ten or more power dice, you are playing idiot-hammer and deserve everything you get.
Well, he didn't start with all those dice. The sorceress had 5, then got both spells off, and had the 2 spare dice. She sort of had to use all those dice or start burning. He still had a pile when he rolled the miscast, so I guess it could have happened with only a few.
Phil
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And haven't you heard rufus, DE kill each other all the time.
That's because the fluff is really, really, really, stupid.
You've been quite an angry rufus recently. Do you want a cup of tea Mr Sparkfire? :-)
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Well, he didn't start with all those dice. The sorceress had 5, then got both spells off, and had the 2 spare dice
Wait, you said the opponent always dispels it! :icon_lol:
You've been quite an angry rufus recently. Do you want a cup of tea Mr Sparkfire? :-)
Yes please.
And if I'm angry, it's because the internet (and the rubbish fluff in the dark elf book) makes me feel angry. I am very pleasant in real life. :icon_razz:
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(and the rubbish fluff in the dark elf book) makes me feel angry. I am very pleasant in real life. :icon_razz:
I don't have the DE book, or the inclination to get it. After all the moaning, someone explain to me what's wrong with it's fluffs?
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It's just really bad. Imagine something really bad, and it's like that. :icon_razz:
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Wait, you said the opponent always dispels it! :icon_lol:
Irresistible force on one, then I was nervous about what he might try to cast so I held my dice. This was against my ogres.
Phil
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And haven't you heard rufus, DE kill each other all the time.
That's because the fluff is really, really, really, stupid.
You've been quite an angry rufus recently. Do you want a cup of tea Mr Sparkfire? :-)
He's always angry on the internet. I am angry because the GW site is rubbish, and when I went to the Australian GW site to download the DoW stuff, my stolen internet can't handle it.
But yes, he is a top chap in the real world!
tostig, it is all about murdering, and constant fighting with the HE.
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No hope for the dragon-sorceress then?
I reckon there is. Sure, she's expensive, but there's definately a case for well-protected Spelcasters on large monsters. I wrote a little article about it regarding HE Archmages on Moon Dragons, on Ulthuan.net
Ah, the old Archmage on Dragon topic.
Well, the problems are pretty obvious. Firstly, to any respectable player, a wizard on a flying monster sounds like heresy, doesn't it? "Where's you nasty Prince of Doom!" they cry, and yet all are fools, fools I tell you!
Imagine you have a Dragon. What do you do with it? generally, you will use that lovely 20" move to attack war machines, missile troops, small unit like fast cavalry and skirmishers, that sort of thing. You can handle these easily, and catching the faster enemy unit is often a priority, something that a flying creature can do well.
In most of those cases though, the Dragon can handle the situation on his own. you do not need to Prince on the back because those 5 strength 6 attacks will do all the damage you need to smaller enemy units. Which makes the Princer basically 200-odd points of overkill. Why not, instead, take a character on top who can fulfill a different role? an Archmage is great for this. The Dragon to do his thing, whilst the caster on top uses his increased movement to get into good positions for spells and not have to worry about range.
Problem two, an Archmage is lightly armoured, and therefore about to get blasted into the next universe. Lies, all of it. Firstly, the Archmage has a 3+ save against any attack of strength 4 or less, and thats the Dragon below. He gets 10 hits with his archers, well oh look, only three are on the mage. What a shame.
Of course, 3 strength 4 shots can ruin any mages days, which is why you take the Guardian phoenix. This means that even should the wounds get through, you'll have some vital protection.
Secondly, anything more powerful will just blast through armour anyway. A Prince with a 2+ save and a 5+ ward dies just as easily as an Archmage with a 5+ ward when he's hit with a bolt thrower, or stone thrower.
Thirdly, you are a Dragon, and so can fly. Hiding behind cover as you close in is as perfectly legitimate plan, and something that means next turn you can be right in there with the enemy troops, flaming and casting to your hearts content. Terror is also great here. Then you can also charge random war machiens, detatchments and missile troops, which means there will be nobody to shoot you, so you can mock your foe derisively.
The DE sorceress on Dragon actually works better, because the Dragon has a slightly better armour save, and the pendant of Khaeleth is brilliant for what you intend to do (4+ ward save against weaker shooting, 3+ against better shooting, 2+ against most war machines).
I'd run...
High Sorceress
Level 4
Pendant of Khaeleth
Black staff
Black Dragon
=670pts
Sorceress
Level 2
Darkstar cloak
Dispel scroll
=185pts
Sorceress level 2
Sacrificial dagger
Dispel scroll
=185pts
20 Spearmen
Shields
Full command
=155pts
20 Spearmen
Shields
Full command
=155pts
5 Dark Riders
Crossbows
Musician
=117pts
5 Dark Riders
Crossbows
Musician
=117pts
5 harpies
=55pts
5 harpies
=55pts
Repeater bolt thrower
=100pts
Repeater bolt thrower
=100pts
Repeater bolt thrower
=100pts
But only if I felt a bit bendy. :biggriin:
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Thanks for the ideas regarding the dragon sorceress! However, I couldn't use that list since it conflicts with just about all of my ideas of what I want to do (I don't want more than two wizards, or any spears, or bolt throwers. I do want cold one knights).
So really, I'd just be using a dragon mage with two mounted heroes (general and BSB), together with a cavalry-based list backed up by infantry crossbowmen. Though I'm not sure I can include everything I want after spending nearly seven hundred points on the dragon rider.
he is a top chap in the real world!
How nice! :icon_smile:
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Thanks for the ideas regarding the dragon sorceress! However, I couldn't use that list since it conflicts with just about all of my ideas of what I want to do (I don't want more than two wizards, or any spears, or bolt throwers. I do want cold one knights).
A High Sorceress and a sorceress will do fine by themselves, especially in friendly games where a flying monster and 8 level of magic is over the top. Take out the spears, and put in another unit of Dark Riders, take out the RBT and put in a pair of CoK units.
High Sorceress
Level 4
Pendant of Khaeleth
Black staff
Black Dragon
=670pts
Sorceress
Level 2
Darkstar cloak
Dispel scroll
Dark steed
=197pts
5 Dark Riders
Crossbows
Musician
=117pts
5 Dark Riders
Crossbows
Musician
=117pts
5 Dark Riders
Crossbows
Musician
=117pts
5 harpies
=55pts
5 harpies
=55pts
6 Cold One knights
Standard and champion
Standard of slaughter
=237pts
6 Cold One knights
Standard and champion
War banner
=227pts
6 Cold One knights
Standard and champion
=202pts
Arguably even better. Hah! I might try that one myself!
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And haven't you heard rufus, DE kill each other all the time.
That's because the fluff is really, really, really, stupid.
You've been quite an angry rufus recently. Do you want a cup of tea Mr Sparkfire? :-)
He's always angry on the internet. I am angry because the GW site is rubbish, and when I went to the Australian GW site to download the DoW stuff, my stolen internet can't handle it.
But yes, he is a top chap in the real world!
Oh I have no doubt and he's charming and amiable online. It's just recently we've seen rufus UNLEASHED! and thought he needed a cup of tea to cheer up :-D
No tea drinking smiley! Have a pint instead! :::cheers:::
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RXBs suck.
is it even worth it on dark riders?
bs4, so 3's to hit. Most things at long range, 4s, multiple shot, 5s, move and shoot, 6s. And only Str 3.
I suppose the idea is to park a unit behind someone and not move.
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RXBs suck.
is it even worth it on dark riders?
bs4, so 3's to hit. Most things at long range, 4s, multiple shot, 5s, move and shoot, 6s. And only Str 3.
I suppose the idea is to park a unit behind someone and not move.
Yeah bs 4, I wonder how they can even use the crossbows...No serious bs 4 is about the best there is for core troops. Can't even think of any exceptions...:unsure:
Only str 3? what did you expect? don't forget the AP.
RBT are quite good, expensive but often worth it.
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I wasn't complaining about the BS4, although strength 3 is odd. Should call them repeater bows, not repeater crossbows!
I just don't think they are worth it on dark riders where you will be hitting a lot of things on 6s
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I wasn't complaining about the BS4, although strength 3 is odd. Should call them repeater bows, not repeater crossbows!
I just don't think they are worth it on dark riders where you will be hitting a lot of things on 6s
Hmm, it's still worth it in some occasions. Especially if they're fighting other fast cav units, for instance pistoliers. In that case, missile weapons are needed very much.
Besides, in my (limited) experience so far, they tend to hit on a 5+ most of the time, 6+ only if shooting a really juicy target (lone wizard or something), since those tend to either be lone characters or at long range. And the RXB's are worth it just for the annoyance factor - they won't do much, but your opponent can't just ignore the unit!
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Dark Riders without crossbows are like tits on a bull. They just sort of hang out there with no real purpose and are generally useless.
Phil
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Dark Riders without crossbows are like tits on a bull. They just sort of hang out there with no real purpose and are generally useless.
It's the king of the sweeping generalisation! :icon_lol: There's more than one way to kick a cat in the face, as they say.
I plan to use a unit of eight or so dark riders with command and a BSB with the ring of can't shoot me very easily. They will act as a very maneuverable attack unit supporting my cold one Kataphracts.
edit: also, I thought I'd already said thanks to Spider_wells for the sorceress advice, but I don't seem to have. So, thanks! Thanks for the earlier assassin advice too, people who gave me assassin advice. :icon_smile:
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Well that seems like a lovely pile of points. If it happens to get caught, things could get real ugly, real fast for it.
But I repeat, why not give the DR xbows? They aren't that bad and give you far more variety.
Phil
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It's not that many points, provided you don't bring a load of five-point crossbows too!
If it happens to get caught, things could get real ugly, real fast for it.
Well, that's true of most things. The unit will be protected by the power of its cool concept. :icon_razz:
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Fair enough, but thats still a unit of FC worth more than 300 points. Seems a bit... soft. But it is DE, they bath in blood to remaiun soft.
Phil
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Come to think of it, they could have crossbows as well. It wouldn't be that much more expensive, and it would fit the concept even better.
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And you could say "pew pew" as you shot them.
That's what I plan on doing, anyway.
My box of warriors and glade guard should arrive tomorrow, so expect some test models soon.
I'm thinking black and green.
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And you could say "pew pew" as you shot them.
Of course.
I'm thinking black and green.
That sounds good. Post pictures when you've done them - I want to see how the gladerider thing works out.
I've painted my assassin in grey and dark blue, and he looks cool. I didn't think I liked the model from the weird way they had it painted in the army book.
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Grey and dark blue sounds good. I don't want to use blue as all my armies seem too, and purple/red seems a bit of a DE cliche. In my mind I have a rich green, with light green highlights- thinking a mix of the base colour plus bleached bone? it will probably turn out horrible as my painting isn't great.
They wont have heads for a while- I want to use cloaked glade guard heads for dark riders and shades and I might be trading with Siberius for them.
Im going to use corsairs as shades too I think, not sure how it will work out really...
Balthasar Gelt will be my pegasus sorceress, and a HE mage I have will be a dark steed sorceress, The next modeling challenge is a BSB on a cold one.
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I'm actually thinking of using a lot of white for my DE army, should contrast pretty well with darkish armour. I'd like to do dark red, or purple, but that's indeed very cliché.
Hmm, or perhaps dark red, but then with bronze armour... Hmm... Guess it's time for some test models.
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I saw one on druchiiii/net which had bronze armour, it looked sweet.
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I'm actually thinking of using a lot of white for my DE army, should contrast pretty well with darkish armour. I'd like to do dark red, or purple, but that's indeed very cliché.
Hmm, or perhaps dark red, but then with bronze armour... Hmm... Guess it's time for some test models.
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=58114
I'm half tempted to use this, although I kind of want black armour. not sure.
My packages still haven't arrived, so can't start yet god damn it.
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Something like this?
(http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2632/nottdelfth2.jpg)
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Yes, pretty much. :-D Although possibly a more vibrant green.
Did you do that one? It looks like the model from the link i posted, with the dark eldar head, and the pale skin tone.
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*Brushes Photoshop under the carpet*
Yep, whipped it up from the huge amount of bitz I have at Uni with me...
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Jesus, that is some highly skilled chopping there! Can you do it with green and bronze armour?
I'm heading down to the store for the club night now, although I am not going to play unpainted demon guy, so wouldn't be surprised if there were no opponents there!
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(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b90/Iyagd/WarriorIII-1.jpg)(http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2632/nottdelfth2.jpg)(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9216/nottdelf2iv0.jpg)
Fair enough. I'm off to Bristol tomorrow fencing so I'll give it a miss ;)
I checked out the place that girl recommended. Looked good, with 10% off all GW stuff. If you enter the Guild Hall from the Queen's Street entrance it's upstairs on the left, above the expensive shoe place ;)
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Hmm, I like that bronze armour. Can you do one with dark-red clothing?
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(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6554/nottdelf3ax2.jpg)
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I'll have to buy you a pint to make up for saving me all those test models, awesome work mate! I just don't know which one to go for. the silver and darker green go well together, as does the bronze and more vibrant green. And I suppose I'd have to work out which greens to use.
and good luck with the fencing.
I will check out that store, the GW store only has about 4 fantasy players who go.
Cisse, the guy posted a colour guide to his armour on the link I did.
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Nice pics!
Bronze look very nice for armour, and I use them on my High elf/Wood elf spears aswell. With grey for clothes.
Druchiis looks so nice... I so much want to start... Damn that vow...
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Bronze look very nice for armour, and I use them on my High elf/Wood elf spears aswell.
Bronze is good for wood elves, since I like to imagine they can't touch iron, as in folklore.
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Yes, the bronze looks very nice.
I'm going to do a few test models, see how it turns out. Dark red and bronze seems the most likely contestant now, but I'm still going to try a variant with very light grey or even white clothing to see how that looks. Nice I think, but it might not contrast enough with the skin.
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My Glade riders and Warrior box arrived!
Shame that the glade rider cloaks form half of their back. Do glade guard cloaks do the same thing?
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Yes, they got the same pit in their back. But cloaks would not be that bad for Dark riders, would they?
If you remove the arrows sticking up from the quiver, and remake the quiver into somekind of backpack or backpack+swordcasing, you can still use the cloaks.
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After some careful thought, I might go for this army list:
hero on comedy manticore - armour, crossbow, killing blow lance, ring of miscasts
hero with battle standard on a horse - armour, lance, ring of can't shoot me
wizard level two, magic crossbow
assassin - extra weapon, bow, killing blow, +d3 attacks (with one of the shades units)
15 crossbowmen with shields, banner and musician
6 dark riders with crossbows
5 dark riders with crossbows
5 dark riders with crossbows
10 cold one knights with command and banner of armour piercing
7 shades with great weapons
7 shades with great weapons
6 shades with great weapons
hydra
total = 2250 points (for 2000, I'd probably drop the manticore for a horse, and lose some shades)
also, this is my assassin:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/dark%20elves/assassin1.jpg)
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See you posted stuff on druchii.net, and people just said "not fluffy enough"
haha.
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I'm in the middle of making a unit of the new corsairs with the handbows (I have old corsairs that are normal so I fancied getting the new fancy ones).
If one were to field say 10 of them, what is the general consensus about command? Any? Certain ones? I just don't want to make up a half useless unit.
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See you posted stuff on druchii.net, and people just said "not fluffy enough"
Like I care. I piss on the fluff! :icon_lol:
The cauldron does suck though, it's true. It's just a model I had lying around anyway.
I'm in the middle of making a unit of the new corsairs with the handbows (I have old corsairs that are normal so I fancied getting the new fancy ones).
If one were to field say 10 of them, what is the general consensus about command? Any? Certain ones? I just don't want to make up a half useless unit.
I think most people call them useless no matter what. I'd probably just give them the champion with two bows and skip the rest of the command.
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People are always calling things useless. It's so sad. Why can't they embrace the not quite so amazing things eh?
Anyways, thanks for the advise. I think I shall go with that.
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Rufus, did you convert that head, or does it just come with a skullmask-less face?
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People are always calling things useless. It's so sad. Why can't they embrace the not quite so amazing things eh?
Anyways, thanks for the advise. I think I shall go with that.
Keep in mind I've never used a dark elf army! :icon_smile:
I agree with you on using the less-than-perfect things though.
Rufus, did you convert that head, or does it just come with a skullmask-less face?
What, the assassin? I didn't do anything to it. Does it have a skull face in the army book?
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someone posted a pic on druchii.net with a skull on the assassins mask.
It is interesting to see other races opinions. I was reading a thread over there about how overpowered Empire are, because we are like space marines for fantasy so GW love us. ridiculous.
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Pfft... They must be drunk. Empire the Space marines of Fantasy? What planet are they living on? Hmm... Lets see... Compare the halberdier to a Tactical Marine... Nope... Eh... Not even the Greatsword fits the bill really. If he would have said Imperial Guard, it would be so true, but Space Marines...
I saw you was at Ulthuan by the way Notts. Now you who are an outsider. Which is the whiniest elven race? That is sort of an ongoing debate...
But please, do not count my posts into the weight, for they will just ruin the statistics! :icon_razz: :blush:
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I know what you mean notts. Same with WEs on other forums... I'm not say they are weak (I know they are powerful), but they do have some obvious weaknesses
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It was weird. They didn't seem to realise halberdiers blow massive chunks, our BSB for some reason cannot take mundane equipment, our hellblaster got nerfed etc. I suppose if you face a 2 stank and waltar army then Empire are fairly disgusting, so maybe people encounter it a lot...
Surely to deal with a stank you just shove a few RBT bolts down its arse, once it takes a few wounds it gets hard to use, right?
And Mathi, I'm not really on Ulthuan, I just want to try and sell my models without resorting to ebay. (i have a big enough army to have 2000 points I think, would need to add say, some white lions and some characters, but I just can't bring myself too! hopefully in the future I wont have a change of heart and want to play as HE)
I'd put wood elves in the second tier, along with the other elves and Brets perhaps.
But Druchii.net is fairly whiny. I find it really unfriendly as a whole.
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I think druchiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.net is OK, but it's hilarious how many of them feel the need to tell people that their colour schemes are wrong. Or that they are using the wrong models. They are probably the ones who insist on using the idiotic word 'druchi' instead of saying 'dark elf' like any remotely reasonable person. :icon_lol:
What's it to them if you don't make your dark elves look dark? :icon_confused:
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Careful, there are a significant number of odd ducks around here who use dawi, asur, asrai, or whatever the hell people call dwarves, HE, and WE> I never know what people are talking about. Why use the stupid churched up name instead of terms people actually recognize?
The Drucki.net crowd is the definition of players who take themselves and their fluff way too seriously. Gav only fanned the flames when he basically gave them free rein on the alteration of the DE revisions.
Phil
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I always get confused when going on asrai/asur websites, or whatever the hell they are called.
I ended up on some kind of metal website yesterday.
I'm so impatient to start with my DE, and i'm finding there is more stuff that I want in my army than I can realistically fit. I've decided I want an assassin in a unit of shades.
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I think 'dawi' is even worse than 'druchii.' I have endless amounts of hatred for that daft word. :icon_biggrin:
The Drucki.net crowd is the definition of players who take themselves and their fluff way too seriously.
Maybe it's the colour scheme over there that does it. All that black is very solemn. :icon_smile:
I always get confused when going on asrai/asur websites, or whatever the hell they are called.
I ended up on some kind of metal website yesterday.
:icon_lol:
I've decided I want an assassin in a unit of shades.
Copycat. :icon_razz:
p.s. I happened to look at my wood elf army book the other day, and it's amusing how much better dark riders are than glade riders. Yes, I'd love to pay two extra points for a worse unit, thanks!
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Sorry! I just like the damage potential, can be a nice little trick to mess some fools up!
My test spearman is coming along nicely, I will probably post some pics later tonight.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P241008_2123.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P241008_212201.jpg)
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Ha, I just commented on this in the other place!
I think bronze armour goes better with dark green.
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Hmm. I may as well paint another one, and see which I like better,
I', not sure about my green highlighting, dont like it as much as Tostig's photochop, but don't really know what to do.
Also, any hints to make it better? I have trouble with higlighting, always seem to do it really heavy handed.
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Heavy handed isn't necessarily bad. I often have trouble making it show up enough at all. I like that guy, the green is interesting.
Course, it might be easier to see on one of the cooler models of the range. I'm not trusting my colour scheme till I've finished this black guard tester.
Anyhow, I think the LGS round here is holding a mini one day 3 game tourny thing in a couple of weeks (first time I'll have ever done anything remotely like that) and it is 1000pt an army. Before I went to bed last night, I canme up with this slightly weird and weighted to one side army:
Sorceress L2 on Pegasus (reverse ward, tome of furion)
Master on foot
Reaper
5 Dark Riders (inc command) - no xbows
5 Dark Riders - no xbows
17 Spears (inc command) - war banner
5 Harpies
5 Witch Elves
6 Black Guard
And I think that's it.
I probably sunk too many points into the sorceress, normally I'd rather rely on more troops and less characters but I suppose the idea of this would be to fling the dark riders out wideready to flank whilst running my small infantry forwad ready to combine the two whilst my Peggy jumps behind their lines and Death magics them to... well... death.
Is it as rediculous a list as it looks? I realised part way through that I kinda combined two ideas in one with this army. She was meant to act as a march blocker as the rest of my army held back and peppered them and then I realised once I had finished that the only other shooting thing was a reaper, oopsh!
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list looks very fragile.
someine with, say, a unit of crossbows, pistoliers and outriders would make you combat ineffective in a turn or two.
I tried painting a bronze armoured RXB dude, and am kinda happy with the armour, but messed up the green highlight, so wont be able to post it until later. I am having trouble with it, when I want to do my middle highlight it either ends up being too dark and looking too similar to the basecoat, or it ends up being too light and kind of like scorpion green which I don't think fits.... Will try again later and post it.
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Siberius: Ditch the witches and black guard and load up on spearmen. At 1000pts. you don't have the luxury of elites.
Phil
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I would like to field an army of shadow warriors HE with the DE rules, it seems kind of sensitve for me to swap the longbows with captured repeater crossbows so shades shouldnīt be a problem, spears, reavers and the repeater bolt thrower are also no problem what units would you say could fit in an Nargarythe army?
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I was scared that it'll be fragile. Not helped by the fact that 1/4 of my points is sunk into one character. :|
I think I have enough spearmen to take out the specials and have another unit...
Or should I just give up on the whole peggy idea too?
Gah, too many cool units and not enough points!
They are probably the ones who insist on using the idiotic word 'druchi' instead of saying 'dark elf' like any remotely reasonable person.
:cry: I like to say Druchii. I don't insist everyone else calls them that... am I still idiotic?
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I wouldn't bother with magic at 1000. take a couple hitty characters, one for each spear unit, though it isn't necessary since they are teh aw3s0me!
Phil
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I always get confused when going on asrai/asur websites, or whatever the hell they are called.
I ended up on some kind of metal website yesterday.
Asrai is indeed a metalband =P.
rufus, how are Dark Riders better than Glade Riders?
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They aren't. They have a penalty for moving and shooting and can't move through trees without penalty. Plus, the Glade Riders get all of their gear included in their points.
Phil
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I'm not sure about Glade Riders, having faced them a few times now, they seem pretty vulnerable and the lack of actual shots seems to make them second to Dark Riders in my book. Both units can probably make a mess of pistoliers though, at least they have thus far.
And no magic? *gulp*
How about maybe a L1... I can imagine her being quite effective, maybe with the tome of furion and the free Dark magic spell to boost power dice. A fairly good chance of getting a spell or two off I'd reckon...
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if you are going with pegasus, then I'd go level 2.
if not, then drop to level 1 with tome of furion, and use the extra poiints (plus dropping witch elves) to add RXB to your dark riders and numbers to the BG.
Would be nice if you could get a hammer in there to sweep off the BG anvil, but not sure where from, and a DR rear charge would probably do it in all honesty...
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am I still idiotic?
No. You are awesome and cool. :icon_biggrin:
They aren't. They have a penalty for moving and shooting and can't move through trees without penalty. Plus, the Glade Riders get all of their gear included in their points.
:icon_lol:
Gladeriders are two points more than dark riders with crossbows. They don't have light armour. They have longbows, which are longer ranged (who cares!) but neither shoot twice nor are armour piercing. They do not have hatred. Even their command costs more, except for the champion... and that's because dark riders get a double-stat champion.
Thus, worse. It's not even an argument.
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I still think there is an argument. Hatred isn't that great for Dark Riders. Yes they get two shots, but the one shot from the glade riders will often result in the same number of shots. That they can make full use of forests make them a good choice who is not limited by forced pursuit or woods drawing. My gnoblars have forced dark riders into the forest multiple times.
Phil
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No, it's no contest. If glade riders had light armour and cost the same as dark riders, they would be comparable but different. As it is, you can tell the wood elf book is a couple of years old. It has the figurative brakes on.
Still, glade riders weren't very highly thought of when the book was released either, as I remember.
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I have always found them to work wonderfully with dryads. While the dryads pile in the wounds, the glade riders steal the ranks. That both can use the woods as sally points only adds to the synergy.
I still think they have their place, and prefer them, though I can recognize the DR as being more efficient.
Phil
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I can recognize the DR as being more efficient.
Hey, that's all I said in the first place! :icon_razz:
Also, I think wood elves are too dependent on woods. It's a lame way to design an army. What are they going to do if there are no woods on the table and it isn't a pitched battle? Cry, that's what. :icon_lol:
Still, let's forget the tiresome tree pixies, since this thread is about the melodramatic goth pixies.
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I find it really really hard to fit the things you want into a 2000 point list. You pretty much can't take 4 characters if you want anything cool after.
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am I still idiotic?
No. You are awesome and cool. :icon_biggrin:
Why thankyou :lol:.
In my awesome coolness, I have taken on board some of all of your advice, some of which I took on before you gave it :-o, well, at least before I read it, maybe your mind waves hit me as I wrote up my alternative list. Here it is, roughly. I like it! It's got troops on the board and speed and some bolt action!
Master with Blood Armour + Shield + S.D.C + Seal of Ghrond
17 Spearelves inc command with war banner
5 Dark Riders with command w/o xbows
5 Dark Riders w/o command but with xbows
6 Harpies
12 Crossbowelves
5 Cold One Knights with dread knight & musician
Reaper
It's a sorta back to basics army. I don't have a lot of staying power in my infantry but the plan is that my multiple cavalry units can help out to win combats. Plus I have some shooty DRiders and my harpies to try and take out the magic users of the enemy whilst the seal gives me the magic defence of a L1 for 30pts :lol:.
I'm playing my wife's Wood Elves in the morning so I'll report back how they get on against those miscreants, then at some points soon, all being well I shall unleash it on my brother's Empire.
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That looks like a good list to me!
Also, here's my first cold one knight:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/dark%20elves/coldone2.jpg)
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Oh wow, he's stylish. Really like the red skin on the cold one.
Mine have been stuck in a luminous scaly green for years now and I've got to figure out what colour to take them in my repaint.
Kinda hoping that they decide to do the new cold ones as 'bits' so I can remount all my current knights as to be honest, there is nothing wrong with the old knights.
Are the cold ones plastic?
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Thanks! :icon_smile: I think blue could work well for cold ones too.
The cold ones are plastic (and are the best plastic thing in the GW range, I think), but they are mixed in on the same sprues as the riders. So I can't see GW making them available separately.
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Hey thats a nice looking cold one!
Phil
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The riders are plastic too? :-o
Well, my new list massacred the wood elves to pieces. My Cold Ones were particularly brutal, trampling over at least 3 units single-handedly. I barely needed anything else. I think she's decided her list doesn't work though and will revise it to make it a lot more competative. She's gonna whack some dryads in there for fear power because with my autobreaking CoKs, she had very little she could do to hold up their reign of terror. I know they are still going to meet their match against cannons and the like, but the new CoK are actually worth a shot with the hatred thrown in, they can hurt people. They use to be so terrible I stopped using them.
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The riders are plastic too? :-o
Yes the riders are plastic. Everything is plastic. Plastic plastic plastic.
Well, my new list massacred the wood elves to pieces.
Oh good!
Hey thats a nice looking cold one!
Thanks! But according to some, it looks like a high elf. :icon_confused:
Which is what I wanted, really. High elves and dark elves are the same thing to me.
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I think it looks like a High Elf too.
And all pointy ears are the same to me also...
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Well I don't know about being a HE. If it looks like a HE because it is an elf then I guess...
WE should be able to field a pretty good DE smashing army... if she wasn't using Dryads, then I can see why it was a massacre...
Phil
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Frankly, many elf players are mentalists. Are dark/high elves defined by their colour schemes only? Are they appealing to people with limited imaginations? :icon_lol:
Honestly, the reaction to my dark elves that look a bit like high elves because they are the same thing anyway is like the reaction from some dwarf players towards my dwarf cavalry. :icon_biggrin: Maybe the less fluff you have, the more you cling to it.
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Ouch! That was low....
Phil
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I actually really like the idea of doing dark elves light or high elves darker. Like you say, they are so closely intertwined. Plus, it looks really cool! :-P
Yeh, expect dryads to be appearing from now on.
And the news that the new cold one knights are plastic interests me. It makes me think more and more that all the complaints about plastic not being as usable to make really nicely detailed minis is becomming less and less of an issue. Those Druchii knights are as nice as anything else I've seen in metal really.
And the corsairs, whilst overly fiddly, are an exercise in how much detail you can really put on a mini.
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The CoK are awesome minis. But the empire troops are an example where the ability to have more detail in plastic should not have been utilised...
My DE fluff is "light" DE.
And i'm going to have a male sorcererr, so na na na na naaaa
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And i'm going to have a male sorcererr, so na na na na naaaa
Don't say that at druchiiiiiiiiii.net! You will upset the carefully-ordered world of some of the denizens.
I advise painting dark elves in black with skull banners, preferably also with a big sign that says 'we are dark elves, and are evil and stuff.' It wouldn't do to confuse people.
Also, any female miniatures should be both naked and unreasonably well-endowed, because dark elf women exist only to indulge male teenage fantasies.
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well, I'm using the gelt model, so I guess that will piss them off.
BTW, do you think I could fit some kind of master figure onto the pegasus so I could swap between sorcerer and master?
I hate the female models. Morathi is particularly bad.
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do you think I could fit some kind of master figure onto the pegasus so I could swap between sorcerer and master?
Not very easily. That pegasus is very difficult to fit a different rider on - all the ones I've seen look like the rider is falling off.
Maybe you can work it so that Gelt looks like he could be a combat guy as well as a wizard. He has a helmet already, and could have armour under his robes.
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We'll see I guess.
I just want a RoH pegasus master if I am going with limited magic.
Don't know what to do about cold one characters either. I need all 5 guys from the box for my unit.
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(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P271008_210001.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P271008_2059.jpg)
The photo isn't as good as the spearman one for some reason...
Verdict?
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I can't really tell from that picture. Maybe you could take another one.
The green bits look nice though.
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Damnit, I already tried other photos... I guess I will do it again.
And yes, I'm pleased with the Green.
Not sure which armour I prefer, and also the RXB itself looks crap just brown.
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You could paint the crossbow in metal. They'd probably have to make it out of metal anyway, if it was real.
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(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/sea%20guard%20and%20maiden%20guard/ebay%20october/goodfront.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/sea%20guard%20and%20maiden%20guard/ebay%20october/goodback.jpg)
If this is n better, then I will wait till its sunny tomorrow.
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It's still not that easy to tell, but I think the bronze armour probably does look good with the green.
What do you think of the plastic warriors? Do you like them?
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No they are awful. I ave about 50 of them here in spear/xbow form. They are old, HUGE handed, bad skirted, and bland. but they work for what they are, especially if they have the shield covering most of them :D
Phil
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The only thing I don't like are the skirts.
Oh, and some of the heads look stupid.
But I like that they are 6th edition- you can mix and choose the parts, unlike our crappy 7th editions ones. I think the spear Elves look pretty sweet. Are you using them, or do you have old models or something.
I'm going to try and get some better photos tomorrow. the armour is black and silver mixed, drybrushed with a mix of dwarf bronze and tin bitz, drybrushed with burnished gold, I then added the valejo smoke wash I used on my pikemen, but I think maybe this dulls it back down too much and takes off the gold, and then added shining gold highlights on the very edges.
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I've actually got a box of the plastic warriors that I haven't assembled yet (they were a present). I'm only using crossbowmen, since if I want lots of big infantry units I can use my Empire... or dwarfs... or undead.
I think they look OK on the sprues, but they don't really match up to the cold one knights. I'm certainly not using the incredibly daft-looking standard. Also, I like the dragon shield design, but the skull ones are awful.
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Nice, I wish people gave me models as presents.
True. I'm going to start with my original planned all cav and magic list, and then spread out slowly. Probably will get some BG at some point. Execs are cooler, but useless.
the CoK are the best models I have seen from GW. And a big reason why I am getting DE. Well, the old CO were so bad that I would never have got them. I'm using the dragon one, ignore the skull one!
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Did you notice that there is a Dame Edna head in the old spear/xbow box. I never understood why.
I'm affraid I used the skull shields, but I think it looked ok the way I painted it, though they are all up for a rehaul now so who knows... the standards do indeed suck and I think with all my newer bits they might be on the way out.
I'm still in the process of doing up my test Black Guard, Corsair and a Shade who I accidentaly converted into an assasin looking type bloke.
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Probably will get some BG at some point
Yes, I need to get some of those too. I really like the alien look of the miniatures. I like the executioner models too, but I've heard they have awkward separate sword blades that always fall off. Combined with them being a bit rubbish in the game, this puts me off.
Did you notice that there is a Dame Edna head in the old spear/xbow box.
:icon_eek:
Is there?
I'm still in the process of doing up my test Black Guard, Corsair and a Shade who I accidentaly converted into an assasin looking type blok
Pictures!
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I guess my black guard is pretty ready... so maybe in the next couple of days I can post a piccy of him. My corsair and shade are some way off cos i only just started them.
And tomorrow I have my second tester 1000pt battle against my brother's Empire. Should be interesting. I'm confident in my list but you never know what he is gonna bring to the table so...
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So my W-E D-E friends, which is it to be, silver and green, or bronze/gold and green
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P241008_2123.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P241008_212201.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P281008_133702.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P281008_1340.jpg)
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They aren't that different really! :icon_smile:
Still, bronze I think.
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they look extremely different irl.
the photos suck as I had to use our heater to light them up and it just kind of blasts the colours out.
the silver looks very dark, quite black-ish with silver highlights.
and the bronze looks... very bronze.
the bronze looks more detailed and intricate, the silver looks more foreboding.
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Have you tried 'Beaten Copper' - I used that with DA Green for my Kislevs...........
:engel:
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I really like the brass and green better. The silver is fine, but the brass look just seems to compliment it and is a bit more unusual looking, nice combo.
In other news, I played my 1000pt list against Empire today and scored a major victory. I don't know how cos I lost my reaper to a cannon shot, over half my cold ones to a spell and fled my harpies into a building all on turn 1! I thought I was screwed for sure. But I tried to keep calm whilst it all fell apart and concentrated on what strength I had left, which was pretty much in my Dark Riders and Spearmen. Initially my DR were split up but after the loss of the CoK I figured maybe I should try and use them in tandem so I switched them over and left my Spears & Xbows to hold the one flank whilst they took on the other.
It worked a treat, the DRiders cutting through pistoliers, knights and the artillery whilst the Spearmen took a head on charge from knights and pistoliers and gradually destroyed them.
The heavens no5 spell really played havoc with my weak magic defence though. 3 CoK and in turn 5 all of my Dark Riders were sent packing by that thing. Strength 4 no armour saves at any range is brutal! Still, he only had that wizard and the remnants of some swordsmen left at the end.
I'm happy with the army as it stands, I just need to really hope that other people will have less magic to blast me with. Today could have gone either way. A fun battle all round :-)
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how did the DR cut down the knights, combo charge? or insane amounts of shooting.
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Combo charge, both units of 5 charged at once, albeit from the front. I won mainly by weight of numbers, though with all those re-rolls I think one of my steeds managed to finally get through the armour!
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I don't know what other robe colour to have along with the Green, what goes well?
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What, on models in the same unit? Or different units?
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same unit. for spear elves I mean things like their shields and sword scabbard
but for Dark Riders they are quite rob-y!
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White looks good with green. Otherwise, I'm not sure really. :icon_confused:
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/Unfdall/Druchii/RxBUnit1v2.jpg)
Something like thism he has the turquoise to go with the yellow...
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my shades, which I like. especially the ninja one on the left, haha.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P311008_182601.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P311008_182602.jpg)
the 3 DR which I like
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P311008_1830.jpg)
the two DR which I dont like. I might change them.
this guys head, spear arm and hand bow are all too close together
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P311008_183101.jpg)
this musician is holding the horn not at her face!
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P311008_183102.jpg)
I'm quite pleased with my bases, except my cork is not thick enough.
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Those are excellent.
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Yes, they look great. :icon_smile:
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Wow notts.
Those warriors are perfect.
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Thanks for all the comments!
I think I will still change one of my DR, and my Shades don't really have GW, so hopefully I wont play any wysiwig freaks.
I really want this army to look lovely. My Empire are pretty bad, particularly all the models I painted when I was 13... So I want a really sweet looking army, and the small numbers of troops I have to paint should help me with that!
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(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P051108_124901.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P051108_125001.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P051108_1249.jpg)
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They look fine - overcompensating on a height issue are they - not enough cork???
Is the written comment in the picture a self-evaluation .................. :icon_wink:
Got a job yet ?
Got that phone fixed yet ?
[As you couldn't talk to me, Soth and I spoke for nearly an hour instead ............]
:engel:
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well Bases take peoples attention from my less than stellar painting, and also my fluff is that this is a group of renegade DE hiding in some mountains.
no, notes for my seminar on the foundation myth of Halicarnassus. of the joys of ancient history.
no (although I did hand in 3 applications yesterday, and have an interview next thursday)
and no
As you can tell, it's been a productive few days!
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Looks like good table-top quality to me Notts!
Up for a game on Monday by the way? Apart from a history essay I haven't got anything until next Friday, I think.
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Sure. I have a job interview at 11, can't imagine it will laste ages.
1 o clock at GW?
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I was thinking about the new place in the Guildhall, but GW is fine. 1,000 points?
A job? :Ohmy:
Oh, and I'm out of credit, as ever...
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yes. I really need one!
the other place is fine, although I looked for it once and couldn't find it. just ring my doorbell at around 1
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I shit stormed a DE army Wednesday. HEre is roughly what was on the board:
1 High Sorceress on Dragon with reverse ward, cloak, and something...
2 sorceresses with stuff I never got to see
2 spearman units - 24 models - sorceresses were in here on horses.
2 dark rider units - 5
2 crossbow units - 10 each
1 black guard unit - 18 models - full command
2 repeater bolt throwers
6 harpies
I used:
1 BO Warboss - kitted out
1 BO BSB
2 Goblin heroes
2 NG units - 36, netters, 3 fanatics
1 NG archer unit - 20
4 Bolt throwers
16 BO - generals unit with banner of butchery
23 BO - BSB unit with dispel dice banner
2 giants
His first turn magic phase was beyond bad, and the army was living and dieing by it. I went first, got 4 wounds on his dragon first turn with BT fire. By turn 3 I had killed the dragon with fanatics (though the sorceress was almost untouchable with the stupid ward save). A unit of BO with shields against the black guard make for a very bad day for the black buard. While they had 12 attacks per turn, they would hit with 10, wound with 5, then only get 2 wounds through. Meanwhile, the BO warboss would carve off 4 models and the BO would net another couple each turn. With the rest of the army getting run at by three other units and two giants, there was nothing he could use to flank.
NG spearman units are too much for everything but black guard. They net the DE units to S2, then beat them with numbers. Its ugly.
DE = Gay
But his list sucked. There is no excuse not to fill the rare slots. A hydra would have made all the difference, except i would have smashed its face in with my warboss. WAAAAGHHHH!
Phil
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seems like a fairly standard static magic dependent army.
How did you go for magic defence?
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I was actually completely out classed. I had 5 dispel dice. That was it. My plan was run straight at him with 4 power blocks and a pair of giants. Shoot the big stuff with BT's and hope I could hit his line intact. His lord had 5, both the 2nds had 2. Add their three power dice spell trys and that was alot of magic potential. But once I started getting into combat, scaring him with giants, and blasting dragons, he was thrown off his game plan a little.
His magic was insignificant for the first two phases, due to really bad luck in turn one, and a little bad luck and a couple good dispels in turn two. Now on turn 3 and 4 he started getting those Black Horrors off and killed ALOT of models, but I had already gotten his Black Guard, a unit of spearmen, 2 darkrider units, the harpies, the dragon, both archer units, and both 2nd level sorceresses. It was a bit of too little too late. Plus, the black horror only kills BO models 33% of the time. Still hideously powerful. In one turn he managed to kill 11 black orcs with RBT's and a Black Horror.
It can be good, but magic is simply too inconsistant to be used unless your wizards can also fight (hence the reason Vampires and Demons are so good - but they don't get any shooting either).
Phil
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(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/darkrider.jpg)
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Very nice notts!
Phil
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Wow Notts, they look amazing!
I am quite jealous of your WE shades. I made mine out of corsairs, and now I am cursing not thinking of that.
I would have posted the same thing on Druchii.net, but they scare me there. Their mods are nazis. Not like our nice cuddly mods. Also, my monitor has this weird auto-adjust thing, where dark pages are even darker, and light pages are even lighter. It adds to the feel of druchii.net. Although, not being able to read what they say can be helpful :lol:
Also, by the by, has anyone thought of using the new Marauder horseman as Dark Riders? They look fairly suitably evil, but I haven't seen any good pictures of them yet. Only GW ones, which are usually a fairly poor representation of the actual model.
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I'm putting some Marauder riders on the Cold Ones for my update to my Chaos Mortal army.
Well, haven't done it yet, but the models are in their boxes on my shelf.
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Very nice! And the spearmen suffer from HE hand syndrome...
Phil
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I like those little chaplets.
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new dark riders!
musician:
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P201108_2221.jpg)
other guy
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P201108_222101.jpg)
another guy
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P201108_222102.jpg)
group shot
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P201108_222104.jpg)
I'm not as pleased with them as my Crossbows. Don't know why. And I have not decided on metal or wodden RXBs, or on my other colour to use to contrast with the Green.
C and C please!
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Wooden. Metal Xbows wouldn't work, they would rust or tarnish, and would be too heavy. We aren't talking about dwarves here.
Phil
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Metal.
Nice dark riders.
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Because living in the woods would make them like dwarves.
Phil
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Exellent! Exellent!
Great stuff there, Notts! And your painting is great! Do not be ashamed of it. I would hardly dare to put my simpletons beside your masterpieces!
And I get pretty tempted to do something myself with druchii fast cav.
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Wooden. Metal Xbows wouldn't work, they would rust or tarnish, and would be too heavy.
Real crossbows usually had bows made of metal or some sort of horn composite, which is what makes them powerful. The stock could be wood.
As for rusting - so they shouldn't use any metal at all then?
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I am shamed. I thought he meant the stock itself. I thought all crossbows used composite materials for the bow itself, thus the power of the xbow.
Phil
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Well my painting is pretty poor, but I just try to be quite neat, and do easy things. I think it is quite easy to get a force which all together will look very nice.
And also, I'm painting an army of hate filled elves, some of them riding velociraptors, backed up by a fire breathing Hydra = I don't give a shit whether real crossbows would be metal or wood, I just want them to look nice!
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Well my painting is pretty poor
These look very good to me.
I don't give a shit whether real crossbows would be metal or wood, I just want them to look nice!
I know, but PhillyT annoyed me with his silly remark about dwarfs living in the woods, or whatever it was. I've done my crossbows entirely in metal, because they are made of magic happy pixie metal that is as light and fluffy as a marshmallow, but also stronger than steel. Like that crazy stuff in lord of the rings
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DE playing douche bags...
Phil
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Just wrote up a 2000pt army for a mini tourny which hopefully we will be having in December. The first one I wrote up was a total mess because, well, the new book is so fun I can't bring myself to want to leave anything out. Gah! Anyways, I'm more happy with this one. It relies mainly on shooting and magic to bring the enemy forwards onto my (tincy tiny) combat units. It's a tad risky in that there isn't much meat to it but I'm hoping that there won't be too much left of them to have to worry about.
My S.Sorceress will trot forward with and then leave a unit of Dark Riders to go hide behind something mid table and then focus familiar all her spells, thus not being able to be charged or shot (at least this is the plan). I really love the spearelves from the last few times I took them and I place a lot of trust in their ability to win combat. My Cold Ones will probably hang about till someone comes close (maybe behind something, though it's tempting to leave them in the open to soak up missiles, it'll depend who I am facing).
L: Supreme Sorceress L4 on Dark Steed (focus familiar, pendant of khaleath)
H: Sorceress L2
C: 12 Crossbowelves inc champ
C: 12 Crossbowelves inc champ
C: 6 Harpies
C: 6 Dark Riders with xbows inc champ & mus
C: 6 Dark Riders with xbows inc champ & mus
C: 24 Spearelves inc command (warbanner)
S: 8 Shades inc champ with 2hw & l.a
S: 6 Cold One Knights inc champ & mus
S: 12 Witch Elves inc hag and mus
R: Reaper
R: Reaper
I know you probably will all say how much witch elves suck, but I had a little points to spare (and not enough spearelves to fill them) and those witch elves are relatively cheap and I know there is a still a fear factor of them in certain opponents so they may avoid them/shoot them up some) and even if 4 or 5 make it to the enemy, that's 15 attacks extra...
I really need to get me a Hydra or two one of these days, but even without them, trying to narrow down my army is terrible... which is kinda nice in a way... ;-)
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Very suseptible to shooting, no combat boosters. The army would get crumpled like a can against most armies with characters. Magic is only average, meaning it would get wiped out by a significant threat or average defense.
I have no idea where you get the idea that spear elves can win combat. My unit of NIGHTGOBLINS kills them EVERYTIME I have fought. Netted for only S2, they cannot kill anything and lose to static CR.
I still love you.
Phil
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No Philly, spearelves are the best. Infact, they should be made into the new elite infantry and Nightgoblins should get a rule about autofeeling whenever spearelves get close. That is good ruling.
After all, come on! Why should goblin infantry win anything against such elite creatures as elves? They are clearly too good.
Goblin infantry should be made so crappy you only would take them for the fun of your opponent so he can wade through them laughing manically. :icon_razz:
On a serious note, of course that Spearelf unit is meant to be used together with something else that comes in to molest the enemys flank. A Cold one regiment for example, or even Dark riders. Still, it is wrong... Elves should by their very aura of awesomeness all have two attacks per base!
There is no problem with that, really, you always have the trusty static CR and massive shooting to deal with such things. :icon_wink:
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Back to reality...
One infantry unit isn't enough. There is no reason not to have 2 at the cost of spearmen. then you support them. The army lacks a potent hook to win.
Phil
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My trusty spearelves have taken out everything they come up against. Maybe they just got lucky. Course now I come to think about it, they did have a noble in there too...
I've got a feeling I'm not going to be facing any magic heavy armies (unless there are any surprises it should be Empire, Ogres, Lizards and Wood Elves) so I'm thinking that my sorceress can reign supreme. I may be wrong, but in fairness I will have 8 powerdice (unless I cast that spell to get a couple more) which should give me dominance over those races listed. Plus, enemy wizards will be a high priority target so that I can really lay it down. I have harpies, dark riders and reapers so they're gonna have to hide pretty good to avoid me.
The lack of infantry is a bit scary though I actually have 2 comabt units, not just one :-P.
I did consider black guard as my secondry unit but I dunno, figured I'd get less of them so I went witch elves. I could shrink a rank off my spears and get the extra points necessary but I dunno...
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Stand your ground and donīt give in, Siberius. It is a fine force.
8 powerdice is a strong magic phase, and should be considered as such. Just because you can take more does not mean it is socially acceptable to do so. Yes, you have my permission to do nasty stuff to such people who spam with 10+ powerdice... Talk about onesides games.
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My trusty spearelves have taken out everything they come up against. Maybe they just got lucky. Course now I come to think about it, they did have a noble in there too...
That helps, but I wonder what units they ran into. Statistics and personal observation both point to them being about the same as a state troop unit, though the hatred helps a little.
I've got a feeling I'm not going to be facing any magic heavy armies (unless there are any surprises it should be Empire, Ogres, Lizards and Wood Elves) so I'm thinking that my sorceress can reign supreme. I may be wrong, but in fairness I will have 8 powerdice (unless I cast that spell to get a couple more) which should give me dominance over those races listed.
It will be 8 PD versus 4 DD on average. Thats only one or two spells per turn. Not enough to dominate. It is good, but not really worth the point commitment. You need to go BIG or go defensive unfortunately.
Plus, enemy wizards will be a high priority target so that I can really lay it down. I have harpies, dark riders and reapers so they're gonna have to hide pretty good to avoid me.
Defensive wizards won't struggle to avoid you though.
The lack of infantry is a bit scary though I actually have 2 comabt units, not just one :-P.
I only see one real combat unit. 12 witch elves are a support, not a main infantry block. Black guard would be passable in that quantity.
I would still say the shooting is good, magic is above average, but combat is bad. Not seeing where the hook is to victory.
Mathi: It is a fine list in a completely uncompetitive setting, but it wastes points on magic which won't be able to be truely game changing and cannot win in combat. It is what it is.
Phil
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Hmm, you make some valid points there. It is a lot of magic for just 2 spells.
I'm trying to remember what my spears came up against. One time was some Saurus (actually I think it was 2 Saurus units one after the other, but they were only 10-12 in each unit. I think the other time might have been Empire knights. It's all blurry now though :-P. Iwould be looking for the combo of getting the dark riders in the back, or maybe hte cold ones in the flank of whoever took them on.
I've realised writing this army though that I don't have a lot of combat bulk in my dark elves, even though I have around 4000pts worth.
I have 25 corsairs, 25 Spears, 20 Black Guard, 12 Executioners and 20 Witch Elves. Writing this army really did make me realise that I'd like some more spears so I can do a tactic like this more effectively by having to semi-solid blocks for all that cheap goodness. As it is, I have to have one and try and throw together a more elite unit beside it.
I'm not set on it yet. I started to write up a 'take it to the enemy' list last night but then I had to sleep. Maybe I'll post it as an alternative later. I'm thinking that under the settings we will be playing (friendlyish competitive), the Sorceress would be a horrible surprise to most of them. I'd feel guilty taking another one to up my magic that much more. I've never been very good at veering more towards the WaaC lists because ultimately, I guess I'm not a very WaaC kinda guy.
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how many points is 12 witch elves?
couldn't you add a Hydra?
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12 witch elves with hag is only 125 points.
I'd probably have taken a hydra if I had one. I just have never gotten around to getting one, waiting to get one a bit cheaper :oops:.
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I would field the black guard everytime and then the spearmen. That would give two strong blocks. Drop the witches, skimp some points by dropping the champions and one model off each dark rider units.
Phil
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I would either add in another sorceress, or use the Lvl 4 as mainly defense, with the hope to get some spells through using PoD.
if you use the lvl 4 as defense, you can add in a master for the spearmen.
You should also drop the witches and add in some BG I reckon. There are plenty of points to be saved, ie drop 1 DR from each unit, drop 2 RXB elves from each unit, drop a couple of shades and perhaps the shade champion.
Also I would give them great weapons.
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Almost finished my cold one.
Not happy at all with his underbelly... any ideas?
And also: blue stripes?
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P011208_1138.jpg)
black stripes?
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P011208_113801.jpg)
or no stripes?
(or the blue and the black look the same and you can't tell them apart)
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That looks great. Paint more of them. :icon_biggrin:
Oh, except the eye on the second picture looks huge, like you've painted the bit around the eye the same colour as the eye itself.
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I tend to paint the eye last so I can lay in the skintone over the top to cover up those sorts of slips. DE have even less eye to get at too...
Phil
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painting eyes is annoying. I kind of try and ignore them normally!
So you guys think the underbelly is ok?
and the stripes look good?
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I think it looks fantastic!
Phil
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Yes, stripes = rule. Underbelly is fine. Just fix the eye!
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They were quick to paint too.
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So I've been playing the Empire army for quite a long time, and I think I want to branch out. It's starting to feel a little stale.
One of my friends originally started playing Dark Elves, but did not like them in 6th edition. He went off and spent a bundle on the new Bret models, and likes that army better. He's looking to offload his Dark Elf army, and I am thinking about making him an offer for it. He'd probably give me a relatively low price.
What do we think about the new Dark Elves book? I really, really liked the new High Elves book, but I haven't gotten my hands on the Dark one yet. Is it going to be a good complement to my Empire army? The models are quite different, the paint scheme would be different. Would the play style be different enough to interest me?
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there is an 11 page long DE thread in the Counts tavern.
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Hooray, now I will read it.
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I chose DE because I wanted an army different from my Empire, so I have gone fast, MSU and magic heavy.
But Most competetive DE armies have a unit of spearmen and BG, backed by 2 RBTs, a Hydra, some CoK, some shades, some Harpies and DR.
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I'm not quite sure what MSU stands for, but I'd probably be most interested in something with limited ranged support, limited heavy units, and things that are fast. I can get my shooting fix with cannons, and my heavy fix from the steam tank. I need something totally different to throw my gaming group, they know all the detachment rules by heart, and I can't tactic myself around their massive blocks of orcs and chaos warriors. I think DE is going to be my best bet.
Vamps would probably be closest to my heart, but one of my good friends already plays them and he'd riot if I started buying models.
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MSU = Multiple small units
for example fielding four units of swordmasters each five strong instead of one big chuncky unit of 20.
the four units add up to 40 attacks with 0 combat resolution.
the big chunky unit adds up to 10 attacks with 4-5 combat resolution.
against most enemies those 30 extra attacks make up for 4-5 empire swordsmen.
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I like dark elves because the cold ones look really nice. That's the only reason.
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I like dark elves because the cold ones look really nice. That's the only reason.
Sure it is Goth Boy...
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I like dark elves because the cold ones look really nice. That's the only reason.
Sure it is Goth Boy...
Yes, I forgot about my desire to express the crushing pain and utter bleakness of everyday existence. So that too.
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Anyway.
Does anyone actually use the black amulet? I know that stupid pendant is better (and that you can get the pendant and the regeneration armour for the same cost as the amulet). But the pendant is the lamest thing ever, and the amulet is cool.
I think a goth pixie lord with the black amulet = awesome and flufftacular.
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Anyway.
Does anyone actually use the black amulet? I know that stupid pendant is better (and that you can get the pendant and the regeneration armour for the same cost as the amulet). But the pendant is the lamest thing ever, and the amulet is cool.
I think a goth pixie lord with the black amulet = awesome and flufftacular.
And it goes really well with the mandatory Goth Pixie black eye liner and nail varnish. :-D
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Thanks, but I can supply my own fashion tips. :icon_razz:
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See I think you should take The Black Amulet because it's seriously old school, I've still got the Magic Item card somewhere from the "Goblins vs High Elves" edition of Warhammer. Ahh the memories . . . . :closed-eyes:
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Me too. I loved that set.
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Thanks, but I can supply my own fashion tips. :icon_razz:
Thank God for that - i wasn't looking forward to you in the Goth Pixie look at next year's Eurobash ............
.......... even though it may have got Shadowlord to attend .............
:engel:
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Thank God for that - i wasn't looking forward to you in the Goth Pixie look at next year's Eurobash ............
So you prefer the colour-blind surfer look then? :icon_razz:
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I was gonna say "Ouch" till I realised you said that yourself :-P.
I want to use the Black Amulet, I really really do. But I get all nervous using anything much over 50pts in and of itself. So I'm scared of it.
Anyways, this Saturday, my Dark Elves get to ride out in another mini tourney against who knows what. It's 2000pts, probably just playing 2 battles against randomly assigned opponents if it's anything like last time.
I already posted maybe 2 potential army lists and it's not like me to rewrite these things. Usually I write one out and stick with it, come what may. But with the new book giving so many actual viable options (not to mention the unviable options which I always like too) that I am constantly filled with indesicion. Here is my latest and perhaps final army:
L] Dreadlord: h.a, sh, s.d.c (pendant of khealeth, soulrender)
H] Battle Standard: h.a, r.c.b, s.d.c (seal of ghrond, enchanted shield)
H] Sorceress L1
C] 23 Dark Elf Warriors inc command: l.a, sh, sp (war banner)
C] 6 Harpies
C] 5 Dark Riders inc mus: sp, sh, l.a
C] 5 Dark Riders inc mus: sp, sh, l.a
C] 10 Crossbowelves inc guardmaster: r.c.b, l.a, sh
C] 10 Crossbowelves inc guardmaster: r.c.b, l.a, sh
S] Cold One Chariot
S] 20 Black Guard inc command: h.a, ha (standard of hag graef, null talisman)
S] 6 Cold One Knights inc dread knight & musician (null talisman)
R] Reaper
R] Reaper
Seems like a fairly balanced army to me. The plan is for my dreadlord to be in with my blackguard. They should be really nasty with a.s.f and him especially with his armour piercing great weapon. The army standard will be in with my spears to give them some staying power and walk alongside the black guard.
Everything else will pretty much roll as normal and adapt depending on what is infront of me. What do you think to this mess then? :-P
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Well, I don't think the seal of grond and the null talismans are up to much. Why not get the ring of hotek instead? Either on the cold one champion or the BSB (and you could swap the BSB's enchanted shield for the armour of 1+ save). And maybe a dispel scroll for the wizard (there's not much point bringing a level one wizard at all, otherwise).
Using the pendant of lameness is bad, and you should feel bad for doing it. :icon_razz:
Why bother with champions on the crossbow units?
Have you really got shields on your dark riders? So they don't count as fast cavalry, but gain nothing except a minor increase in armour save? :icon_eek:
Twenty black guard with a lord character is a lot of points in one place. It's a bit risky and inelegant.
Where's the hydra? :icon_razz:
I want to use the Black Amulet, I really really do. But I get all nervous using anything much over 50pts in and of itself. So I'm scared of it.
Me too, but it's just so cool!
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Woah there for a second. If you have a shield you no longer count as fast cavalry? :-o
I did not see that rule. :cry: And here was me thinking that the new shield option made them even better! I shall have to rethink them now. Take away their shields. I want them pretty much to be harriers as I can't really afford the xbows. They are more there to march through or past the enemy and then cause havoc.
I do feel partially bad for using the pendant. But then I feel partially good. It's not that evil and other armies have their uber cool take every time items too. I'm determined not to take it to every battle but it's going to be hard to justify it to myself... and this is a tourney afterall (albeit a very friendly one).
I don't have a hydra yet. Maybe someone will surprise me for Christmas :wink:.
The champs are in the xbows because I had a couple of spare points and I always like rolling the extra easy dice :-P.
You know, I did go back and forth with the whole eggs in one black basket thing but the only other way I can see to do it is leave the Black Guard to themselves, switch that banner to the battle standard and put both guys in the spears. Then that has eggs in one basket implications of it's own.
Oh the choices!
Would you vote for that over the scary BG?
And yes the Black Amulet is cool and I always used to use it on my Chaos Dwarf Lord on Great Taurus back in the day... but back then it was cheaper... and brutal characters were a must. I miss those days :-P! Great Taurus and Lamasuu flying together, one with a Lord, one with a Sorcerer lord.
*begins reverie*.
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If you have a shield you no longer count as fast cavalry? :-o
For Dark Riders. See their army book entry. That is beginning to look like a trend actually.
I do feel partially bad for using the pendant. But then I feel partially good. It's not that evil and other armies have their uber cool take every time items too.
I don't think anything is nearly as underpriced as the pendant of unkillability.
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I think there's almost no point in using shields on dark riders, unless you are mad enough to use a unit of fifteen or so (so that the rank bonus is significant). Losing the fast cavalry rule is too much of a drawback.
There's no excuse for the pendant of lameness, ever. Sorry! :icon_lol: Well, maybe for a wizard lord. Never on a character with an armour save.
Get a black amulet, and win through the power of old-school awesometasticism!
You know, I did go back and forth with the whole eggs in one black basket thing but the only other way I can see to do it is leave the Black Guard to themselves, switch that banner to the battle standard and put both guys in the spears. Then that has eggs in one basket implications of it's own.
Two expensive characters in ordinary spearmen is certainly a worse idea than having the lord in the black guard, if those are the only choices. At least the black guard are reliable. Spearmen + two characters = invitation to lose the game. Plus, first striking spears = who cares.
And yes the Black Amulet is cool and I always used to use it on my Chaos Dwarf Lord on Great Taurus back in the day... but back then it was cheaper... and brutal characters were a must. I miss those days! Great Taurus and Lamasuu flying together, one with a Lord, one with a Sorcerer lord.
I don't, because the game sucked. I really liked the chaos dwarfs though.
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Yeh, the shields are going. If I'd have known that I'd have never stuck them on there. Thanks for the good spot :wink:.
I shall ignore your comments on the pendant. You've only just started playing Dark Elves. I have been playing for years and years. That's years and years of tooled up Highborns charging gloriously into combat only to get cut down nonchalantly by some pathetic Empire Captain after totally failing all my attacks and being entirely too squishy. No more I say! Now shall I be feared by those who once mocked me! Mwuhahaha.
(Ok, I didn't really ignore your comment per se).
You are right about the spears and the a.s.f thing. I much prefer the scariness of a unit of Black Guard with armour piercing Str6 Dreadlord attacking first regardless of who charges. I know they are a big points total but I'm running low on viable infantry units and I like the idea of having my Dreadlord in a powerful infantry rather than in a large but even more vulnerable cavalry unit.
And yes, Chaos Dwarfs rock. That's more why I miss those days. Though, never do a seige with them. Worst mistake ever! :-P
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And yes, Chaos Dwarfs rock. That's more why I miss those days. Though, never do a seige with them. Worst mistake ever! :-P
Am intrigued! Earth Shakers and Death Rockets should be able to put pay to the gate if not the walls themselves. Hobgoblins swarm up, no march blockers on your admittedly slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow Chaos Dwarfs . . . . Chaos Dwarfs should rock in a siege situation.
As for defending, Earthshaker's worth it's weight in points and your sloooooooooooooooooooooooooow Chaos Dwarfs don't have to move anywhere! :-D
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Maybe I should qualify the statement by mentioning that the earthshaker was the one Chaos Dwarf thing that I never got (3 deathrockets, oh yeh, but an earthshaker, alas no).
I should also mention that it was against high elves and that he was able to repeater any hobgoblins fast enough to reach the walls as my Chaos Dwarfs lumbered across gently. I believe they ended the game wholly intact and about 2 inches from the wall base. *sigh*
It was almost amusing.
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Haha must indeed have been quite funny...
I can imagine them saying:
"steady lads, steady!
......
Almost there now!
......
Almost... We'll let them have it!
Damn, too late! Thwarted again!"
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And I suppose it was back in the days of 4 turn average so your stumpy little legs could only go 24" if the wind was right :happy:
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You gots it. What was really offensive is that I believe he was able to sally forth his silver helms to mop up the hobgobbos and get back in the castle before I got near them :roll:.
Still, you gotta love the little fellas :evil:
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Chaos dwarfs are nice, but back to goth pixies.
From the netherworld of the internet, I stole this picture of the new pixie models:
(http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49204&d=1229082664)
They are a bit rubbish. :icon_sad:
edit: and no wonder - Gary Morley! :icon_eek: Why!
:icon_lol:
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12 quid for a mounted character is freaking ridiculous.
And he has 2 handweapons, which you cant even have.
DE definitely did not need foot dreadlords with different weapon configurations- so annoying!
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Yea, way to much going on with the mounted guy... it is nice that I don't (necessarily) have to convert a BSB though... oh wait. He's not on a cold one. Crap.
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I like the one with the great weapon. But back to them offering lots of options for foot troops. Why make the rules for mounted characters so good, then add foot units galore?!? Its like all of the goblin hero models. Why when nobody will use them!
Phil
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So, these are a waste of space. Where are the new dark riders and harpies?
p.s. I use dismounted characters, because taking the best choice is lame. :icon_razz:
Not for pixies though. Pixie characters should ride horses.
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I certainly don't mind using the foot characters either. But I really don't need any of these. With all the old character minis (Black Guard Champs, old Corsair Champs etc) I am more than well provided for. The best thing here is that Dark Rider hero. And if I used him, that banner would be unstrapped from the horse. But look at the horse. If that was a sign of what the Dark Riders horses will look like, I think we can start to get excited about those guys...
That 2 hand weapon dreadlord is horrible. Terrible pose, nasty head... and I have a feeling it's supposed to be a woman, yuck!
The Corsair looking one is better but really rather similar to the old Corsair champion who points, so.. why?
I thought the top one was the alternative Dreadlord head for the current one they brought out and hence available already...?
In other news, I took the shields off my Dark Riders, the crossbow off my battle standard, the shields and guardmaster out of one of my crossbow units and that freed up enough points to get my sorceress the staff of sorcery for a tiny bit extra magic protection. Thanks for the helpful hints Rufus 8-).
Today is the big day...
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p.s. I use dismounted characters, because taking the best choice is lame. :icon_razz:
Hear hear!
The Female Dark Elf with two hand weapons is a pretty good sculpt in my opinion. As is the Dreadlord with Great weapon. I to am curious about the Dark Elf with two hand weapons mounted . . . Perhaps they know something about 8th edition we don't! :ph34r:
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From what I read, the three Gary Morley ones were made more than two years ago, and have only just been released. So the new dark riders (if they ever appear) might not look anything like that.
Today is the big day
Good luck!
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Not bad, though the wardancing crone is probably better off as Helleborne or whatever her name is.
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Taking the best choice certainly isn't lame, lets not be too stupid here. That said, there is nothing wrong with fielding characters either mounted or unmounted. What I was commenting on was the fact that GW changed the rules to make mounted characters in units viable, then failed to produce the variety of mounted characters to reflect that decision.
Phil
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On a different note, someone on druchiiiiiii.net made a dark pegasus by sticking the pegasus bat wings on a plastic cold one. Which ought to be an obvious thing to do, but somehow wasn't, and is awesome.
There's still no clear choice for a sorceress miniature to ride on it though, since all the ones GW make are under-dressed drag queens.
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I too noticed that thread and it is an idea that I might actually nick because as you say, it was very very cool.
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I'd hate to sidetrack discussion of that spiffy cold-one/dark pegasus (I saw it too on durr...uchii.net and thought it was quite a novel and inventive solution to the silly looking actual black pegasus), but I'd like to chalk up a concern for one of the new Dreadlord models.
I think such a rampant display of nudity, or semi-nudity is disgusting, and the way it is just presented to us in a format that kids can get to is just appalling. :icon_evil: The model I'm talking about? It's the dreadlord with greatweapon :icon_wink:. My first impression when I saw that model was that he was holding a limp penis in his hand. What's more worrying was the fact that the "penis" wasn't attached to anything and was purple... :icon_eek:
Still, he's better than the Gary Morley Dreadlords with Handweapon and Battle Standard. They look strange and perhaps out of place: the horse's armour seems badly done (perhaps it's the paintjob? :?) and the other guy doesn't look like his sword has a blade (he also looks like he's got the forrunner of an emo-fringe goin' on there :icon_rolleyes:).
At least DE's actually have some dreadlord models this edition... :icon_lol:
Anywho, sorry my first post in this DE thread seems so full of hate and penises, I just couldn't help myself. It felt it kinda belonged here. :|
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sorry my first post in this DE thread seems so full of hate and penises
If I were the sort of person who put quotes in my signature, I'd use that one.
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Well if you aren't... sigged!
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*sigh*.
So, the tournament we kinda played yesterday.
It all went wrong. I think this GameStore is more used to running 40k events. I don't know how long it would take to run a 2000pt battle in 40k but I am guessing less than WH. I don't blame the people there for getting it so wrong because they are new to trying to run WH stuff and so still trying to get to grips with it, but they suddenly announced as we were getting ready to play that the games would only last for an hour (including set-up). This was of course rediculous because as we demonstrated in every battle played, you really can't get past 2 turns in that time. Not with so much to set up.
So it became a weird thing where we played 2 games, the first of which we were already deployed for and playing when they made the announcement which meant you couldn't even adapt for it. The second of which meant you deployed to blast the stuffing out fo your opponents and never let them into combat.
We had Empire, DElves, WElves, O&G, Dwarfs and Lizzies. Needless to say, the Dwarfs won by a landslide, being able to blast apart the enemy while suffering very little damage themselves.
My Dark Elves faced the Lizzies and the O&G. It wasn't much fun. The first game I was already advanced halfway across the board with my big killy 600 pt unit when I discovered they were never going to make it into combat. Hmmph. I then got my spearmen obliterated by 3 salamanders (I do not like them, not one bit).
The second game, I was more prepared and stayed back and killed the O&G who had no-one that could shoot more than 16", poor guys.
I did make the mistake of letting some squig hoppers bound into my Cold One Knights. I had never faced them before. My brother had just played them and told me they bounced right off his knights so I thought, let them come, I'll win combat and scare them off. They got 7 in contact which meant 14 hits with strength 5! Youchy! I won't make that mistake again.
Anyways, that was about all I had time to learn from the battles before it was all over.
The Dwarf and the Lizzy got to play in the final due to salamander and gunline shooting. We went home early, and somewhat disappointed after all that planning our armies.
I think what I might do for next time is start communicating now with the store and helping them to get more solid guidelines in place for the next one so we know what to expect and maybe help them have a more realistic schedule. I think maybe if they want to do 2000pts again, they might be better off doing just one randomly assigned game each and play to conclusion. I'd much rather of had that than what we did have.
Still, I think next time it is going to be small 500pt forces in quick escalating battles so that should be a lot more doable in one day.
Until then, I'll just have to rue what might have been had my dreadlord in his unit of Black Guard ever have managed to get into combat...
:|
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Anyone who thinks a warhammer game of that size can be played in one hour shouldn't be running a tournament. Honestly, how hard is it to find these things out, even if you don't know anything about the game?
So, that's a bit of a shame really.
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You can't even play a 40K game in one hour. An hour and a half maybe, if it ends fast.
Phil
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Well... you used to be able to. If one side was Tau. And the other side was dumb enough to deploy in line of sight. I mean it takes me and my friends about 4 hours to play 2k in both system in any case... probably because we have the TV on, and I'm the only one really focused on the game...
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Those Elves are crap.
Except the top one.....oh wait, the only one not by Gary Morley...
Off on a tangent, I also use non-mounted characters.
I think they're just cooler. 8-)
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Yeh, it was silly timing. I think that really more people might have turned up than they thought and then there was some confusion and so on....
Anyways, I am going to try and help them out next time so the thing is actually enjoyable and makes more sense.
In the meantime, my wife, my brother and I have decided to play the same exact armies in a little round robin tourney of our own, starting with my Dark Elves vs Wood Elves this morning. After all that fretting over getting the armies right, we are gonna use the things!
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I'd edit but that seems weird after so long.
The game against my wife was today. Was a goodly game. The first half of it I spent chasing shadows as my infantry units marched across the board only to get messed up by woods in their way whilst my cavalry units tried to make themselves pesky (which my CoK succeeded in - another great game for them, took out a unit of dryads, a unit of wardancers and a unit of glade guard - I am increasingly enjoying the new CoK).
The Alter Highborn whisked across the board taking out my chariot before being really unlucky in only getting off 3 shots from a HoDa and then managing to somehow get beat up and trampled down by a reaper crew (I felt sorry for her - the guy rolled tripple 1's twice!).
The second half went way better as my net drew them into the middle of the board where they ran out of room and had to face combat. My spearelves managed to take out the Wild Riders & Glade Guard on their side of the board whilst my Dreadlord, finally fed up of being stuck in my useless BG charged out and with the help of my Dark Riders ate up the Waywatchers.
She made the mistake of putting her Treeman too far onto the flank where all it could take out was a Reaper really and other than that I ignored it.
All in all, I was surprised to get a major victory and I think it was a combination of really bad luck on her part and a few bad positioning errors. Big blocks of Dark Elf infantry are proving intimidating to opponents though and are really hard to break down and that is wonderful. The magic resistance on my Black Guard and CoK means that the obvious magic targets are better protected. All in all the only thing I wish was different on my army would be to lose the staff of sorcery and use it to buy magic level 2 for my sorceress because magic for me is less than a joke.
Tomorrow I face my brother's Empire army and he has 2 level 2s and an Arch Lector... gulp!
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First game with DE coming up on friday
(I lost all painting impetus when I failed to glue together my Hydra and Balthasar gelt, plus was insanely busy)
1000 vs Tostigs empire.
Sorceress, Horse, level 2, darkstar cloak, 172
Master, Cold One, Heavy armour, shield, SDC, lance. 114
10 RXBmen 100
5 DR, musician, repeater crossbows, 117
5 harpies, 55
5 harpies, 55
5 shades, GW, 90
5 CoK, full command, war banner, 200.
RBT, 100
A smidge over 1000.
I'm tempted to run the sorceress on foot, with focus familiar and hide in a forest. I don't really want her in my fragile DR... I could keep her with darkstar cloack, and make points for it by dropping some harpies and making 1 bigger unit.
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no opinions on sorceress on horse with darkstar cloak (basically a free powerdice to cast the add powerdice spell) or on foot to hide in trees with focus familiar?
I have decided I want 2 X 5 harpies to hunt Tostig's artillery, so giving her the darkstar and focus familiar is not an option unless anyone thinks it is an outstanding combo... Really I just want the sorceress to get chillwind off to stop Tostigs shooting.
I'm currently painting my 10 harpies with a tank brush, the same colour as my beastmen...
I think I will get them done and maybe 1 character, so unfortunately I will have to fight with the RBT and 1 character unpainted :(
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I don't think it's worth having a wizard at all in a 1000-point army. Look how many points it takes up! Have some more shades or something instead.
p.s. don't forget he can cannon-snipe your captain if he's in the cold one unit. No 'look out sir' because there are only four normal models.
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Yeh I had thought of dropping her, but dont have any other painted models. I could use some unpainted shades, but I don't really want to.
does the champ not count as a normal model?
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I don't believe so for the purposes of Look Out Sir!.
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I only found out quite recently, but the champion definitely doesn't count for looking out sir. So maybe you shouldn't have a champion.
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Hmm, I might drop the champ then.
If my CoK get killed I probably can't win, as I won't be able to kill his big infantry units.
I just found 5 more models I could use as shades, but if I had 2 units of 5 with GW, and take out the sorceress, I still need to add in 80 points...
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I could use some unpainted shades, but I don't really want to.
You could paint the shades. :-D
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before 2 pm tomorrow?
I have already painted 10 harpies, 5 RXBmen and 5 COK since tuesday, and will finish the RBT and master i have painted today tomorrow morning, meaning I will only be playing with 1 unpainted model.
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That's better than I usually manage. :biggriin:
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Bring another captain instead of the wizard maybe? Have you got one on an ordinary horse?
I have already painted 10 harpies, 5 RXBmen and 5 COK since tuesday,
So where are the pictures?
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I don't know if I have any horses. I suppose I could wack him on a pistolier one! and he is a BSB... I'll have a think tomorrow I think. Although I think he is too expensive to take another unit of Shades.
I'll take pictures tomorrow in the sunlight. I'm not very happy with the COK armour, but the harpies look good, imo.
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You could just have one unit of shades, but of seven or so. I'm not sure units of five are ideal anyway.
A bsb on a horsie would be quite handy. I don't like cold ones for characters unless they will be spending all game in a cold one unit.
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I know for punch I should have a Hydra, but I hate the model.
...and rightly so, that thing is a bloody pig of a model, a disgrace to the rest of the GW Dark Elf range.
I went for the monster sized Hydra from Black tree design, a fantastic model and a steal at Ģ21 quid.
http://www.black-tree-design.com/btdcat.php?ctry=uk&lng=gb&rangenum=1&typenum=14&qty=0&sub=&shp=&tot=#top
I have to say I really like the new Cold One steeds in the DE range, very Velociraptor, very nice indeed.
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Master, Lance, Heavy armour, Shield, SDC, Cold one 114
Master, BSB, Lance, Heavy armour, Shield, SDC, Horse, 131
10 RXBmen 100
5 DR, musician, RXB, 117
5 Harpies 55
5 Harpies 55
7 Shades, GW, 126
5 CoK, musician, standard, standard of slaughter 199
RBT 100
997.
This any better? I could drop a shade or two to give my horse BSB a magic weapon, or maybe the enchanted shield? he seems quite vulnerable. I hope Tostig doesn't take a level 2 with RoP. He never really uses magic, but I mullered him with it last game so he might change his mind!
If the horse master joins the DR they wont be Fast cav will they?
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I think that looks good as it is.
If the horse master joins the DR they wont be Fast cav will they?
They can't lose the fast cavalry rule that way. The captain can't use the fast cavalry shooting rule, but that's it.
You could even have both captains join the cold ones.
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so he would move and reform with them? awesome. It's going to be weird moving 10 and 18 inches.
and just to check, my RXBs will be hitting things if they have moved and long range on 6s?
I'm not sure I want them both there. Screams a bit "overkill" and also a big sign saying "shoot me".
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so he would move and reform with them? awesome.
Yes. And it is!
and just to check, my RXBs will be hitting things if they have moved and long range on 6s?
Yes, I think so.
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The joys of repeater crossbows :|
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Don't you like them?
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Yes and no. I love rolling that many dice. I get a bit miffed on the often needing to roll 6s or 7s (I face a lot of skirmishers).
The armour piercing makes up for it a lot though,
I used to like them more when I didn't know you needed to -1 for repeating. Then they were really good :-P.
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I used to like them more when I didn't know you needed to -1 for repeating. Then they were really good
That's a convenient mistake!
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Yes it is annoying. DR often don't kill very much...
some general pictures...
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P050609_1442.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P050609_144201.jpg)
(I didnt paint these)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P050609_144202.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P050609_144301.jpg)
Anyway, I played Tostig today. I used the list above.
He had a level 1 wizard with DS, a mounted warrior priest with ring of volans, 2 units of nilla knights, Bronzino's galloper gun, a unit of halberds, some handgunners and 2 archer detachments.
We deployed with my CoK, RXBmen and harpies on the left flank, with DR hiding behind a house, RBT and harpies on my right flank, with the shades scouting in some trees on my right flank.
Tostig had one unit of knights on each flank, with everything else central.
He won first turn, and advanced the knights on both flanks. The galloper gun promptly misfired and could not shoot this turn or next. but Bronzino ran into the trees near by.
The harpies on both flanks advanced I moved my shades out of the trees backwards to shoot the knights, and I managed to kill 2. the RXBmen, RBT and DR shoot the galloper gun and manage to kill all 3 crew.
On Tostigs turn 2 the knights charged my shades, and I had miscalculated the minimum range for Stand and shoot, so could not. Bronzino charged my left harpies, but I fled.
Tostig cast portent of far and i dispelled it on 2 dice, but then he used the ring of volans from his warrior priest on my CoK and killed 4 with a Uranons thunderbolt! ouch. The knights fled.
fleeing knights (http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P050609_1515.jpg)
(I forgot to take any more pictures after this..)
The knights killed 1 shade and I killed one in return. I won with outnumber, but he passed his break test.
In my second turn my Knights rallied. I then charged my harpies in to reinforce my shades. The RXBmen and DR killed Bronzino with massed fire after his failed charge. The RBT killed 3 Handgunners.
The harpies and Shades killed a knight each, who then fled off the board, with both my units pursuing.
Tostig's 3rd turn was quite uneventful, with some minor manuevering, and an irrestible force portent of far helping the archers kill 1 Dark rider.
My third turn the harpies which fled from Bronzinos charge fled off the table. The RBT and DR fail to kill any of tyhe left flank knights, but the RBT kills 3 more handgunners, who flee off the table.
Tostig then charged my RXBmen with his knights and warriorpriest, who fled.
I then charged his Knights with my Cold one knight and master, and his archers with my right flank harpies. I move my DR to crossfire his knights if they flee, and the RBT kills 2 archers who flee. Stand and shoot kills one harpy, and both sides kill 2 each, with my harpies fleeing from outnumber. The master easily butchers the warriorpriest in a challenge, I win the combat by 3, and they get crossfired by the DR.
Tostig then conceded with only 2 archers, the halberds and sword detachment left, where as he had scored one unit of Harpies, 1/2 a unit of harpies, and 1/2 my CoK.
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Should have bought a Steam tank...
Well played Finlay. I'll let you know when I can make a rematch :::cheers:::
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Well I don't think it was well played!
you were quite unlucky on a few turns (but quite lucky with the ring of Volans!) and I also think not knowing about the DE capabilities hurt you.
As well as the fact that DE are a lot better than Empire, especially when you didn't load up on cannons/hellstorms/mortars.
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Yes, it was a bit of a one-sided match-up...
Nice report and pictures. Your shades are the old version of that manflayers regiment of renown. I used to have some, but sold them because they are very ugly.
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I hadn't really realised just how much better DE were than empire, and now I wouldn't really want to use them against Tostig, unless it was with a specifically tailored the force.
I quite like the old manflayers, actually (although they are painted crappily). I bought 10 off them from ebay, but I do have my 6 converted shades. I might use the manflayers as warrior unit fillers/to make the unit more interesting.
I think the harpy wings GW sell are ones for the new harpies, so I am not sure what to do about my 6 unwinged ones really.
I don't know what I think of Harpies. They are pretty useful, but not being able to rally is a shame, and they can't really kill anything in a fight.
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My harpies are great. They never kill anything and at the first sign of combat they flee never to be seen again.
And yet somehow every time I say I am going to use them, my opponent groans. :evil:
In fairness I think it is the excessively annoying march blocking I use them for.
I just try not to think of them as anything above that. I always thought before I started using them that they'd be excellent war machine killers but so far, they've never had the chance.
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I'd get some harpies, but there are no good miniatures for them! I can't think of a good substitution either.
Still, the only thing they can really do is lurk around catching fleeing units.
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I do quite like the ones I have, if a bit unipose.
It would be good if they got +1 to rally, seeing as their main job is for fleeing from charges... I guess they are useful to crossfire units as well, working in tandem with CoK.
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I use my harpies as shurikens. But they're not even good at that. :dry:
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I do quite like the ones I have, if a bit unipose.
It would be good if they got +1 to rally, seeing as their main job is for fleeing from charges... I guess they are useful to crossfire units as well, working in tandem with CoK.
Their low LD balances out with their very low cost and the wide range of uses they have. I use them all the time, only thing I don't really like about them is the models but they're okay-ish.
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Very low cost?
Aren't they 11 points a wack?
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yeh, but you can get a unit of 5- and you never want that many. so they are comparatively cheap.
They are basically flying humans with 2 attacks but LD 6.
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True I guess.
I'm more used to 12 point models coming in minimum units of 10...
:icon_cry:
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I'd love harpies in my empire army. 55 point unit of flying skirmishers with 10 attacks yes please.
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yea Harpies rock hard!
Take 2 units imho in a 2000+ pt list, they're great little units and cheap as chips.
Hell I'd take 4 in 2250pts.
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yea Harpies rock hard!
Take 2 units imho in a 2000+ pt list, they're great little units and cheap as chips.
Hell I'd take 4 in 2250pts.
Sure, but using which miniatures?
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I'd love harpies in my empire army. 55 point unit of flying skirmishers with 10 attacks yes please.
Indeed, that's the point. They're not that good or that cheap, but for flyers, they're certainly cheap enough, and with their attacks they can be a threat to fragile units like war machines and fast cav that are otherwise hard to reach. Plus, they make a wonderful (disposable) unit for redirecting and march blocking.
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yea Harpies rock hard!
Take 2 units imho in a 2000+ pt list, they're great little units and cheap as chips.
Hell I'd take 4 in 2250pts.
Sure, but using which miniatures?
buy a box of termagaunts, give them the arms from hormagaunts and stick harpy wings on them
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Does that look good though? Picture?
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I have seen plastic daemonette with wings, actually look quite good.
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You'd have to use the old metal demonettes. Because the new ones suck, and not just literally.
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I have 6 of the metal harpies (which are a little 'eh', but ok) and I just bought a box of the plastic deamonettes to make into more harpies cos I feel like a couple of units would work nicely. I'm looking at some alternative wings right now, just hope they fit.
I actually am using the spare deamonettes to make into Witch Elf characters. :-)
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I don't like composite metal/plastic things. They fall over all the time.
GW should have made plastic harpies instead of greatswords.
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You know.... I hadn't thought about that. They will be somewhat top-heavy... and magnetized bases won't work cos they are skirmished. Hmm.
Maybe I'll go back to the sculpted from scratch idea again... though I'm a bit scared about it... it would be a lot cheaper... they really should have made new harpies though in plastic, you're right. Though even more essential were dark riders. The more I look at my old ones in comparison to the newer models, the more chunky and badly done they look.
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Don't even mention the dark riders.
You'd think they'd be a priority, what with being a vital core unit. But no.
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I'm still baffled.
I mean, Empire knights need updating for sure, they are getting pretty old, but at least they fit in with the new ethos of being plastic so you can cut them a bit of slack. But not redoing dark riders which are not only core, but metal... and not only that, but let's face it, would sell in droves...
:?
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Are DE really that much better than Empire? :icon_frown:
I mean, I am like t12 who never really have tought about anything in an elven army as cheap, bar the eagle... :unsure:
But I guess cannon/mortar/hellstorms are a necessity against them DE. And archers I think...
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I mean, Empire knights need updating for sure, they are getting pretty old, but at least they fit in with the new ethos of being plastic so you can cut them a bit of slack. But not redoing dark riders which are not only core, but metal... and not only that, but let's face it, would sell in droves...
Especially since I remember people saying the dark elf warriors box was the best selling fantasy thing at one time. Lots of people like and buy dark elves. All of them need dark riders. And the existing models are dull, expensive and have the worst horses GW ever made (other than the '80s white plastic ones).
But instead, they make things like plastic empire archers, when there already are plastic empire archers.
Are DE really that much better than Empire?
Unless the Empire army really powergames like mad.
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I quite like the Dark Rider horses. :unsure:
Too expensive though so I made mine out of those wood elf ones.
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I quite like the Dark Rider horses.
No you don't!
No one possibly could...
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It's when I put my old dark riders next to my new (Wood Elf) dark riders that I have to hang my head in shame at the old models. I even tried out seeing how the WE horse heads fit onto the DE horses. They were about 50% too small. *sigh*
So I just went ahead and repainted my old dark riders as best I could and hope that the fact I use them almost always on opposite sides of the board won't make me think about it too much :-P.
As to Dark Elves against Empire, I don't think it's that outrageous a difference.
I think people often forget about balance when comparing. A balanced DE army taking on a balanced Empire army makes for a goodly game in the ones I've had. Sure, Dark Elves have a fair amount of nasty things but on the whole they are far too squishy to be 100% reliable.
My Black Guard are regularly eaten before getting to strike by chariots, artillery, stegs, steam tanks, handguns. You name it, they've been run over by it. And that ASF banner is just no use when a big template comes and lands on you.
Plus, I get the feeling sometimes that Empire players really just don't understand how much of a hateful thing the Rod of Power is to other armies. Especially if you haven't maxed out on magic to take it on. My brother and his wizardy consortium blazed a trail through every army he took on in our last league with that pesky thing.
I'm not 100% sure what qualifies as a balanced DE list but I'd like to think that I mostly take one. I don't usually manage to max out my characters or special slots if that's any redeeming feature... :-P
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If tostig had taken a unit of pistoliers to match some of my mobility, a mortar, a cannon, a hellstorm, and another unit of HG then he might have done better.
But yes, I think without tailoring, Empire are a lot worse than DE.
I actually quite like the old DR models. Just wish they had made them plastic for cheapness! I have one unit made from the WE box, and one unit of metal ones. I also have some old DE horsemen I will use, although the tininess of the horses is a bit farcical.
Not making DR is the most ridiculous thing GW did for Dark Elves. I thought they were going to make a secnd wave release of a new CoC and plastic DR... but no.
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Anyway, I played Tostig today. I used the list above.
He had a level 1 wizard with DS,
a mounted warrior priest with ring of volans,
2 units of nilla knights,
Bronzino's galloper gun,
a unit of halberds,
some handgunners and
2 archer detachments.
See I'm not sure I'd take that army list against DE. I've never seent he rules for the Galloping Gun. Is it any good?
Maybe I'd take out the BGGun and slip in another wizard (L2) with RoP to dominate the magic phase and hurt you there. Switch out the halberds for swordsmen, possibly lose the handgunners for crossbowmen, stick the WPriest with the infantry and give him a different magic item, maybe AoMI or such.
I think then maybe it would have been a harder fought battle with the list you took, which looks very reasonable to me, not too nasty in anything.
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the galloper gun isnt great. 24 inch max range, can march, comes with Bronzino who is basically a captain on horse.
I think when we next play he will take more small arms fire and template artillery. He also wasted points on the wizard when I took no magic (which is why a level 2 with RoP is better, because you can go offensive at 1k points)
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Yeh, some fire or similar magic could really eat your army up a bit. I'm getting by at the moment not using sorceresses in my armies by taking the Ring of Hotek but it's a bit of a cross-your-fingers thing and has often landed me in trouble. On the plus side, it also often blows their wizards up so I can't complain too much.
The only thing I'd be scared about with taking template artilley is that those dark riders or harpies can be over there on turn 2 which doesn't give you a lot of time to make a mark. Almost better taking more knights or something and making the artillery killers have to think again.
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I mean, Empire knights need updating for sure, they are getting pretty old, but at least they fit in with the new ethos of being plastic so you can cut them a bit of slack. But not redoing dark riders which are not only core, but metal... and not only that, but let's face it, would sell in droves...
Especially since I remember people saying the dark elf warriors box was the best selling fantasy thing at one time. Lots of people like and buy dark elves. All of them need dark riders. And the existing models are dull, expensive and have the worst horses GW ever made (other than the '80s white plastic ones).
But instead, they make things like plastic empire archers, when there already are plastic empire archers.
Are DE really that much better than Empire?
Unless the Empire army really powergames like mad.
Rufus...you seem to query the decision making process of the Hive Mind...they'll call you in for reassimiliation soon, no one dare question the Hive Mind...er I mean Game Workshop HQ.
You are 100% correct however.
As for the Hormagaunt/Termagaunt harpies- no idea just think they'd be cool. I think Daemonettes is the way there was a show case army from a few years back that had units of harpies using the 6th ed Daemonettes with wings on their backs.
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I remember those demonette harpies - they looked good, but I bet it was tricky to attach the wings properly. I'm just going to leave out the harpies until GW produce some new ones.
I don't really like them for my army theme anyway. I really want new dark riders. I don't want to make any more from glade riders!
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Yea the Glade Rider ones look good but they're not Dark Elf huh.
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Mine have quivers and everything. I couldn't be bothered trying to cut them off but the models look weird without cloaks to me.
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Mine have quivers and everything. I couldn't be bothered trying to cut them off but the models look weird without cloaks to me.
I fixed the quivers by cutting off the arrows and replacing them with a sword hilt, so they look like they have sheathed swords on their backs. It's a bit awkward to do though. And they still have a lot of irritating wood elf detail, like random giant gems and swirly bits.
I want proper plastic dark elf ones, preferably by the guy who made the new cold ones.
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Did you see the character they did on the dark steed? That was promising. If they did the horses like that...
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Uh, I didn't like that actually. Just as well it turned out to be an old model that they hadn't got around to releasing.
Still, the horse itself was alright.
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Yeh, it's more the horse I was thinking of, it was closer to the WE horses, just a tiny bit more evil... without having that weird snarling look of our old (current) horses.
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Supreme sorceress, level 4.
Pegasus, Black Staff, Pendant of Kaeleth. 400 points
Sorceress, level 2, dark steed, tome of furion, dispell scroll. 197
Master, BSB, Cold one. Lance, Heavy armour, SDC, shield, Standard of Slaughter 174
5 Dark riders, RXB, Musician, 117
5 Dark riders, RXB, Musician, 117
5 Dark riders, RXB, Musician, 117
5 Harpies, 55
5 harpies, 55
7 shades, 126 points
5 CoK, Musician, Standard bearer 159
5 CoK, Musician, Standard bearer 159
Hydra, 175
RBT 100
RBT 100
Help me shave 51 points from this, and criticise it.
I am thinking drop 1 unit of DR for a unit of RXBelfs, (because I have 10 DR and 10 RXB, cheaper!) which saves 17, then I could drop a shade or two, maybe the tome of furion?
I'm thinking of taking my DE to my store for a game tonight.
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Haven't really played over 2000pts yet with the new dark elves book due to the league I'm in still only being at 1600 but I suppose the tome could go. I'd find it hard meself because I do love it...
Seeing as you seem to be putting quite a lot into magic, maybe you'd almost be better off dropping the unit of dark riders, but not replacing them altogether. How about bumping up the other units to 6 each and slapping another shade in the shades or something...?
I hate trying to cut things out :-P.
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because then i wont have enough core units.
ToF I like because you can use that PD and one more to basically guarantee a succesful powerdice spell which will either drain your oppos dispell dice, or add at least the 2 dice you used back.
The easiest way would be to just drop one unit of harpies.
I could take out 2 shades, make the master not a BSB, and put the standard of slaughter onto one of the Cold one units standard bearers?
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Sorry, yeh, I forgot to look at C/S/R balance. Plus, as I said, so used to fighting under 2000.
Yeh, maybe losing half the harpies could work. In the end, everything is going to be useful I guess, so there has to be a useful thing that goes.
I've not taken a BSB in cold ones before so I'm not sure of the impact of dropping him, though I imagine it makes them quite a scary unit to be charged by.
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Ok after trolling through this thread I decieded you are all weird. Rufus Prudefire and associates, I don't get the hatered for DE nakedness...they're a hedonistic cult.....its like walking on a nudist beach and whinging about all the tits n arse. I bet you're all against porn too...insanity I tells you!!!!
I was hoping the thread would be useful (at least mildly) but its full of whinging about points/ugly models and Gav Thorpes patronage. I'm disappointed people....very disapointed.
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*Gav thrope fan! Get him!!*
It's not all useless is it?
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Of course not, he is an assiue. I charge you to seek him out, gather a bonebreaker squad and pay him a visit in the name of Stirland, Bies. :closed-eyes:
Nicolas, yeah, I dislike the nakedness. Why? Not because it is a nakedness per see, but because they are also intended to sell because they are nekkid chicks and to appeal to teens and young twenty lads because itīs nekkid women with sexy clothes...
That is pornography in a way and yes, I dislike that too...
Now, if GW made some really sexy looking male minis, carefully based on what women find attractive in such manners and made a porn army for women aswell, I would not grumble as much.
But as it is, the witch elves are part of the male oriented culture that dominates todays society. Now, I know some girls play the DE and likes them witches, thatīs fine. Cause they probably see it from a rather radical feminist perspective, and if made more along that line, maybe light clad but looking like they are vicious, cruel and murderous, avoiding stances that are only meant to look sexy as the most important stuff, they could be acceptable.
More like the Wood elf wardancers, for example.
But the gaming industry is one of the last bastions for hidden machoism and male dreams of how they want their women to be, rather than appreciating womens as they are.
And on a nudist beach ALL are naked, and there are all kinds of naked bodies, not just female ones all following the perfect sexy body model A look. Hence you canīt compare it to a nudist beach.
And yes, I shall burn you for heresy for slandering the mighty Sparkfire.
May I have some light, Master Sparkfire?
Anyway, by my divinely ordained right, given to me directly by almighty Sigmar himself, and in my authority as acting Warrior priest and heretic slayer extraordinare I hereby burn you for... well, heresy anyway!
::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic::
::heretic:: Nicolas ::heretic::
::heretic:: Ironfist ::heretic::
::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic::
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Cause they probably see it from a rather radical feminist perspective
so IT IS a matter of perspective ?
sex sell yes, and the minis figures if transfered onto a real woman would have boobs the size of soccer balls( i like that image). I don't think that DE are marketed towards teens (they ussally go for the beardiest army out at the time...ussally chaos) or tweenty something age groups. I'm almost 40 and I love boobs and naked chicks and frankly I'm suspicious of guys that don't :icon_eek:
No it wasn't all rubbish (the thread) but the amount of garbage strewn through it makes it a chore to get through.
Now lets tackle Gav.....I hated Gav because he origanally wreaked the DE's after toumous pritchen told him not too. That said he went to the heretical Druchii net and actually listened to DE players concerns and second time around turned out a great army book....don't you wish that GW would do that for empire.....futher to this he set up mechanical hamster on which he bravely put himself on trial and anwsered questions about why he did the things he did and why some things were excluded much to the wrath of the DE community (city guard gone...sea guard in HE book....3 ranks for HE 2 for DE...ect add to this his book malekith kicks arse (imo)....I can't help but admire the guy for his courage. (even though he disagrees with me about female wizards...which he also anwsered on a DE forum)....Gavs ok and I have 4 foot of sharpened steel for the first witch hunter who wants to disagree
As for your cleansing flames...100 naked witchelves will beat them out with their oversized breasts before I even get singed :icon_twisted:
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Ok after trolling through this thread I decieded you are all weird. Rufus Prudefire and associates, I don't get the hatered for DE nakedness...they're a hedonistic cult.....its like walking on a nudist beach and whinging about all the tits n arse. I bet you're all against porn too...insanity I tells you!!!!
I was hoping the thread would be useful (at least mildly) but its full of whinging about points/ugly models and Gav Thorpes patronage. I'm disappointed people....very disapointed.
Porn is great.
Real tits are great.
Tiny metal tits which would be physically impossible to walk with are a freaking joke, used simply to appeal to the lowest common geek denominator of GW players.
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Ok after trolling through this thread I decieded you are all weird. Rufus Prudefire and associates, I don't get the hatered for DE nakedness...they're a hedonistic cult.....its like walking on a nudist beach and whinging about all the tits n arse. I bet you're all against porn too...insanity I tells you!!!!
I was hoping the thread would be useful (at least mildly) but its full of whinging about points/ugly models and Gav Thorpes patronage. I'm disappointed people....very disapointed.
Porn is great. (i agree)
Real tits are great. (i agree, so are fake tits, big tits, little tits...tits with tats are out though...too tarty)
Tiny metal tits which would be physically impossible to walk with are a freaking joke, used simply to appeal to the lowest common geek denominator of GW players.
(I disagree...if they made em to scale you'd never see em)
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I am all for miniature nudity as long as it's well sculpted. All female GW models look like transvestites in all their high-heel plastic-tit laden stupidity. I mean look at the witch elves. LOOK AT THEIR FACES.
The only exception are the old metal demonettes.
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Don't the Wood Elves have some fairly naked male minis that would probably be considered appealing to lady-folk?
Not to mention the beastmen who are even more naked and even more drool-worthy...
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Actually, the nekkid wardancers are female.
Wood Elf society is very equal in that regard (though there are no nude male models all the same).
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In response to the "Are DElves overpowered?" question, my answer is "Not really".
I didn't know what I was facing really. By in any case, I run a soft list. Next time I'll probably tune it a bit differently. In any case, Finlay's not-overpowered list stomped on my underpowered Empire list.
As we were packing up there was a brief discussion about what I could have taken instead, which pretty much ended with "But then I could have taken a pair of steamtanks and a war altar. But then again, let's not." I wouldn't enjoy playing competitively against Finlay, so that my list wasn't incredibly competitive doesn't bother me.
As for small pewter titties - meh. They're stupid.
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Actually, the nekkid wardancers are female.
Wood Elf society is very equal in that regard (though there are no nude male models all the same).
I'm going to have to go and look at them more closely....
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Trust me, I have 20 right here...
Definitely boobs, with no coverings, on a few of them. No "mini-thems" though (on the male models).
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In response to the "Are DElves overpowered?" question, my answer is "Not really".
I didn't know what I was facing really. By in any case, I run a soft list. Next time I'll probably tune it a bit differently. In any case, Finlay's not-overpowered list stomped on my underpowered Empire list.
As we were packing up there was a brief discussion about what I could have taken instead, which pretty much ended with "But then I could have taken a pair of steamtanks and a war altar. But then again, let's not." I wouldn't enjoy playing competitively against Finlay, so that my list wasn't incredibly competitive doesn't bother me.
As for small pewter titties - meh. They're stupid.
but you could have used a list without stanks and waltar that was still more tailored.
More knights, more artillery and more small arms fire!
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Oh, I donīt mind boobs. Itīs just that I am tired of the way the male part of the society loves expression of female "sexuality" that the youngs girls then try hard to match and few if anyone really can without plastic surgery.
But you are of course okay with that, Nicolas. And that you expect your daughters to adhere to your tastes for the rest of malekind to drool.
Have you not even considered how the opposite sex might feel about things? Guess not cause you seem so satisfied with being a machoman and shout "Tits and ass! Roxor!!!"
So it is a matter of perspective yes, the perspective of wether you think the structures of society promoting the male image as the right one and screw what the women think of it. I guess you like that the men still hold power because theyīre chums who loves to scream titsīn ass and want womens to be easy and accesible all the time, so they can shout whore after them and tell their mates about them afterwards.
But if their personal mate would so much look at other men with her friends, no, that canīt be tolerated! :dry:
Itīs all part of the same superstructure. The Witch elves are GW:s way of hanging on mens interest of porn and dreams of easy women that can be disgarded as dollies afterward.
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Oh, I donīt mind boobs. Itīs just that I am tired of the way the male part of the society loves expression of female "sexuality" that the youngs girls then try hard to match and few if anyone really can without plastic surgery.
But you are of course okay with that, Nicolas. And that you expect your daughters to adhere to your tastes for the rest of malekind to drool.
Have you not even considered how the opposite sex might feel about things? Guess not cause you seem so satisfied with being a machoman and shout "Tits and ass! Roxor!!!"
So it is a matter of perspective yes, the perspective of wether you think the structures of society promoting the male image as the right one and screw what the women think of it. I guess you like that the men still hold power because theyīre chums who loves to scream titsīn ass and want womens to be easy and accesible all the time, so they can shout whore after them and tell their mates about them afterwards.
But if their personal mate would so much look at other men with her friends, no, that canīt be tolerated! :dry:
Itīs all part of the same superstructure. The Witch elves are GW:s way of hanging on mens interest of porn and dreams of easy women that can be disgarded as dollies afterward.
Your way off. Society does sexualise women, women use sex to gain power and position (Paris Hilton, Madonna, Elle McPherson, Pam Anderson, Monika Lewinski ect). I don't think women are less empowered today than they were 20 years ago, maybe men are if they look at a women and only see tit n arse, esp in business. I think it rediculous to suggest that even some men play DE's because they are interested in oversized metal tits...seriously if you beleive that your more wacked than I am.
Don't judge me for not making your way out, cloak n dagger, GW pervert sales conection. :x
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Nicolas, no need to get angry.
Why must women use their sexuality to gain power? Cause if they just try to relly on intellectual skills and such, they have it harder than a man using the same tools. Is it right that women must use sex to boost their chances in society?
Seriously though, I did push the envelope a bit, Grutch style, since I do belive there are more than use nice sculpting behind the look of the minis. Yes, there are some business ideas there to cash in on sex. Some people will be affected by that.
However, I would not be able to look my wife and daughters into the eyes if I started to collect mini elven S&M stripper babes.
Anyway, I prefer my warrior women dressed in well fitting clothes and armour that are functional and shaped after the demands of war, not what looks sexy.
THAT is sexy. A woman dressed for war in an efficient manner, with weapons she clearly know how to use in an efficient way.
That is love! :icon_mrgreen:
As for being more wacky than you Nicolas, if we had a vote, I would win the wackiest title before you could say "Arkham asylum!"
But you should not worry about GW:s cloak and dagger selling metods! That is why I am here for you all in my role as Warrior priest, cleansing your souls and saving your spirits in the name of Sigmar! :engel:
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Don't feed the troll Mathi
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But Nicolas is no troll...
We just got crossed with each other but have now settled it over PM. But I maintain I am wackier than him! :icon_razz:
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Anyway, I prefer my warrior women dressed in well fitting clothes and armour that are functional and shaped after the demands of war, not what looks sexy.
Sorry Mathie (and Finlay) I'm with Nicholas ...................
Xena, Wonderwoman, or a unit of Pagans as in "Krod Mandoon" ................
:engel:
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This is what we need ....................
Women in Warhammer
Though not always at the forefront of the action, nevertheless women have always been deeply involved in the Warhammer World, and in order to add something special to female models in your army you may use the following special items.
Sword of Squawking: Magic Weapon - 20pts
This weapon wielded by a female warrior emits a loud screeching sound as it engages with a male enemy. The enemy model becomes disorientated by the noise and suffers 1WS for the duration of the combat or until the female warrior is killed.
This weapon has no effect when used against another female.
Boots of Blanhik: Talisman - 30pts
A female character wearing these boots adds +1LD to her base stats for all purposes. These boots were beautifully crafted by the master cobbler to the Colleges of Magic, Namolo, and originally made for the wife of a powerful mage. After his wifes death the mage occasionally allows their use by a female warrior who attracts his attention. Any woman wearing these boots immediately emanates a powerful presence and rises in stature amongst her fellow warriors.
After the Emperors Equality Decree in the year 2519, the Imperial School of Engineers reluctantly allowed some female novices to join their ranks. From within this innovative programme have come some interesting pieces of equipment especially designed for the female warrior.
Mace of Emasculation: Enchanted Item - 20pts
This is a mundane item that is used as an additional Hand Weapon. It is a special canister that a lady engineer devised after being inspired whilst using her perfume bottle one morning.
This canister allows the wielder to strike first, 'spraying' a mist of something obnoxious into the faces of all models in base-to-base contact in combat. This stuns the opponents and effectively gives the wielder the strikes first ability with any other attacks they may have with their other hand weapon.
It is not a magic weapon, and therefore can be combined with a magic weapon.
Front Loading Breastplate: Mundane Armour Item. Lord +6pts, Heroine 4pts
Intrinsically just part of a standard heavy armour suit it has a special trigger mechanism, which can be activated in close combat. The breastplate will then spring open creating a stunned effect on the enemy, allowing the wearer to strike first under all circumstances.
In their bemused state enemy models will also strike back, if they have survived, at 1WS.
However, as the maiden is in a vulnerable state, any enemy hits will be resolved at 1AS for the female wearer.
Psychology.
Armies that field units of all female warriors will be subject to a new psychology test at the start of a battle, called the Psychotic Monthly Trial.
The player will roll a D6 and on a roll of a 1, the unit will become subject to frenzy.
{Regular gamers need to take note of this roll as it will apply for all battles involving the unit for the next 5 days, so in a tournament situation where each round of battle is assumed to take place on subsequent days, a referee will have to be present for the tests D6 roll, to record the result.}
However due to the extraordinary effects of this temporary psychotic trance, not only do the unit become frenzied, but they also become unbreakable, and will not lose their frenzy even if defeated in combat.
Magic Lore.
Still under debate is a potential new spell for female wizards called "The Aura of Nakedness", which as I understand it, can be cast on themselves to affect enemy units within 12".
However it appears it will be available to all female magic casters, and as some female wizards can be of an unattractive nature it seems that the user will be able to also cast the spell on friendly units in combat within 12.
The enemy will perceive that either the wizard or the friendly unit are naked.
If it is the wizard then the enemy unit will be unable to move that turn.
If it is cast on a friendly unit then their enemy will wish to do the exact opposite, and get away as fast as possible. The unit will have to take an immediate panic test at 1Ld.
There also seems to be a raging debate amongst the designers as to which lore this spell should be attached to.
Lore of Life has a strong case as the spell is deemed au naturel.
However some have argued for Beasts as it will bring out the beast in units, but probably the most votes are for Heavens as appropriately modelled female minis will be heavenly.
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It seems a bit odd to me to argue this.
I don't think that GW are purposely going out of their way to produce female minis that are purely for pleasuring young men. If that were so, wouldn't the Bretonninan damsels be a little bit more raggedy and a little less homely?
Witch Elves and DE sorceresses have always been this way (crazed perverted scantily clad killing machines).
And a glance around other company's minis shows you that if anything, GW tone things down quite a lot and are on the whole more modest.
And this is nothing new either, the whole appealing to the sexual side of it, just as having huge hulking barbarians is not. Fantasy women have always been this way like fantasy men. Watch Conan and you pretty much have the stereotypes that have been going on for years. Why should GW try and ignore that when really, that's the kind of imagery fantasy has always been about.
It's not about just trying to get a cheap thrill off of women. One could sit here and complain about fantasy men and how they always have rippling muscles and huge rediculous swords (and whilst Empire doesn't cater to that fantasy, WoC most certainly does), but as it's not such a sensitive subject for some people, I haven't heard it come up.
There was no big debate when that fellow posted his Scottish army in the B&P with the fellow lifting his kilt as I remember.
Personally, I'd just say it's a case of 'if it bothers one that much, don't buy the GW models, find an alternative or greenstuff them over'. I don't know that it's as much a big thing as it's being portrayed.
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'if it bothers one that much, don't buy the GW models, find an alternative or greenstuff them over'
which is what I do. my only issue is that Nicholas brought that more or less irellevant stuff into here from the female mage thread.
And I wasn't lambasting GW in particular. That ridiculous naked girl bathing which people convert and use in thecauldron of blood is a joke.
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I know the one you mean. And yeh, that's almost too much really.
(though very fluffy :-P)
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'if it bothers one that much, don't buy the GW models, find an alternative or greenstuff them over' (or play empire which has no female models :))
which is what I do. my only issue is that Nicholas brought that more or less irellevant stuff into here from the female mage thread. (...thats a weird thread too :) ....here I stressed that I was hoping to find more substance and was unhappy with all the moaning about nakedness, undercosting and ...well irralavent stuff)
And I wasn't lambasting GW in particular. That ridiculous naked girl bathing which people convert and use in thecauldron of blood is a joke. (actually she isn't naked, she is a vampire model that is clothed...thinly clothed but she isn't naked unless sanded and painted to be so....I find the conversion both fluffy and rather cool.... again I say if you have issues with metal nudity you have serious mental health problems :icon_rolleyes: )But Nicolas is no troll...
We just got crossed with each other but have now settled it over PM. But I maintain I am wackier than him! :icon_razz:
It seems sometimes I post a comment that seems more heated than it was intended...esp when I'm in disagreement with the author...shadow and I had the same issue...we're over it too......see I can be nice :)
Siberius I totally agree.
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Why must women use their sexuality to gain power?
Because in a bout I will kick their asses no matter if you put in a three hundred pound female spear thrower or a model.
Mathi, once again you put way too much thought into this game.
If anyone is bothered by nudity on miniatures beware of the internet, news magazines, and adds on pillars.
This is getting ridiculous at best. :icon_confused:
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Well, I do put too much into the game from time to time, but that is what makes it so fun... :biggriin:
And I think you wife would beat you handsdown if she had that spearthrower, Shadowlord. :closed-eyes:
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I don't care for nudity in this game, yet I can't really do anything about it, and having a go at people for fielding official models would be stupid.
So meh, don't like it, but who likes everything in this world? Just have to live with it.
I need to paint my empire... my new warmachine army, and then I shall paint my dark elves.
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I change my earlier statement to: the WE sorceress and the old demonettes are the only exceptions.
Anyway, this is stupid. Who the hell cares about tiny pewter boobs? Why is this even being discussed?
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Some people are prudes. And some people are prudes with internet connection.
That and you'll always find people, anywhere, willing to argue over anything.
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I know a guy who didn't like that the current Daemonettes only have 1 boob so green stuffed a 2nd boob on 50 of them. He has naked pictures of women in his painting den because he needs "to get the shadow" right.
Usually all I see is him painting female characters.
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He has naked pictures of women in his painting den because he needs "to get the shadow" right.
The chicks must be all over him.
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Anyway, this is stupid. Who the hell cares about tiny pewter boobs? Why is this even being discussed?
Simple, one or two of the mods and their handful of forum buddies can't keep up with their own GW hating posts (too many replies) so they need to stir up something else:
GW is a sexistic bastard company - out to drag women down into the trash marshes.
They are the only company doing this as well you know, no other company does it.
:engel:
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I change my earlier statement to: the WE sorceress and the old demonettes are the only exceptions.
Anyway, this is stupid. Who the hell cares about tiny pewter boobs? Why is this even being discussed?
because nicholas decided that his opinions which he made perfectly clear in the female mage thread really needed to be retirerated in this thread.
Then he decided to call me mental because I don't like naked transvestite looking models.
And SL, you need to read what I said again, I clearly said it was not just GW!
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GW is a sexistic bastard company - out to drag women down into the trash marshes.
That explains why you are such a fanboy... :biggriin:
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Yeah, lets get back to Dark elves!
I mean real Dark elves with spiky armour and vicious mounts! :icon_razz:
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And SL, you need to read what I said again, I clearly said it was not just GW!
Why do you think I addressed you?
I got surprised by Mathi's post, which I replied to.
Boobs a problem with minis? Huh?
Besides we know that the goth-leather is the problem with DE, not the nudity.
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Nah... I like leather! :icon_razz:
And shiny armour. :icon_mrgreen:
And cold steel! :icon_wink:
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Nah... I like leather! :icon_razz:
And shiny armour. :icon_mrgreen:
And cold steel! :icon_wink:
If this isn't an invitation for SL to pay a personal visit to Mathi, I don't know what is.. :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin:
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So are Executioners useless, are they just an overpriced-not-so-good-hand-me-down-Blackguard or do they offer something somehow in one role or another?
Every time I take them (I have to get marks for persevearance) they get steamrollered by something (in fairness, it is usually after failing their Ld 9 fear test after I've set them up for a wonderful ASF charge on Chaos Knights or a Stegadon... oh how I cry).
(good subject change?)
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I think if you are using the CoB they are pretty good.
Stubborn, and can give them the +1 attack so more chance for KB.
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Colour schemes...I'm thinking black and orange..highlighted up to yellow..perhaps with some red thrown in too. I don't want to go purple if I can get another interesting colour combo...anyone done something different with their DE's? Also what general do you use...I'm thinking Sorceress or Hag????
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I went dark blue with red weapons and trim on the armour. I can't say it looks majorly original, but it's at least not the generic GW scheme.
I vary my general up too much to say. Usually it's a Master or Sorceress though and I give my hag a BSB.
I think if you are using the CoB they are pretty good.
Stubborn, and can give them the +1 attack so more chance for KB.
You don't feel like they just get mown down too easy though? Because if you are giving them the +1 attack, I guess you are relying on the 5+ save.
I've generally used them with the CoB but even that doesn't seem to save them. I really want them to work, as they are one of my fav units... I just find it hard to take them over Black Guard or Spears if there is a choice.
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So are Executioners useless, are they just an overpriced-not-so-good-hand-me-down-Blackguard or do they offer something somehow in one role or another?
Useless and overpriced? Hardly. If anything, the BG are underpriced.
Okay, I use BG over Exec's too, so I guess I shouldn't scream too loudly. :engel:
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yeh, you are relying on them killing things instead of their save.
Nicholas, my DE are Green with bronze/gold armour.
Your scheme sounds good though, would love to see a test mini.
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Useless and overpriced? Hardly. If anything, the BG are underpriced.
Okay, I use BG over Exec's too, so I guess I shouldn't scream too loudly. :engel:
Sorry, I probably should have said in comparison to the other DE choices.
I tend to find myself almost always using the ward save from the cauldron to try and make up for the puny armour values our foot troops have. Mayhaps I should try out a list where I take cold ones and use the additional attacks instead... it could be fun...
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dude, 2 units of 6 cold ones, 1 with ring, 1 with dreadlance, 1 with warbanner and the other with damn theres a DE banner I like.
Then add a Lord with Crimson, regen and uber ward on Cold One.
A unit of 13 BG with ASF banner and champ
Then add a BSB with +1 attack banner
Cast +1 attack by couldron on the BG unit.
you then have guys with 4 attacks ws 5 str4 re-roll hits. while you have 2 nice cav units running into the enemy as well.
Sprinkly Dark Riders and add Bolt throwers liberally.
2 lv2s round the characters.
TRY IT!
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You know, I might just be able to scrape together enough knights for that, sounds kinda brutal. :-P
Is it the banner of +1 attack on the charge?
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I think so (moving house so the DE book is packed).
I use it as my list, with 3 bolt throwers and 4 dark riders, 3x5 harpies and 2 chariots
the BG is something a mate uses (used against me actually)
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That is kinda my list. Except I go more magic, and have no BG.
the other banner you like is standard of slaughter. +d3 combat res for 10 points more than the warbanner.
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I just had the most ridiculous game of Warhammer.
It was 1800pts of Wood Elves and Dark Elves vs the same of Lizards and Chaos.
Odd fluffwise I know but hey, there were marriages at stake!
Lists were basically:
Sorceress L2 on horse
5 Dark Riders
10 Crossbowmen
18 Spearelves
5 Harpies
C.O Chariot
2 x Reapers
and
Spellsinger L2
Branchwraith
10 Dryads
10 Dryads
10 Glade Guard
6 Wild Riders
8 Wardancers
against
Stegadon E.o.t.G with Priest L2
15 Saurus
10 Saurus
3 Terradons
and
Chaos Hero on Chariot
War Shrine
7 Chaos Knights
2 x 10 Marauders
I think that's it, it's easier to remember our own stuff.
Anyways, the gist is that we outnumber them pretty decently but have very little with any punch to take down the large units if it gets to combat.
They get first turn and get off comet right smack in our lines. Then, after wasting our dispel dice trying to get rid of it, the priest uses an item that makes you take toughness tests until you pass or one or die. My sorceress decides to die. There goes my general. Our turn begins and the comet goes off, killing the W.E. spellsinger (general). So before we even begin the game, our two main characters are frazzled.
I wondered about conceding, because it really felt like we didn't have the combat abilities to take on the big guys, but I let it go a while.
We did throw caution to the wind though and decided to go down fighting so I threw my Chariot into the Chaos Knights, expecting to get eaten up. I killed all 7 in the first round of combat!! This in turn panicked the Chaos General in his chariot who then ran sideways through one of our units and died. That in turn panicked the Stegadon who was inches away from being similarly crossfired. It was a stunning turn in fortunes.
After some more frankly silly things happening; my reapers managing to consistently roll 1s throughout against the Steg who I needed a 2 to hit; dispelling another comet on the 12 we needed on two dice etc... Chaos and lizzies conceded. Somehow we had managed to gain dominance and people were frazzled already.
With a couple more turns (we ended on turn 3 or 4) the Stegadon may still have evened the game somewhat as it seemed impervious to my reapers and was still pumping out nasty magics but I think with our army having the ability to fade into the woods or dance behind terrain, it seemed like a fruitless gesture.
It was insane though. We so should of lost.
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Sounds pretty awesome.
You muyst have forgotten some lixard stuff though because I played my friend at 2250 and he had an EotG, another skink shaman, a character on Trex, 2 units of saurus, some cold one cavalry, some kroxigors, 2 units of skins and 2 salamandars.
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This was only 900pts of Lizzies though, 900 for each race, 1800 on each side.
I may still have forgotten something though. I do know the Steg cost him around 400 and something.
It was awesome in some ways, highly depressing in others. Biggest payday for the Cold One chariot ever though!!
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Ah my bad, silly Finlay!
BTW, I have been wondering, if you give your assassin the Killing Blow poison, can you opt to not take the 6s to hit as autowounds due to your standard posion and try and roll for the KB?
If not I don't think I really want the KB poison.
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I've been wondering for a while if the special poison upgrades do away with the normal poison rule or not... with some of them it'd be good, but for that one, definitely bad.
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They do. Hence why you take an additional hand weapon, Manbane, Rune of Khaine, and Touch of Death.
Potential 7 attacks that will shred anything short of Phoenix Guard or similar, and then only because of the ASF and 4+ ward.
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Is there a faq which says the poisons do away with regular poison?
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In the book IIRC. I'll check.
Yep, same page the "toxins" are on. Right in the middle of the paragraph under the heading.
"... one type of toxin (replacing it's Poisoned Attacks)..."
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Potential 7 attacks that will shred anything short of Phoenix Guard or similar, and then only because of the ASF and 4+ ward.
What does ASF help them? The assassin has it too, and a very high I if I remember correctly.
EDIT spelling mistakes
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The ward save is the only thing saving them.
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Phoenix Guard have a 4+ ward? Yikes.
I really need to read the High Elf army book.
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Not thinking about the huge I. So yes, pretty much the 4+ ward.
I suppose Wardancers using the 4+ ward dance would do okay too, as would Chosen with the right EotG roll.
Not many things though.
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Phoenix Guard have a 4+ ward? Yikes.
I really need to read the High Elf army book.
So now you get 4+ward that holds units in place and you get flanked by sword masters who are now ussally fielded in units of 5 for this very purpose(apparently they are very nasty), if your opponent is being kind its only units of white lions flanking you :)
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Well, it looks like for a local league I'll be taking Dark Elves. This is going to be fun. :evil:
First matchup is Bretonnians, who I've never faced.
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Well, it looks like for a local league I'll be taking Dark Elves. This is going to be fun. :evil:
First matchup is Bretonnians, who I've never faced.
Don't get charged.
That's all I can say. :-P
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I've already stalked my opponent to find out how he plays.
Seemingly like a stereotypical bretonnian player.
POINT AND CLICK!
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I've already stalked my opponent to find out how he plays.
Seemingly like a stereotypical bretonnian player.
POINT AND CLICK!
what else were you expecting? :icon_wink:
post a list bro!
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My list will be a standard affair of xbowmen, dark riders, black guard, hydra and reapers.
I'm the one setting up terrain and we're supposed to be competitive about it (idiotic in my opinion, but by god if they're gonna do stupid things like that, I'll show them why they shouldn't).
So each side will get a wall along the deployments edge. What's that Brets? No charge bonuses and we strike in initiative order? (apart from Pegs, but they can be dealt with)
I think I might put a few buildings down in each deployment zone as well. :x
I wouldn't go so far if the guy I was playing wasn't a well known cheater. I suspect my other games will be pretty happy encounters :engel:
I think I may tell the league organisers about this idea with the walls against Bret players. Might make him rethink this idiocy before the league starts.
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Wow, I never thought a serious case of hemos would be beaten in pain level.
But your way of gaming sure does.
What a waste of precious free time.
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Wow, I never thought a serious case of hemos would be beaten in pain level.
But your way of gaming sure does.
What a waste of precious free time.
I know. I'm seriously debating either asking him if we can just let him draw both our games together (I hate playing cheaters), and playing the rest of the games I know I'll enjoy because the other guys aren't WAACers.
That and I'm going to be beating the organiser with a logic stick.
I mean seriously, certain rules only work if everyone is a nice decent chap. I know of at least 2 in this league who, when it's their turn to set up ALL TERRAIN, place a fortress on both sides for their gunline/whatever suits whatever their army is.
Luckily one is in the other group. The other is the Brets.. :roll:
This is my first league with this group, so I'm being forced to play people I rarely played before due to issues like this.
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Oh... that makes for some onesided battles. I like setting up terrain in a nice way, and must confess that I get a bit disturbed about the illogical locations of some terrain pieces when you slump them out. Ugly...
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As I said up north, I want the Warmachine rules for terrain.
Terrain setup is not the competitive part of the game, it should be there to make a nice looking battlefield.
In our old league at the store the rules were better. We both set up terrain, but home play chose sides and went second. Worked well (but I still disliked competitive terrain stacking).
These rules we're having now (Home player sets up -all- terrain, then other play chooses sides), I disagree with. The most blatant example of abuse here is what I posted already.
Walls on both sides means my gunline gets to not fear Brets charging, plus they need to spend a turn or two just to get out of their deployment zone. It's ridiculous.
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An update on that terrain issue, it turns out the league organiser got wind of my disparaging remarks about terrain, and fixed the issue (at least partially).
Also, I used my Dark Elves for the first time in a year, and played Warhammer for the first time in 4-5 months (the match against daemons didn't count).
I learnt an important thing. It doesn't matter what book you use, how horrible your list is, if you roll 1's and 2's for absolutely everything, you will lose. :biggriin:
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I learnt an important thing. It doesn't matter what book you use, how horrible your list is, if you roll 1's and 2's for absolutely everything, you will lose. :biggriin:
Unless it's gonna be leadership tests. :-)
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It didn't help when it was 10 repeater crossbowmen and a sorceress versus 4 dragon princes. But it was funny that they kept passing (but doing nothing), until all were killed. took 3 complete turns (so 6 rounds of combat).
My hydra ran off the battlefield after doing nothing :icon_mrgreen: Silly shades ran through it when they fled a charge from 20 white lions. Shades rallied, hydra ran then didn't rally. :icon_biggrin:
I played a poor game, and my dice utterly hated me and wanted to stick shivs into my back, so all in all, I enjoyed it. :icon_mrgreen:
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Please be that crap on the 21st. :wink:
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Please be that crap on the 21st. :wink:
I just had my first league game with Dark Elves, Mister Mereightick.
I lost technically (a few men died, but no half units or wounded characters) 0 points, he lost 2000.
Lets see if my luck holds out for Tuesday, yes?
The guy was extremely unlucky, and I was -very- lucky. I also set terrain, but I avoided what someone actually suggested to me (but I'd said here, and would be unfair), fighting in a village, so I could just fill each building with shades and be unreachable.
I put one building down, and 3 forests spread out as much as I could. My level 4 and level 2 did bugger all, my Reaper Bolt throwers (two of them) killed most of a unit of grail knights (bar 2, out of 9) in one turn of shooting. With Multishot. The guy couldn't pass a save, and I felt so bad about the whole affair. The thing is, I didn't realise they were the grail knights. I thought those were the ones behind that unit. :Ohmy:
MVP go to the Shades that killed his last skirmishing peasant archer in revenge for shooting down a single shade from their unit needing a 7 to hit (The last guy got wounded by 8 shots). :engel:
My Black Guard with the Armour Piercing Banner did a sterling job versus a Knight block with two Heroes.
In the fifth turn, with time running out and him only having two heroes (one on 1 wound) versus 16 blackguard and my BSB, his general in forest with 1 wound, 6 knights of the realm rear charged by angry Dark Riders, and a Fay Enchantress hiding in a forest, he conceded.
Edit: Real MVP go to His-and-My-Dice. Mine for being so awesome I thought someone had swapped them with loaded dice, his for being made out of 1s and 2s.
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upsetting that a level 4 and 2 did not much, as that is what I plan to run in my 2k list.
Maybe I need 2 level 2s
Also sounds like he had a bit of a point and click army...
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To be fair, so did I. Mine was mostly shooting, it wasn't "Every unit shoots", but over half did, and if I multishot with absolutely everything, I'd be pumping out 80 strength 3 armour piercing shots, and 12 strength 4 armour piercing shots.
The guy had 5 dispel dice and 3/4 dispel scrolls (forgot which).
My list was not a very nice one as I had no idea what to do against Bretonnians.
Something like 2 Reapers, 10 xbowmen, 10 xbowmen, assassin, level 4, level 2, BSB, 19 blackguard with ASF, 5 Dark riders, 6 harpies, 10 shades, 10 shades.
He had something like, bsb, hero, lord, wizard, wizard, 9 grail knights or more, 12 knights errant, 9 questing, 9 questing, 9 ... realm knights? 10 skirmishing peasant bowmen.
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http://privateerpress.com/files/products/mage-hunter-strike-force.png (http://privateerpress.com/files/products/mage-hunter-strike-force.png)
wouldnīt those make fantastic shades?
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The current shades and Mengils Manhide Flayers are awesome enough for me.
The new retribution models for warmachine are swish though.
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bought the book today and plan on checking it all out in the next day or so.
My mates and I are thinking about having a 500pt force painted each month so we have a full army for the next tourney in April. SHould be fun as my key opponent is planning on going HE.
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http://privateerpress.com/files/products/mage-hunter-strike-force.png (http://privateerpress.com/files/products/mage-hunter-strike-force.png)
wouldnīt those make fantastic shades?
Gosh those are more lovely than the old Confrontation models! :icon_smile:
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those are super nice! might buy some
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Oh dear. People liking Warmachine models, where will it end?
Hopefully these two units might put you lot off.
Elves with Powerfists:
http://privateerpress.com/files/products/battlemages.png
Look at those thigh plates!
http://privateerpress.com/files/products/dawnguard-sentinel-officer-and-standard-bearer.png
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hey..
so I'm thinking of DE for the tourney next year. I'm currently contemplating this unit...
Crone Hellebron (so 7-9 WS7 str10 attacks).
In a unit with ASF (so black guard) with a BSB with Hydra banner and a hag with the couldron giving them +1 attack.
So the Crone would have 9-11 attacks with WS7 and Str10 ASF... Bloodthirster eat your heart out.
The only issue I see currently is that is 3/4 characters so I'd need a scroll caddy and 3DD, 2DS probably isn't enough magical defence.
But I still laugh hideously when I think about this unit (18BG with Kouran and hell maybe even an Assassin). HEHEHEHEHEHHEHE
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Problem Hellebron is frenzied and can be lured out of the black guard unit.
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true but they move the same so really it's a downside that can be managed... by charging the BG in at the same time =)
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The only issue I see currently is that is 3/4 characters so I'd need a scroll caddy and 3DD, 2DS probably isn't enough magical defence.
What about the issue of being toughness 3 and having paper for armour?
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I changed the unit.
17 Black Guard- Tullaris, full command
HellebroneHag with ASF banner
Hag with rune of khaine and manbane
Assassin with rune of khain and manbane and extra hand weapon.
Iwould have loved to get a master with 3 null talismans into the unit but he's not khainite. So until I make contact with the enemy the Couldron casts 5+ ward save onto the unit plus I have 10 harpies flying around to cover the unit from shooting or to take out enemy archers/warmachines. I also have 5 cold ones on the flank and just behind designed to outflank enemy units or intercept enemy flankers the champ holding the Ring of Hotek
I'm not sure if this is an anti-deathstar or deathstar.
Hellebrone (assuming the couldron gives them +1 attack) has 8-10 attacks at WS7 str10
The assassin has 6-8 attacks on WS9 and 3+ to wound
The BSB has 5 attacks WS6 with poison str4
The death hag has 6-8 attacks at WS6 with 3+ to wound
Tullaris has 3 ws5 str6 killing blow
And 2 regular gus (unit in a 7 wide formation) so 4 ws5, str6 killing blow attacks.
my rought mathhammer tells me this unit could theortetically destroy a blood knights charge with 4 vamp heros.
The rest of the list is 3x14 witches, 2x Hydras, 2x5 Harpies, hag with couldron.
So it's a Har Ganeth army- nice theme, seems effective as well.
Crone Hellebron = 350
Death Hag Couldron of Blood. Rune of Khaine = 225
Death Hag BSB, Banner of Har Ganeth (Hag Graef), Dance of Doom =180
Death Hag Rune of khaine, manbane = 140
Witch Elves 14, rune of khaine = 165
Witch Elves 14, rune of khaine = 165
Witch Elves 14, rune of khaine = 165
Harpies 6 beasts = 66
Harpies 6 beasts = 66
Harpies 5 beasts = 55
Harpies 5 beasts = 55
Executioners 17, Full Command, Tullaris, warbanner = 342
Cold Ones 5, Ring of Hotek = 176
Hydra = 175
Hydra = 175
= 2500pts exactly.
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how is it an anti deathsar?
it is just a deathstar.
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You have to remember that's how they play it over there.
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Well it's designed to take out the Blood Knights death star.
Imho the death star would be the same but with Black Guard and a master with MR3, but unfortunatly Death Hags can't take any anti-magic items which is a shame. O realized I said 17 black guard, meant to be 17 Executioners and I need to fit an assassin in somewhere.
I'm thinking of attempting to convert Daemonettes into witchelves, you think it's an impossible task?
at Mr.D, a s I just wrote to a friend
"8-10 WS7 str10 attacks
6-8 WS9 str4 (up to str6) attacks
13-17 WS4 str3 (up to str6) attacks
7 WS5 str6 killing blow attacks.
With ASF, Stubborn 10, Cause Fear, no enemy CR bonuses for flank attacks or outnumbering plus hatred so re-roll my misses!! HAHAHAHAHAHAH Bloodthrister, skulltaker on Jugger and Blood Knights Deathstar- eat your hearts out!"
I should mention that I'm going to begin with spearmen, corsairs and dark riders so I have a more "suitable" list to play against friends with. What I posted was a possible themed tourney list
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Yeh, it sucks they play that way over there, but don't say "it is an anti deathstar, designed to take out a VC one" because it is just a deathstar, and an extremely fragile one. You need the half BS item.
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half bs?
you mean cloak of hag graf that 1/2s the strength of enemy ranged attacks (incl. spells) I can't get that with a Khainite theme.
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no. I don't have my book on me, but it halfs the BS or WS of hits against the unit.
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I'll have to check it out later myself.
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Damn kids, there are two items, TWO ITEMS! (Mainly directed at Bies after an argument over the half strength cloak)
The half strength cloak is a magical piece of armour.
The half BS when targeting bearer or his unit, and half WS when attacking him item, is a talisman.
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40 points but well invested only thing that still works fine and nice against them are great cannons :::cheers:::
character sniping for the win.
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I check up on this thread for the first time in a week or so, and surprise surprise, Bies is talking about using a deathstar. :wink:
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I check up on this thread for the first time in a week or so, and surprise surprise, Bies is talking about using a deathstar. :wink:
Considering it's one of the few ways for people in his gaming group to have a fair chance, I'm not surprised either. :-P
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So I made my 1st witchelf using a daemonette, modelled some boots and a boob and weapons onto it. Looks meh but I'm going to paint it and see how it works, will post a painted pic.
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Dark elves return!
I have finally finished one unit of dark elves, and also painted a new sorceress. So, here are pictures of those plus new pictures of everything else I have so far.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/western%20elves/xbow1.jpg)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/western%20elves/sorceress.jpg)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/western%20elves/bolter.jpg)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/western%20elves/captains.jpg)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/western%20elves/mageandassassin.jpg)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/western%20elves/hydra.jpg)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/western%20elves/cauldron.jpg)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/western%20elves/manticore.jpg)
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'Only model I really dislike is the hydra I like the cold one....well your heavy cavalry and the manticore.
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quite like the Hydra, taking the piss a bit!
I lost with my Delves V Brets tonight. I was so saddened that I went and bought the TK book.
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See, dark elves can officially lose! :-P I've done it plenty of times. (sorry, I've just been ranting in the other thread).
That manticore rocks. Loving the paintjob on the reaper too, very classy.
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You know what, I have actually picked up my DE too.
I have filled the holes on my Hydra, and constructed my DR.
Here is a 1500 point list I made. I quite like it.
Sorceress, level 2, Horse, Darkstar Cloak, Scroll
Sorceress, Level 2,
Master, GW, Armour of Darkness
25 Spearmen, Shields, Full Command
10 RXB
5 DR, RXB, Musician
5 DR, RXB, Musician
5 Harpies
5 Harpies
6 Shades, GW
5 CoK, Musician, Standard, Standard of Slaughter
RBT.
about 30 points spare too. Probably give the master a soulrender.
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I haven't touched my Dark Elves recently, but I think I can currently field a 2000 point army after the burst of painting a few months ago.
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OK guys I'm going to ask for your help.
Now I have a problem, lets leave aside the host of other problems I have but focus on my Dark Elf Problem (and playing them isn't a problem).
my army to date;
Dragon Lord
Mage on Dark Steed
Mage on foot
Bsb on dark steed
character on Dark steed (act as master or dreadlord).
20 Bowmen
10 corsairs- FC
2x6 shades (only use 1, 1 is the regular GW shades other unit is converted)
6 Dark Riders - herald and musician, no bows
1 chariot
2x5 Cold One knights with FC
Hydra
Now this is a hodspotch army made from various converstions (the chariot, dark riders and both mounted characters all converted from daemonette, helf and delf parts).
I have the shooty base of Shades and 2x10 Warriors
I have the mobile force with COK, Dark Riders, Chariot
I have the monster force with Dragon and Hydra.
However neither aspect of my army is overpowering or even that effective. As such I'm being hammered up here.
I simply can't decide how I want my army to play. I was contemplating a Monster army of Hellebron on Manticore, Hero on Manticore, 2 Hydra and the rest of the army crossbowmen (with assassins) and/or dark riders.
I could get the almost obligatory black guard regiment, but with only 1 foot unit I'm not sure the point.
I could do a Khainite theme with my Executioners Death Star printed a few posts up.
Corsair theme? See there are tones of possibilities I like them all but I need to decide for the April Tourney 2500pts.
I'm contemplating my next build.
Either another box of Cold Ones to make each unit 6 strong, can finish convesion on the chariot and the hero on darksteed will then be a hero on Cold One. At the same time I'd get a box of corsairs to flesh the unit to 18 men (6x3) leaving 2 for conversion purposes. - I like this idea as it fleshes out existing units I already have although I doubt Corsairs would be in any tourney list.
I could get another box of Silverhelms and Warriors to make 2 more units of Dark Riders so I have 3 - I like this idea as it gives me 2 more fast cav units and 2 more redirectors/sacrificial units which is something my army currently lacks.
I could get 2 bolt throwers - makes the firebase stronger but I don't want to get stuck in a defensive mindset with my delves, however bolt throwers always come in handy.
I could get a 2nd Hydra which makes my army a lot strog in the combat/monster aspect of my list.
ALTERNATIVELY I do an entire re-write.
Form the Cold Ones into 1 unit around 8-9 strong. Convert the BSB to be on Cold One. Possibly also convert for a Cold One Dreadlord (or go lv4, 2xlv2s and the bsb). Get the black guard and sacrifical unit of spearmen and some more dark riders and bowmen,1 hydra and 2 bolt throwers (or 2nd hydra). This seems to be the current "touney build' here but I don't want to do what everyone else is doing and ould like some theme - either Khainite or Karond Kar monster slave pens.
Finally...
There s always Tomb Kings to start or Empire to finish.
help me please...
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Drop the goth pixies and FINISH THAT EMPIRE. :icon_evil:
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Drop the goth pixies and FINISH THAT EMPIRE. :icon_evil:
hey i have 8k thats a respectable army...
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And how much of that is painted?
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And how much of that is painted?
Besides the bloody point! :engel:
The issue is what to do for the April Tourney.
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You should paint the Empire stuff and take them.
Or did you want an overpowered deathstar again?
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Eh, that's pretty much how it rolls over there from what Bies tells us, so fair enough.
As far as I go though, I wouldn't play someone who took a Hydra in 500 points.
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Eh, that's pretty much how it rolls over there from what Bies tells us, so fair enough.
As far as I go though, I wouldn't play someone who took a Hydra in 500 points.
I'm up to 2250pts. And what do you think of a Stegadon in 1000pts? 2x5 chaos knights in 1000pts, 2 Great cannons in 1000pts, an all knight bret army at 1000pts, 2 gorgers and 2 butchers at 1000pts.
It's how it plays doesn't bother me none.
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A single stegadon? Not really an issue.
2 Cannons? If that's all their artillery, not too bad.
All knight bret army? Falls under my "Spammed shit" thing, so I'd probably decline. People that spam the same type of crap get boring as hell to play against. If the guy is a great laugh though, sure, so long as it's not the same every game.
2x5 Chaos Knights? Eh, depends on the rest of the army but it's really edging it. I used to take 2 units at 2k points and sometimes felt bad about it, they really are devastating.
2 Gorgers and 2 Butchers? Sure, as I've clearly let the player break the rules by giving them 2 rares in 1k points, so I must be willing to play a "custom" list I knew about beforehand.
It's never entirely the list that's an issue, a large part is the player.
As a side note, trying to say that the Hydra in 500 points is fine is the same as saying the steam tank can be spiked in combat, in my eyes. :engel:
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it is the player not the list. Actually the maxim here is 'no such thing as cheesy lists, only cheesy players' to give you an idea there is one guy who plays the 14 trolls + troll king list he's now switched to Orcs - I told you his 3000pt list before but it's got 12 spear chukkas.
1 stegaddon and 2 more casters =P
Chaos knights + unkillable small points hero + marauder cav (his big list includes 4x6 units)
thanks for the ogre update.
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it is the player not the list. Actually the maxim here is 'no such thing as cheesy lists, only cheesy players' to give you an idea there is one guy who plays the 14 trolls + troll king list he's now switched to Orcs - I told you his 3000pt list before but it's got 12 spear chukkas.
Lists allow the abuse, but yes, the player is the one who writes the list. Also, it all depends on the players being of like mind about the game. We are not, in general, of like mind from what you tell me. Just saying, is all.
1 stegaddon and 2 more casters =P
That's 2 level 2's at best, that can be a bit high but it's not staggering at 1000 points.
Chaos knights + unkillable small points hero + marauder cav (his big list includes 4x6 units)
What is this unkillable hero? Mine made a point of dying a lot. Sounds like a cavalry spam list though, so same as bret answer.
thanks for the ogre update.
Has someone been bad with ogres? :engel:
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Beis, I would definitely start with more DR units.
However, I found my list with with DR and CoK quite fragile. Yo end up playing "keepaway" quite a lot.
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Dark Riders are indeed like glass. They shatter easily but if they get under your skin, they are going to be a major pain. I treat them usually a bit like Empire players seem to treat helstorms, I either don't take them (very rare) or I take two or more of them (nearly always).
Unless I am being really tight with my points I arm them with the xbows too, because otherwise I regret it. Either there is some point in the battle where they get charged and want to take it, but also want to s&s or they end up where they could have shot down a character or somesuch and can't now.
I haven't used CoK much since the new book because I was waiting till I got mine looking all nice and shiny, plus they always sucked for me last book. Now I've got them painted though, I'm going to give them a run out. My main problem is that my two most common enemies are lizards and WoC which means they are outcavelried by both if it comes to a head to head.
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I always take at least one unit, often two.
The one time I sandwiched a big bretonnian bus of knights between them and some harpies and just stood there (he could only go forward, and there was a forest infront, only option was to reform and reverse).
It didn't help when I started shooting the knights who were trapped with a RBT on a hill.
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Mr. D sorry by stegadon I mean Engine of the Gods. So thats 3 lv2s, well I guess 1lv3 and 2 lv2s.
OK so you think more Dark Riders. This coincides with my own thinking somewhat.
Another box of warriors/silverhlems and I can have 3 units of 6 which should do it.
a key issue i'm having is that I really play a flee/countercharge game. Even if I could stay in combat or slightly win if I hold I always prefer to flee and then hit hard in my turn. One issue with my list is I have no way to do this as I only have a single unit. Last game I fled with both cold one knight units and my chariot which is not what they're meant to do- simply because I had no fast cav screen in front.
I'm also liking the idea of executioners or black guard. I know black guard are "better" but executioners interest me more. As I can't buy anything this month I figure I'll play a few games with what I have and I'll eventually figure out what I need/want
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Mr. D sorry by stegadon I mean Engine of the Gods. So thats 3 lv2s, well I guess 1lv3 and 2 lv2s.
That is so vastly different from what was presented, I think you can guess I would find it a bit of a silly list.
Yes, you need MOAR MOAR MOAR dark riders.
MOAR.
It shouldn't really be reaching the stage where you're fleeing with chariots/cold ones unless they failed stupidity. Dark Riders are just plain brilliant.
Executioners aren't bad, Blackguard are just too good/undercosted in comparison, so "relatively" the executioners are bad.
If they get support though, they become very nice (Cauldron of Blood), but then you're paying support just to make a unit "Viable".
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exactly the one reason I'm hesitant on Executioners is that they really need a BSB with ASF banner + Couldron (although this is optional) to be effective.
and if I was taking Executioners I'd take Hellebron. So thats 3 character slots right away. So then I have no magic defence.
Black Guard issue is everyone takes black guard... but then they do stand alone which is imho the real reason to take them.
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Black Guard issue is everyone takes black guard... but then they do stand alone which is imho the real reason to take them.
Even I do, but I've always wanted to use them, but never painted them. Was fun rushing to paint them all after so long a few months ago. Executioners were the ones I was going to get second, but at the time I lacked the funds, and now my Delves are on hold for other projects. One day I will get them, probably when I paint my based Cauldron.
And no magic defence? I though that was what the much maligned ring was for?
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yes but there are some things that can get through the ring such as invoc spam etc.
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Ah, kill em all with knives.
From what I hear, taking the ring instantly invalidates your opponent from even having magic dice.
How strange to hear different.
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Ah, kill em all with knives.
From what I hear, taking the ring instantly invalidates your opponent from even having magic dice.
How strange to hear different.
Oh it works, once your opponent has miscast once or twice it's great but there are still ways around it.
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It was sarcasm dear.
I think after Friday I might post a picture of all my painted Dark Elves.
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It was sarcasm dear.
I think after Friday I might post a picture of all my painted Dark Elves.
whats with guys calling me dear. Thats the 5th time this week someones gone "dear" to me...
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Itīs because your so cute, dear! :icon_razz:
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whats with guys calling me dear. Thats the 5th time this week someones gone "dear" to me...
I think it's because he is Margaret Thatcher.
You know, I still toy with the idea of taking mini units of the specials, the fact that you can take only 5 makes me feel like it could be used to your advantage for a little extra killing power here or there...
I've never really tried, but it could almost be like detachments who can actually carve something up too... I know they will be highly vulnerable to missile fire, but if they soak up that missile fire, the bigger units survive and if they don't, well you have things like 5 killing blow str5 attacks or 15 poison attacks extra...
Even if they do kill three of them, that's still a few extra special attacks you can lend to a combat and with dark elves, fleeing isn't so much a worry as with Empire...
Anyone seen a dark elf player utilize such a tactic?
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Not to numbers that small, no. We don't have the extra special slots like High Elves to pull something like that off (they do it with swordmasters).
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Sure we do!
Our core units are good enough that we can get away with just a couple of specials... if you really wanted to. And in fairness, we often play at low points values round here where taking a big old unit of black guard or shades is kinda risky or cheesy. So my special slots are often open...
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It's close to impossible for me to get small games here.
And I get constantly asked for 5k games even though people know I don't have that much, and hate big games.
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I think I'm fortunate that people around here generally don't have enough time or patience for big games either. It's been a long long time (years) since I played anything over 2000pts and I really probably play only a few 2000pts a year too.
1500 and under for us, on the whole, though I'm itching to play a 2000pt battle because I never get to use lord characters...
5k is rediculous! Well, it's fair enough I suppose but I can't even imagine how long it would take us to play a game that big.
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It takes us 3 hours to do a 2000 point game usually, maybe a bit more. I've said before, but I much prefer atmospheres so relaxed some people are almost falling asleep. I don't play tabletop games for any reasons other than I like them and they're relaxing.
But we have a limit of 3 hours 45 minutes, and knowing this, people still try to demand 5k games. I just ask how do they expect it to work? Seriously and they say "Well, we'll manage!".
I'm going to channel Davey Jones (Bill Nighy's voice) here and say
"No you don't :wink:"
Small games where you don't need to rush to finish, and sometimes get another game in, I love it. Larger games have a place for others, but mostly not for me.
I did get shanghaid into a 3 v 3 v 3 with 2000 points per player, but it was cancelled when "The Other" signed up for it (people who read the skaven thread will know who I mean).
Within a day 4 people had dropped out. Then the organiser said he had to go take care of his baby on the day. Which he isn't. :biggriin:
But anyway, slightly on topic, yes, our core are very good, slightly underpointed in the case of warriors, but the specials can be so good no-one uses them. This is a shame really. With my Dark Elves at 2000 I almost always have 5 core, and only 2 of those are dark riders. :-P (and I'm not counting the one unit of harpies)
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We're still trying to fix a date for our 30000 pts game....
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I usually have some spearmen in there, whether a large nasty unit of them or just some small ones to annoy the enemy, then I'll have a unit of crossbows and sometimes one of corsairs (hand bows) to give some protection on the flanks from fast cavalry. And of course a couple of units of dark riders and some harpies.
I'd probably use even more spears if I had them, if I had some of the new corsairs (add hand weapon) and not a unit of the butt ugly two edition old ones, I'd probably run them more often cos they are useful against all the shooty armies I face in terms of staying alive staying alive hah hah hah ha staying alive staying alive.
So often I find myself debating which one or two specials I'll take. Now my cold ones are ready, they'll probably move up the list, but most commonly I'll take take some shades (I only have 8 though) and some black guard. Now the cold ones are ready, I'll get my chariots painted up and run them sometimes for some scaryness value...
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We're still trying to fix a date for our 30000 pts game....
that would be awesome...
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We're still trying to fix a date for our 30000 pts game....
Well I can book a truck for my army anytime - it's just you guys need to get organised .................
:engel:
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I want a chariot, but they don't make one.
And no, I don't want to make my own out of the lionmobile either.
hate big games.
Me too. Boring.
It's more fun looking at all the models set up than actually playing for however many billion hours it takes,
sometimes one of corsairs (hand bows)
Do you find those useful? That is, corsairs with crossbow pistols.
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I do find them useful as a flank holder/attacker. I just line them up 10 wide and advance down the flank. You don't get shot up too bad as either there are other more viable targets or you get your 4+ ward save and if the enemy ignores you, not only can you move into range and get one shot off before they charge, but you can always get a shot off in s&s too.
And all this for only 100pts.
I'll probably be shouted down that there is it's better to have more dark riders or crossbows or something else, but I don't really run on 100% maths, not only do I like the variation in my army, it also can be a bit more under the radar than the rightly feared dark riders and is a little less fragile than the other shooty units.
Just my feelings, but they've worked for me.
Oh, or the other thing I'll do is use them right in front of my reapers, just sit there the whole game. You have to get through a s&s and combat with them if you want to take out my reapers...
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#
I'll probably be shouted down that there is it's better to have more dark riders or crossbows or something else
You like them, you take them, mister.
:biggriin:
Ah, my work is done, I think I shall paint tonight, and take pictures.
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We got a mini tourney here (1000pts - probably 3 games) on Saturday and whilst my chances of going are about 20%, I can't help but think what I'd take.
I'm a bit bored of taking a sorceress and blasting people off the table (miscasts aside) so I was thinking about instead taking a Master with the old Crystal of midnight & Blood Armour, most likely a lance for killing. It'd be a bit of a gamble in terms of it working right, but at this points level you're likely to take out if not their only magic, then probably 50% of it. I don't know the odds on 3d6, but they can't be bad.
Guess I might take another Master too, plonk him in some infantry and try and bulk out on combat prowess. I usually balance things quite evenly between combat, shooting and magic, but this time, combat could be my forte, obviously with some speed thrown in. I'll try to avoid the hydra at this points level.
One thing I was wondering, spears are at +1 strength when used on a chariot right? Can you also use a lance from a chariot? If so, a hero on chariot could be nasty...
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I don't think you can use a lance on chariot. But yes spears are +1 str. on chariots.
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I don't think you can use a lance on chariot. But yes spears are +1 str. on chariots.
Sure you can. There isn't a rule against it - its just that chariots don't give the option for their crew to carry one.
Also, not many armies have heroes that can carry lances and also ride chariots - I can only realy think of 3 - High Elves, Dark Elves, Warriors of Chaos.
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If you can use a lance off a stegadon, you sure as hell can use one off a chariot.
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Plus the fact that the image of lancing someone in a chariot charge is TOTALLY AWESOME.
8-)
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Plus the fact that the image of lancing someone in a chariot charge is TOTALLY AWESOME.
8-)
TBH of all the reasons as to why it should be allowed Merricks is the 1 answer I'd quote to my opponent.
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Hehe, yeh, I guess it's one of those things like a halberd for a mounted guy which just seems weird to be using in that situation... I'll probably use it, cos a few more str6 attacks on the charge won't be a bad thing. I'd give him a magic lance, but it runs the risk of being a total waste of points with one well placed cannon shot...
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What I quite enjoyed 4000 point game with the restrictions of a 2000 point game.
so 4 characters, 3+ core, 4 elite, 2 rare
you get great army lists out of those games and the focus isnīt on who drops the magic a bomb on the enemy first, or which super deathstar unit kills more.
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I quite want to make a chariot/infantry army.
If they ever released a new chariot I would probably buy 3.
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Why donīt you guys take the gamezone chariot? :unsure:
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I actually have a high elf chariot (with tomb king wheels) and two of the new cold ones standing by, awaiting construction, but it seemed silly to put it together yet when I am still in the process of rehashing my old one. Plus I have all my harpies to do...
But sometime soon I will be a 2 chariot army! :icon_twisted:
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I was thinking... that banner of armour piercing that dark elves have... would that apply to both shooting and combat... or just combat?
Because if it was both, it could be fairly nifty in say, a unit of corsairs... pretty much everyone else in the army already has armour piercing...
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I think it might be both. Not sure.
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"a unit with the BoM gains the armour piercing rule"
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I'm thinking it probably is both... because it doesn't say it isn't... but you know how it is... I wasn't sure if it might be one of those things where they just weren't specific enough and we're supposed to be gentlemanly about it all...
But if not, I might well try this on a unit of corsairs. Could be interesting to see how it works...
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I'm pretty sure I've seen the BOM on corsairs before as well. So ou get their handbow x2 shots but still keep the -1AS.
TBH it could come in all sorts of handy. A unit of Cold Ones suddenly subtracts 4 from enemy saves, thats putting heavy cav up to 6+ and most heavy infantry will get no save :biggriin:
armour piercing Black Guard to make them a little more killy (of course you'd need a BSB with this banner or with ASF banner in the unit)
fun fun fun.
I played a great game yesterday vs Orcs. 2000pts.
lv4 - black amulet, dark star cloak, mounted dark steed
lv2 - ps, ds
lv2 - 2xds
BSB - SoM, Pendant, steed, HA, Sh, SDC
10 bowmen
10 corsairs - FC - frenzy banner
6 dark riders - herald/muso, rxbows
10 black guard - FC - ASF banner
10 cold one knights - FC, KB champ, +d3CR banner
5 shades
vs
Black Orc warboss
Black Orc big boss BSB ith warbanner
Goblin hero on wolf with that item that causes d6 str6 hits when you kill him and 1 hit wunda
goblin shaman, lv2 with 2xDS.
3x25 orc boyz - fc
2x25 night goblin bowmen with 2 fanatics each
4 spear chukkas
doom diver
3x5 wolf riders
5 spider riders
2000pts each side. Yea I was slightly outnumbered.
In reality I had my butt kicked. The corsairs and black guard were butchered to a man via fanatics and goblin shooting *o the shame*.
He WAAAAAGHed his orc boyz with BSB into the Cold ones (who had been suffering 2-3 spear chukka shots a turn) in turn 3 and won combat and chased them down...
So by my turn 4 I had 5 dark riders, 10 bowmen, and all my characters (so still 1200pts actually). Well my wizards let rip. I got off 2 Black Horror spells that killed 18 orcs in general sending the BSB and Warlord fleeing.
the orcs rallied and moved forward with a line of Orc, Goblin, Orc +warlord, Goblin units in the direct centre of the board.
I cast Black Horror on the goblins killed 12 had the unit flee (my casters were on the right flank of the enemy line so the goblins fled through all 4 units before ending 16" from the table edge.
I then cast Black Horror on the Warlord, killed 8 orcs, unit paniced landing 10" from the table. This caused the other goblin unit to panic landing 6"from the table edge. The warlord also caused the other orc unit toflee landing 1" from the table edge.
So with 2 crazy spells the majority of the Orc army was fleeing. Next turn the Warlord rallied, along wiht 1 goblin unit, the others fleeing off the table.
I then horrored the BSB orc unit to oblivion and a chillwind by my 3rd wizard got the goblins fleeing T6 and they failed to rally.
Through this all my BSB was doing his warmachine huntng job and over the course of the game took out 3 spear chukkas and the doomdiver.
At the end I scored a massacre which was surprising considering how bad the first 3 turns were (I miscast 3 out of 5 times, ending the magic phase twice before I could cast Black Horror).
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Well, I got a battle against the brother tomorrow, Dark Elf against Empire, 2000pts. First time above 2000 for aaaaages so it should be fun. I'm having a horrible time trying to decide what I want to take cos I want to try something unusual.
My normal instinct would be to go for a well protected L4 Sorceress I think, but I've plumped for a Dreadlord and seeing as I am currently between mounted dreadlords, I'm putting him on foot in one of my infantry units. Not only that, but due to all the points drain from my characters, I'm only using two, the DL and a BSB, so this really will be interesting. At the end, I couldn't decide what unit to take, so I did something else unusual and threw in an assassin, who I completely lost hope in last edition.
So anywho, here's my list... it's weird, but I wanted to try out the different magic items and such...
L: Dreadlord; g.w, sh, s.d.c; armour of eternal servitude, seal of ghrond
H: Battle Standard; g.w, armour of darkness, null talisman
C: 10 Corsairs inc mus & reaver; h.b
C: 10 Crossbows inc guardmaster; sh
C: 21 Spearelves inc command; sh, war banner
C: 5 Dark Riders inc musician; r.c.b
C: 6 Harpies
S: 15 Black Guard inc command; banner of murder, null talisman
S: Chariot
S: 6 Cold One Knights inc command: standard of slaughter, null talisman
R: War Hydra
R: Reaper
X: Assassin; a.h.w, rune of khaine, dark venom
So there it is. Worryingly small and fragile considering the points level we are playing at and fact I only have two characters. But hopefully the spears and blackguard, with a hydra filling and chariot on the side will be a scary nut to crack. With the banner, I'm not affraid to charge my cold ones into a unit head on and indeed if supported by the dark riders who can block the detachment, could be a surprise.
The missile units are mainly there for flank hold ups and reaper protection duty. The harpies are either gonna fly over and try and bug war machines if there are enough nasty ones, or screen my horribly small yet expensive black guard. Maybe both...
I'm not gonna make many changes I think, but any thoughts?
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MAgic defense
oo slow. Foot characters. Can't he just avoid your 2 infantry units with them in?
But you knew that already.
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It's risky for sure.
I thought about a manticore lord... last time I used one it was devastation all round. But that was against a slow lizard army.
But I am hoping that he will take a reasonably balanced army, in which case I reckon my heroes may see some fighting. I'm going to fling them up the centre with that hope anyways.
My magic defence is indeed haphazard, but I really wanted to try and avoid using the old miscast trigger one, mainly from a trying to be interesting point of view, hehe.
I'm hoping all the nulling and extra dispel dice from my general will see me through until someone can beat up the mages :-P.
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So I'm lining up a 2500pt game against Daemons with my dark elves in the next week or so.
Now I finally bought the latest instalment for my army (the Dark Elf Spearhead box) so my army looks like:
Dreadlord on Dragon
Hero on Cold One
BSB on Dark Steed (love this character)
Sorceress on Dark Steed
Sorceress on Cold One
Sorceresses on foot x2
Lokhir Felheart
Assassin x1
26x Bowmen
20x Corsairs - 1xFC
15xCOK - 2xFC
10x Harpies
1xChariot
10 Shades (5 converted, 5 regular)
15 Black Guard - 1xFC
6 Dark Riders - Muso, Herald
Hydra x2
So I want to make the NASTIEST army possible with what I have.
I was thinking:
Dearlord on Cold One - Caledors Bane, Armour of Eternal Servitude, Ring of Hotek, shield, SDC
BSB on Dark Steed - Pendant, Sword of Might, HA, Shield, SDC
lv2 - 2xDS
lv2 - 2xDS
Assassin- +d3 attacks, extra handweapon, manbane
2x10 bowmen
6 darkriders
14 blackguard (assassin in here), ASF banner
11 Cold one Knights - +d3 CR banner, champ with Immune to Psych (I know with with the dreadlord they're ld10 but at least now they're immune to fear and panic).
2x5 shades - Great weapons
2xHydra.
Do you think this is a really really nasty army? Or should I go for something like:
Malikith on Dragon
Maleus Dark Blade
Lokhir Helheart
Assassin *as above
2x10 bowmen
6 dark riders
15 black guard *as above - assassin and lokhir in here
1x9 COK *as above
2x5 Shades *as above
2x Hydra
I just spoke to my opponent and he's going to be maxing out daemons as hard as he can possibly make them, so don't hold back in helping me make as ultimate WAAC list as possible with my models... :biggriin:
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so is this too nasty?
Crone Helebrone
BSB on foot with ASF banner
master with 3xNull Talismans
master with immune to fear and ring of hotek
2x10 bowmen - assassin in each with +d3 attacks, extra handweapon, killing blow
6xdark riders - mus
10 shades - assassin with +d3 attacks, extra handweapon, killing blow, shades with greaet weapons - ALL characters in here, other assassin join unit T1.
2x Hydra.
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Yeah, that's the kind of stuff I would never play with or against, and gives DE players a collective bad name.
Answer ye question?
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Yeah, that's the kind of stuff I would never play with or against, and gives DE players a collective bad name.
Answer ye question?
Sweet! :engel:
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So I am coming in really late here, but I just started looking at DE. I can't help but wonder why people aren't using tons of spearmen. for 6 points they just seem...obvious. Maybe I am thinking to empire-ish, but those big blocks of troops seem awfully tasty for the point cost, plus the extra movement, WS, initiative....
So if I start, I was thinking at least 2 blocks of 30 spearmen...but I haven't seen any lists (and I was skimming) that really shapes the army up around these guys. Am I missing something?
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Spearmen really are good. Mine nearly always outperform my other units because people are concentrating on zapping things like dark riders, black guard, harpies, chariots, cold one knights etc etc and they tend to come in last on the need-to-kill list.
Which is good because they are pretty nasty in combat. I've even had units of just 18 or so perform really well against whole ranked up units against them. I'd take multiple units of spears, I only don't because what with wanting to collect a unit of everything, I'm only just now getting round to pumping up the things I want more of. I'd definitely run more if I had more though.
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I can't help but wonder why people aren't using tons of spearmen.
Three reasons:
1: I already have loads of Empire infantry, and don't want a dark elf army that is exactly the same except better.
2: the spearmen models look bad. They look reasonable as crossbowmen though.
3: elf horde is an oxymoron.
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so is this too nasty?
Crone Helebrone
BSB on foot with ASF banner
master with 3xNull Talismans
master with immune to fear and ring of hotek
2x10 bowmen - assassin in each with +d3 attacks, extra handweapon, killing blow
6xdark riders - mus
10 shades - assassin with +d3 attacks, extra handweapon, killing blow, shades with greaet weapons - ALL characters in here, other assassin join unit T1.
2x Hydra.
Yes, but I have seen, and faced worse
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I can't help but wonder why people aren't using tons of spearmen.
Three reasons:
1: I already have loads of Empire infantry, and don't want a dark elf army that is exactly the same except better.
2: the spearmen models look bad. They look reasonable as crossbowmen though.
3: elf horde is an oxymoron.
Or to sum up, not really for any good reason. :-P
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4. turning up with a horde of dark elf spearmen to a game against an Empire player would really be taking the piss. Especially considering the dark elf army book is already something of a piss-take.
5. the spearmen have creepy giant hands. Like the older plastic skaven.
See, there are no end of reasons!
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Ok, you win.
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I can't help but wonder why people aren't using tons of spearmen.
2: the spearmen models look bad. They look reasonable as crossbowmen though.
hmm...you could use empire spearmen as a substitute. those look cool. :engel:
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You know I've always quite liked the Dark Elf Spearmen...
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hmm...you could use empire spearmen as a substitute. those look cool.
Very true. And after swapping the bolt throwers for some cannons and the hydras for steam tanks, you'll be well on your way to having yourself a good looking army 8-)
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Added an angel there for ya Eckman. :icon_wink:
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Dark Elf spear blocks are very good but the rest of the stuff is even better
large spear units lead by a hero on cold one are even immune to fear (ok they are stupid but who cares on ld 10) and he also can pack quite a punch with that always S6 halberd and that beastmaster scourge that grants him always S5 with -3 to AS. (you can place him on an elven steed so he only will have As of 2+
heavy armour 5+
horsie 4+
shield 3+
sea dragon cloak2+
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Dark elves are in insane in so many ways. But the greenskin player you faced must have VERY brave, Nicolas Bies. I will present him with a medal if I ever meet him! Taking only a measly lv2 gobbo for magic when he knows he is facing you? That takes balls.
And you should not be so suprised about it going bad, you just had some bad dice rolls with your magic. Had you not had it, you would have won by turn three.
That is why I loathe magic heavy in the game today. It is so powerful you simply have to load up on magic yourself to ensure you will survive to fight. There is no real merit in going for a more fighty army since it is the worst possible force without severe magic protection.
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Added an angel there for ya Eckman. :icon_wink:
I was agreeing with your sentiment rather than mocking it! :wink:
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Dark elves are in insane in so many ways. But the greenskin player you faced must have VERY brave, Nicolas Bies. I will present him with a medal if I ever meet him! Taking only a measly lv2 gobbo for magic when he knows he is facing you? That takes balls.
And you should not be so suprised about it going bad, you just had some bad dice rolls with your magic. Had you not had it, you would have won by turn three.
That is why I loathe magic heavy in the game today. It is so powerful you simply have to load up on magic yourself to ensure you will survive to fight. There is no real merit in going for a more fighty army since it is the worst possible force without severe magic protection.
You contradict yourself here. Many armies don't need to load up on magic protection - you just have to build your army appropriately. O&G are a great army to not purchase wizards, as for a 50pt banner, then can easily get +3 DD when it matters. Add a cheap wizard (gobbo) and you are ready to go. One of the only things O&G do well is cheap DD.
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Dark elves are in insane in so many ways. But the greenskin player you faced must have VERY brave, Nicolas Bies. I will present him with a medal if I ever meet him! Taking only a measly lv2 gobbo for magic when he knows he is facing you? That takes balls.
And you should not be so suprised about it going bad, you just had some bad dice rolls with your magic. Had you not had it, you would have won by turn three.
That is why I loathe magic heavy in the game today. It is so powerful you simply have to load up on magic yourself to ensure you will survive to fight. There is no real merit in going for a more fighty army since it is the worst possible force without severe magic protection.
You contradict yourself here. Many armies don't need to load up on magic protection - you just have to build your army appropriately. O&G are a great army to not purchase wizards, as for a 50pt banner, then can easily get +3 DD when it matters. Add a cheap wizard (gobbo) and you are ready to go. One of the only things O&G do well is cheap DD.
Also I usually use a very magic light Delf list...
having a glance at the O&G book I was depressed to find no MR or major magic defence buffs except for that banner giving you +3DD.
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as magic resistance is really screwed as it is right now (no MR against spells that do damage to everything in a certain influence area) I personally prefer dispel dice. Empire also is great in this department Arch lector, warrior priest, wizard with rod of power (lvl 1) grant you whopping 8 dispel dice (7 if you are a chicken) and you have great leadership and decent combat power there are few armies that can match that.
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I don't think magic resistance is ever worth having.
Well, maybe if you know in advance you will be playing against Mr. Magic Missile, or something.
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Or you have several large units and nothing else. But then you're an idiot anyway.
Mogsam
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Like Mogsie and Rufus said. Magic resistance is worth little! It only helps if your enemys magic is based on blasting you with it, then it can be alright.
I have to deal with Vampire counts and Tomb kings. Their magic is primarily based around moving their units and replenish their losses, and there is nothing magic resistance help you against.
If you go magic light against them, you better spam on shooting so you can blast them so much they simply cannot raise everything back!
So no, magic resistance will not aid you against the most magical armies, and hence, it is of little value when you feel you would need it the most. And to leave his magic unhindered is to invite disaster. I feel a key part of fighting magically dependant armies is to be able to contest the their magic phase to lessen itīs effect. And against careful VC generals, no amount of mage hunting will aid you fast enough unless it is backed up by massive firepower. And then the game has turned into a match of whose strongest phase will be more important than the others. Rock, paper etc....
Sure, the O&G are the only army able to somehow mitigate that, and I think they got that banner to be able to go the more fighty orcy way. Still, it is not enough in the present warhammer world, unless you make somekind of agreement beforehand.
And taking several big blocks is asking for a focus on forcing you to take panic tests. Sooner or later you will have the the expirience of a panic wave along the table.
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The best anti-magic vc VC : a brace of cannons.
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Hmmm no. If you have a strong magic defense it is not as bad but otherwise the vampire just summons 5 zombies in front of the cannon and charges them in via van hels.
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My last game disagrees.
His turn one : I manage to stop his most important casting.
My turn one : I blow his general to bits.
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Well serves him right playing VC :happy:
I guess he didnīt have the black gold wristbands granting him a 3+ ward save against missiles?
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Nope. Loaded up on power dice generators.. 14 PD or something silly like that.
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Did he at least try to swing the game in his favour or did he do the classical VC player
Moan and quit!
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To his credit, he played on till turn three.
I lost 2 men and a couple wounds on a stank, he had 2 units of 7 skeletons and 1 vamp left at that point.
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It's just a waste of time to play on.
The scenario should be concede defeat, reset and start immediately again.
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He felt he still had a chance.. which he obviously didn't.
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Oh, come on. It's funny watching their army collapse each turn!
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I avoid character sniping with cannons. My friend Tom thinks it is a dirty and unfair tactic.
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It is realistic...havenīt you watched Glory!
a 2+ ward save gives enough protection for those characters hiding in units.
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My friend Tom thinks it is a dirty and unfair tactic.
Does he play VC, by any chance?
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I avoid character sniping with cannons. My friend Tom thinks it is a dirty and unfair tactic.
Aren't there things that Tom does that you think are dirty and unfair? Awefully charitable of you - especially seeing as its allowed, even encouraged in the rules.
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..One of my regular opponants sees fleeing charges as a dirty tactic.
He plays Vampires.
Mogsam
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Added an angel there for ya Eckman. :icon_wink:
I was agreeing with your sentiment rather than mocking it! :wink:
crap. :blush:
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..One of my regular opponants sees fleeing charges as a dirty tactic.
He plays Vampires.
Mogsam
I get that as well.
character sniping is regarded as a nasty play style after I shot Skulltaker out of a unit of Bloodletters turn 1 in the tourney last year - actually that guy refuses to play me nowdays.
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I did that at the dutch gt a few years back.
Facing a stragoi flying circus army.
15 minutes. Depolying I get first turn
Cannon kills general on first shot withg all characters in one unit. He moaned and quit and I had a boring two and a halt hours waiting for next round.
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I did that at the dutch gt a few years back.
Facing a stragoi flying circus army.
15 minutes. Depolying I get first turn
Cannon kills general on first shot withg all characters in one unit. He moaned and quit and I had a boring two and a halt hours waiting for next round.
thats unfortunate. I'm sure many of us have similiar stories, I myself did the same thing 2 yrs back in a local tourney. However my opponent continued playing and managed to stop me from getting a massacre (go a Solid). Difference of 5pts overall which can be important.
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I think the moaning is partially because they feel robbed of the game by a simple dice roll. Tom does not have any problem having his general killed in a "fair fight" that took some efforts and tactical manuevring to achieve, but just pasting on turn one is not funny for him.
In the end, it also boils down to him believeing that the best way to defeat VC if having more and larger unit than him, since he feel the psychology have so little impact. This is of course due to me being careful about high leadership, fear mitigating items etc...
He is very good with TK I should say, so it is not that he is a poor player and tactician. Itīs just that he hangs on to old WHFB ideals and canīt accept how different the books are today. He plays VC very much like TK, using as much low level spells as possible etc. Thankfully, he likes to fight aswell, so he does not go all the way with maxing powerdice, yet this means you donīt want to engage his lord in CC. Especially not since his lord is always babysitted by his Wight BSB.
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My friend Tom thinks it is a dirty and unfair tactic.
Does he play VC, by any chance?
I fucking knew it!
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Returning to dark elves:
How about the new plastic lord of the rings wraith on dragon-beast thing as a dark elf dragon?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1360000&prodId=prod480006a
I'm not sure if I like it or not... it's more tasteful than the cartoonish high elf dragon, certainly.
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i like it, and its different then the helf dragon so you could use it as a manticore as well
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I dislike the head otherwise it is fine.
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I dislike the head otherwise it is fine.
That was my initial thought as well. Then I figured it's different enough to act as a manticore- although I wouldn't mind seeing what it would be like if you cut the neck back some and put in a White Lion head there instead (without the silly beard).
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I like the braided hair of the white lions .....Still sounds like a good idea even if the head might look strange on the long neck. Like a giraffe lion.
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I like the braided hair of the white lions .....Still sounds like a good idea even if the head might look strange on the long neck. Like a giraffe lion.
Thats why I'd cut the neck back. I was originally going to do it with the Helf Dragon but couldn't bring myself to butcher such an awesome model.
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I quite like that one! Allways wished they'd make a big flying monster that actually flys.
I'd give manticoring it a go. Though it'd be expensive without having the lion chariot first.
Mogsam
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I dislike the head otherwise it is fine.
There are two heads.
I think it looks quite nice, and won't fall over like a metal one would.
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Love it
Think it'd be funny as a manticore. I always imagined manticores to be pretty stocky, but that thing is all long and slender.
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For manticores, you could consider that other LotR evil monster thing which stands erect on its hindlegs, wings spread (I'm too lazy to dig it up, sorry).
I had considered to use it as an abyssal terror, but since my VC plans went straight to Limbo...
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Balrog? Certainly built more like a manticore.
I think the Nazgul would work for the vampire lord on undead dragon thing too.
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And we are back to the VC again :happy:
seems to be some kind of curse.
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well i don't like the current manticore model so anything that looks like it causes terror, flys and isn't a dragon fits the bill for me.
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I think the Nazgul would work for the vampire lord on undead dragon thing too.
And for a dark elf lord. In a hoodie.
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The hoodie should be larger otherwise his uptied hair wouldnīt fit under it.
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Balrog? Certainly built more like a manticore.
Nice, but no. This fellow:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat150171a&prodId=prod1090050
I rather liked him. Question is whether you could put a rider on him. Failing that, you could just put the rider on the base and say that he has dismounted or something.
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Oh, that. Definitely a demon prince.
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That is an awesome :icon_eek: awesome model.
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well i don't like the current manticore model so anything that looks like it causes terror, flys and isn't a dragon fits the bill for me.
it looks 100% like a dragon to me
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Balrog? Certainly built more like a manticore.
Nice, but no. This fellow:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat150171a&prodId=prod1090050
I rather liked him. Question is whether you could put a rider on him. Failing that, you could just put the rider on the base and say that he has dismounted or something.
Oh wow, I've never seen that guy before. He is pure demon prince!
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I saw it as a Wyvern. Not sure a bulky Orc body would look right on there though.
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I saw it as a Wyvern. Not sure a bulky Orc body would look right on there though.
The Nazgul right not the Beat of Arnor?
Well it's got no front arms so it certainly matches a Wyvern over a dragon in that respect. Although it does look like the neck is too thin.
That said it may make for a Goblin warboss counts as Black Orc on Wyvern model...*ponders*
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Well it's got no front arms so it certainly matches a Wyvern over a dragon in that respect.
Well, except for all the famous two-legged dragons. The one from '80s film Dragonslayer springs to mind.
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Not to mention the legless dragons...
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If that's about to become a pun of some sort, forget it!
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Goblin Warboss on Wyvern counting as a Black orc ditto sounds cool. Put two gobbos onto the back of it for good measure! :icon_mrgreen:
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Sorceress, Horse, DS Cloak, Scroll, 197
Master, Cold one, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, SDC, 114 pts
Master, Armour of Darkness, G.W. 109
25 Spear Elves, Full Command, Banner of Murder, 215
10 Crossbowmen 100
5 DR, RXB, Muso, 117
6 Harpies, 66
6 Shades, GW, 108
5 CoK, Muso, Standard, Standard of Slaughter, 194 pts
RBT, 100
Hydra, 175
1495
fighting Tostig. He will have 2 units of Halberdiers, 2 units of knights, and quite a lot of artillery.
Is it too mean? The Hydra is a bit mean. But I don't have ASF blackguard, or any of the horrid magic items. I was thinking of dropping the horse and darkstar cloack, and having the sorceress with the sacrificial dagger in the warriors. But I think that would only pay dividends with another sorceress.
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That doesn't look too mean to me.
Only one sorceress, only one dark rider unit, one harpies, small unit of shades. It's a hard hitting army, but quite fragile if it starts to take casualties. I like it.
And whilst a hydra can potentially be mean, it can also be shot down with all that artillery if he's lucky.
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It's a hard hitting army, but quite fragile if it starts to take casualties. I like it.
That was what I found when I played it at 1000 points.
My 2000 point list has no warriors, but 2 units of CoK, and 2 units of DR and lots of magic. If you take out the Hydra and the CoK, I have nothing that can really do anything in CC.
Although last game I used my DE, Tostig zapped 3 CoK with lightning, and the remaining 2 with a master still managed to kill his knights and halberdiers in CC.
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Is there any such thing as a "solid" Delf list? One thing I'm experiencing is that for the 1st half of the game I'm running the show as I move faster and hit harder then almost any thing else. But the moment my initial momentum has been stopped (often with the bodies of my foes :closed-eyes:) and I start getting counter-charged etc. I begin to take some seriously heavy casualties.
Your list looks quite fun, lets you play around in every phase without apearing to dominate any.
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well, DE > Empire.
Which is sad because I made a "soft" list on purpose. Tostig's list is reasonably competetive, apart form Halberdiers instead of swordsmen, but that doesnt really make too much of a difference.
I absolutely toasted tostig. He deployed his knights wrong, and effectively they werent even in the battle.
Managed to Harpy one cannon/wizard.
Once I got my knights and Hydra into combat it was over, and his other main block was paniced by that pieplate spell, and fled into the harpies behind.
We swapped armies because he conceded after 3 turns, and this time it was a little close. I was more proactive with the Empire, and managed to get a good charge fro Halberdiers onto the Cold one knights. Who then managed to hold me for 3 combat turns, (passed 2 break tests, and then excellent rolling to actually win a combat) before the Hydra joined in and I got mullered.
I conceded then as we were running out of time, but I think if we had played on I could have possibly killed the Hydra (3 wounds left, 2 cannons ready to shoot it) and the CoK, (handgunners and pistoliers).
I had already killed his DR, Harpies, sorceress, RXBmen and RBT.
so I might have scraped a draw, if we had carried on and with a little luck.
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unfortunate your brother got smoked. How long has he been playing?
I got in 2 games this weekend both were meant to be warm ups for the classic HKtourney which will be at easter.
My 1st list:
Crone Hellebron (I've converted and painted a model for her now, I'll post this or tomorrow evening).
Master - BSB with ASF banner, HA, Shield, SDC, Greatweapon
Master - 3xNull Talismans, HA, Shield, SDC, Greatweapon
Master - Ring of Hotek, Crimson Death, HA, Shield, SDC
4x Assassins - +d3 attacks, Killing blow, extra handweapon
3x10 bowmen (1 assassin in each)
10 shades - GW
5 witchevles
2x10 witchelves
Hydra
2x Bolt throwers
I first played Daemons which had this list:
Bloodthirster - re-roll combat attacks, flaming attacks, obsidian armour
Nurgle herald - on foot BSB with stubborn banner, ASL ability
2x10 horrors
40 plague bearers FC
2x5 hounds
6 hounds
2x5 flamers.
I was a little indecisive with my deathstar (10 shades, all characters, all assassins) and they only got 2 rounds of combat against the Nurgle block (which had turned to the side with the BSB out of combat so I couldn't take out the regen. I did 13 kills when I charged but in round 2 (his turn 6) I only scored 2 kills from 14 wounds and suffered 3 in return, so outnumber cause fear meant I fled, thankfully I ran far enough and rallied.
My solitary Hydra was a godsend and took out 2 units of Hounds while one unit of bowmen took out 5 wounds with sustained fire at the BT. But simply put I was unable to hurt the flamers and they were really nasty pretty much whiping out a unit each phase of the game.
At the end I had my deathstar 1/2 wound Hydra and a single BT for a total of 1635.
He had 1 block of 10 horrors, 1/2 horrors, both flamers, Nurlge wall and 1/2 BT. And yet I was 300vps ahead so a draw in my favour (I was only 35 away from a minor) I personally found this hilarious as I'd obviously been whooped to kingdom come yet came out better.
I decided to tweak my list slightly for my next game against High Elves (this Helf guy I'm coaching a little).
My tweaked list:
Crone
3x Masters as above (no SDC)
4x Assassins as above
3xbowmen
3x5 harpies
10 shades - GW
7 shades- GW
2x Hydras
Helf list:
Teclis
lv2 with ability to choose spells - fire magic
BSB with +d6 CR banner
Hero tooled for combat
2x10 bowmen
14 swordmasters - FC banner of sorcery (i think or this was in the white lions) 2x7
15 White lions - FC see above on banner of sorcery
6 Dragon Princes - FC, banner of ellyrion (BSB and Hero in here)
Tiranoc chariot
2x BT
2x Eagles
THis game was a bit of a slaughter and by T5 there wasn't a single high elf model left on the table. He actually managed to get off Vaul unmaking on the Deathstar and chose the ASF banner (he'd just chargde his white lions in) however my assassins still got to strike and they killed 9 incl. the champ so he didn't get any attacks and then Crone and the Masters whiped the rest of the unit out. By this time there was only 1 shade left and in shooting this shade died so I used the 8 characters as a unit for all intents and purposes with 2 masters charging off against the chariot (which broke and fled) while the other 6 hit his sword masters holding Testicles. The assassins again took out 6 of the front rank incl. Teclis (KB) Crone took 1 wound but then again by the time things were said and down all 14 Sword Masters lay dead on the ground.
The harpies were also good keeping the BT crews and Eagles busy. My bowmen got shafted alittle by the Dragon princes with 2 units and the unit of 7 shades pretty much fleeing, rally, fleeing from multiple cavalry charges until I got a Hydra into range that pinned them in place for Crone and 1 assassin to join the party. His combat T5 (I went first) I killed the last of the Princes and sealed the game.
So not bad for my panned tourney build. A few points I need to work on:
1. The army is quite slow (for delves) with no realy fast moving hard hitting units. I need to think about trying to stick some Dark riders in or tactics to play with as the Deathstar can only be in 1 place and as in the Helf game they had to choose between the Dragon Princes of his elite infantry.
2. The deathstar itself is very strong in combat, great magic defence (MR3, Crone dispel rule, Ring of Hotek but it suffers to shooting what with no armour or ward saves at all.
3. Contemplating swapping the BSB out for a Death Hag BSB so I can get a few more KB attacks but haven't decided yet.
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I was very long in the....let the other guy play whatever he likes to play team because there ALWAYS is a way to manage but seriously that deathstar is nasty.....4 assassins in one unit?! even in one army it is waacbeardycheese!
No fun to play against something like this all you have to do is move towards the most expensive enemy and kill it. You donīt even need hellebron it would be even better to get a highborn with the ring of half bs and ws and great weapon in a large unit of shades......ugly.
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Oh it's undoubtably ugly I make no excuses or try to hide that fact, there are things you can do about it however.
Even so. It's not something I intend to be playing for long. I'm going to try it out for the next 2 weeks just to tighten it up a little and then I'll leave it to the tourney before retiring it again. Fact is I enjoy my Cold ones too much.
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what happens if your shades get mortared/hellstormed?
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what happens if your shades get mortared/hellstormed?
exactly. Thats one of the issues I'm trying to work out. The army is more fragile then my regular Dark Elf list and Dark Elves in General are not very resistant to damage.
The shades are there to provide cover for 1-2 turns, if I'm able I can always jump ship to the other shade unit. In the High Elf game all the shades were dead and I had to use all 8 characters seperatly (didn't matter by that point) Using them seperatly has it's pros and cons.
The unit hits like a tonne of bricks but isn't very survivable (what with no save in the unit at all really...).
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Build a better army around it, harpies and dark riders on war machine hunting duty should do the trick the unit is impervious to small arms fire shootign, magic and close combat war machines being its only weakness (and a stank....whaaaaaam and a menetekel but that can be shot down by repeater crossbows and hiding in woods well they also can hide in the wood from a stank and get the charge).
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Well a stank would be nasty but I'd take it out with Crone in my round of combat.
TBH I'm not sure if it's worth it. Maybe the standard 15 BG with ASF and Assassin, Dragon Lord, a unit or two of COK would do the trick.
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I can't find my army book, but can you even have that many assassins? I thought they were limited to one per core infantry unit. Or was that only in my mind...
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rufus has a point... we shall be checking this so we shall when we get home.
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No such luck.
However...
"Each Dark Elf infantry unit may include a single assassin. See the Hidden rules for details."
The hidden rules don't say anything about limiting the number of assassins or the number of assassins that may be included in a unit.
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Each Dark Elf infantry unit may include a single assassin.
Well, that means that each unit can only have one assassin in it anyway.
I knew there was something like that.
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t12161991's post seems to suffer from cognitive dissonance. I like those two words.
Only one per unit, it's obvious and clear cut.
The hidden rules don't say anything about limiting the number of assassins or the number of assassins that may be included in a unit.
The age old "But the rules don't say I automatically win if I sing "Touch my tralala"" point comes to the fray.
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I can understand that point of view, but I'm just not entirely sure.
Certainly how I would like to play it though!
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How can you not be sure? It even says it!
Each Dark Elf infantry unit may include a single assassin.
Each Dark Elf infantry unit may include a single assassin.
Each Dark Elf infantry unit may include a single assassin.
Each Dark Elf infantry unit may include a single assassin.
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How can you not be sure? It even says it!
Each Dark Elf infantry unit may include a single assassin.
Each Dark Elf infantry unit may include a single assassin.
Each Dark Elf infantry unit may include a single assassin.
Each Dark Elf infantry unit may include a single assassin.
So ?
That merely means he cannot be married.
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You made my day Soth, for that service I commend and thank you. :lol:
:::cheers:::
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I need to clarify but I took that to mean only a single assassin can be hidden in the unit. Only 1 assassin is hidden in the Shades the other 3 are in the crossbowmen units and they bug over to the Shades T1 along with the 4 characters.
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Yeah, I'm not sure if that means in the beginning of the game, or if I'm reading too much into it (with that).
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Yeah that's legal as far as I can remember.
Still a pretty poor thing to do/way to play.
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Yeah that's legal as far as I can remember.
Still a pretty poor thing to do/way to play.
yes it is. As long as Iwhoop Thomas's butt (he's the guy with the slaaneshy lord using the Nurgle banner in a unit of Khornate knights and when wheeling manages to shift his unit 5" sideways at the same time...) then I'm happy. Like I've said (and am telling myself over and over) it is not going to be a regular thing.
I've already made and painted my Crone Hellebron model. I've made it from 2 mages so at the end of the day she can work as a 2nd On Foot sorceress as well. Unfortunately something is wrong with my camera and it won't let me load the pics onto my computer. Otherwise you'd have seen it already.
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Hence I think they will go away from that ...characters that take no character slots.
Also I donīt understand why for heavens sake manbane also modifies the armour save.
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I like the way they made the assassin a non-character character. It was the only way it makes them half worth taking. I think they should do the same with engineers.
But they should also be limited to one per army. That would help with the mean factor. And kinda makes sense.
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But they should also be limited to one per army.
They should indeed.
Also, I only have one...
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Well I donīt see a single army without an assassin so I think it worked for the DE but against all other armies.
It just lets me focus on heavy cav even more as they stand a chance not to loose every model in the first rank to an assassin after charging simple crossbowmen.
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Well I donīt see a single army without an assassin so I think it worked for the DE but against all other armies.
It just lets me focus on heavy cav even more as they stand a chance not to loose every model in the first rank to an assassin after charging simple crossbowmen.
Really? I never use them... and when I do (ok so not never, but nearly) they pop out, miss all their attacks and promtly fall over dead. Just like they used to. Course in fairness, the last time I tried it, I did try to take down the Theogonist.
Also, I only have one...
I barely have one! My shade champion is an assassin model, so I just use him if I need one...
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well i never used to include one (or 4) in my lists, none of them did till recently :engel:
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I so like the idea of them... but they are so squishy! It probably doesn't help that I don't like being too 'uber' in my selections so I don't always take the best combos or load a lot of points onto my characters.
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I've found assassins to be devastating or disappointing. All depends on the dice. I've had one take on and beat a unit of 30 clanrats by himself and run them down, and had one fail to kill a single skeleton warrior.
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I've found assassins to be devastating or disappointing. All depends on the dice. I've had one take on and beat a unit of 30 clanrats by himself and run them down, and had one fail to kill a single skeleton warrior.
so far it seems really to depend on how you've equipped them. If they're equipped to take out characters they seem to fail heavily in taking out unit guys and vice-versa. The +d3 attacks/KB seems to work well if not best as KB is always helpful and have 5-7 attacks (extra handweapon) is always helpful. But expensive.
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Against the theogonist? Volkmar or a "normal" Altar?
With manbane just pop him out and deal as much damage as possible against the chariot (hit on 3+ with Re-rolls that is 90 % hits) and wound on 3+ so 3-4 wounds convert 1-2 wounds after ward saves and that is against a most suboptimal target use him on crossbows and see how he shredders stuff that flanks the unit.
Also with his throwing stars and manbane he is the ultimate chariot buster.
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What's a normal altar?
I thought there was only one Theogonist...
I didn't tool him up to take on a war altar as I didn't know my brother would be taking one. And in the spirit of playing for fun I took on Volkmar rather than attack the chariot which seems a bit of a weird job for an assassin. I got all 7 attacks off and they all promptly bounced off his ward save, hehe. But hey that's what he's for! He bumped me on the head with that nasty staff of his and it was bye bye assassin.
Great matchup though.
I guess I fall into the somewhat silly camp of not wanting to spend all my points on assassin gear and having a lot of eggs all in one basket whilst finding that they are never hard enough to do the required damage. This is what happens when you tread the middle ground I suppose.
Anyway, to bring the story to a happy end, after my general nearly took out old Volkmar, (getting killed himself in the process), it was left to the Black Guard to rip his heart out. They're not bad at that.
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Using MANbane and shurikens on chariots is lame.
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Using MANbane and shurikens on chariots is lame.
Some douche bag went to town on my last night. "Go get skill and learn to play" kind of comments when I told him I played Dark Elves.
Really pissed me off the douche bag. Naturally he played highelves the cheap wanker so I took my Empire cav list and tore him a new one- sure it's a game and very petty but I felt good whiping his smile (along with his army) off the table with "mere humans"
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I am so sad that so many HE player have turned into wankers... :icon_cry:
Sort of makes me sad considering how I loved my Phoenix guards and spearelves in the 6th ed. But then, playing with PG and spears last ed was incredibly manly since it was about elves.
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I am so sad that so many HE player have turned into wankers... :icon_cry:
That would make a great Slaaneshy spell...
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I don't think high elves need any help from slanesh.
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Surprising that someone in HK said that ben.
What about Demon players? DE are probably 3rd in nastiest, and just about on a par with lizards.
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Surprising that someone in HK said that ben.
What about Demon players? DE are probably 3rd in nastiest, and just about on a par with lizards.
this guy claimed he wasn't a Hong Kong gamer =P
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but... he was gaming... in hong kong, right?
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but... he was gaming... in hong kong, right?
you see my point!
haha. Maybe next time he won't be a douche in forcing me to be a douche :engel:
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Really pissed me off the douche bag. Naturally he played highelves the cheap wanker so I took my Empire cav list and tore him a new one- sure it's a game and very petty but I felt good whiping his smile (along with his army) off the table with "mere humans"
I don't think it's petty. Well done! :::cheers:::
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Got another game of Dark Elves in today - I'm really enjoying these guys.
My list:
Lv4 - dark steed, black amulet, dark star cloak
Lv2 - powersone, dispell scroll
Lv2- 2xDS
BSB - Pendant (guess who rolled 2 6's on a 1-5 save?) Sword of might, all amour options, dark steed.
2x10 bowmen
6 dark rides - herald, musician, RXBs
15 black guard - FC, ASF banner
6 Cold Ones - FC, Standard of Slaughter
7 shades- Great weapons
Chariot
2x Hydras.
Against the unofficial Chaos Dwarf list.
BullCentaur lord - 6 str 6 auto wound atacks, 1+AS
mage dude with fire #4 bound spell lv5
mage dude with firewall bound spell lv5
BSB with greatweapon
25 warriors - bsb mage dudes in here, full command
2x10 warriors
3x10 blunderbus
2x20 hobgoblin archers
2x30 hobgoblin blocks
6 bolt throwers
organ gun substitute.
2x Earth Shakers
1x Death Rocket thingy.
Was a STRANGE game. I had turns 1-3 down pat, racing through his lines and taking out both 10man warrior blocks, both goblin blocks, the organ gun and bits and bobs.
His turn 4 I lost both Hydras, dark rdiers, assassin (KB+d3 attacks, EXH in shades) 1/2 my black guard, 1/2 the cold ones and 1/2 a unit of warriors. YEA heavy.
After that I was in survival mode. 2500pt game. He finished with 900 or so and I had 700 so it was a pretty bloody game! Lots of fun and I enjoyed my list alot even if nothing crazy Hong Kong Style :biggriin:
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Nothing crazy Hong Kong style? Your list seems like the very definition of it!
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Nothing crazy Hong Kong style? Your list seems like the very definition of it!
No, for 2500 it seems like just a tough DE list,
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Nothing crazy Hong Kong style? Your list seems like the very definition of it!
No, for 2500 it seems like just a tough DE list,
well ok, LESS crazy then my regular 2 lists. TBH I figured it wasn't that bad because while, like always, everything hit with a massive punch it was made up of very few units and very few men and Iwas running into a gunline...
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Me and a mate took 5 bloody hours to play a 3000pt game last night. Was lots of fun but 9.30pm-2.30am is just way too long.
Eitherway it was a fun game will report if you wish but I want to talk about my potential tourney lists and some theories I have on Delves.
My current character build for friendlies is a Dragon (I know he's not friendly but I love playing with him and he's one of my best painted models - plus I don't take pendant on him). BSB and Mage my competitive is 2 mages +dragon
My dragon equipment:
- Caledors Bane, Armour of Eternal Servitude and Ring of Hotek, shield/sdc
I was also playing around with this build for when I come up against Daemons (in case the BT had Armour of Obsidian) Dragon, lance, potion of strength, pendant, ha/shild/sdc
Both builds are around 560-570 points. I'm debating with myself in relation for my Lord. Now i love my dragon I find it hilariously fun and enjoy able to play with. But at 550+ pts it's quite pricey.
So I've thought this Lord out. Now my BSB (changing theme slightly) is usually on a Darksteed with sword of might and pendant. This guy has run into Grail knights (actually took a Grail Knight charge) and proceed to slice each and every night to death. Along with other similiar exploits. Part of the charm of this guy is that he can lose combat and with ld9 re-rolls he usually stays.
I was thinking of trying to capture this "annoyance" with my Dreadlord. Arming him with this:
Dark steed, Pendant, potion of strength, hydra sword, heavy armour, shield, sdc. This gives him a 1+/2+ AS (shooting/combat) the reverse ward and 5-7 attacks at str4 or str7 for 1 round of combat. Of course the main issue with this build is that he's not immune to psych so needs to test to charge things like daemons etc. now while he's ld10 it shouldn't matter there is always that 1 random die roll...
Now against say a unit of 25 swordsmen I should have 6 attacks (i'm also contemplating on using a Couldron in my list so this would be 7-8 attacks probably). Pop the potion I'll be str7. So 6 attacks, 3+ re-roll to hit = 5 hits, 2+ to wound = 4 wounds, no save. So he'd still loose combat by 1. and next round he'll only be str4 so 3+ to wound and no re-roll to hit so only 3 hits. hmm maybe not worth it. Then again I doubt I'd send him against ranked infantry like that more against units of heavy cav where he'd still kill 3-4 which should win him the combat. I could even stick him on a Dragon for some extra awesome but then he'd cost a bucket load again...
Anyway.
What do you guys thing of this list - abouts.
Dreadlord - Dark steed, ha, shield, SDC, pendant, hydra blade, potion of strength
BSB - dark steed, armour of eternal servitude, sword of might, shield, sdc
Death Hag - +d3 attacks, manbane, couldron
mage - lv1, 2xDS
2x10 bowmen
6 dark riders - herald, muso, rxbows (should i drop the rxbows?)
7 shades - great weapons
- assassin with AHW, manbane, rending stars
15 blackguard - Full command, ASF, ring of hotek
- assassin with AHW, +d3 attacks, killing blow (should I swap KB for manbane?)
Hydra
2xBolt throwers (new addition, I actually have 2 Hydras but I'm not liking how they work and I think 2 throwers would compliment my shooting nicely and also make heavy cav (warriors/brets) fear my list a little more.
I could probably modify the above and try and fit in a unit of 5 harpies as well?
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So I've said a few times theres a tourney coming up here in early May. I attend the last 2 years and came 18th and 12th with my Empire (should have come 8th so don't get me started)... This time I want to be in the top 10 and really I want to come away with the Big W.
So I'm running in with one of the nastiest lists I can think of. I've posted an earlier version of my list before but here is another version I've taken from reading Tales of Batle Aug2009 edition (I'm 1 of 3 people with a copy of this awesome magazine in Hong Kong).
I can't decide if I'm going to run a Dragon lord or stick the dreadlord on a Dark Steed (which would allow me to pick up a Couldron of blood). The main issues against the Darksteed is the fact I've spent so much time on my Dragon (which reminds me I need to update the pictures) and I only have a month to paint the rest of my damn army!
Option 1:
Dreadlord Dragon, hydra blade, pendant of kaleth, potion of strength, heavyarmour, shield, SDC
Master Dark Pegasus, BSB, Ring of Hotek, armour of darkness, lance,
Mage lv1, 2xDispel scrolls
Warriors x10 bowmen
Warriors x10 bowmen
Dark Riders x5, musician
BlackGuard x14 men Fullcommand, ASF banner
Assassin Manbane, +d3 attacks, AHW
Cold Ones x6 Full command, standard of slaughter
Shades x6, greatweapons
Assassin manbane, rending stars, AHW
Bolthrowers x2 (would need to buy these)
Hydra
Option 2:
Dreadlord Dragon, hydra blade, pendant of kaleth, potion of strength, heavyarmour, shield, SDC
Master Dark Pegasus, BSB, Ring of Hotek, armour of darkness, lance,
Mage lv1, 2xDispel scrolls
Warriors x10 bowmen
Warriors x10 bowmen
Dark Riders x6, musician
BlackGuard x14 men Fullcommand, ASF banner
Assassin Manbane, +d3 attacks, AHW
Cold Ones x6 Full command, warbanner
Shades x7, greatweapons
Assassin manbane, rending stars, AHW
Hydra x2
Option 3 - my current list:
Dreadlord - Armour of Eternal servitude, caledors bane, ring of hotek, dragon, shield, sea dragon cloak
Mage - lv2, 2xDS
Mage - lv2, 2xDS
2x10 bowmen
6 dark riders - musician, RBWs
7 shades - GW
Assassin - rending stars, manbane, AHW
15 blackguard - FC, ASF banner
Assassin - killing blow, +d3 attacks, AHW
6 Cold one knights - FC, standard of slaughter
2xHydras.
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List two
three terror causers....fast and deadly you donīt need those repeater bolt throwers. Big nasties (like a stank) are lunch for your Dragonlord and decent armoured folks will die to your myriads of crossbow bolts.
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Really?
That means i don't need to buy any new models just paint alot! Which is probably the lesser of two evils.
What about Bloodthirsters and things like that? Think the dragon can handle?
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so I tried out a new list today against two of the better players in the area. Naturally the base of the list is the same as it relies on my models.
Dreadlord - dark steed, hydra blade (+d3 attacks) Pendant of Kaleth, Postion of strength (+3str 1 round of combat), heavy armour, shield, sea dragon cloak (SDC)
Master - Dark steed, BSB, Ring of Hotek, Armour of Hag Graef (the 1/2 str shooting one) shield, sea dragon cloak, lance
Death Hag - manbane poison, +d3 attacks, couldron of blood
Sorceress - lv1, 2xDispel scrolls
2x10 crossbowmen, shields
6 dark riders - musician
2x5 cold one knights - musician
7 shades - great weapons
- Assassin, rending stars, manbane, AHW (this guy is an awesome monster/chariot killer)
14 Black Guard - Full Command, ASF banner
- Assassin, +d3 attacks, manbane, AHW (undecided if manbane or killing blow is the way to go. With KB he becomes an awesome character killer, with manbane he can shred medium/light infantry
2xHydras
So the list has a few more bodies on the able in the shape of a couldron and the 2nd set of Knights. It does loose the Dragon however which IMHO weakens the list somewhat (there is less "impact" now the Dragon is out and many people have many counters to Hydra's which are include due to the amount of Hydras/Nurgle walls/Bloodknights around all with Regen. Like my lizard player had a Scar Vet with a 20pt sword that gave a further - 2 to AS (so at str5 the scar vet gave -4AS...) w/ Flaming.
Anyway. List 1 was against VC
Vampire Lord - Abyssal terror, red fury, flaming lance, helm of commandment, 2+AS / 4+ward
Vampire - ghoulkin 4+AS, 5+ward, on steed, lv2
Vampire - ghoulkin, 3+ward against shooting, lv1, on steed
Wright - on steed, BSB, regen banner
3x15 ghouls
2x5 hounds
corpse cart - +1 to healing units, ASF bound spells
9 Black Knights - Flaming attacks or something
Black coach
Vargulf.
I got hammered this game, a lot had to do with dice rolls (Hydra failing to wound on a 3+ after getting 7 hits on the ghouls and I needed 2 kills to win combat...)
My lord went up against the Vargulf and while I popped potion (so to speak) I only managed to do 3 wounds to the beastie. In the next round of combat I lost (neither side getting any kills) and was promptly run down.
Nothing really went well for me which was a shame and the Abyssal Terror lord butchered the Blackguard in the space of minutes, 9 died in the 1st round of combat AND I CHARGED?! man me instantly miss my dragon - while I don't average 9 kills it does have the same effect! haha
The biggest highlight of the game was the Dark Riders who ran through a unit of hounds and overran into the Black Coach (with no buffs on it - was my turn1) I contemplated stopping short but decided to go for it anyway. Eitherway I got lucky and scored a wound on it. Over the next 4 rounds of combat I lost 3 of my 6 riders and scored no wounds back but kept winning combat (outnumber, flank compared to 1 kill) so slowly wittled it. Eventually I managed to make my 6+save and the coach lost by 2, failed both wards and crumbled!!
The 2nd game was against Lizardmen. I changed my list slightly and dropped the Hydra blade on my lord and instead put Caledor's Bane on him (lance +3 str, no scaly skin) this way I figured he'd have str 7 for 2 rounds plus scaly skin save is what the majority of lizards have...
Lizard list:
Lord Kroak
Skink priest - lv2, 2xDS engine of the gods
Skink priest - lv2, 2xDS engine of the gods
Scar vet - BSB with -4AS weapon and flaming attacks
4x10 skinks with javelins
2x4 terradons
25 Temple Guard - banner
1 razordon
1 slamander
This game I thought I had the bag and all the trophies. I played well and rolled pretty much exactly on average.
Then I found out Kroak was worth 600 vps...
highlights of this game would be:
Lord slowly battling down a unit of 10 skinks which refused to break (within Kroaks ld and bsb in range). He then went on to charge the Templeguard along with a Hydra, took out the Temple Champ in a challenge (his head now adorns my saddle - not really but it is a cool idea...). This unit was worth something like 365vps + 600 for Korak +250 for the BSB or so. So A LOT of points. Unfortunately I only got into it during turn 5. In 4 rounds of combat I managed to kill 21 Temple Guard + the BSB but there were still 4 left so 1/2 vps only and Kroak wasn't touched (I hate slann so much). In return I had lost the Hydra.
The black guard were rocked to death by Kroak. They got into the Salamander and an EToG and went about doing what Black Guard with +1 attack from the couldron does best...make sushi!
Unfortunately this then placed them next to the Templeguard (currently being slaughtered by my lord on crack) 2 rounds of magic 6" range 5+ to cast 2d6 str4 hits. Kroak could cast 2 of these on 2d6 PD a turn (he didn't want to risk higher as my Hotek BSB was in the Black Guard.
Eitherway the spells played a significant part in the death of my Hydra, was the only reason my lord took 2 wounds (he was out solo and hit by 9 hits and 12 hits in 1 damn turn...). Only the BSB survived surounded by the mangeled bodies of my Black Guard and one of the assassins.
Like I said I thought I had this. At the end of T6 I had
Dreadlord - 1/2 vps
BSB
Couldron
2x5 COK
10 crossbomen
1 table side
(hmm seems alot less now I think about it)
He had
Kroak (worth 600vps alone remember)
Temple guard 1/2
Razordon
1 terradon unit (3 terradons left).
1 unit of skinks with 2 models left
So close indeed I guess, actually we both ended at 1100 vps each (what was left + extras)
I think I played the list better and the lord made more sense in the 2nd game then the 1st. I'm hoping to try it out again on Tuesday. Thing is I took my dragon home to finish painting this evening and I REALLY like the model and it will be a shame not to bring it along. I'd also like to stick a couldron in though (I have a pot of boiling oil from the old siege set back in 5th ed + the classic war altar as a mobile pulpit for my death hag / crone helebron conversion).
Anyway any ideas on my list and other potential tricks/modifications would be appreciated!
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I may have need in the near future of a really nasty 1000pt list... the store near us is doing a challenge thing where if you spend $50 in one go on WH stuff, you can challenge them to a game and if you win you go into the hat and at the end of the month if you get pulled out, free battalion box! Downside is that the store gets to take 1500pts and you have to beat them, drawing isn't good enough. So far no one has managed.
I'm thinking something with 3 L2 Sorceresses, 2 Reapers, a couple of cheap core infantry shooty units and some GW wielding shades right now. The plan of course to blast anything that comes near me off the face of the planet.
It's either that or a hydra and ASF Black Guard killer combo but someone tried that last night and got a little stomped on...
I'm just musing right now incase I actually decide to go ahead and buy some stuff...
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What do you need to play against? Any ideas?
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Could be one of three things most likely...
High Elves, Ogres or Orcs and Goblins. Not the toughest armies out there I know, but Dark Elves are fragile and that many points coming at you can wear you down, hence the thinking behind trying to stay away from them :-P.
Thus far, I came up with this as a potential, no staying power whatsoever and barely any models, but it'll kick butt in the magic and shooting phase.
L2 Sorceress on Steed: Pendant of Khaeleth, Tome of Furion
L2 Sorceress: Focus Familiar
L2 Sorceress: Darkstar Cloak
10 Warriors with champ & mus
10 Crossbowelves
6 Shades: g.w, l.a
Reaper
Reaper
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dude
go nasty as all hell...
Highelves could be an issue but Ogres - O&G...
BSB- pendant, sword of might, ha, shield, sdc = 177
Mage - lv1, 2xds (general) - 185
2x10 bowmen - 200
hydra - 175
5 shades - 80
-assassin, rending stars, manbane - 145
= 962 so you could bump the shades or give them GWs as well.
OR
actually yours is really nasty... but make it 2 units of bow elves
drop focus familiar for a dispel scrolls or something like that, in case heavy magic.
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How heavy magic could the high elves go? I've only faced them a couple of times.
I'm thinking that they'd probably not go near as magic heavy as me. Probably two mages at most. Don't think they'd expect to face 3 at 1000pts! Hehe.
How does your list work? I mean obviously hydra is just nasty but what does the BSB do there?
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I came up with another list too, though it is delicate if I face magic, but nasty in combat and would go against everything I believe in by using a SC. ::heretic::
18 Black Guard with Kouran: Standard of Hag Graef
Master: G.W, H.A, S.D.C, Pendant of K, Null Talisman
10 Corsairs
10 Warriors
Hydra
Chariot
5 Harpies
Unbreakable black guard with a Master to hold up whatever nasty might come in challenges whilst Kouran dishes out the pain, all at ASF just seems lovely to me. Course depending on the situation I might let Kouran field the challenge. I just see my general as surviving longer if I somehow fluffed attacks whilst Kouran should leave no one standing before him each turn to get at him. Slap in a hydra and a chariot for yikes factor and it seems pretty scary to me.
Only serious problem is magic, but that could well go the hydra's way and I should at least be able to deflect the most potent spell if it comes at the unit with the null talisman. The harpies will shield me for a turn maybe anyway and by then I'll be halfway across the board.
I'm not sure which list would be more fun but I'd most like take them both and try and see exactly what I might be facing before going one way or t'other...
Only provlem
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the BSB is AWESOME!
So he has a 1+/2+ AS and pendant so he's pretty much immune to shooting and pretty solid in combat. 3 str5 attacks means he should get 1-2 kills a turn, banner = 1CR and re-roll his ld if he looses combat.
18" means he crosses the table very quickly. He's perfect against Orcs as you can have him charge the warmachines turn 2 and he'll usually win. Last game against orcs I was up against 1 doom diver, 1 stone thrower and 4 spear chukkas. In 6 turns he took out the doom diver and 3 spear chukkas ( this may not equal his points but it certainly halts the orcs shooting offensive).
In 2 games against bretonians he's gone up against a unit of 6 grail knights alone and spent the game hacking all the knights to pieces (killing 1 per round as he was in challenge each and every round)
I've also been trying him out recently with Ring Of Hotek, 18" and horse means he can usually fit between infantry blocks and hide out of LOS while keeping enemy mages within 12" range.
I used to get looks like I was crazy when I threw my bsb into the middle of the table all alone. Nowdays they just try to block or bring him down with weight of fire and he's only died twice in the 5-6 games I've played him in.
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Ah ok, I see, I didn't realise he'd be mounted. That's a very interesting tactic and I'm gonna have to use it sometime...
As it is I sometimes like to use the St7 lance missile or the annoying lifetaker guy. Having them in an 18" move is such a pain for people!
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I recommend trying him out.
The other build I'm testing is a common item set but on a darksteed.
Dreadlord with +3str lance, Potion of strength, pendant on dark steed.
Idea being less of a target then a dragon character, less "cheesy" for those who care about that :engel:
can still scoot around quite quickly, join units etc.
and he can be str7 for 2 rounds which is great against Lizardmen as he'll always use his lance so no scaly skin save (steggies and saurus much!) and give him an extra attack via a couldron and he can deal out some serious damage.
However in terms of sheer fun a Dragon lord is the best character I've ever played with.
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Biggest hole in that list is the generals leadership is a whopping 8. Excuse bad typing/punctuation- posting from cell.
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Biggest hole in that list is the generals leadership is a whopping 8. Excuse bad typing/punctuation- posting from cell.
No problem. What are you in jail for ?
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Which list? The three witches one? :-P
In which case, yes indeed. My plan would be to take no panic tests... ok, I might have to take a few but guess I'd have to hope for the best on that front. Having played as Beasts for the last few weeks, using a shaman general, it would feel rather large...
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Soth- lol. Should have said "mobile" I suppose.
The three mave list has that problem s does the other one as a BSB can't be the general. But I suppose leadship 8 looks pretty stellar next to beasts :)
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Soth- lol. Should have said "mobile" I suppose.
The three mave list has that problem s does the other one as a BSB can't be the general. But I suppose leadship 8 looks pretty stellar next to beasts :)
Yea but the idea is not to take tests. You pick off the things that can hit you from afar and take them out T1 and T2 (with the mage list this is mass magic missiles, with the BSB this is a turn 2 charge into the Artillery!)
siberius,
I would be VERY wary of going character heavy to be honest, at 1000pts adding characters can really take your points and 3 mages is around 400pts for 6 t3 wounds, no save. Not the best investment.
Even to 1500 I usually only play with 2 characters (yet I'll always take 4 at 2500...)
What about:
Lv1 mage - 2xDispel scrolls : 150
2x10 bowmen (because imho these are as obligatory as cannons for empire): 200
5x dark riders: 85
5xCold one knights : 135
5xCold one knights : 135
5xShades - 80
Assassin - rending stars, manbane - 150
Hydra - 175
=935 nets you 65 to play around with.
fast mobile, hard hitting, what more you want?!
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Yea but the idea is not to take tests. You pick off the things that can hit you from afar and take them out T1 and T2 (with the mage list this is mass magic missiles, with the BSB this is a turn 2 charge into the Artillery!)
That's assuming a perfect table of terrain (hills all in your favor, etc.), and the opponent actually lets you pull of your, shall we call them, shenanigans.
Relying on magic to make or break the game in the first two turns doesn't always work out the way you would like it to.
And assuming that your opponent leaves their warmachines out in the open, yes it is likely that you will get that charge off. But if you cannot break away any screens there are sitting in front of those machines, you're another turn or two away from engaging them.
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Hey
OK 8th is coming, and we delf players should get a cut of Counts T talking shop.
Mr. D and I were giggling like 13yr old girls while discussing our potential lists a few nights back.
I'm pretty much 100% sure I'm having a unit of 30 Black Guard in a 10x3 formation. Thats a whopping 41 attacks which at I6 should strike first. I plan on having a dedicated cauldron to buff the unit out either with +1 attack (for 72 - assuming the buff works for 2nd/3rd rank) or Killing Blow.
I'm also contemplating a unit of 30 Executioners with dedicated cauldron (so 2 cauldrons). My main issue is for these guys to be truely awesome they still need ASF banner. Which takes up my BSB choice.
4 bolt throwers, 2 hydras, 2 chariots will round out my special and rare.
Characters I'm not so sure on. I'd love to incl. my Dragon lord but we're looking at 575 from 750 so no 2 lords which is a shame. Hero wise definitely a BSB and another fighty hero i'm undecided if I want to ignore magic and go for a flying circus (manticore/pegasus heros) and just play a very hard and fast army or if I should invest in 2-3 lv1's. considering our masters are dirt cheap but our mages are relatively expensive it's a hard trade-off.
Anyway what are your thoughts and plans for 8th?
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Mr. D and I were giggling like 13yr old girls while discussing our potential lists a few nights back.
You may have been giggling like a girl, I was having a hearty chuckle.
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I'm pretty sure you were giggling. Aloing with your 2x40 spear blocks and 2 units of 10x2 bowmen...see I'm giggling now!
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This is because you are thick.
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This is because you are thick.
compared to a tired sarcastic old cranky fool such as yourself?
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Compared to a donkey. Comparisons with one such as myself, as you so aptly described, are unfathomable.
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your mum's unfathomable.
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Yeah, my response to that would only be allowed in Back Table. Though we are making this thread resemble that... bad us.
I'm going to go eat now.
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your fault for not talking dark elves.
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Any consideration for Witch Elves / Corsairs?
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Corsair's imo will still be too expensive to be worth taking. Witchelves are a definite possibility. 7x2 (all my infantry will be 7 wide at least) is looking at 28 poison attacks which could shred medium/light armour. I don't know the pts of witchelves off by heart but I'm of the opinion Black Guard still are amazing and points/effectiveness will still be worth taking lots of (and I can take multiple units of these suckers and not need to bump'em up with ASF to be awesome).
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I dislike both Corsairs and Witch elves. Witch Elves will murder a unit, then die to the return attacks. Corsairs are just meh compared to spearmen and taking into account points cost.
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Exactly. For witchelves to be effective they're going to have to be in massive units because MSU won't work for them and t3 no save... so you're looking at alot of $$$ as well.
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I disagree....corsairs are not that bad.
With handcrossbows they can dish out great amounts of small arms fire and have compared to witch elves a 4+ armour save against missles and 5+ armour save in close combat.
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tbh i think maybe with hand crossbows in a 5x2 formation so they're cheap (100pts - compared to the equivalent 16 spearmen...) may work as decent flankers. The issue fandir is they're 10 pts. Not as good as crossbowelves at 10pts and not as numerous as spearelves at 6pts.
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But they are decent at both things if you look at lothern sea guard you can see a unit that is utter rubbish.
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Maybe my large-ish unit of crossbowmen won't be as stupid under the new rules.
Also, I think my issues with the core choices are solved if I don't have to take three units. I can just have two expensive units to make up the points. Assuming I can ever get around to painting the rest of my stuff.
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Assuming I can ever get around to painting the rest of my stuff.
Never going to happen.
Fandir, remember, I'm thinking in the context of the Dark Elf book and points costings in it. For other books Corsairs would rock, but in the Dark Elf one, clearly overpriced. :engel:
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Damn you talking logic here...ok so what about the models they look fantastic. :happy:
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I thought I liked the corsairs, but I actually don't very much. They have nice crossbows and an awesome squid-standard-top, but they are otherwise too spikey and annoying.
I must finish my cold one unit. Probably a big unit of those will also be good under the new rules.
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The flow of their capes is so bloody uniform it angers me.
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I just can't muster any enthusiasm to paint them. And I only have ten.
Are shades rubbish now?
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yes they are :happy:
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They're no longer useful with Great Weapons. Good thing I never used them with Great Weapons.
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Mine only have ambiguous great weapons. That is, the ludicrously large swords that most dark elves have. Also, they are actually corsairs.
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well i have 20 bowmen and 20 corsairs. Am thinking of converting the Corsairs to be a 2nd unit of Bowmen.
2x20 bowmen, 30 spearmen, 30 executioners, 30 black guard... not too bad
shades may still be good for a Razor assassin bunker because majority assassin builds become useless except as 1 use only character assassins. Razor assassins will still hurt chariots and monsters. I'm yet to read the 8th scout rules but True LOS may be an issue.
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well they can march 10 " and shoot their crossbows with their ridiciously high ballistic skill....
Why shouldnīt we grant the engineer a Bs of 5....well it is like....godlike and therefore doesnīt fit on a hero choice....lets hand it out to elite units.
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so on druchii.net they're worried black guard will be nerfed...
oh and i was reminded BG are only a 5-20 unit (until the errata fixes that - knock on wood).
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this is a reply i just posted on druchii...look at those executioner numbers....
"20 black guard is NOT expensive its 295 pts
40 empire spearmen, assuming they have shields would be 260.
31 attacks = 23.25 hit = 15.345 wound = (using spears so 5+AS before modifiers) = 12.8898 dead so on average 13 kills.
So that 41 back now drops to 28 strike back.
28 attacks = 14 hits = 7 wound = 4.62 dead so on average 5.
We win combat. OK they're going to be testing on unmodified ld so ld7 woopi do-da (I'm yet to read psych to check if they can use a character or general leadership).
either way there won't be many spearmen left after 2 or so rounds of combat.
By average the Empire killed 25% of your black guard. While the black guard killed 32.5% of the Empire infantry. Thats not too shabby.
Just say for example you've got a cauldron running (I sure as hell will be).
Your kills will go to 17 kills on average.
You losses will go to 3.7 so 4 BG killed.
17 kills over 50% of the unit. He's not going to be stubborn for long now is he.
That said Empire infantry was a poor choice - as you mention- because contrary to popular opinion Empire won't be about the infantry. It will be about the outriders and cannons and helstorms, they're going to be a gunline army of awesome magnitude (looking forward to using all my arty and outriders again).
Hell I figure 3 formations of 5x2 outriders with no upgrades. pre-game they move 6" to get into range. T1 they fire at the same unit you're looking at about 13-15 chaos warriors killed and entire units of Chaos knights. Our unit of 20 black guard will suffer 19.6 casualties TURN ONE!
Shocked
Back on topic though.
I'll be playing 3-4000pt games so dropping 300 for a unit of BG isn't a big deal plus a nekkid hag on cauldron also not a big deal.
The thing about BG now is they are perfect at taking on Horde infantry. They can throw out far more kills then they will receive (which is made up by the limited unit size) they're unlikely to break till they are all killed and while you're throwing 10+ models down a turn for 5> the ratio is going in your favour.
they won't stand against high T or high AS units.
Which is where our Executioners come in. But to me so far looking for Executioners to be worth it they need some form of better save so they strike back or they need ASF in some manner. I mean giving them a hag with ASF banner and +1 attack will be nasty. Against your spearman example we're looking at 10x3 formation = 41 attacks with buff. = 25.83 kills.
but naturally 10x3 executioners, hag bsb, hag cauldron is getting mighty costly.
But then they can go up against a block of warriors and will be killing 14.3 warriors (assuming warriors using HW/Shield and don't have MoT so only 6+ parry ward save not 5+).
I dunno from talk around my area warrior units will be 14 (7x2) to 20 (10x2) taking out 14 seems quite decent to me.
Also from what I understand 8th appears to be a bloodbath game and one where you need to really combined and join various units/abilities in the list together."
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So, I'm off for a few games of 1000pts at the LGS with my Dark Elves:
I'm basically taking this to see how good we really are in combat...
Dreadlord: 2hw, h.a, s.d.c, sh
12 Black Guard inc com
12 Witch Elves inc com
25 Spears inc com
10 Dark Riders inc mus
Reaper
If I remember right, my hag has manbane, which means if I put my Lord in the Spears, I'll have a decent fighting character in each infantry unit. I also gave my Lord the potion of strength in the hope he meets up with some other toughies. Initiative 8 and then 5 str 7 attacks rerollable should be fairly nasty even if it's just for one turn.
Wish me luck, or if you hate dark elves, quite the opposite. I shall report back later.
:icon_twisted:
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Alrighty then.
So I first faced off against Lizards.
Skink Priest L2 (with extra spell)
15 Saurus Spears
15 Saurus Spears
Scar Veteran with annoying -1 to hit sword
Chameleons
Stegadon with giant bow
We were fighting the meeting engagament scenario which I didn't realise at first, but it was certainly interesting.
I got slaughtered though. There was nothing on my army that could really do enough damage in combat, save maybe my lord. Even though I struck first in every combat, they just had so much high toughness and so much high strength that it always went bad for me.
One reaper was not enough to take out the stegadon anymore, especially seeing as it's no longer +1 for large target, which I'll admit is a bit weird. You'd think in the same way it's harder to hit a single character or skirmishers, it would be easier to hit something the size of a small house...
Saurus are just horrible for Dark Elves. Not sure how I'm going to combat that... and I need to cos we have 2 Lizard players close by...
Second game was vs Skaven:
Bomb Load of Slaves
20 Storm Vermin with stormbanner
Hero fellow
Pit Abomination
This one went a lot better. The lack of toughness meant my black guard were suddenly carving stuff up. My spearmen faired better too, getting in combat with the abomination and slaves. Man that thing is horrible. It took out a whole bunch of them, but I took out half it's wounds the first round with my general's potion of strength (a good buy when you have 5 rerollable attacks). I managed to fluke three more wounds the next turn and scared the slaves into killing themselves. Then all that was left were the stormvermin and they were much easier to dismantle.
So I can't say I felt confident about how the day went. The witch elves didn't seem any less vulnerable than last edition. They may just have to be fielded with the cauldron for the additional protection. The black guard were good, but fell to easily against tough foes. Spearmen are always decent with that cheapness. Even the reaper seems a bit worse off now... making me want to try out the hydra again... dark riders are almost more of a liability than a plus point as to use them for good flank attacks you need 10 of them and it's too many points for too vulnerable a unit. May have to just take a small unit of knights instead and rely on wounds rather than disruption.
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I just killed some Skaven with my Dark Elves, it was fun.
To be fair, first turn, I move forward 4 inches and snipe his grey seer with spirit leech, made the game go very easy from that point.
Infact, my level 4 cast 2 spells the entire game, that spirit leech, and the "Everyone within 24 has -1 toughness and strength" spell just before I hit him with all my combat blocks.
List was something like:
50 Spear
20 Xbow
10 Cold Ones
20 Black Guard
War Hydra
Supreme Sorceress lvl4
Death Hag, Cauldron, BSB
His Grey Seer had Plague, which scared the hell out of me, especially when I had a unit of 50 spearelves. So he had to go.
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Hurrah, I finally found this thread!
I'm thinking about resurrecting my dark elf army, and I'm wondering what people use these days. Can you play without having to bring giant units of spearmen (or any other infantry)?
I basically have:
lots of characters, some riding things
16 crossbowmen
10 corsairs
6 dark riders
10 cold one knights
9 shades
hydra
bolt thrower
Oh dear, that looks rather pathetic really.
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None of that is bad. The corsairs may be a bit pathetic but you could I suppose use them as a kind of chaff type unit on a flank or something.
Infact, most of that seems to be chaffy. But if you pop a couple of characters in the cold ones and run it with the hydra, that could be your hitty stuff and just use the other stuff as re directors and harassers. Obviously it's not a very big army right now, but you could use it fine in smaller games.
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lots of characters, some riding things => the fewer, the better - one sorceress is minimum - BSB either COB or CO-mounted. Pegasus character very useful. Dragonlord nice. Assassin (with stars) nice with shades.
16 crossbowmen => with muso, very nice. With FC and shields, they can make a decent auxiliary combat unit.
10 corsairs => with RHB, muso = fun to play. With FC, SSS, you'd need more of them (~25).
6 dark riders => excellent unit, with muso. RXB useful (esp. since you lack core pts).
10 cold one knights => FC, excellent unit in current meta. You could alternatively play them 2 x 5 "vanilla" (muso) if you wish to go MSU.
9 shades => excellent unit, esp. with AHW.
hydra => some opponents still find this monster OP, wonder why?
bolt thrower => overpriced.
I second Siberius.
The only real combat unit is provided by the large COK, but that's all eggs in one basket. If you can run a dragonlord as well, that's much better.
You'd need quickly to increase corsairs to 20-25, FC, AHW, SSS banner.
If you want to play your army MSU style, rather than big blocks, it is possible.
In that case, consider up to 2 spell casters and the COB to enhance any unit engaged.
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As a sidenote, I'd like to advertise for Druchii.net, recently overhauled, and with a renewed, smaller team.
You might find it friendlier than what you used to think.
See in particular Good MSU links (http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=72079#p867305)
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I played a similar list - with tons of magic, crossbows, bolt throwers and a couple counter-charge units(hydra, cold one knights) to intercept incoming (and hopefully depleted) foes.
It was pretty hit or miss though. I did win a couple local tournaments, but the list couldn't outshoot Dwarfs and didn't have enough firepower to stop an Ogre deathstar list.
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Have you changes druchiiii so it isn't black background?
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The only real combat unit is provided by the large COK
That's what she said.
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:icon_lol:
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Have you changes druchiiii so it isn't black background?
It's still a dark background but it's a lot nicer to look at. More purply, less contrasty.
I was ok with the cost of reapers until that high elf book just came out :-P. Can't wait for the druchii one to put them down to 70pts too. Totally worth it!! There's always a chance we'll be out soon too...
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I think plastic Witch Elves would make me want to revamp my Dark Elves. I want to do something really different, you know?
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Lots of witch elves is brutal too!
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Yeah, the plan would be to throw around tons of attacks, hopefully with the enemy's stats debuffed through Shadow magic.
If the High Elf book is any indication, they'll leave us with the same crappy spearman/xbowman kit. The hydra will be either nerfed in favor of a new never-before-seen monster or made into a dual kit. Ditto for the Cauldron. The line could definitely benefit from some splash releases, ala the way they gradually updated the High Elf elites to plastic.
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True, I hadn't thought about how much was still not plastic...
Dark riders, black guard, executioners, witch elves, shades, hydra, cauldron, reaper.
Quite a lot!
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I've seen some dark elf players recently spamming tons of harpies to hunt machines or as chaff. It either works really well, or it really doesn't.
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Why wouldn't they? They are cheap as chips and capable of killing most things that aren't dedicated close combat units.
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Why wouldn't they?
They hit walls when facing armies like Ogres, Daemons, and WoC?
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I forgot I posted in here! Thanks for the advice!
I've discovered I have six executioners. Is it worth trying to get some more and making a unit of them? They look a bit weak compared to black guard.
How about manticores? I have one of those.
I do have a cauldron of blood, so could use that. And, in fact, I have a dragon as well. I just don't have many troops.
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Personally I have had very little success with small units of executioners. Just the whole attack last with no resilience makes so much stuff kill most of them before they do anything.
Manticores, not maybe the best but I have had success now and again. I like to stick the super lance on the rider and smash into things, but truth be told, pegasus is much better. But if you aren't a power gamer, why not! I rarely use it due to the potential of instant cannon death, but it does very well when no cannons are present.
Cauldron rocks, it can help any unit make up for it's weakness. For instance if you want to use those executioners, throw the 5+ ward on them. A few more might survive then!
I like harpies but they always die or run away. I don't know how anyone is killing anything with them, but good work! I use thrm for blocking, war machines or clearing up fleers.
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Personally I have had very little success with small units of executioners. Just the whole attack last with no resilience makes so much stuff kill most of them before they do anything.
They can be nice with the ASF banner so they strike at I, but as soon as they lose that bonus they drop dramatically in effectiveness. And that banner is only justified in cost if you play a big block of 'em.
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Execs are hardly any playable until you get 30 of them or more.
In such large unit, they are nice with the DH BSB carrying ASF, of course, but they can also perform without.
A COB nearby is definitively a great help, for 5++ earlier, and doubling the attacks later.
Manticore are consensually said to be kept for non-competitive games.
Harpies rock, but not for killing anything but the weakest warmachines. What they do best is to interfere with enemy's movement & shooting.
COB and dragon behave well within competitive armies.
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Personally I have had very little success with small units of executioners. Just the whole attack last with no resilience makes so much stuff kill most of them before they do anything.
They can be nice with the ASF banner so they strike at I, but as soon as they lose that bonus they drop dramatically in effectiveness. And that banner is only justified in cost if you play a big block of 'em.
Ai, but the issue is having to use the death hag bsb to take it and she is pretty squishy. Not the end of the world, but it is suckong more and more points into a very expensive unit.
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Is there any point in executioners, given that black guard exist?
Although, normal GW procedure would be to nuke the black guard and improve executioners in the next book, so maybe it's worth planning ahead.
Is the cauldron of blood able to move now? I'm not sure if the updated rules in the errata allow it to or not.
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CoB can move indeed. It's actually not all that bad if it ends up in combat mostly as it pumps out lots of attacks from the witches and has ward saves... good place to stick your bsb too, especially if you plan on not getting it in combat. It can't charge so I'm not exactly advising throwing it in there. Just not the end of the world if it gets engaged.
Who knows what they will do with the units next book. I am fully expecting kraken chariots.
Yes, part of the problem with executioners is black guard just being on the whole better. But much like the old halberdiers vs swordsmen debate, if you aren't too worried about everything being uber uber, take what you feel like! I often don't take either! Lots of other choices that just seem to work better for me, including the dreaded spearmen horde of doooom!
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I am fully expecting kraken chariots.
I really hope so! :icon_eek:
The problem I have is that I don't want lots of infantry, because that would be exactly the same as my Empire, Dwarf and Orc armies... just elfier. I don't see the point of that!
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Black Guard is limited to 20 dudes per unit, isn't it? That is a pretty serious drawback nowadays!
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Then do a all cav army
cold one chariots...knights lots of dark riders lord on Dragon!
Boooooom!
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Chariots suck, surely! Also, there isn't even a model.
Black Guard is limited to 20 dudes per unit, isn't it?
The next book will drop that restriction for sure!
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Yes very likely so...chariots are not that bad really...but too expensive I guess the new dark elf book will make those cheaper.
But Cold one Knights are good...they are S4 base...
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The knights are good... but the cold ones themselves are surprisingly bad. A chaos horse is better! Especially now that they don't benefit from hatred. Big scary dinosaurs should be fightier.
You still don't get to use their toughness, right? That change was just for monstrous cavalry?
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Yes ...I think!
And they still have S4 and of course chaos horseys are better.
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I expect better stats in the next book!
They do cause fear, I suppose, but that's not such a big deal.
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Chariots are interesting, not the least for being very, very sturdy.
COK and COC are stupid, which is more a help than a liability (at Ld9 rerollable) cause it makes them ITP too.
Lack of model is the most annoying.
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Ah, good point about them being immune to psychology! I forgot that.
The chariot certainly needs a new model. Also, new dark riders please!
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I think you can run a fairly reasonable army with monsters, dark riders, knights and a few other bits like shades or harpies.
Highly mobile, almost play more like a wood elf feel. Trying to avoid combat with most stuff and just hit home when you wqnt. Probably do it better than wood elves right now sadly.
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http://gamezoneminiatures.de/startseite/dunkelelfen-leichte-kavallerie-regiment.html (http://gamezoneminiatures.de/startseite/dunkelelfen-leichte-kavallerie-regiment.html)
Gamezone dark riders??
Darkelf chariot?
http://gamezoneminiatures.de/media/catalog/product/cache/6/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_6220.jpg (http://gamezoneminiatures.de/media/catalog/product/cache/6/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_6220.jpg)
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Nice minis there, although the girl in the pointy hat looks a bit out of place!
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She is also naked.....I too donīt really know what is up with that I think she is the musician.
(http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/images/uploads/gamezone/GZ-06-39.jpg)
sure it is raising morale...but still.
The regular riders are very nice though...and available in the gamezone plastic so not that expensive
(http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/images/uploads/gamezone/GZ-06-21.jpg)
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Hmm, they look OK. Fat horses!
I don't approve of the sexist musician.
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They're expensive and I don't like the cold ones.
the plasticresin blaggards on the other hand, 25 euros for 30. HELL YES PLEASE
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So, executioners: nice models, except... the sword blades are separate castings! :icon_evil:
Why! It's impossible to stick them on.
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This is not a joke.
If you want them to last, you have to pin them with really thin rods.
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The solution sounds worse than the problem!
I did eventually glue them on, but it's terrible design to divide the models like that. Leave a larger contact area!
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The solution sounds worse than the problem!
I did eventually glue them on, but it's terrible design to divide the models like that. Leave a larger contact area!
Good luck with that, you're gonna need it.
My buddy's main army is DE and he stopped using execs because the blades came off repeatedly in spite being careful.
Then he pinned them and they are often seen now days swinging their stuff on the table.
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I only have a small number of them. I wasn't going to get more because they suck rules-wise, and after seeing how hard it is to attach the blades I have two reasons not to bother!
They do look nice though.
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Powergamer!
In fairness, I rarely take them either!
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It did occur to me that I could make more executioners from normal dark elf warriors, since they look basically the same. But it's not worth the effort.
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I have a bunch of swordmasters from island of blood that I keep considering using as the back ranks of my executioners. Would take me from 12 to 22 but I'm not sure it's worth it unless you go all the way to 30 and horde up...
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I thought about doing that too! Swordmasters and executioners are basically the same thing.
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Yup. I did a little comparison in my dark elf thread... hang on...
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/ExecutionerAlternative.jpg)
I just switched out his blade for a corsair one. I don't really care about the scale plate either. Sure it's different, but I don't think it's gonna stand out that much, especially if I keep them out of the front rank.
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Cool stuff siby.
Rufus, wanna share some iob? Maybe
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Wow, they look more similar than I thought! You can't tell them apart at first glance.
They look good!
Rufus, wanna share some iob? Maybe
I want the elves, but not all those skaven!
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It definitely helps to see them painted the same, if you know what I mean. I was skeptical till I did that.
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Wow, they look more similar than I thought! You can't tell them apart at first glance.
They look good!
Rufus, wanna share some iob? Maybe
I want the elves, but not all those skaven!
Do you want all the elves, or just sword masters?
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Do you want all the elves, or just sword masters?
I like the cavalry guys too, but don't really need them. Not bothered about the seaguard or characters. I guess I'd want the swordmasters most.
What would we do with the rats though? Bit of a hassle to sell them.
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Wow, they look more similar than I thought! You can't tell them apart at first glance.
This.
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Black dragon egg. 30 points, one use, use at start of any turn. Character is T6 and has a S4 breath weapon until end of turn.
This sounds a lot more useful now that you can actually use both effects at once (because breath weapons work in combat). Good on a pegasus captain maybe? Charge in at T6 and do a breath attack?
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Yes or just fly next to a unit and fry an infantry horde with a template...it would be T7 though as peggy heroes are T4 now and 3 wounds.
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works pretty good with sorceresses on foot as well.
it would be T7 though as peggy heroes
Dont think so Fandir, it's just T6 not +T3
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Gothpixy magical items....so insanely good.
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Indeed... the weapons are not THAT good, but the magic and protection stuff is absolute first rate.
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new book will say good bye to that
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No rush though...
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Is it not rumoured quite soon?
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yep, late 2013 or early 2014 some say... not really excited about it!
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They should update skaven first!
Gothpixy magical items....so insanely good.
Actually, only some of them are good. They have a lot of mediocre or actively bad items. This egg thing was terrible until the breath weapon rules changed!
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indeed,
and brets, dwarfs and wood elfs
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It was great at 7th already...how many 20 mm infantry guys do you get under the template? Roughly 30 against T 3 6+ armour save that are 20 dead. Not bad for 30 points.
Lots of very good items in there power dice generators, dispel dice, extra spells I think, best ward save in game...ward save that causes wounds executioners axe is rather good with the amazing ASF banner, some other good banners, miscast item....lots of candy in there and the mediocre items are about on par with the stuff in other books.
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It was great at 7th already...how many 20 mm infantry guys do you get under the template? Roughly 30 against T 3 6+ armour save that are 20 dead. Not bad for 30 points.
Partial hits.
I didn't say there were no good items, I said there are also a lot of bad items. You could cut half of them out of the book and no one would even notice.
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7th edition introduced the touching you hitting you template rule. I think.
Well it was the same with all pre 8th edition books and in all 8th edition books there are no items anyone ever takes...
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7th edition introduced the touching you hitting you template rule. I think.
No, only skaven used it in 7th. Skaven always get to break the rules.
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You sure...wasnīt that the reason that Empire Mortars were insanely good?
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Mortars were bad until 8th edition!
They're only bad again now because the new army book nuked them.
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I think you are right..sorry my bad.
:biggriin:
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Dark Elves do indeed have some very tasty items, but of the 46 on offer, I only take on a semi regular basis... less than 15. But those 15 are all very nifty. I'd go with Rufus that you could lose half of them and not even blink. I think my favourite, and ironically I never take it, is the Black Amulet. Been around since I started playing in 5th. I find it hard to justify the points cost when it sits right next to the pendant of Khaleath. I hope they keep it rather than the pendant though. Bouncing wounds back is a fun trick.
Anyways, I have a 2400 point game tonight vs my brother and that makes it enough points to finally whip out the dragon! Haven't taken that beast for an edition or two! If he runs Empire I don't expect it to last past the first turn, which would be a little anticlimactic...
But for a bit of fun, I decided to go for a speed freak army to accompany it. Something along the lines of:
Dreadlord on Dragster
Master on Peggy
Sorceress on Steed
Cauldron BSB
2 units of Dark Riders
Harpies
30 Corsairs with the run fast banner
6 Cold Ones
2 Chariots
(Shades?)
Hydra
Not sure where that will leave me points wise, looks a bit small so far, but there is a lot of points sinks in there. Of course if I had the models (well I do, but they aren't painted!) I'd bump up my knights and run 2 hydras and a load more dark riders.
But so far nothing bar my Cauldron moves less than 7", allowing for marches, most of it moves over 12! Should be entertaining.
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Finished my list. It's rather crazy for me. I usually shy away from big monsters and tooled up characters, but to go for the theme, this is the best I can do.
Dreadlord on Dragon: pendant of khaleath, ogre blade, h.a, sh, s.d.c
Sorceress L2 on Steed: talisman of preservation
Master on Pegasus: armour of darkness, opal amulet, lance
Death Hag BSB with Cauldron
5 Dark Riders with xbows
5 Dark Riders without
30 Corsairs with banner of swiftness
11 Spearmen
6 Cold Ones with ironcurse icon
Chariot
Chariot
Hydra
And that's it... bit tiny for a 2400pt army. Probably gonna have to play in a bit of a pick my battles, don't get too stuck in kind of a way. Hope we don't roll up battle for the pass!
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That's genunbiely the sort of army I want, minus the dragon and plus more Dr or CoK. Keep us updated how it goes.
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Will do! If it plays out interesting I may even bat rep it.
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I was going to suggest that but didn't want to be presumptious!
I've got that army minus the corsairs, chariots and cauldron, but plus a fair few harpies.
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I think the pendant is unfair, like a demon prince!
You should definitely do a battle report though.
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I think the pendant is unfair, like a demon prince!
He's sitting on a very big mount that's likely to be shot out from under his arse, that equalizes it.
:wink:
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Yeh, initially I was shying away from it but then was like, I am on a dragon, wht not!
Just got back from the game, will get a report up in the next day or two hopefully! I hate knowing results in advance so no spoilers!
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Fair point about the dragon! Those things are so expensive.
I'm looking forward to the report! I'm hoping your list did well.
Hmm, I forgot cold one knight champions can have magic items up to 25 points. I wonder if there's anything useful in the common item list. Potion of strength maybe?
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Hmm, I forgot cold one knight champions can have magic items up to 25 points. I wonder if there's anything useful in the common item list. Potion of strength maybe?
Maybe, but I don't know how useful that would be. He has S6 on the charge anyway - sure, S8 is better, but a bit wasted on a unit champion with just 2 attacks IMO.
I'd propably go for the ironcurse icon if I couldn't think of anything better. Or maybe the Ring of Hotek? Those guys will be charging forward anyway!
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He does get hatred rerolls, and has I6. But I suppose it's not really worth it.
Yes, probably a good place for the ring of hotek!
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Drat. Now I really have an itch to do Dark Elves. Must... resist.
The available character models help strengthen my resolve somewhat. Some are nice, some... not so much!
I really like the Cold One Knights though, the Corsairs are pretty awesome too. The Hydra looks cool, and the basic infantry is... acceptable I guess. I even like the comic-y horses of the Dark Riders!
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Wait until they get a new book, and new models!
I think you'd actually have to be insane to buy the dark riders new.
Or 20 quid for five resin infantry! No.
Most of the range is so overpriced that the inevitable '30 quid for 10 plastic models' sets won't look so bad.
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Cold One Knights are actually quite reasonable in price, and Warriors and Corsairs are all right too.
I guess I'd stock up on a couple of boxes of those when a new book was announced, before the inevitable price rise.
:-D
But yeah, you're right. I'd wait for a new book before I made a decision. But DE and VC are two armies that have tickled my fancy for quite a while. Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos too, but that itch I'm kinda scratching with 40K.
:wink:
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Cold One Knights are actually quite reasonable in price
No they aren't!
And yes, most of the character models are horrible. The only one I have is the squid mask guy!
I like VC too, but I can't get through painting all the skeletons! Even though it's easy.
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After playing around with onlinecodex a bit, this would look like a pretty nice DE force I think:
2 Lords: 606 Pts. 20.2%
2 Heroes: 385 Pts. 12.8%
6 Core Units: 1104 Pts. 36.8%
3 Elite Units: 554 Pts. 18.4%
2 Rare Units: 350 Pts. 11.6%
*************** 2 Lords ***************
Dreadlord, General
+ Great Weapon
+ Dark Pegasus
+ Black Dragon Egg, Pendant of Khaeleth, Armour of Darkness
- - - > 286 Points
Supreme Sorceress, Level 4 Upgrade
+ Talisman of Preservation, Tome of Furion
+ Lore of Shadows
- - - > 320 Points
*************** 2 Heroes ***************
Death Hag, Cauldron of Blood
+ Battlestandard Bearer
- - - > 225 Points
Sorceress, Level 2 Upgrade
+ Dispell Scroll
+ Dark Magic
- - - > 160 Points
*************** 6 Core Units ***************
40 Dark Elf Warriors, Shields, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion
- - - > 295 Points
40 Dark Elf Warriors, Shields, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion
- - - > 295 Points
5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Musician
- - - > 117 Points
5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Musician
- - - > 117 Points
10 Crossbowmen
- - - > 100 Points
16 Crossbowmen, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion
- - - > 180 Points
*************** 3 Elite Units ***************
12 Cold One Knights, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion
+ Ironcurse Icon
+ Banner of Swiftness
- - - > 384 Points
5 Shades, Add. Handweapons
- - - > 85 Points
5 Shades, Add. Handweapons
- - - > 85 Points
*************** 2 Rare Units ***************
War Hydra
- - - > 175 Points
War Hydra
- - - > 175 Points
Total Points Darkelves : 2999
I especially like the Pegasus Lord, as he can pretty much do whatever the hell he wants. Join wherever he's needed or peel of solo and go choppity-chop. The Shades should be able to dispatch the enemy artillery pretty swiftly, and the Spearblocks should chew through pretty much anything with Occams.
I'd really like to include some Witch Elves and Corsairs, but they seem a bit expensive for what they bring!
Anyway, just idly playing around a bit. No real chance I'll get into DE anytime soon.
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That pegasus lord really is dirty! 1+ armour, T4 and a ridiculous ward save? Upsetting. :icon_sad:
Oh well, at least you didn't give the wizard the dagger of too many power dice!
It does look like a good list though.
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That pegasus lord really is dirty! 1+ armour, T4 and a ridiculous ward save? Upsetting. :icon_sad:
Don't forget the breath weapon... I don't expect that build to survive into the next book though!
Oh well, at least you didn't give the wizard the dagger of too many power dice!
5 spells from Lore of Shadows is pretty sexy! Also, 2 attempts to get Power of Darkness off if I want to. So if extra PD are needed, there's still a chance to get some.
It does look like a good list though.
And should be fun to play too I think, since there's still a bit of variety in there. I like to play with Light Cavalry and Scouts and stuff.
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I have to agree on the bad character model thing.
I use cold one knight dudes as my masters, a 40k dark eldar as my general, a deamonette as my bsb, a reaper sorceress, belladonna as anothet sorceress. I do have morathi and that demon cold one riding dude but I never use them!
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Right, I hadn't considered Dark Eldar! There are quite a few characters there that fit. Like this dude:
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1420053a_99060112056_DEArchon1_445x319.jpg)
Then Lelith here would make an awesome Death Hag / Crone Hellebron:
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1420064a_99060112057_DELelith1_873x627.jpg)
She would work as a Master / Dreadlord as well. Or a very stylish assassin. Or even a sorceress if you give her a staff:
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1950161a_99800112012_DELhamaean02_873x627.jpg)
She works too:
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1670028a_99060112066_DESuccubus_873x627.jpg)
Good idea there, thanks! All those look pretty damn good, and none of them have any grenades, pistols ore other modern looking stuff on them as far as I can see.
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I actually had the empire wizard dude on Pegasus as my pegasus sorcererss
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Ai there's some decent stuff there Aldaris. The one I use for my dread is the first one you pictured. i just switched his magicy arm for a shield arm. Sorted.
Also I could see someone using the wytch boxset as witch elves if you were looking for slightly less skimpy clothed ones. I am using them as ab elf bloodbowl team though when I get round to it!
Fin, a sorcerer? Blasphemy!
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Archon guy is good, apart from his daft tyranid sword.
I actually had the empire wizard dude on Pegasus as my pegasus sorcererss
Me too, in fact. I wonder if I copied your idea?
I also have Bretonnian sorceresses. And the Mordheim elf wizard. I don't care about the 'no male wizards' fluff.
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Hmm, not sure if my one has that sword... maybe I subbed in a corsair sword too, I'm gonna check...
Ah he does have that sword but I dunno that it is too noticeable on mine...
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/Dreadlord.jpg)
As to your male sorcerers... Malekith will make you paaaay!
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Oh, the sword looks fine if you paint it like that! Much better.
Maleketh is such a loser.
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Male sorcerers used to be fine anyway, so who cares. When I played Dark Elves my sorcerer lord was an old male DE wizard model.
I only have one dark elf figure now... and it isn't even mine.
I throw things at it.
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Phew, finally got it up there:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=46632.msg828567#msg828567 (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=46632.msg828567#msg828567)
Leave comments or else! :happy:
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No. :icon_biggrin:
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:cry:
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As the Dark Elf book might be coming out soon, I thought it might be fun to make a bunch of predictions and see how close I can get... I haven't really heard any rules rumours so this will be purely opinion, some a bit random... I hope that book comes out in a few weeks... let's see how close I can get...
Core:
Spears - go up to 8 or 9 points
Corsairs - no change
Xbows - up one point to 11
Dark Riders - unchanged
Overall I don't think there should be too many changes. If spearmen go up I think crossbows need to go up or you may never see a spear again.
Special:
Black Guard - Up one point, cap taken off
Executioners - no change. I think you only don't see them because black guard are such better value
Witch Elves - hmm, tough. Maybe a built in 6+ ward, up 1WS points remain the same. Who knows... might pick up a new special rule
Chariots - cold ones +1 atk, remain same points
Cold Ones Knights - Cold ones +1 atk, stay the same besides that
Shades - drop a point
Rare:
Cauldron of Blood with no character pop up here?
Hydra - hmm, maybe up to 200pts but stay the same
Reapers - down to 70 exactly like high elves
New thing that looks just like a cauldron of blood but isn't...
Lords:
Hag Queen lord choice
Other lords stay the same
Heroes:
Assassins move here, get a bit cheaper
I could see another new hero choice but not sure... return of the beastmaster
Magic:
Dark Magic revamped, maybe with 2 sig spells like high elves as they are the opposite...
Trying to come up with a lore attribute, perhaps something to pump up your units like the high elves got... but different
Overall:
Hatred will stay (ok that is just hoping!)
Revamp of khainite rules so that you can mix characters in better (or not, I'm not overlyconvinced on this)
Ok, well that's my predictions based of recent books and how they seem to be doing things. I would love a whole new non monster unit too but it's not like it's really necessary, dark elves already have a lot of nice stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to see plastic dark riders with some alternative new unit too like witch elves or corsairs on horses...
Fingers crossed we can see how badly wrong I am soon. :-P
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+1 attack for cold ones would be nice, since they are currently scary-looking models with fairly pathetic stats!
Plastic 'dark riders/random other unit on horses just because' seems likely. As does 'cauldron of blood on wheels/random alternate thing.' And a new monster.
Army book will cost 30 quid so I won't buy it.
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I think they will become substantially more expensive no more power dice generating items or spells. New Monster.
DE spears 9 points and everything orienting on that
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I will totally buy it. Costs a bit, but the new army books are just so lovely. Plus I have played this army book to death. It's a good versatile one which was not horribly internally balanced. You could get away with taking the sub opitmal stuff without too much fear so it stayed fresh a long time. But I am ready for some new shiny stuff...
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Yeah, the Cauldron will become a big plastic kit that can be made into two variants. Probably some kind of chariot thing with Witch Elves on one and a mount option for Witch Elf characters, and something totally different on the other, most likely a mount option for non-Witch characters.
I also predict a new big plastic monster, probably with its basis in Dragons/Hydras/Cold Ones, if not the Hydra itself becoming plastic and getting bigger.
Oh yeah, don't forget their monstrous cavalry option. Did the High Elves gain a monstrous cav option in their book?
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Nope they didnīt.
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I won't be surprised if monstrous cav shows up, but I feel like it won't.
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Looks like I picked the right time to dump my metal Blackguard/Hydras/Executioners/Witch Elves on Ebay.
I was ready to leave Dark Elves behind after using them consistently since the 7E book came out, but if even half the rumors are true I'll definitely try to update my army.
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Model wise, I read a rumour somewhere that they were updating a tonne of the special stuff and dark riders to plastic... I'd be more excited if I wasn't already pretty good for that stuff. But hey, it is about time. If witch elves and exectutioners do both improve, I'd probably need a box of each to make a goodly size unit...
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This was what I posted on druchii.net back in May 30, 2013:
Hopefully, GW will enhance the fluff of the DE rather than converge towards "all armies get same stuff with different names and models".
Khainite armies. No mounts, no shooting.
There is a demand. At present, only Hellebron can make WE core, and there's only one exec character, and he is just a named champ.
They ought to be made more playable, with Exec unnamed character with access to armour, and WE more available as core troops. Also, DH survivability must be adressed with improved Gifts.
I'd expect in the process the COB to become a rare chariot and to get its buff with PD, like Empire's buffwagons.
You'd get WE core, Execs special, COB rare, WE/Exec/sass heroes, hopefully a lord too, an unnamed lord DH riding a manticore would be awesome.
Expeditionary armies. Light MSU.
There is a demand, too. At present, corsair/DR/shades/harpies armies lack high S attacks. The only specific character is Lokhir (a nice fellow, I'd say).
They could be made more playable, intended to be played MSU the good old fasioned way.
I'd like to see Corsair unnamed character. Also, shielded DR improved to real mid cavalry would be awesome, even if made special in the process.
A similar flying chariot as the HE just got would be outstanding.
You'd get corsairs & DR & harpies as core, some middle-ground cav & shades as special, flying chariots & RBT as rare, corsair hero and hopefully a conqueror as lord, who would give some flavoured army-wide rule.
Did I mention a giant squid?
Beastmaster armies. All tamed monsters.
There is a demand. Too bad the beastmaster was gone and the Manti is hardly playable as it is now. There is not much choice.
Please return the beastmaster with many new cute pets to cuddle. Get Monstrous cav and beastmasters on flying cav as rare, and allow them for hero's mount.
I'm afraid dragon would not be accessible to heroes, though, that seems to be a HE characteristic.
I'd like to see some war beast, preferably with handlers, possibly as core troops so as to allow full monster armies.
As rare troops, a unit of beastmasters riding flying MC would be great.
You'd get war beasts with handlers & harpies as core, COK/COC as special, MC, flying cav and hydra as rare, heroes & lords mounted on MC or monsters.
City's armies. Classic armies.
Today, we can take good old fashioned spearmen and RXBmen, with BG as special, led by normal heroes and lords.
I would not resent BG going back to the rare slot, especially if the 20 cap was removed.
I'd love to see City Guards come, for example as special troops.
You'd get spears & RXB as core, city guards as special, BG & RBTs as rare, led by the usual heroes and lords, supported by magic.
Mixing everything. for WAACky armies.
Just a summary of the above.
Core: spears, RXB, WE, corsairs, DR, harpies, war beasts
Special: city guards, Execs, mid cav, shades, COK, COC
Rare: BG, RBT, COB, flying chariots, flying cav, MC, hydra, giant squid or other non-flying monster,
Heroes: noble, sorc, DH, exec hero, sass, corsair hero, access to MC and Manti
Lords: noble, sorc, DH, conqueror.
Now, let's update Siberius predictions, adding some of the new units rumoured.
Core:
Spears - go up to 8 points, with shield
Swordsmen (better WS, shield) 9pts, or become special with stubborn, 10pts
Corsairs - no change
Xbows - up one point to 11
Dark Riders - unchanged
Harpies => become special otherwise no change
New warlocks (horseriders, no armor, handweapon, some magic ability for unit) for same pts as DR
Special:
Black Guard - Up two point, cap taken off, may go back to rare
Executioners - ASL removed because of ASF armywide, so up two pts - rumoured to cause D3 wounds.
Witch Elves - become core
Chariots - cold ones +1 atk, remain same points
Cold Ones Knights - Cold ones +1 atk, stay the same besides that
Shades - drop a point
Scroungerunners (corsair's chariot with built in lesser RBT) - lesser fighing stats as COC, same pts
Rare:
Cauldron of Blood with no character, uses PD, for 200 pts
Hydra - 220 pts
Kraken - sea creature (so cannot march on land) but M8, may appear from any pound? No clue about stats and pts
Reapers - down to 70, a pair counts for 1 slot
Lords:
Dreadlord as it is.
Hag Queen lord choice, with the COB or Manti as mount. 4++.
New special medusa character in rumours, on COB, with magic abilities.
Sorc gets Beasts Lore, costs 25pts less.
New corsair lord (conqueror) with specific ability.
Heroes:
Assassins move here, get a bit cheaper and improve killingness
beastmaster can ride Manti, costs much less than noble.
Executioner hero.
Corsair hero.
Sorc gets Beasts Lore.
the days of the COB BSB are gone.
Magic:
Dark Magic revamped.
Overall:
Hatred will stay, Same ASF as HE.
Instead of Khainite rule, there will be an advantage for Khainite lord/heroes to be with Khainite units,
for corsair lord/heroes to be with corsair units,
for beastmasters to be with monsters/harpies.
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Army wide hatred AND ASF......and many choices staying the same point cost...sounds like some wishlisting.
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No stupid ASF for everyone! It's gay enough on good elves.
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Yeah those pts costs are a joke.
Should they turn out to be true someone needs to get fired.
And beaten.
Severely.
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I hope most of that is wishlisting too...
Dark elves are already good enough with hatred.
There are so many new units mentioned too that I have a very hard time believing them to be accurate. But then hey, we were saying the same thing about Empire rumours... :-P
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That kraken had better look amazing.
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They also might get halfling assassins.
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Looking forward to seeing this stuff. If warriors and other currently ugly choices actually get redone in a pleasing way I might give in to temptation.
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Sorceresses who actually wear some clothes, instead of looking like middle-aged hookers.
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Nice characters are important, but I can kind of grind my teeth and live with not-so-nice ones in a pinch. Troops on the other hand... those are the minis I'll paint the most when I make a new army, so if I don't like those it's a dealbreaker.
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Well might as well copy some warseer stuff in here...
1) NEW Plastic Dark Elf Warrior Box(Makes Spearmen, swordsmen, & crossbowmen)
2) NEW PLastic Dark Riders/Warlocks
3) NEW Plastic Blackguard/Executioners
4) NEW Plastic Coldone Chariot/Scroungerunner(Pulled by horses)
5) NEW Plastic Cauldron of Blood/Blood Throne(This model is AMAZING)
6) NEW Plastic Hydra/Kraken
7) NEW Plastic Witch Elf box
If the dark elf warriors come a bit closer to the Corsairs I think they will look great.
1) NEW Plastic Dark Elf Warrior Box(Makes Spearmen, swordsmen, & crossbowmen)
The new Warriors look quite different to me. But then again I am a big geek that notices stuff like that. They have cloaks that come down their back and all the helmets don't cover the eyes any more.
The cloaks hang down from underneath the shoulder armor and cover the back of the chain mail. It definitely is new for them but it looks really cool. The Druchii warriors also have shoulder armor. It makes them look simply awesome. The skull embossed on their shields looks great too.
The Warriors, Black Guard, and Dark Riders all have cloaks. None of them appear to have face coverings.
It does not appear that any of the banners have designs sculpted onto them. The pictures we have of the warriors show 2 regiments, one armed with swords and shields and one armed with spears and shield. Our source tell us that they will make crossbows but we don't have a picture of them.
2) NEW PLastic Dark Riders/Warlocks
Warlocks appear to have one hand weapon
The warlocks are bare chested, and the weapons look mundane...aka not glowing. They look like large jagged daggers. They are held in reverse grips which looks pretty slick. The warlock champions eyes are glowing which IMO hints at some magical abilities.
The Warriors, Black Guard, and Dark Riders all have cloaks. None of them appear to have face coverings.
The Dark Riders are very cool looking. Sleek looking horses with only a bit of armor. All of the Riders are hunched over in the saddle to give the illusion of speeding fast cav. The helmets appear to be open faced and they are armed with spears in the picture I have, once again that doesn't mean they wont get crossbows (in the pictures we have they are in the back ground behind the Warlocks).
There does not appear to be a command group for the Warlocks, only a unit champion.
3) NEW Plastic Blackguard/Executioners
The Warriors, Black Guard, and Dark Riders all have cloaks. None of them appear to have face coverings. The Executioners appear to have skull faced helms. The theme to me appears to be a more sinister version of their High Elf bretheren. The plate armor has very spiked and jagged edges. The style will still fit well with the Shades and Reaper but next to these new models they will look very dated.
-Black Guard look very stalwart with large halberds and high helms with 3 spikes on each side with a flowing plume on top. Their armor is black trimmed in gold and they have dark purple cloaks. The unit champion is holding a sword by the hilt with the blade planted in the ground. Musician is a drummer.
-The executioners have what look like skull helms, and their armor is a brighter silver than the Black Guard. Their tunics are red in color and the Draiches are all held on the left hand side of their bodies (their left our right). They look very cool ranked up.
The Executioner champ is armed with an axe and is holding the decapitated head of a High Elf. Pretty dang cool.
4) NEW Plastic Coldone Chariot/Scroungerunner(Pulled by horses)
The new chariot crew is armed with spears and what looks to be a large crossbow or bolt thrower on the chariot.
For the Scroungerunner charoit the crew look similar to Corsairs. The passenger shooting the crossbow/boltthrower has what appears to be a sea dragon cloak on. There are reins but they look like just normal black leather. The horses look awesome and angry. Both are black in color with red eyes. The chariot only has one wheel that is centered on the back part. Sounds stupid, looks cool. And as usual nasty spikes and blades al
And yes the Cold Ones on the chariot match the current Cold One Knights.
5) NEW Plastic Cauldron of Blood/Blood Throne(This model is AMAZING)
The Cauldron of Blood/Blood Throne look very cool. If you are a fan of the newer larger models GW has been putting out for WHFB you will really dig it. It is a bit toned down compared to the Empire Celestial Hurricanum/Luminark of Hysh and has blades and hooks on it to make it very sinister and Dark Elf.
The Cauldron of Blood/Blood Throne are on a bigger base than the chariot base.
Yes the Cauldron and the Blood throne both have 6 wheels. They are on the same chassis, just with different stuff on the altar. I just noticed that the Witch Elves on Blood Throne have metal masks that cover the front of their face with the exception of their chin and mouth area and of course their eyes.
Ok and now to answer the Medusa question: She has the lower body of a snake and it appears there are other snakes on her base. The right side of her torso is bare, including her breast. In her right hand she is holding a spear. She has armor over her left breast and has a nasty looking clawed gauntlet on her hand. Her mouth is agape and she has snakes for hair. There is also a significant amount of blood on the model.
6) NEW Plastic Hydra/Kraken
About Hydra:It looks bigger and beefier.
Yes the Hydra does have 2 handlers.
-The Kraken has 5 heads/fanged maws. The have spines and scales with smooth neck and belly flesh. Scales are painted a Dark Grey with the softer flesh painted blue. Looks awesome.
The Kraken doesn't have tentacles, it has four legs with webbed appendages ending in claws and it also has a tail.
Yes the Kraken has multiple heads. From the pic it looks like there is one main head with eyes and the other four necks end with fanged maws. Very cool looking. It may sound stupid to people as it is walking but wait until the picture comes out before passing judgement.
You have to clear your head of any preconceived notions of what a Kraken is or looks like. Because lets face it, an 8 legged octopus creature flopping around on land would just not look right. It has 4 limbs that end in webbed feet with claws on them. It also has 5 heads. The main head has beady little eyes right above the mouth. The lower jaw on the main head extends kind of like an octopus tentacle but with teeth on it. The other heads end in an mouth with teeth and 4 claws around the head that look to facilitate grabbing their next meal.
7) NEW Plastic Witch Elf box
-The pictures we have of the Witch Elves has them with two hand weapons.
The witches are also sporting thigh high boots and are very dynamic with their poses. I wonder how much of a pain in the butt it will be to get them to rank up.
The Witch Elves look great. No mowhawks or anything like that. Long flowing hair, thigh high black boots and red loincloths and for lack of a better terms bras. They appear to have open mouths so lord only knows what they are saying before they come in and hack my poor High Elves to bits.
There appears to be a command group for the Witch Elves.
Crone Hellebron?
-Apparently one of the pics we have is Crone Hellebron. She is a little more armored up than a normal WE. She has a sword and a small blade (I am thinking Deathsword and Parrying Blade). She definitely has the big hair like in her artwork in the current army book.She looks young like a regular WE. She has a a bit more clothing, but not much. She has a gold mask covering her face that extends upwards in a crown like fashion. Both arms are raised towards the sky.
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7 new boxes at once? Really?
You have to clear your head of any preconceived notions of what a Kraken is or looks like.
Call it something else then.
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I would suggest to take those rumours with a grain of salt.
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I'll be very surprised if all of that is true!
Also, one-wheeled chariot? I hope not.
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After this....the box of Pandora is open.
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180559a_99120210022_LothernSkycutter01_873x627.jpg)
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I quite like that though!
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Yes me too ...but when someone said flying chariot carried by a single birdy I wasnīt impressed. The one wheeler might look great no matter how silly it is.
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Or it might look terrible, like all the recent chaos stuff. Or the ogre muppet monsters. Or mega-pigeon, the empire griffon.
Who knows!
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I do like the new Empire Griffon.
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7 new boxes at once? Really?
Not at once.
Two waves.
October release:
Dreadspears(Warriors?) Ģ20
Shadowblade Ģ12
Witch Elves Ģ35
Cauldron of Blood Ģ45
Kharibdyss Ģ40
Army book and Magic Card set too, but no "battleforce".
Everything else in Novembre.
People on Warseer suppose the Kharibdyss to be the kraken.
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I'm not too worried about the new models. I am sure they will look cool as long as they don't deviate too far from what the dark elves already look like. GW has done well recently in my opinion, demons aside...
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Witch Elves Ģ35.00
Is that the new 'Goldswords' price level?
It was bad enough at Ģ25.00 what three years ago - so a 40% increase in 3 years - wow I knew inflation was hitting the world hard .... :engel:
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I will probably still get some... Though I won't be paying that much for them...
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Ģ35 witch elves do sound like an amusing joke.
People on Warseer suppose the Kharibdyss to be the kraken.
It should be a whirlpool!
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easy to proxy then...hole in the base ....some teeth done.
(http://blog.creaders.net/ebola/upload_file/20080611055639.jpg)
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Maybe that's why it doesn't look like a preconceived notion of a Kraken, haha.
But it probably just looks like Scylla.
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But it probably just looks like Scylla.
We already have a hydra!
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Maybe that's why it doesn't look like a preconceived notion of a Kraken, haha.
But it probably just looks like Scylla.
It's impossible for a land based Kraken to look like a Kraken, because Kraken are just big squid.
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They could do it like the LoTR Watcher I guess.
I always thought Scylla had humanoid heads? And no mention of her legs really - I always thought of them as tiny, vestigial withered things, to keep her trapped in that cave.
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Still very similar to a hydra though!
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Anybody who wants to make their own?
I have some snake like lower torsos from that lot of Clan Wars figures I picked up. :engel:
(http://www.google.co.uk/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x500/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/v/e/vell5rn04.jpg&sa=X&ei=k1s_UuiMHYWk0QWa34GYDg&ved=0CAkQ8wc4JA&usg=AFQjCNFBO5Bo8xaKrQ3hj2nB6sh7VFQeow)
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Maybe that's why it doesn't look like a preconceived notion of a Kraken, haha.
But it probably just looks like Scylla.
It's impossible for a land based Kraken to look like a Kraken, because Kraken are just big squid.
Not according the Ray Harryhausen. Ever since I first saw this movie when I was a little kid, this is the only thing I've pictured in my head when I think of a Kraken.
(http://blogs.westword.com/showandtell/kraken2.jpg)
Ooops, here the full model. Nope still not a squid!
(http://www.superstructure.co.uk/content/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Clash-of-the-Titans-Kraken.jpg)
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For me it is 30 000 leagues under the sea.
(http://www.sffaudio.com/images09/LIBRIVOX20000LeaguesUnderTheSea500.jpg)
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Not according the Ray Harryhausen. Ever since I first saw this movie when I was a little kid, this is the only thing I've pictured in my head when I think of a Kraken.
I always liked that film, but found the kraken confusing.
Why was there a kraken in a film based on Greek myth, and why wasn't it a squid?
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I think we may be too honed in on it being a kraken. It probably will be called something else in which case they can do what they like! It will probably be rubbish anyway! They haven't made one of their big solo monsters all that scary since the abomination...
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I'll laugh if it ends up not having that 'sea monster' rule from the main rulebook.
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Chimera? Not scary?
Frostheart Phenix....not scary?
Slaugtherbrute...not scary?
Well Siby I think you have not many games of the new army books under your belt if you donīt think the new monsters scary...some people are already speaking in hushed dreaded voices of a return of Hero/Monsterhammer.
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Frostheart Phenix....not scary?
Cheaty rules, and the model is so flat it looks like someone sat on it.
Hate!
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It is a bit too cheap for what it brings...like most monsters monstrous cav these days.
The model is ace especially if someone paints it. :engel:
oh and your hate.....my sweet nectar and ambrosia.
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Having my dwarfs killed by an invincible, empty flying base was so much fun.
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It isnīt invincible...I lost a couple of rounds in cc but luckily it stayed around and wasnīt run down by dwarves....oh how grand the shame would have been.
My warmachine hunters also turned invisible rather fast.
:dry:
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Scyla's legs were six dogs sprouting from her waist - she had 24 dog legs, with six dog heads around her hips.
This is because the ancient Greeks were hella-flipping tripping-balls-to-the-wall hatstand batship loco insane.
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I remember the dog heads, the barking was a sign she was near, but I thought she had her own legs. Crazy.
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Scyla's legs were six dogs sprouting from her waist - she had 24 dog legs, with six dog heads around her hips.
This is because the ancient Greeks were hella-flipping tripping-balls-to-the-wall hatstand batship loco insane.
Well most of those myths were made up to protect trade lanes...and if you start to exaggerat super monsters that will eat ya....you can as well go completely wild about it.
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Chimera? Not scary?
Frostheart Phenix....not scary?
Slaugtherbrute...not scary?
Well Siby I think you have not many games of the new army books under your belt if you donīt think the new monsters scary...some people are already speaking in hushed dreaded voices of a return of Hero/Monsterhammer.
Hmm I should have said non flying. Otherwise you could throw in the terrorgheist too... I have not played the slaughterbrute but haven't heard of it being used on the tournament scene much.
Monsterhammer will only return so much before the cannon armies quench it back down. You can run monster armies but there are very few monsters out there that can survive a full on cannon shot so you are running a risky game... If you grt through the cannons sure, you are gonna lay down the hurt...
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Besides the Giant and the Shaggoth most monsters are rather good for their points....the Sphinx, the Abomb and the Hydra for example are not known for their crappyness...the Slaughterbrute isnīt that bad but has to yield to the Chimera in most lists.
Isnīt there this pet trick with which you can give it Ws of 9? Soth did something like that at the Eurobash.
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I genuinely have never heard of the slaughterbrute. :icon_confused:
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Hes a shit chaos model of shit. Shit.
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Big angry red thing Soth fielded against you....
(http://img.over-blog.com/600x430/0/40/77/08/News/m2980804a_99120201021_SlaughterbruteMutalith01_873x627.jpg)
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Hmmm, there's a reason I try not to look at chaos models.
It looks like something from a rubbish computer game!
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they were really shit releases.
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New GW clip: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=11100002
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Not very informative!
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Well confirmation that there will be Dark Elves....and more underwater fluff and introduction of Warhammer Armies: Fishmen.
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Im disappointed with how efficiently GW is able to stymie rumours since the rumour crackdown. This stuff is released in 6 days, and we have what, no good info? No pictures?
Its such a bizarre business model.
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Well it certainly got me hyped for Empire and High Elves.
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Publicity is bad!
:icon_confused:
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Publicity is bad!
:icon_confused:
no publicity is bad publicity
no publicity is good publicity.
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Besides the Giant and the Shaggoth most monsters are rather good for their points....the Sphinx, the Abomb and the Hydra for example are not known for their crappyness...the Slaughterbrute isnīt that bad but has to yield to the Chimera in most lists.
Indeed, that's why I said post-abomb. No denying that he and the hydra are handy.
That preview was one of the poorer ones I've seen them do. Looked like a screensaver with some powerpoint text and then a bit of shaky camera... still, who cares. The main thing is book incoming, woo!
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Warhammer: Elfi Oscuri 39
Magia da Guerra di Warhammer: Elfi Oscuri 4,50
Lance del Terrore/Schegge Oscure/Spade Tetre degli Elfi Oscuri 24
Elfe Streghe/Sorelle del Massacro degli Elfi Oscuri 42
Idra/Kharibdyss degli Elfi Oscuri 48
Calderone del Sangue/Trono Carcassa di Sangue 54
Shadowblade 14,50
Some italian prices....looks legit to me.
Ninja edit...nobody expects the Korinthenkacker inquisition :unsure:
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You mean Italian. :dry:
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You mean Italian. :dry:
Spanish.. Italian.... let's be honest here...we don't really care. It's all Greek to us.
Does these countries have anything in common?
(Germany is picking up their bill)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr1p4KtgOXc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr1p4KtgOXc)
:happy:
A helpful comment from Fidelis would have been a translation....but nahhhh more fun that way.
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Big angry red thing Soth fielded against you....
(http://img.over-blog.com/600x430/0/40/77/08/News/m2980804a_99120201021_SlaughterbruteMutalith01_873x627.jpg)
This thing would be ok if it weren't for the 'let's rock' hand, if it had a head swap and, actually it's probably not worth it.
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2980819a_99120201021_SlaughterbruteMutalith04_873x627.jpg)
You like the other version better Rufus? It's a bit chtulu-y! I'm not sure I like it what with the lack of real head.
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both awful models!
booo games workshop booooo
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Ninja edit...nobody expects the grammar inquisition :unsure:
Just as well, as it is not related to grammar.
A helpful comment from Fidelis would have been a translation....but nahhhh more fun that way.
Here you are, then:
Warhammer: Dark Elves
Warhammer Battle Magic: Dark Elves
Dark Elves Dread Spears/Dark Shards/Bleak Swords
Dark Elves Witch Elves/Sisters of Slaughter
Dark Elves Kharibdyss/Hydra
Dark Elves Cauldron of Blood/Bloodwrack Shrine
Shadowblade - that was the most difficult to translate.
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Spanish.. Italian.... let's be honest here...we don't really care. It's all Greek to us.
Or is it that you just hate DE? :icon_wink:
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sisters of slaughter.
lol
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My attempt at translation (not translating to Ģ, though):
DE army book: 39
Set of cards of Dark Lore: 4,50
Lance / RXB / Swords: 24
WE / sisters of massacre 42
Hydra/Kharibdyss 48
COB / Throne of Blood 54
Shadowblade 14,50
...
which means that everything else is due one month later.
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The sisters of slaughter are rares: enemies is base contact with them must re-roll successful leadership tests.
Hydras are specials can upgrade to get a strength 4 breath attack, no regen but can regrow heads (recover lost wounds) just like the slann can with his discipline.
The kraken thing has a special ability that triggers when all 5 of its attacks hits ( gets an extra attack that inflicts additional hits) has a scaly skin save. Both use the monster and handler rules.
They have 2 signature spells just like high magic. One of the spells goes off on a 8+ and grants a unit +1 strength and then you gain D3 power dice but if you gain 3 power dice this way the wizard suffers a wound with no saves allowed.
The army has always strikes first.
Murderous Prowless: models with this rule re roll 1s when rolling to wound.
Wizards casting Dark Magic add plus 1 to their casting attempts.
That is all I remember from what my source told me. Hope it helps.
More food on warseer....
it seems Dark Elves might get ASF and murderous prowless .....so re rolling 1s to wound instead of extra ranks fighting.
Hmmm....I think this might be rather good on High S models like cold one riders and black guard wounding on 3+ against most enemies re rolling the 1īs means 89 % of the wounds going through with re rolls to hit due asf or elite warriors (doesnīt really matter from where they get their re rolls) means a horde of them would get 24 wounds. :mellow:
I think I start to dislike re rolls like everyone playing against HE.
They make units too reliable.
I hope they grant corsairs a 1-2 points reduction I would love to see them more often on the table. Awesome models and I like the fluff.
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Corsairs were already worth taking. If spears and xbows go up just a little I think corsairs will be well pointed...
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Hydras are specials can upgrade to get a strength 4 breath attack, no regen but can regrow heads (recover lost wounds) just like the slann can with his discipline.
Oh man, Few weeks I ago I decided to start gluing my 2 Hydra's together. I had thought about magnetizing the heads to be wound markers. OH man am I totally doing that now!
....even though my hydras are metal(old and new version) would be alot easier with the finecast Hydra.
I also noticed that they are specials because no one is going to give up their hydras to buy new fancy rares.
I guess GW has learned their lesson that if they make something like the Hydra really good and it becomes a focal point of everones army and then they nerf it real bad just so people will buy a new model - then players quit!
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I don't like it. Monsters in special is ruining warhammer.
It's the reason everyone is getting cannons, and it's pushing cavalry into core for more and more armies.
It's bloody retarded.
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Empire and Dwarfs have special artillery. That's their mark.
Dark Elve's mark is to tame monsters. It make sense to get them as special.
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Empire and Dwarfs have special artillery. That's their mark.
Dark Elve's mark is to tame monsters. It make sense to get them as special.
For one army sure, it makes sense. But lately I feel the trend is that every other army gets to field a monster mash list. Lizzies, WoC and now DE.
Even MC should be rare. Then we wouldn't get the 2stanks, 2x4 DGK armies.
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Elves might as well just not bother rolling to hit. Or to cast. Or to hold. Or to dispel.
Just make MGM auto everything I mean, they're elves. Clearly they are amazing at everything. Everyone should just play elves.
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come mogsam, 25 elf spearmen might miss one attack a turn, some times, if the wind is a bit off. I total agree all the re-rolling is a total ball ache in the last couple of times i've played them. It really drags out the rolling
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I find it hard to believe all units will have ASF AND re-rolling 1s to wound
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As someone that has hatred in all 3 armies I play, I will say that rerolling is a wonderful thing, but there are other things to take into account. It helps, but for all wounds you push through from that, your opponent may miss half their attacks but then wound with more because of your total lack of armour...
I agree with fin that the combination of asf and reroll 1s sounds a bit nasty though... especially on say executioners who will go to strike in initiative which is decent and then hit on often 3s rerolling the wounds. That is gonna be a whole lot of death...
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They have the same amount of army most other cores have too....none to 5+.
2+ on knights.
They really arenīt that weak and fragile on the receiving end....not more than everybody else.
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Yeah, they aren't any worse at standing than half the armies and have better armour than most. Plus with all the magic they have they're hard to hit anyway. Generally they are just annoying to play against.
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I think they fix em...like the fixed most of 8th armies....not sure about Chaos yet.
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They have the same amount of army most other cores have too....none to 5+.
2+ on knights.
They really arenīt that weak and fragile on the receiving end....not more than everybody else.
The 3 armies I play are Empire, Beasts and Dark Elves. So my main core blocks are Halberdiers, Gors and Spears. That is 6+, 0 and 6+.
Compared to say Lizards, Chaos, Dwarfs, Demons, most of whom have parry saves too... plus a lot more T4.
I've actually found the hatred on my beasts a lot more useful as they get it pretty much every turn. I guess on the whole ASF would be better than hatred so they'd definitely need to be bumped up nearer high elf prices if they went that way...
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Can we post pic links?
If so
http://40kwarzone.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/white-dwarf-is-here.html?m=1
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I do like the Medusa model...I think.
The Hydra is....Ginourmos....but suffers from a bad paint job I think .
looks like an ozelotl.
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Like most of it, except for the Hydra. Snake lady on wagon looks good, infantry looks good, Hellebron looks good as far as I can tell from those pics.
Tempted!
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New warriors look nice, new witch elves look nice.
Don't like the sisters of slaughter.
But hard to judge from those pics!
Thanks cal
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I'm not sure I'm loving the jump-skippyness of the witch elves/sisters. Feels a tad too animeish for me.
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The kraken thing looks cool, the hydra... Dislike from this. But that's fine, I already have one/two.
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God I hate Dark Elves. They are what broke 6th and 7th and resulted in 8th.
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I realised I don't care what the stupid name sisters look like, as at their price I'll never buy any!
Hurrah.
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Hmmmm....Been really looking forward to the release and then see these pictures, it seems GW have gone for a mix of Dark Eldar and 5th Edition Dark Elves, it's not particularly to my liking.
The Hydra looks absolute gash, it's heads are fat Lizards, I'm going to have to pick up the one that's out now it's a lot better looking. The Kraken thing, doesn't look great either.
Spear Elves seem very mono pose, hoping this isn't the case. Having seen the Xbows.....just awful, don't think I'll be getting any of those anytime soon.
The Cauldron, Witches and Shadowblade look nice, be interested to see what the rest of the minis are.
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Got a link?
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Previous page.
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whats wrong with the crossbows?
can barely make them out anyway
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Not that keen on those.
Sick of goofy wagons and jumping people.
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Hydra looks worse than the current model.
Dark Elf spearmen look about the same.
Kharibdyss is a good model, but a silly concept.
The shrine/cauldron looks even sillier than the Empire buff wagons. Stairs? Looks like a Mardi Gras float.
I don't see why people are so excited about this release. I guess the witch elves look kind of nice, assuming you're playing on a table with a lot of protruding spikes.
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Zif! I literally agree with everything you said!
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The Spearmen are much better than before - they have a proper banner instead of that awful crossbar with two pennants hanging off it. The champion and musician look better as well. And they don't have fists the size of their heads anymore.
Here's a better picture:
(http://i.imgur.com/BiprmDF.jpg)
I'm not fond of the altar.
The hydra would look better with a less gaudy paint scheme.
The Witch Elves look awesome.
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They look fine, unless it's Ģ20 for ten, in which case no.
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they're 24 euros a pack.
does that work to 20 for ten? guess so.
the core infantry look basically the same. I don't think I'd be able to tell a picture of them apart, if you showed me them and said "which is new"
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5th edition throwback there.
Love the medusa, not so much her mirror. Looks like a casket of souls wannabe.
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i just checked the spearmen. New helmets and new shields and new hands, body looks the same!
but yes, a lot better than before.
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they're 24 euros a pack.
does that work to 20 for ten? guess so.
the core infantry look basically the same. I don't think I'd be able to tell a picture of them apart, if you showed me them and said "which is new"
Here's the previous models:
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m470416_99120212001_DarkElfWarriorsMain_873x627.jpg)
I suppose there's a slight improvement, but not much.
These, on the other hand, are awesome models:
(http://www.coolminiornot.com/gencon2010/gen-con-10-press-release_files/image006.jpg)
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are those the gamezone ones they did in plastic?
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Yes.
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luvverly jubberly.
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Oh, I forgot those gamezone ones. They look good!
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Having had a better view of all the pics now I actually don't mind the cauldron except I don't know how it moves unless it goes in a unit like the skaven bell. It has wheels but nothing moving it!
The witches I think will look better when painted better.
The spears are fine. They will mix in well with the old ones but are definitely an improvement. Still hating the hydra. Not hating thr kraken as much but that might just be because it is not replacing what was already a great model.
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Having had a better view of all the pics now I actually don't mind the cauldron except I don't know how it moves unless it goes in a unit like the skaven bell. It has wheels but nothing moving it!
It moves by magic! Maybe.
I don't think I want any of that stuff. Let's see the dark riders.
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Yeah, the new spear troops don't look very good. I mean they look better than the old ones, but not a HUGE improvement.
I will say this, when you look at the older models, they look pretty crappy up close, though in that picture they look okay.
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I will say this, when you look at the older models, they look pretty crappy up close, though in that picture they look okay.
The old ones are OK as crossbowmen, but horrible as spears.
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The old ones are more hotrible then I realised, which makes me like the new ones more.
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I like the dual magic wagon kit - I can see that being used to make some very nice War Altars (perhaps of Maanan).
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Only thing I donīt like about Medusalady...is all the blood dripping off her.
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You could use the cauldron wagon to board aircraft!
It's just a set of stairs on wheels.
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I will say this, when you look at the older models, they look pretty crappy up close, though in that picture they look okay.
The old ones are OK as crossbowmen, but horrible as spears.
Thats true, the spear arms had MASSIVE hands. The hands were like 1/4 the size of the torso...
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A lot of older plastics had giant hands. The dwarfs, the skaven, the high elves (which are still around). Not sure why!
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Having had a better view of all the pics now I actually don't mind the cauldron except I don't know how it moves unless it goes in a unit like the skaven bell. It has wheels but nothing moving it!
It moves by blood.
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A lot of older plastics had giant hands. The dwarfs, the skaven, the high elves (which are still around). Not sure why!
Perhaps because the shafts of the weapons were very thick (for technical reasons? I dunno) and so the hands needed to be big to go around.
Alternatively, they are related to Dusty Bin.
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Perhaps because the shafts of the weapons were very thick (for technical reasons? I dunno) and so the hands needed to be big to go around.
You know, you may be right about that. GW's older plastic was soft and had a tendency to warp (knight lances spring to mind) or just snap off (LotR Uruk-hai pikes). Their newer plastic is much harder, so sculpts made after that material became available can probably be considerably thinner without sacrificing durability.
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I would not be surprised to see the new cauldron to have to join a unit of Khainites (Execs, WE, sisters).
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Perhaps because the shafts of the weapons were very thick (for technical reasons? I dunno) and so the hands needed to be big to go around.
You know, you may be right about that. GW's older plastic was soft and had a tendency to warp (knight lances spring to mind) or just snap off (LotR Uruk-hai pikes). Their newer plastic is much harder, so sculpts made after that material became available can probably be considerably thinner without sacrificing durability.
But softer isn't both more likely to warp and snap. Harder -> more likely to snap, softer -> more likely to warp.
Glass, for instance, is much harder than plastics and thus more fragile and likely to snap.
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True but the parameters of resilence can improve a rock is hard too and will break and not warp...it isn t fragile though. I think new gw plastic is harder and better quality.
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New Releases
The DE Army book is written by Matt Ward
The largest dual kit is the Cauldron of Blood which allows you to make either a Cauldron of Blood or a Bloodwrack Medusa. You can also use this kit to make the special character Crone Hellebron.
The next dual kit is Witch Elves and the Sisters of Slaughter Sisters of Slaughter are apparently the lost daughters of fallen noble houses and look great.
The new DE Core box allows you to make your warriors with Spears, Swords and Shields or Repeater Cross-bows.
The Dual Hydra/Kharibdyss kit looks pretty good, there are pictures of the Hydra with different paint schemes that actually look a lot better than the leaked photo weve already seen.
The Special Character Shadowblade is a single pose figure that will come in a clampack
There is a Lore of Dark Magic Card set being released.
Army Special Rules/Points Cost
Dark Elves now have the armywide special rule of ASF (unsure if this will apply to monsters/cold ones)
Dark Elves also have Hatred but presumably only in the first round
Black Guard have eternal hatred
New Rule called murderous prowess allows Dark Elves to re-roll 1′s to wound. Unsure if this will extend to shooting and magic.
There is a new Beastmaster Lord Level Character which costs 300 points when naked on a Manticore
Witch Elves are core and 11 points per model. They can also take magical banners.
A unit of 30 Spear Elves and of 30 Xbow Elves with Full command costs 390 points. Unsure what options were used but that means the warriors were 12 points per model.
A DE Sorceress Hero looks to be 80 points
Cauldrons of Blood still come out of Hero slots and look to have increased in points. They can join units and one of their powers allows a unit to re-roll to wound. In the Batrep a unit with a Cauldron and this buff up deletes a unit of Sobunz.
Bloodwrack Medusas are rare and have a shooting attack called Bloodwrack Stare. Not sure what it does
Hydras can now regain wounds in a manner similar to the Slann with the regen power of the old ones. They are now 180 points, have monster+handler but have to buy their breath weapon.
http://plastickrak.blogspot.co.nz/2013/09/dark-elves-rules-leaks.html
supposedly from white dwarf!
Lore of Dark Magic The attribute is called spiteful conjuration and does extra wounds to enemies that have spells cast on them. Unsure of how the mechanic works but could be similar to Tz lore attribute?
Lore of Dark Magic Only spell mentioned is called Word of Pain and it reduces WS/BS/I
A Dreadlord with Heavy Armour and a Shield on a Black Dragon costs 449 points.
Cold Ones are 30 points and have 2 Attacks, unsure if the cold ones themselves have ASF
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Oh... Matt Ward....
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asf, hatred and murderes prowess?
I don't believe that.
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Don't know, Hatred could be just against high elves like it used to be.
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Elf players: save time and use loaded dice!
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Don't know, Hatred could be just against high elves like it used to be.
Isn’t hatred basically pointless with elfy ASF anyway? Weird. And do not like.
how much were spears bvefore, 6 pts?
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Yeh.
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Yeh.
nice, so the release will simultaneously annoy DE players for halving their spear numbers, and the rest of the community for infinite rerolls.
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Pretty much!
I usually take a horde of spears. If these are true, it seems like I am going to have quite a playstyle shift.
Witch elves core? Interesting....
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Pretty much!
I usually take a horde of spears. If these are true, it seems like I am going to have quite a playstyle shift.
Witch elves core? Interesting....
6 pt spears was basically what made DE such a good book. Just as cheap slaves and clan rats makes skaven a good book.
I guess the prices of the sisters of awful name was off, if theyre in a dual kit with the witches?
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Isnt hatred basically pointless with elfy ASF anyway? Weird. And do not like.
Well if you play against high elves, you got the basically same Initiatvie so no reroll(or does ASF vs ASF cancel each other anyway).
Hatred would still provide Dark elves with one.
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|f DE got re-rolls to hit and wound against HE how come they haven't killed them all already!
Fucking endless re-roll shit!
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IF they get the re rolls for shooting too and crossbows will cost the same as spear elves.....I guess you wonīt see a single spear elf in any DE army anyway.
12 points is rather steep point increase though.
Oh I think I want to go over to Druchiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii and taste myself some excellent whine.
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even before the book is out?
the HE whine from their new book was hilarious.
12 pt spears might justify some though...
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Well if they have loads of special rules.......
I donīt think 12 points for spears is reasonable though especially if even better choices will cost the same...if spears are 12 with all the rules Executioners would be what.....18 a pop?
So far the Druchiiiiiiii seem to be rather happy and content
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Reading this thread makes me miss Fantasy less and less, and honestly, it depresses me to feel that way. I was pretty pumped when 8th came out.
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Overreactions over partial information.
Wait for the definitive book before making definitive statements.
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callison, I see almost everyone saying "if"
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Well if you play against high elves, you got the basically same Initiatvie so no reroll(or does ASF vs ASF cancel each other anyway).
Hatred would still provide Dark elves with one.
"if the model's Initiative is equal to or higher than his enemy's, he can re-roll failed misses when striking in close combat"
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Hatred basically only means, in addition to ASF, that Execs get rerolls as well.
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Overreactions over partial information.
Wait for the definitive book before making definitive statements.
No so much, and it isn't a statement about Fantasy in general. If everyone I play with still had fantasy armies, so would I. It is more that the game jumped off too far from 6th, which was too bland and involved in tactics and not fun. 8th has flown almost too far to the special rules, super magic, and monsterous creatures.
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Overreactions over partial information.
Wait for the definitive book before making definitive statements.
No so much, and it isn't a statement about Fantasy in general. If everyone I play with still had fantasy armies, so would I. It is more that the game jumped off too far from 6th, which was too bland and involved in tactics and not fun. 8th has flown almost too far to the special rules, super magic, and monsterous creatures.
ding ding, winner.
We are discussing this in the "big cheese" thread :)
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I didn't know there was such a thread!
I genuinely miss Fantasy at times, but 40k scratches every itch I have so I am surviving!
Where is this Big Cheese thread? I shouldn't be pulling this thread off course.
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I'm not gonna whine till I have the book in my hands... :-P
But I hope that any change in the balance of power I will try and be possitive about because it will breath life into an army I have played every which way under the current book. No guarantees though. :wink:
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The witch elves on the cauldren of blood look good.
But I'm sorry, the new witch elves don't look that amazing. They are ok. I personally don't like the "leaping pose" GW goes with. And they aren't sexy enough. A whole unit in a leaping pose just looks weird IMO. I might eventually get one pack to mix in with my old dark elves and raging heroes dark elves just for some variety. The leaping pose is good for some action unit fillers.
This is what I think dark elf witch should look like. These ones also resemble the video games more. 22Euroes for command, 20Euroes for other. So basically same price as GW. Although since I'm in Canada, these are actually cheaper since GW has an inflated price here. (well, after shipping costs it works out the same-ish)
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0034/6452/products/vestal-command-box_large.jpg?389)(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0034/6452/products/vestal-troop-box_large.jpg?389)
The dark elf "dreadspears" (funny name), they are what I expected. Same style just more crisp molding, which is fine. They just got an update. The old spearmen are still good enough but if your new to collecting dark elves there's no point in getting the old ones.
Only problem I think is the new dreadspears is nothing to get excited about. lol.
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I've been wondering what I might get from what they have released so far...
The witch elves are a bit too dynamic for me to want a whole unit of that, but I do think there are some cool poses and a box of 10 would get me up to mini horde size (I have 20 already) and add a lot of movement to an otherwise quite static unit so I am very likely to look for some of them on the cheap.
I already have 50 spears... I might see what I am likely to start running. If they really are doubling in points I doubt I will be running my much loved spear horde. I might even decide to swap some of them to be swordsmen. If I do that I could see myself getting another box of the new ones to push to the front rank and have 30 bus of each...
The hydra is horrible (and I already have one and one in a box)... but for some reason I really find the krakeny thing growing on me. It's weird.. but I might pick up one one day if I can ever afford it...
Still not sure what I think of the cauldron, but I already have one so that would be way down the list if ever.
And then if the rumours are true we might have a whole tonne of likely amazing minis to come...I'm just glad that I am already pretty good for most stuff...
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The shrine/cauldron looks even sillier than the Empire buff wagons. Stairs? Looks like a Mardi Gras float.
:icon_lol: :icon_lol: The Mardi Gras - that name will stick for sure.
Man that boat is an ugly sculpt. If my DE opponent starts singing Stairways to heaven I won't be surprised but will die a little inside.
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I actually think the Hydra looks good. I was never a fan of any of the old Hydras. The Kherabdys or what ever it is called just looks like some chaotic mess. "Well how will we make the Hyrdra look different? I know we'll just throw a crap load of mouths on it and get rid of its heads and eyes!" It is just horrible like so many of their recent models.
I do like the serpent woman on the Cauldron of Blood. That is a very nice looking model.
The Witch Elves look like they are performing some ballet. Other than their poses I don't think they look too bad either.
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I look at the witch elves and sisters of slaughter and think of leaping war dancers - I don't care for them, but maybe I'll change my mind when I see them in person.
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So those spearmen....really taking that 4th edition redux to the house eh
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Up on the GW site now.
They really do want Ģ35 for 10 dancing stripper elves! :Ohmy:
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Yes.....about the same as Goldswords are.....no wait those are even MOAR expensive :happy:
Elite Escort Elves......ready for your command.
Well all this is telling me is ...GW needs better and more competition.
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Up on the GW site now.
They really do want Ģ35 for 10 dancing stripper elves! :Ohmy:
Smug smile followed by: "I told you so"
:closed-eyes:
Sad thing is they're the first GW unit for some 3 years I have considered buying to convert and fill out my Arari.
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Took a closer look at all the minis now...
Pretty much my opinions are the same. On close inspection, the spears do look better than the current ones by a long shot, but whilst the detail is sharp, the posing options seem very limited.
The witch elves are cool and I might try and find some on the cheap to mix in with the old ones.
I found myself thinking the cauldron was actually quite impressive when I 360ed it. I won't get one as I already have it, but it is kinda cool.
Still think the hydra is not great but oddly liking the kraken...
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Is the gorgon thing a separate character/unit you can use without the mobile staircase? There's a picture of it on a normal base.
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I noticed that too... I see what people mean about the blood. Bit odd really and looks very time consuming and tricky to remove.
Also, I see power of darkness is s sig spell now... which makes sense cos that's almost what it was before. They just didn't know it was back then... :-P
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Dripping blood, flames and magical effects: don't model them on! They look bad.
Hmmm, I think the hydra looks OK actually! But I hate the crew and their stupid hair.
Witch elves look genuinely rubbish.
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I think the witch elves are modelled directly on some 6th ed era illustrations. The one with two daggers a over her head especially. I think I remember a picture where that pose was actually pulling them out of the back of a state trooper.
They're only $1 more than Goldswords here in Aussieland. Aussie prices for all!
Also, this release kind of sucks. The spearmen heads are attached to the bodies, according to the GW site. Do not want.
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I don't like witch elves as a concept, so they were never going to appeal.
Bring on wave two and the dark riders!
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Murder nuns in a twisted patriarchy sort of make sense to me. It's better than their sad attempts at sensationalist S&M fluff they keep running with, here and in 40k with the dark eldar. The assassins and witch elves and nautical themes are the best bits of dark elves to me actually, the rest is pretty garbage.
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I'm just in it for the cold ones and the squid banners. All the dark elf fluff is terrible!
Page after page of 'we really like stabbing each other.'
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Same with 40k they should just be (space) Pirates/Slavers...Arrrrrhhhhh!
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Ģ40 for a hydra? hahaha no.
the cauldron is just a joke, the medusa is nice apart from the blood, but overall the machine is a joke.
The hydra is ok, but no better than the old ones really. Just more convenient because plastic.
Ģ3.50 each for core troops is a bloody joke.
they don't even look good, and the sisters of stupidname are even worse.
I quite like the spearmen, and would consider buying them.
what a shit release. BOOOO GAMES WORKSHOP BOOOOO.
Well, no dark elf army update for me.
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amusing typo on the hydra page
"One is armed with two whipes. Such fearsome weapons are required to keep their ferocious beasts in check."
fearsom whipes!
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It wasnt too long ago, those kits of 10 core troops were 12 quid, right?
corsairs at Ģ15 for ten suddenly look bargainous.
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I like a lot of the models, but the pricing is so ridiculous that any notion of maybe starting an army was soundly driven from my mind. 35 for 10 witch elves? Yeah, right.
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That is the price in pounds...in they are 45,00
As stated Goldswords now look realitvely cheap.
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I'm starting to re-think liking the witch elves. Yes, they're nice models, but the repeated poses stand out a lot more when you have such dynamic models. With only 5 unique poses the unit is going to look very repetitive.
The continued proliferation of the top knot is annoying. Does anyone ever use those heads, unless in the most dire emergency?
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I wonder if diversifying the hair colors on the witch elves would help. I'm not entirely sold on the white/silver hair.
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I'm starting to re-think liking the witch elves. Yes, they're nice models, but the repeated poses stand out a lot more when you have such dynamic models. With only 5 unique poses the unit is going to look very repetitive.
The continued proliferation of the top knot is annoying. Does anyone ever use those heads, unless in the most dire emergency?
Agreed zif.
As individual models I quite like them. As a unit of ten they look poor
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They are too expensive to field a whole unit of them anyway :engel:
mix them with the old models ---> money saved and unipose solved.
I wonder if the unit itself will even have any merit last releases they were always the worst core choice...I think they will continue to do so.
My money is on those fancy new sword and shield guys as the core to go guys...together with dark riders.
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They were special fandir. They weren't terrible for 10 points a piece, but the other options were just too good. I think their high I plus 3 atks plus poison was good value. If they get ASF now and don't go up more than a point or 2 maybe they will be quite nice. Them being in core is an interesting idea too. If that is true.
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Well 3 attacks per model are good for small units as you pay for those attacks but the second rank only has 1 attack.
I wonder if they finally get Ws 5
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I hope they do, I always felt like 4 was not enough. But if they are moving to core now, maybe not...
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BOOOOO GAMESWORKSHOP BOOOOOO
BOOOOO
BOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Sorry guys I have a baby , and no time to read 41 pages of dark elf banter!
Wat's the summary conclusion on the new Dark Elves , in 5 bullet points ?
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You get three from my perspective:
models are pretty nice looking for the most part
they could be more varied, and warriors/crossbowmen apparently have fixed heads
they're ridiculously expensive.
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Witch Elves are likely Core if you have an army led by a Hag Queen, or somesuch thing.
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Sorry guys I have a baby , and no time to read 41 pages of dark elf banter!
Wat's the summary conclusion on the new Dark Elves , in 5 bullet points ?
REROLLSSSS
overpriced
shit
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Wat's the summary conclusion on the new Dark Elves , in 5 bullet points ?
Dodgy hair styles.
Angry stabby strippers.
Stairs on wheels.
Fearsome whipes.
Still waiting for dark riders.
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Sorry guys I have a baby , and no time to read 41 pages of dark elf banter!
Wat's the summary conclusion on the new Dark Elves , in 5 bullet points ?
Better Spearment
Mardi Gras Floats
Crappy Hydra
Expensive witches
Always Strikes First
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Witch Elves look likely straight core, since that's where they are in the web store. They're also in Rare, so that's where the Sisters of Slaughter will go.
5 points:
Ugly big kits
Average small kits
More like high elf rules
Absurd core price disparity
Mat Ward fluff
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Maybe I'm late but:
(right click and view picture for better resolution)
Black guard and executioners in the back:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AKH5mVNvviE/UkZ2Ig3U1WI/AAAAAAAABhQ/m3QREMJoDoY/s1600/photo.png)
A small part of Dark riders can be seen on the right:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hiFS5lL69jw/UkaCqWjeenI/AAAAAAAABhg/07VOj8fBR5s/s1600/image.jpg)
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If they want Ģ35 for the black guard/executioners too, they are going to be disappointed!
That first picture has a bit of a 'clone wars' thing going on.
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That first picture has a bit of a 'clone wars' thing going on.
They look like push&fit models from a starter set.
But starter sets are cheap and can get away with that.
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That first picture has a bit of a 'clone wars' thing going on.
They look like push&fit models from a starter set.
But starter sets are cheap and can get away with that.
the HE models from the starter set shit all over this released.
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If they want Ģ35 for the black guard/executioners too, they are going to be disappointed!
That first picture has a bit of a 'clone wars' thing going on.
dodgy skull mask execs, and BG which arent as nice as the current ones, or the gamezone ones.
BOOOO
they dont have execs or BG on sale at GW site, and I also just checked wayland games.
If they're Ģ35 for ten, are they more than the "standard" cost of metal special/rare units atm?
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I like the new assassin, though.
At least the pose. It's brilliant.
But IMO, the model itself really lacks proper detail.
I bet I could convert an equivalent of this model out of dark eldar legs, one dark elf torso of any kind, a pair of corsair arms and a bit of plasticard and greenstuff.
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they dont have execs or BG on sale at GW site, and I also just checked wayland games.
They're a part of the second wave.
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they dont have execs or BG on sale at GW site, and I also just checked wayland games.
They're a part of the second wave.
I know, I was trying to check prices on the old/current ones
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The executioners might look better with the old warrior helmets instead of these silly cartoon villain skull masks.
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I'll just use the black guard heads, they fit better with the current execs anyways.... if I get any that is.
Dark Riders look promising from the 2%of the mini I can see, but GW has been rocking cavalry of late so no surprise if they are really nice.
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Those executioner heads look awesome.
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Reading the "5 Bullet Points" I am for some reason reminded of haiku; people need to do that.
Angry strippers stab.
Stairway to heaven for gold.
Wild hair. Fearsome whipes.
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I only got a quick look at the new Executioners on my friend's phone (worked for GW for about 10 years and still is connected) -- I liked the old look with the mail aventail covering the face -- not so sure about the new skull mask. The new black guard looked pretty cool. Warlock riders I wasn't keen on, but could be the paint job, didn't see the dark riders. New Cold One chariot and horse chariot had 1 wheel in the center of the chariot and looked pretty cool from what I could see.
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Cauldrons of orgasmic juice
Lady men with knives.
Giant creatures of sucky sucky,
Hair metal bands
Giant s&m whips
===========================
Ok I think I have a good hold on the new DE book and army!
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I like the black guard guys. They look quite nice.
The executioners masks look utterly stupid. MOAR SKULLS PLEASE.
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I like them. They look like Immortal masks in 300.
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Your taste is weird Phil. There was nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with the old HE warriors. All they needed were a new neater and more elegant version. Instead GW returned to the blocklike 1980 style and they charge you out of your ears for a box of 10 almost non-convertible minis.
Must look that the disasters that are the new BG and Executioners, apparently. The Executioners present look is perfect, no need for change, just switch medium. Why try to make stuff look directly ugly?
The only thing that look good sofar is Shadowblade, the Witch elves (not those sisters of silly mask slaughter) The Cauldron of Blood and.... yeah that is it. Not worth the money anyway. Just not worth the money! And especially not the Dreadspears et al... They look eighties monopose in a way not even the plastic monopose HE spears can do.
However, I fear the HE will go the same way in time. The book about Elven heraldy have monopose Spears looking just like the ones from that 4th ed starter box and the Archers have the same stiff stance. They seem to have some variety with trousers, but still, same undynamic monopose. And since the Empire Heraldy book did show what were to come in the form of long coated troops (the Archers) I think it is safe to say that GW is just reusing older, simpler sculpts with some minor add-ons to hide the fact.
And you still have to pay through the nose. So buy any old Dark elf warrior boxes that still linger around!
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Your taste is weird Phil.
This is true!
:::cheers:::
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The execs look awful, granted we cantbsee them properly,
So the only good thing from the entire release, was the warriors.
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I like most of the new stuff.
Except sisters and executioners, which are lame and seem forced. Like somebody is trying hard to make generic anime villains.
Not too thrilled about the hydra redesign, either. I liked the old style heads better. The new sea beastie looks fine, though.
As everybody said, the main problems of this release are obscene prices and complete lack of variety.
The models are restrictive, almost like starter sets.
IMO, the dark elves are now one of the best looking armies and I was thinking about starting a small army, but the prices are just too much for my pocket.
Maybe if I stumble upon some nice second hand offers in the future. But only maybe.
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The cold one riders and corsairs are way better than all the new releases.
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I love the latest corsair models they are ace.
proof
(http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/12/17/69966_md-Corsairs,%2520Dark%2520Elves%2520Elf.jpg)
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1631/file0138copy.jpg)
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when are they eactually released, btw?
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pictures of the 2e wave.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?380158-Dark-Elves-coming-in-October&p=6934850&viewfull=1#post6934850
I quite like the most of what's coming out.
Really dig the new Cauldron and black guards.
Dark steeds look a little weird but i like the warlocks. (could use a better paint job)
the "old"executioners are waaayyyy better then the new ones. But not bad
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The horses have rabbit teeth! What! ::heretic::
People with tentacle hair.
The chariot really does have one wheel.
Black guard and executioners look worse than the metal ones.
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I quite like the dark riders, minus the rabbit teeth.
The chariot is ok, but looks a bit like its flying? Quite like it.
The black guards are ok, but not really better than the current ones. And not better than the gamezone ones.
Warlocks suck analjuice
The execs are godawful, and not just the skull masks.
Bad overall release. Very bad. Warriors, and dark riders the only real improvement on what was on offer, and my kitbashed dark riders are nice enough. Chariot is nice, but will they see much use?
Basically put me off finishing my DE.
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Isn't that 'elves sacrificing people to save their own souls from Slanesh' a 40K import? I don't remember it being in the old book.
Also, the black guard stole their helmets from the dark eldar.
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I just noticed leg made of sword dude!
Wouldnt that scuttle his pirate ship?
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He'd fall over on soft ground.
Maybe he sticks a cork on the end when he wants to walk somewhere.
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Isn't that 'elves sacrificing people to save their own souls from Slanesh' a 40K import? I don't remember it being in the old book.
Also, the black guard stole their helmets from the dark eldar.
Yeah it is. In the old book they had actual cults dedicated to Slaanesh, Morathi still heads one. Maybe it's a Slaanesh cultist only problem in the new book. Though with Mat Ward anything is unfortunately not merely possible, but probable.
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Cults dedicated to Slaanesh is one thing. But it looks like the warlocks have the dark eldar fluff about needing to save their souls from Slaanesh.
Warhammer Slaanesh doesn't eat souls. He just wants you to have a lot of sex.
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The cult of khaine one click buy all bundle is MORE expensive than just buying the indivual items, for NZ or Canadian website.
Yes, you do not get a discount for bulk purchases, you in fact have to pay GW a convenience tax. After all, it would have taken time and effort to click all those items individually into your basket.
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http://plastickrak.blogspot.co.nz/
more info.
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wow, power of darkness is a great spell.
+1 strength, and +3d power dice If you get 3 dice, take a wound. 8+.
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Squid decals and no more cheaty pendant = positive things!
And I like that they can use all eight colors of magic.
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Cults dedicated to Slaanesh is one thing. But it looks like the warlocks have the dark eldar fluff about needing to save their souls from Slaanesh.
Warhammer Slaanesh doesn't eat souls. He just wants you to have a lot of sex.
Yeah sorry, I wasn't clear. I was agreeing it is a 40k import. You don't have cults to the god trying to eat your soul. 40k DE hate Slaanesh.
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Ah, I misunderstood you!
Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions based on half a line of text in one of those pictures. We'll see though.
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Yeah I read it too. Maybe Warlocks are some sort of cursed Dark Elf slaves who were sacrificed to Slaanesh. Like the male sorcerers or something, they're not supposed to have any of those. I'm sure there will be some ludicrous pain/S&M based fluff justification.
I'm fairly sure Phil Kelly wrote the 40k book while jerking it to Hellraiser.
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Their lore is weird. Power of darkness I really like, and the word of pain, -d3 strength for a 12+? HELL YES. Then the other spells are kinda underwhelming.
The LD hex one might be pretty nice as well actually. No general leadership, and no BSB rerolls, so most things will be testing purely on their own steadfast LD.
Actually, that’s really good.
PoD less good, as has to be on casters unit.
the 40k book about some of their suits of armour having hooks and shit inside so they are constantly hurt.
lolno, mine are just pirates. ARRRRRRRR
Dark eldar are easily the nicest looking army- and for DE the CoK and corsairs are amazing. That’s why I’m so disappointed with this release. The “best” release is an improvement in warriors, which are simply “decent” instead of breath taking.
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The only good miniatures from the 2nd wave are the Black Guards. The actual Dark Riders aren't bad, but the horses ruin the models.
Regarding the Slaanesh fluff, looks like Dark Elves are ready for a Matt Ward style fluff makeover.
Malekith will probably end up having taken a spacehip chariot into the Warp Chaos Wastes to fight Chaos Space Marines Warriors for eternity.
ETA: Also, the magic items and spells of the DE are amazing. 50 points for a better runeblade, 100 points for an unbreakable banner, and the 50 point MR3 ring.
In the Lore of Darkness, I like Doombolt, Word of Pain (pair with Bladewind) and Shroud of Despair.
A very good magic item selection and spell list. And DE can now choose from all of the basic lores.
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Dark Rider horses look kinda weird - not sure about that. Really like the Black Guard and the Executioners. The chariots look like they are floating - could be awesome, could be a bit chuff.
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Wow I didn't think the old angry smiling horses could get any worse. They did!
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Dark Rider horses look kinda weird - not sure about that. Really like the Black Guard and the Executioners. The chariots look like they are floating - could be awesome, could be a bit chuff.
Its actually illegal in 10 states to like those Execs, theyre that bad.
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I love those Executioners.
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It is rare you and I ever agree, Finlay :) I don't think this is going to be the combo-breaker ::heretic::
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Someone needs to go a series of photoshops replacing the sword-peg-leg with different things. I think a corkscrew is indicated.
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I think he should have a leg made out of skullz!
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It is rare you and I ever agree, Finlay :) I don't think this is going to be the combo-breaker ::heretic::
well, your post below this one seems to imply you think swordleg is as stupid as I do.
Then again, probably ruled out by you liking the mardi gras wagons.
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I do like the mardi gras wagons :unsure:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuDwUnhwPAk
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The Black Guard are the only nice models even released at all. Shame they are Ģ35. I don't know this, I just assume.
If they were Ģ15 then I'd look at them. The executioners are shit and they actually managed to ruin the dark riders, some of the only elf models that were awesome.
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The sword-pegleg is utterly stupid. It is also Warhammer as all get out. Stupid is the oil that makes things move in Warhammer.
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flying sky chariot of doom is silly-awesome.
monowheel hover chariot is silly-awesome
swordpegleg is silly.
One thing I failed to mention, the old Execs have those pain in the ass swords, so that's a plus for the new ones I guess.
they still suck. and are over priced.
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The new dark riders will look good on the wood elf horses.
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Maybe we could model a pineapple stuck on the swordpegleg? That would be cool.
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Those horses... For Crying out loud the dark rider horses are supposed to be stolen from the Ellyrians or breed from former Ellyrian steeds. Those look like they are spawns of chaos.
Black Guard looks okay. That is true. The Corsairs are sweet, but they came from a better age, like the Cold one Knights.
The squid decals are ace and will fit with my cothique army.
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Whats the deal with the naked half snake woman? Since when do GW have exposed breasts on models? I thought that was done away with when the metal daemonettes were canned?
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Since when do GW have exposed breasts on models?
Morathi?
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Since when do GW have exposed breasts on models?
Morathi?
But thats an old model as well Rufus, from around the time of the daemonettes isnt it?
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Since when do GW have exposed breasts on models?
Morathi?
But thats an old model as well Rufus, from around the time of the daemonettes isnt it?
It isn't that old. We are talking the one on the Pegasus right? That's probably from around the same time as the Daemonettes.
PS. those were the best Slannesh models GW ever produces, and not just for the breasts.
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Yes they were Clarkarias. They are quite a few years old now though, probably a decade or so! The new ones are 3-4 years old.
I wasn't aware you still posted here!
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hiFS5lL69jw/UkaCqWjeenI/AAAAAAAABhg/07VOj8fBR5s/s1600/image.jpg)
Mardi Gras does come to mind.
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Strange miniature release from GW. I do like that they are willing to re-do old plastic kits though, that's pretty rare.
The Mardi Gras float isn't really any stranger/sillier than Empire's Wizard wagons to me.
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The Mardi Gras float isn't really any stranger/sillier than Empire's Wizard wagons to me.
you're right, and they both suck :)
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Strange miniature release from GW. I do like that they are willing to re-do old plastic kits though, that's pretty rare.
But not unheard of - Empire core infantry comes to mind. On second thought, it also comes to mind as an example that this isn't always a good thing. It was in that case though - the new DE warriors look much better than their older counterparts. Still disappointed with the release as a whole though.
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The VC redid the skeletons, which are ace. Probably my favourite fantasy kit. Got 8 boxes or so of those when I saw them. 40k we just had the Tactical Squad redone when the old one was perfectly fine, if a little weak technically (terrible mould lines). Skaven got redone. Moving toward redoing basic kits is a good thing.
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For the most part, it certainly is! The Skaven are also a good example of reasonably priced infantry. Compare Clan Rats, or hell, even Stormvermin to those new Witch Elves.
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Ebay certainly helps with Skaven!
20 man boxes are good though!
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Yeah. 20 rats, 20 pounds, and I've paid as low as 17,50 or so at some online shops. That's OK! 30 for 20 Stormvermin is also all right. The models are very nice, and there's a ton of stuff on the sprues. 35 pounds for 10 witch elves? Not... quite so good. In fact, I'd go as far as calling it "slightly unreasonable".
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35 pounds for 10 witch elves? Not... quite so good. In fact, I'd go as far as calling it "slightly unreasonable".
It's not unreasonable at all, you're just too poor, stupid, and whiny to accept the true cost of 10 high quality plastic miniatures. After all, no one's forcing you to buy them, you whiner. GW is a strong and independent company, and can charge you what it likes for the world's best miniatures. If you don't like it, you can go back to Whine Island, Captain Whinge.
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I wouldn't have an issue with the witch elf prices, but the models are dog ugly.
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(http://i.imgur.com/GN21GaX.png)
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So I guess there are more rumours about the Dark Elf rules?
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No, Krokz picture is a scan from the Army Book. They are streamlining in anticipation of 8th.
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:biggriin:
well played.
If this stuff is true Dark Elves will remain top tier in tournaments.....
via Geruchteckuche
http://www.magabotato.de/tabletop/it...n-erste-bilder
Sisters of Slaughter: WS 6, I 6, A 2 and a 4++ ward.
via Jossy on Druchii.net
Black Guard are ItP, ASF, Eternal hatred, Stubbord, Murderess prowess
Stats are 5, 5, 4, 3, 3, 1, 6, 2, 9
War Hydra is 180 points including fiery roar. Interesting the WD description talks about a lashing tail and poisoned tipped claws (possible upgrades IMO). The WD describes the War Hydra being able to regain wounds during the game, and then goes on to say its like an improved regeneration rule.
Dreadspears are 9ppm with Shield and spear, whilst rptxbows are 12ppm.
All Dark Elves all have ASF, Hatred (High Elves), and murderess prowess special rules
Witchelves also have Frenzy, and Poisoned attacks ontop of ASF, Hatred (HE) and MP.
The frenzy is increased to +2 attacks with the CoB apparently (unconfirmed)
The CoB also magnifies murderous prowess - reroll all failed to wound rolls instead of just 1's
A High Beastlord has the ability to boost nearby monster units. Unsure of how. Presumably you can still get a beastlord hero as the High beastlord is a lord option.
The Medusa can be taken on a mount (bloodwrack throne) or on foot (er tail)
On foot it is 90ppm and is selected from the rare option, has some sort of shooting attack with kb
I am surprised and happy to see the return of points values in WD battle reports :mrgreen:
Edit: Hellbron is included in the CoB model. Yes Plastic Hellbron, alongside a Bloodwrack Medussa, and a Hag...
I forgot to add, I've had confirmation that Black Guard are on stock run down. That means only one thing...
The WD also supports this as it mentions several times the "total redesign" of the Dark Elves, with only the CoK and Corsairs being 'sacred'
More via Druchii.net
The Hydra btw lost its Regeneration. Has the ability to get Lifepoints back. It has d3 attacks + 1 attack for each lifepoint and will cost 160 points. (Without breath)
cauldron of blood will have a +5 Ward for the Unit its placed inside. It also gives Frenzy (Rage or what ever it is in english) if the Unit already has it, they will get 2 attackes instead of one.
It also gives something in a range of 6" around the CoB. But forgot what it is sorry.
The Medusa will have an ability to force Initative tests with models in base contact. And it has Killing blow as a Range attack. I think it was 3 Attacks.
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Well, 99% of those things are known from last month:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/new-dark-elves-from-book.html
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Then post em MAN!
Re rolls to hit and wound sound like DE will make lots of friends.
Oh boy......
they are back en route to power creep.
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They seem to be nice army now with plenty of viable combinations and nothing straight out overpowered. On pair with HE, maybe slightly better but nothing to fear about. After all, Matt Ward wrote the book and not Cruddace. . ;)
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They are the same cost as High Elves with even more special rules and better magical items.
Spears are 9 points as HE but also re roll 1s to wound
Dark riders the same compared to ellyrian reavers but they can also get shields and remain fast cav with a 4+ save. etc.
Corsairs will be rather good with 4+ armour save 2 attacks
from core to rare lots of nice choices.
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The best way to write an army book is to include as many special rules as possible! 5th edition style.
On the plus side, maybe 9th edition will be like 6th, and get rid of all this crap for a while.
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Yes I hope so...and proper allied rules and more "REAL" scenarios in the different battles...I wouldnīt mind victory points on the table that can only be occupied by core infantry.
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Witchelves also have Frenzy, and Poisoned attacks ontop of ASF, Hatred (HE) and MP.
The frenzy is increased to +2 attacks with the CoB apparently (unconfirmed)
Cauldron of Blood also lets you reroll wounds in close combat, right?
Witches get (with super frenzy and AHW), 4 attacks each, reroll attacks, reroll wounds, poison, all at WS5.
At least they're only S3. Unless Mindrazor.
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Witchelves also have Frenzy, and Poisoned attacks ontop of ASF, Hatred (HE) and MP.
The frenzy is increased to +2 attacks with the CoB apparently (unconfirmed)
Cauldron of Blood also lets you reroll wounds in close combat, right?
Witches get (with super frenzy and AHW), 4 attacks each, reroll attacks, reroll wounds, poison, all at WS5..
And now we know why there kit is more expensive
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Everyone loves rerolling loads and loads of dice.
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Well they will finally be at least a competetive choice but Spears, Corsairs and even the sword and shield guys will be very good too.
The Cauldron of blood and witch elves will be seen rather often though I guess....and excecutioners.....at least no re roll to hit but re roll to wound with S5-6 (with the rather great +1 S spell).
Dark Elves will be tough as nails....at least they donīt have great cannons....but can easily field 4+ S7 bolt throwers some of them mounted on chariots.
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Rbts dropped points and move to special. Can have four in an army.
Plus scourge runners
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which are leagues better than the HE counterparts.
Well they are HE++ so at least there shouldnīt be any whining from DE players.
Dwarves and Wood Elves supposedly next armies right before 9th edition cancels their army books :engel:
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The best way to write an army book is to include as many special rules as possible! 5th edition style.
On the plus side, maybe 9th edition will be like 6th, and get rid of all this crap for a while.
Only for the first few books [typically empire] then everyone else will start getting shiny added back.
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Man, I wish I had some kind of engine which turned pre-emptive negativity into gold . . .
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Its not pre-emptive negativity. Its the harsh truth that GW traditionally in every edition of every game they release have a power creep curve. The newer books are nearly always on a curve upwards with more shinier rules, better stats for the points etc.
You get a book first or second in an edition and it will not be at the top of the power curve come the end of the edition.
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Well they have some hiccups during those newer army syndrome lists....but traditionally DE, Skaven and Demons are on the upper end of the power level.
So far they are on mark...even though I think Demons are rather well balanced....even HE even though they have some annoying rules are defeatable with Empire and the other also rather good books.
DE just being better at everything HE do...at the same or lower costs is something sad.
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DE just being better at everything HE do...at the same or lower costs is something sad.
I find that hilarious. :icon_razz:
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Its not pre-emptive negativity.
Of course it is. It is a negative prediction before the facts are seen. That is the very definition of the thing.
The fact it is done based on precedent doesn't change that a jot.
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DE just being better at everything HE do...at the same or lower costs is something sad.
I find that hilarious. :icon_razz:
There never will be an army book....the Moot....which is sad too.
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Its not pre-emptive negativity.
Of course it is. It is a negative prediction before the facts are seen. That is the very definition of the thing.
The fact it is done based on precedent doesn't change that a jot.
Except we've got the facts.
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You get a book first or second in an edition and it will not be at the top of the power curve come the end of the edition.
Or at the beginning of the power curve. The most powerful armies throughout 8th edition were 7th edition armies: Skaven and Dark Elves.
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Its not pre-emptive negativity.
Of course it is. It is a negative prediction before the facts are seen. That is the very definition of the thing.
The fact it is done based on precedent doesn't change that a jot.
If it is based on facts, then its just predicting what will happen. Its not being overly negative.
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Note that i) I never said "overly" and ii) the arguments about what 9th ed will be like are made completely absent proof.
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It's not unreasonable at all, you're just too poor, stupid, and whiny to accept the true cost of 10 high quality plastic miniatures. After all, no one's forcing you to buy them, you whiner. GW is a strong and independent company, and can charge you what it likes for the world's best miniatures. If you don't like it, you can go back to Whine Island, Captain Whinge.
:eusa_clap:
:biggriin:
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It seems to me like most every book that comes out, the people who play the book say that it has been ruined and the people who have to play against it say it is broken. For a while. Until plenty of playing has happened and then the opinions usually balance out a bit more.
The Dark Elf may turn out to be rediculous, but until it has been played some, it's rather hard to tell. Sounds like a lot of the stuff has got better, for sure, but the points have mostly gone up too. Which makes me think that they have moved to being a slightly more elite army like High Elves. Makes sense. I always felt I was able to throw things around a bit too easily without worrying. Now my more expensive spearmen might have to think a bit more before charging into tough situations.
Either way, I'm not going to make up my mind how the book is till I have it in my hands... and even then I need to play some games to see how it really works.
People went on and on about how Empire troops going up in costs was terrible and how having the cost of synergy built into the points was nonsense as that relied on too many factors. From what I have seen though in my own and other's games is that actually, those synergies can be pretty amazing and that the troops aren't that overcosted in the end. So I will wait till things settle to get too opinionated...
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Siby...I for my part can do some mathhammer and compare unit choices between different books if models have the same stats or better for the same value of points ....I can understand that they are great choices.
I also know that with re rolls to hit and to wound elite units like Executioners have a close to 80 % chance to wound with every strike so a unit with regular frontage 5 wide will inflict 9 wounds on 10 attacks.
Which is insanely good....and on top of that they will strike at I of 5.
Well ...will other armies still win...sure but they WILL be top tier again.
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They still are very prone to shooting. Infantry is still slow and expensive. With this new elf books maybe Mortar will come back :D Everything has got theirs pros and cons. Some units can only be seen as a single units and others as crap but they have great synergy potential.
Some would argue Halberdiers are crap when they came out but their synergies with the rest of the army moves them to top tier infantry.
Dark elves book maybe high tier, but can't tell that now. What is known for sure is that it brings DE army closer to the middle: no pendant, worst dagger, hydra that is not an auto include, increased point costs across the board.
And btw, Couldron is 300 points. It is very expensive to go that way and then get cannon balled.
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Note that i) I never said "overly" and ii) the arguments about what 9th ed will be like are made completely absent proof.
GW's writers are almost completely incapable of writing rules that aren't imbalanced in some way. DE rules are confirmed to follow this trend. It's not pre-emptive negativity, it's just negativity, and justified at that.
People talking about 9th ed. are just speculating/wishing for things. Though it shouldn't be necessary to clarify this when talking about an edition that there is no information about. Unless you're unreasonably anal about that sort of thing.
Or at the beginning of the power curve. The most powerful armies throughout 8th edition were 7th edition armies: Skaven and Dark Elves.
That's because of loopholes and anomalies stemming from outdated rules, though, which is forgivable.
I hope 9th edition will feature a Ravening Hordes-style book to prevent this, except not temporary.
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Those are bullshit arguments they come at T3 and 5+ save...that is rather good for core infantry.
Yes they took a hit and lost some candy...like Empire but they got new candy....the sac dagger is still fantastic and there are very few items that can generate power dice in 8th.
DE got a spell and the sac dagger to still have an amazing magic phase.
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T3 and 5+ is good for core infantry? Average at best.
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Concerning endurance, yes. T3 and 5+ is average. Concerning damage output they'll be fantastic. ASF and reroll 1s to wound as standard is unparalleled.
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I think maybe the point that was trying to be made is that they are extremely susceptable to death before reaching combat even. Other low armour troops are usually cheaper so losses are ok cos there is more of them. Other elite troops are usually better protected so their small numbers are not so much of an issue. Even small things like handgunners or outriders could rip a large hole in these guys before they make combat. So whilst they are killing machines, they do have weaknesses...
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Most core are T3 6+ or no save
Heavy armour for core units is rare light armour and shield too.
But by no means are they weak or soft.
Best core has T4 and 4+/3+ save but they are the toughest of the bunch...depicting Elves as ultra soft and weak ...well it isnīt a good argument.
Especially if you compare special rules of other T3 5+ models and point values with them
Empire swords come at 7 points T3 5+ compare them to 9 points T3 5+ dark elf spears and those 2 points uppidity look great.
Greatsword infantry striking at I...that is very high is also very good.
ASF and reroll 1s to wound as standard is unparalleled.
re rolling those 1s basically for free ...as mentioned HE spears are the same cost with one special rule less...and no buff wagon in the list...and no sig spell that adds +1 S while generating d3 power dice while it is at it.
They wonīt be mid field..they will be top of the pop of 8th edition books and will compare to the other king of the hill skaven.
Also they will be able to make rather fast armies that will hit like a ton of bricks.
Dark Riders...Cold one Riders, Chariots and Beasties.
Dark Riders another amazing choice.....
same as Reavers but with extra rules and a better shooting weapon....I hope repeater crossbows at least arenīt armour piercing any longer otherwise Dark Riders with spears and repeater crossbows will be ultra amazing.
This murder thingy hopefully is in cc only too.
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Most core are T3 6+ or no save
You mean the one for 7 points or less? That is the whole point. Every wound in DE infantry is fragile and costly.
Compering anything to Greatswords if wrong in any circumstance because they just suck. Not even an argument :)
Cold ones will be amazing (they are no Demigryphs dough!). They will hit and wound everything on the charge. Easy fix - don't let em charge you. Stop the whine and adept your tactics.
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I am not whining....I just state that Dark Elves will continue to be one of the strongest armies which if the rumours are true...they certainly will be. Doesnīt mean I wonīt kick their ass it will just remain as hard.
Excuses of DE players how hard it will be to win with them...how much tactical finesses is needed though is kind of....hmmm funny.
Thing is I was very happy that Empire got toned down 8th edition ...there still is lots of potential for very hard builds but compared to 7th edition they lost immensly. I had hoped they would do the same to Skaven and Dark Elves.
But I donīt mind too much...I like playing with the underdog army and pull out a win. My point of underlining how good the new DE will be is...using the stronger army and then claiming superior skill ....hmmm tastes odd.
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Or at the beginning of the power curve. The most powerful armies throughout 8th edition were 7th edition armies: Skaven and Dark Elves.
That's because of loopholes and anomalies stemming from outdated rules, though, which is forgivable.
How is that forgivable? Shouldn't GW have written 8th edition in light of the army books they had released? Or at least corrected the problems from the previous army books in a FAQ.
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Personally, I don't think Empire are an underdog army.
Seems like everyone wants to feel like they have the underdog army. The only ones I can really sympathize with to an extent are armies like wood elves, for whom the rules changes in this edition have weakened most all of their special rules and advantages...
Empire are up to date, have great synergies, tonnes of ways to play them, strong in all phases... and cannons! :-P
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Empire is midfield...
Beasts of Chaos, Wood Elves, Bretonnians, Orcs and Goblins are the underdogs as it is right now.
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I think O&G as underdogs is a bit harsh as of late too... they have been winning and placing at tournies as they are a good answer to the other top armies like WoC. Not saying they are top, but they are better than bottom tier...
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Everybody likes to think they are at least a tier below where they are.
The Empire are a top tier army [but try telling that to anybody on this site :)]
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O&G have lots of special rules too ....but most of them work against them...also they donīt have access to the brb spells as DE will be able to.
Commandante do you even play tournaments?
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From time to time when I feel like it.
They tend to annoy me though because of general silliness.
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You mean when the other guy has artillery too? :engel:
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Nah, I was playing against a guy who insisted that his guys had LoS against my guy buy my guys didn't against his in the following formation
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
tree tree
yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
I couldn't really understand it but you know, tourney-logic is even worse than moon logic
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Well most likely he lied....call in a judge and roll with it.
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Empire are not that good, and orcs are even worse.
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If rumours with point costs are too fishy I will delete them or a mod can delete my post.
Army Wide Rules:
All Dark Elves (but not mounts/monsters/aliens...) have the following special rules:
- ASF (every elf)
Hatred against HE
- murderous prowess allows Dark Elves to re-roll 1′s to wound in melee.
Magic: Dark Elf have access to all eight lores now!
HEKARTIS BLESSING: +1 to Cast Dark Magic
- attribute spiteful conjuration and does extra wounds to enemies that have spells cast on them. Target takes 2d6 s1 AP hits if roll doubles while casting and 3d6 if triples are rolled.
- Signature 1 PoD goes off on a 8+ and grants own unit +1 strength till own next magic phase. Gain D3 power dice but if you gain 3 power dice this way the wizard suffers a wound with no saves allowed, you still can take regen and ward saves against the wound suffered.
- Signature 2 Doombolt 12+ MM 18 2D6 S5, or 24+ for 4D6 S5.
- Spell 1 Chillwind 5+ MM 24 2D6 S2, if wounds, -1 BS till own next magic phase.
- Spell 2 WoP 9+ hex 24D3 to WS and BS till own next magic phase. Or 12+ for D3 S and I too.
- Spell 3 Bladewind 9+ 24, all models test WS or get S4 AP.
- Spell 4 Shroud of Despair 10+ all units within 12 lose Hold your Ground & Inspiring presence (<=> general & BSB) till own next magic phase. If fail Ld, gets -1 Ld till own next magic phase.
- Spell 5 Soul stealer 11+ small template direct damage at 18, scatters, S2 no armour. For each wound, 4+ on D6 grows one wound to caster, max 10. Or 36 for 14+.
- Spell 6 Arnzipals Black Horror 15+ vortex, move proportionate to wizards level. S test or die, ward save allowed. 25+ for large template.
Magic items:
- Hydra Blade 100pts, D6+1 attacks, Ldtest at -2, if fails, gets -5 to WS but gains heroic KB.
- Chillblade 50pts, autowound, if unsaved wound, T test or loses 3A (1 minimum) till next CC phase.
- B. dragon egg 50pts. one use, S6, T6, and S2 breath with no armour save.
- Cloak of Twilight 50pts. 3++ against shooting & spells. KB and D3 multiple wounds in 1st round of CC.
- Black Amulet 60pts 4++. If saves during a challenge, inflicts 1 wound to opponent, no armour save.
- RoH 50pts. MR(3). Spells cast within 6 miscasts on double 1 & double 6. Wording is ambiguous to tell whether it is the wizard or the target at 6, although target is not unlikely.
- BoN 100pts. Unbreakable. HE Shadow warriors within 12 are unbreakable, too.
- Gem of spite, 35pts. Arcane. If miscast, all enemy wizards within 12 suffer S6 or lose a DD.
- Sac dagger 25pts. Arcane. (kill one model and get 50% chances of new PD, - repeat as many times as you wish until you get the new PD).
- ToFurion 25pts. Arcane. Pick up one spell rather than random (Dark Magic only).
Loss of Hydra banner, loss of SSS. No PoK. No more FF.
Khaine blessings are confirmed.
Now assasin and Death Hags use different things, former is 3 kinds of poison, latter is 3 kinds of gift. They can only take one from the three. Shadowblade and Hellebron have all 3 kinds at the same time.
poison for Assassins:
- black lotus (15pts): for each unsaved wound suffered by the character, he gets a cumulative -1LD - include ranged
- dark venom (20 pts): KB
- manbane (20 pts): +1 bonus to wound rolls
gift of Khaine for Death Hags:
- cry of war: cause fear, and all fear test made by the enemy unit in base contact with the hag suffer -3LD
- rune of khaine: this model gains +D3 attacks
- witchbrew (30 pts): she and her unit get frenzy. If they already have frenzy, they become super-frenzy with +2A, but the unit suffer -3LD when testing not to charge. This works on any unit the WE has joined.
Lords and Heroes:
Dreadlord 140pts - can ride dragon - can use SDC
Heroes 75pts can ride Manticore - can use SDC
- Master can be BSB, and can take any mount and still be BSB
Master can ride Dark Steed, Cold One, Dark pegasus, Manticore or CoC.
DE Sorceress 185pts Lvl3, 80pts Lvl1
- an ride DS/CO/pegasus, and, for Lvl3/4, manti & dragons
- no longer able to cast more than 6 dice.
Black Arc Fleetmaster. Lord.
- The fleetmaster is 155pts with stats of 566433739.
- He has two hand weapons, light armour and a sea dragon cloak.
- (Dreadlord with the same base loadout as Fleetmaster would be 4 points cheaper, and get 1ws, 1i, 1a, and 1ld better).
- He can take 50 points of magic items.
- He has a special rule called "show no weakness" that means if he's fighting in a challenge or killed a character and is still alive, the unit he is with becomes unbreakable till the end of that turn!
High Beastmaster Lord Level Character which costs 300pts,
- must take either a manticore or Scourgerunner chariot, which are included in the points.
- His stats are 577433839 and is equipped with a spear, light armour and a sea dragon cloak. No other option.
- He can take 100 points of magic items and has a special rule called "beastslaver" which means at the start of each of your turns, you can choose a friendly monster within 3'', and that monster will get +D3 attacks until the start of your next turn. (Mentioned once a Flying Monster Box (Wrath) plastic x 1 + Option PE, Beastmaster, Sorceress)
Death Hag 85pts "naked" hero.
- can take 50pts magic weapon (only weapon)
- can become BSB, even with COB.
Assassins - 90pts with poison attack. Counts as hero.
- Stats 5994321038, ItP, a killer not a leader (cant be general, unit cant use his Ld)
- (may hide in unit, can be revealed at beginning of your movment or in any CC phase)
They start with hand weapon and thrown weapons. They can upgrade to additional hand weapon (2) or handbow (5). They have access to up to 50 points of magic items and also have the option to upgrade to one of three special poisons. One gives +1 to wound, one gives killing blow, and the other causes LD-1 for the rest of the game on a successful to wound roll.
- assassins have access to 50pts magic items except armour. Rending stars are now "Thrown weapons" under BRB equipment.
Same special characters as before.
Malekith 510pts on foot. Not much change to his rules, now the circlet grants him an bonus dice if failed his casting/dispelling attempts once per magic phase. GW: He is an accomplished sorcerer and is all but immune to mundane weapons.
Morathi. less than 400 pts
- Morathi can now generate spells from Death, Shadow and Dark. She knows 4 spells total -and- she nominates how many spells she knows from each school then generate them as usual.
- She adds d3 to all her casting roll in addition to Hekarti's Blessing
- GW: Morathi has access to all the spells in the Lore of Dark Magic and is a useful addition to your Dark Elf army. She is able to unleash a freezing wind against your foes, or drag their troops into one of the infernal regions. Should any of your enemies get close to her, then while they're stood agape at her beauty, she'll literally steal hearts and leave them as a bloodied mess.
She gets both lance and sword simultaneously.
Hellebron
- She now has paired weapons.
- S10 and all 1's to hit ->her<- makes that opponent suffer a S4 hit for every 1 rolled
- Any spells that directly target her unit you have a +4 to dispel on.
Shadowblade. 245 pts
- GW: Able to hide within regiments on the battle field, and even move between them, no opponent can predict when or where he will strike.
- Dance of Doom: 5+ ward save
- Master of Disguise: can deploy using the Hidden special rule. He can change which unit he is hiding in at the start of any movement or close combat phase. If an opponent has an ability that forces you state that there are hidden models within a unit, you only need to say that Shadowblade is hiding within a unit, but not which unit he is currently within.
- Has the 3 poisons
- Heart of Woe: Enchanted item. if he is slain, centre the small template over him before taking the model. Every model touched by the template takes a S3 hit.
- Potion of Diabolic Strength: Enchanted item. One use only. At the start of any player's close combat phase, after revealing the assassins, he gets +4 strength until the end of the turn.
Malus - he has been upgraded to dreadlord (3 wounds).
- now the daemon gives him +1 to WS,S,T,I and frenzy. Any to hit roll of 1 hits a friendly model in base contact.
- Still removes stupidity from CO.
Kouran 180ps hero, stats of 596432739 and if he joins a unit of Black Guard they become unbreakable. He has a magic weapon called Crimson Death which grants +2 strength, and has a 5+ armour save from the Armour of Grief, which also creates a strength 5 hit against his attacker if he is hit.
Tullaris 155pts hero, stats 566432739. When he joins a unit of Executioners, they become frenzied. He has a magic great weapon which is called the First Draich. It gives him improved (5+) Killing Blow special rule.
Lokhir, 235pts slv, has "show no weakness" rule like the fleetmaster. Daring leap means if he is not in a challenge, he can direct his attack to any character that is in the same fight, even if he does not have base contact. Merciless slaver means if an enemy unit breaks from a fight including him, all panic tests caused by the break suffer -1LD. Red blades is a pair which give him reroll failed rolls to wound, and Kraken Helm gives him +1AS, regeneration and terror. he is 566432739
Note: Rumoured blisters for Corsair character, Executioner character, Black Guard character must be Tullaris, Kouran & new generic peg leg corsair character.
Mounts:
Black Dragon at 300pts. Dreadlord with Heavy Armour and a Shield on a Black Dragon costs 449 points.
- GW: riders of these gigantic beasts are the Dreadlords and Sorceresses of Naggaroth
Manticore 150pts.
- heroes can ride them. GW: steeds for the lords of Naggaroth. Beastmasters often ride these majestic beasts themselves.
- Flying and Killing Blow, large target and terror.
- uncontrollable: at the start of each friendly turn, take a Ld test. If failed, it gets frenzy till the start of the next turn.
- upgrade: iron hard skin = Scaly Skin 4+
- upgrade: Blind Rage (+d3 attacks, but opponents have +1 to hit the manticore).
Dark Pegasus. - 50 pts
- sorc can ride them.
Cold One. - Still stupid.
Cold one chariot for 120 pts, for MAsters & Dreadlords.
Dark Steed. - Dark Elf Steeds have the special rule: fast cavalry. M9.
Cauldrons of Blood still come out of Hero slots. Naked DH + Cauldron 275p.
- chariot which can join units, but needs not to. The need to be placed in the centre of the front rank is the only requirement.
- classed as a chariot so d6 st6 impact hits
- M5, can march, 5W, 5T, not a large unit
- 4++ for the COB itself
- 6++ (5++ in case of witchelves or DH) for the Unit it is placed inside.
- Strength of Khaine Grants re-roll to wound to all friendly models with MP within 6" (yes models not units)
- Fury of Khaine, bound spell 3+: Frenzy special rule to one unit within 12" (grants +1A to alread frenzied units, not cumulative with witchbrew)
(note: all command groups are 10 pts each, as usual now)
Core:
Spear (Dreadspears) 9pts per model with auto-Shield - 10+
- A single spear unit can take 25pts banner
Sword (Bleakswords) 9pts per model with auto-shield, nothing special - 10+
- A single sword unit can take 25pts banner
Witch Elves - 11pts per model - 10+
- a single WE unit can take a magical banner up to 50 pts,
- minimum unit size might be 10.
- have Frenzy, and Poisoned attacks on top of ASF, Hatred (HE) and MP.
The frenzy is increased to +2 attacks with the CoB
- I6
- there's no "khainites" rule now. you can freely mix, but one more thing should be care. If you take a character other than death hag or hellebron or assasins (including shadow blades) into the witches, at the end of each of your turns you have to roll a D6. 4+ means nothing, but 1-3 your character suffers D6 s3 hits by mad women. It's called madness of khaine.
Corsairs (confirmed core) 9pts per model (but 2pts AHW/RHB option seems mandatory) - 10+
- stats unchanged. A single corsair unit can take 25pts banner.
- +2pts for AHW or +2pts for AHW.
- SDC is now a 5+ scaly skin
- handbow becomes 12'', no other change, i.e. not AP.
Crossbow (Darkshards) 12pts per model, +2 for shields. - 10+
- Normal Repeater Crossbows remain the same: AP.
- A single RXB unit can take 25pts banner
Dark Riders (seems still core) - 16pts per model with light armour - 5+
- + 1pts for shield, +3 pts for crossbow.
- DR can have both light armour and shield without losing fast cavalry.
- No magic banner allowed.
Special:
Harpies - 15pts and do not have any special rule except for fly - 5+
- no command group.
Shades 16pts per model, will keep models as they are now - 5+
- hand weapon and repeater crossbow, no armour.
- Can take great weapon or two hand weapons for 2pts/per model.
- can have musician and standard bearer, but no magic standard.
Executioners - 12pts per model - 10+
- ASF + ASL = Striking on Initiative - Still S4 => S6 with weapon
- all units can take magical banners up to 50 pts,
- Keep KB, do NOT Inflict D3 Wounds
- Execs do not have such "Madness of Khaine" as WE have. Characters can join them freely.
Black Guard (Special) - 15pts per model - 10+
- ItP, Stubborn, Eternal hatred to all enemies, that means reroll all failed rolls to hit every round.
- Stats are 5, 5, 4, 3, 3, 1, 6, 2, 9 - Strength 3 => 4 with weapon - apparently, no longer capped at 20 max
- all units can take magical banners up to 50 pts,
Cold one Knights 30pts per model - 5+
- WS5 M7 A1 I6 S4 L9
- Cold ones have two attacks S4, they dont have the lizardmans cold one rule. The CO dont have the army-wide rule.
- all units can take magical banners up to 50 pts,
Cold one Chariots 115 pts (or 120 pts as mounts for characters)
- Cold ones have two attacks, unchanged otherwise. (D6+1 impact as before).
Scourgerunner , 150pts
- Special - Pulled by horses, with harpoon launcher.
- chariot with D6 impact.
- It has a profile of S4 T4 W4 with a 5+AS, M9, and two crew with spear and repeater crossbow.
- It has a harpoon launcher, BS4, which is like a bolt thrower but more powerful. It has S7, 24'' range, and cause D3 wounds, however if a monster suffers any wounds from it, "it is immediatly dragged D6" towards the firer..."; it does not specify facing when dragged. If the D6 roll is greater than 3, the monster will suffer an additional wound with no armour save allowed.
- Only the Beastmaster may take it as a mount.
Reaper bolt throwers: 70pts, special,
- RBT is one per slot, but you can take four of them.
- No other change except it gained the armour piercing rule for multishot instead of -1 AS it had before.
- GW: this war machine fires a hail of barbed bolts at an enemy unit. Alternatively the weapon can be re-configured to fire one single missile the size of a spear.
Hydra 160pts before BW.
- M6 WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W5 I2 A(3+remaining wounds) Ld6, 4+AS,
- + 20pts for flame strength 4 fiery roar breath attack
- + 20pts for a 8'' shooting with multiple shots=remaining wounds, s=remaining wounds.
- A is equal to number of remaining wounds +3 (previously mentioned +d3, and Max 5).
- Thunderstomp.
- Lost regen, Can get wounds back: at the end of your phase (your turn only) if it still alive, roll the number of dice equals the lost wounds. every 4+ it regain a wound.
- No handler rules, handlers serve only for presentation. Not mentioned as a sea creature. The War Hydra has 6 heads.
Rare:
Kharybdyss (Kraken) 160pts
- M6 WS5 BS0 S7 T5 W5 I4 A5 Ld6, 4+AS.
- If all attacks hit, it deals an additional d6 s7 attacks. Feast of Bones is only if all attacks are directed against a single model, yes model not unit, and if all normal attacks hit as well!
- Scaly skin, Terror
- reroll successful LD for those in base contact (abyssal howl). A unit is only immune to its effects if the majority of its models have fear, terror and ItP. Therefore useless against: Undead, Demons, Monsters, Stupid units, Frenzied units
- poison, Thunderstomp.
- No handler rules, handlers serve only for presentation. Not mentioned as a sea creature.
Doomfire Warlocks (Rare) - 25pts per model - 5+
- ride Dark Steeds (M9), with 1 close combat weapon
- Warlocks are fast cavalry in the rare slot
- stats of 544431528. They are only equipped with hand weapons, but have a 4+ ward save except for wounds caused by models with the mark of Slaanesh or are daemons of Slaanesh.
- no magic banner authorized, only champion as command group.
- The unit is considered to be a level 2 wizard which is used like Pink Horrors. When you cast a spell, you nominate which model is doing it, for line of sight and distance. They get +1 to cast for each extra rank except for the first, to a maximum of +3. They know two spells. One is doombolt from the Dark Elves deck, and the other is Soulblight from the lore of Death.
- They can channel. Nothing prevents them to cast the boosted version of their spells.
- miscasts are handled as per horror rules (takes d3 wounds instead of applying a miscast result, e.g. you do not roll on the miscast table at all); fixed d3 wounds, with no armour save allowed (but ward saves are allowed).
- Fluff: warlocks have been cursed by Malekith, if they dont find and kill the innocence, their souls will be taken by Slaanesh.
Sisters of Slaughter - 15pts per model, with shield and hand weapon - 10+
- 564331629 and a 4++ ward (only in close combat).
- every close combat phase it can choose an enemy unit in base contact. they lose parry and rank bonus in combat result.(still can steadfast). if any enemy model in base contact with them have highter WS or S(before weapon matters), they get +1 to hit and wound rolls.- can have a magic banner up to 50pts.
- all units can take magical banners up to 50 pts,
- They are not Khainites, they're arena fighters. GW: The Sisters of Slaughter are experts in deadly hand to hand fighting. Taken from the gladiatorial arenas of Nagarroth, they fight with a murderous prowess.
Medusa 90pts
- either on the bloodthrone (Bloodwrack Shrine), or on foot (er, tail) on 50x50 base.
- Avert Your Gaze!: start of close combat, before challenges, models in base contact must pass a I test or take a S4 hit with KB and no armour saves, it counts as a magical attack.
- monstrous infantry S4 T4 3 Attacks. ASF. No armour.
- Bloodwrack Shrine = medusa's mount. 175pts with medusa.
- is a chariot which may march and can join units. M5, D6+1 impact.
- MR (1) terror. 6+ armour save.
- (aura of agony) gives +1Ld to units of this AB, -1Ld to everything else at 6.
- Blooswrack stare: ->magical<- range 12", S4, KB and multiple shots (4). When rolling to wound, substitute the target's T with it's I value. No armour saves allowed.
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If the point costs for execs are true.....I donīt want to hear a single mentioning of expensive and fragile.
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alternate exec models? new ones suck, old ones have stupid swords to pin
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Hmmm....just use Swordmasters.
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Yes, Execs seem halfway decent for 12 points.
A bit expensive and fragile, but I guess playable.
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Well after a couple of years you might learn to master them. You just have to make sure you dont advance them with the rear facong the enemy.
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How much better will they be than swordsmasters? I don't often face high elves. Do swordsmasters cost a chunk more?
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I think no one uses swordmasters!
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Do I see this right? Death Hag with witch brew, join them, shazaam, much better swordmasters. Costs 115 to pull off admittedly, but so what? They start 3 pts cheaper than swormasters...
:-D
Erm, I assume Execs have 1A base, right? right?
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Yes they compare to white lions who are too cheap too. But at 12 pts they make baby chaos warriors cry.
Dark riders are similarily laughable 19 pts with spears and armour piercing repeater crossbows is insanely godd.
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Sample list from:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/
2499
10 drops
LORDS:
Lv.4 Supreme Sorc, Tome = 245
Dark Magic
HEROES:
Hag BSB, Fencers, Cauldron = 335
CORE:
34x Witch Elves, FC, Razor Standard = 449
5x Black Riders, Shield, RXB, Mus = 110
5x Black Riders, Shield, RXB, Mus = 110
SPECIAL:
30x Executioners, FC, Eternal Flame = 400
4x RBT = 280
RARE:
5x Warlocks = 125
5x Warlocks = 125
K-dyss = 160
K-dyss = 160
This would give a nice fight.
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well all the amazing things I mentioned...but I think he tries to make the witch elves work even though they are not one of the better choices.
What I would definately include is one or two pegasus heroes. I guess the pegasus still gets +1 S on the charge so for the same points... like so many things ...is better than the eagle, also the heroes have access to the sea dragon cloak...so can get a 2+ save on top of wielding great weapons or 1+ with lances without a magic item.
Impressive.
Cheap.
Awesome.
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Violins for the high elf player! :icon_razz:
Is a sea dragon cloak + light armour the same as full plate? If so, that's stupid. It's a cloak!
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It is scaly skin 5+ supposedly...so with heavy armour (to which they should have access) it is 3+...best armour in the game.
Huzzah!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TPMEoM-cjc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TPMEoM-cjc)
just replace waitresses by High Elves....
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That's really stupid then.
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Yes but hey they are blasting 15 points more expensive than our captains and get + ws, bs, I, Ld, also ASF, re rolling 1s to wound
well they are only T3 so they are ultra fragile...but not on the Pegasus they even come with heavier armour than chaos warriors...well even heavier than dwarves...trololololol.......
what are those guys who make the army books thinking?
should I play the violins for all other army books out there?
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I feel disinclined to finish painting my dark elves.
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You wouldn't ever have to sulk anymore. Just gloat!
:-D
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Paint em and play them they will be more fun than Dwarves (at least until end of year when the new dwarves come out) you can even play mediocre lists if you donīt go for all the candy choices that are sugar coated with a cherry on top.
Pegasus Heroes
Executioners
Corsairs
Dark Riders
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How is that forgivable? Shouldn't GW have written 8th edition in light of the army books they had released? Or at least corrected the problems from the previous army books in a FAQ.
Yeah they probably should. The difference is that ordinary power creep is deliberate, I guess.
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(http://baddice.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/HEvsDE.png)
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We already got that one :-P
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Huh, must have missed it!
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Quick poll:
My Dark Elves are/will be royal purple with off-white as a secondary color.
I'm torn between giving them normal elf/fair skin(which will require a lot of layers over black primer) or giving them pallid skin with a light grey base(quick and easy)? What I'm referring to is this technique: http://fromthewarp.blogspot.com/2009/12/painting-raven-guard-muted-pale-skin.html
What do you guys think?
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I'm not a fan of the slightly greeny looking skin. But that's just a personal preference I guess. Makes them seem a bit undead...
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I say go with the pallid rotten look.
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Well after a couple of years you might learn to master them. You just have to make sure you dont advance them with the rear facong the enemy.
Well, this is where I've been going wrong.
Any idea if Morathi's packing a ward save? I don't really want to fight a Psuedo Balthazar Gelt with Dark Magic. Then again, that Enchanted cloak item along with a magic resistance item would suffice on a regular Peggy-mounted Level 4. She could happily park herself behind enemy lines and let loose with some of the auras.
Or will they be more likely to be on the front lines? It seems like a very battle-line based lore somehow, what with Power of Darkness's buff and so on...
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Quick poll:
My Dark Elves are/will be royal purple with off-white as a secondary color.
I'm torn between giving them normal elf/fair skin(which will require a lot of layers over black primer) or giving them pallid skin with a light grey base(quick and easy)? What I'm referring to is this technique: http://fromthewarp.blogspot.com/2009/12/painting-raven-guard-muted-pale-skin.html
What do you guys think?
You're discarding the "traditional" Drow dark-slate-gray as an option? Because that would look pretty badass.
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I'm not a fan of Drow. The other hiccup is that the bases are rocky/gray...
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Wouldn't do grey with a purple tint rather than green? Always liked that style myself.
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Quick poll:
My Dark Elves are/will be royal purple with off-white as a secondary color.
I'm torn between giving them normal elf/fair skin(which will require a lot of layers over black primer) or giving them pallid skin with a light grey base(quick and easy)? What I'm referring to is this technique: http://fromthewarp.blogspot.com/2009/12/painting-raven-guard-muted-pale-skin.html
What do you guys think?
If you're going purple & off-white, why are you priming black? It's always easier to go light->dark than dark->light.
Prime white or grey, then go with the elf flesh.
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Mostly because the Dark Elf models I've painted so far(EG, the old spearmen and black guard) were mostly armor.
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I have the book :biggriin:
I've decided that they need to take the teeth off the horses and put them on the hydra. They got it the wrong way round! Hydra still looks really bad. They have one pic with a black green one that looks admitedly better, but not good. I still like the khabdifudhs thing though. Not sure why. Black guard are really really nice. Execs still look bad. They seem to have ears on their skull heads! Disappointed in the staticness of the warriors. Seems like a throwback to monopose.
Rules wise, seems like dark elves are back to only hating high elves so I guess that's something. Warlocks seem amazingly good... 4+ ward and magic on fast cav?! Haven't digested the new characters yet but I can't help but feel they may be fluff choices... The dreadlord seems so versatile and good value... But we'll see!
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For whatever reasons, most of the Special Characters in fantasy seem like fluff choices compared to 40K where they are heavily used.
Are the teeth on the horses really that bad looking? I have only seen the White Dwarf pictures of them so far, where it's kind of blurry. GW painters tend to exaggerate details on the model as well, possibly making them look even worse than it is.
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I don't mind the warriors since they have at least some detail variation and arm poseability to avoid true monopose. I'm only disappointed that the heads are attached so you can't easily do head swaps, like using glade guard heads for a cowled look for example. The big hordes Fantasy has now benefit a bit from the rows of straight backed troops creating a cohesive look in the more disciplined armies. I try to make all my skeletons hold their spears straight, and it looks really good, much better than a ragged group with weapons pointing everywhere.
That said it wouldn't be so good with beast men, skaven or orcs.
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Sorry Dosiere, I didn't mean the special characters, I meant the corsair lord and the beastmaster. Haven't really read the special ones yet.
Not 100% sure how bad the teeth situation is yet having only looked at pics too but I am sure if it is as bad as it looks it will be an easy fix.
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Does the hydra have chopped off heads?
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In what sense?
I'm gonna write up a couple of typicalish Dark Elf lists using the old book and see how much the closest I can get to it in the new book costs, just to see how things have changed...
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Do tell me please that the to wound re rolls even with the cauldron of blood is close combat only.
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I see the Kharibdyss/Hydra is listed as both special and rare. Could you conceivably field 3 Kharibdyss and 2 Hydras in a 2400-2500 point game? Is there any reason not to do this, other than being spoiled for choices in Special?
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Hydra is Elite and Kharybdys is rare ...I think ...and you wouldnīt do that because there are other choices that are even better.
You could make a
Rare
Lord on Dragon
Heroes
Beastmasters on Manticors
Core
Dark Riders
Elite
Hydras
Rare
Kharybdys
Beast themed list....its the monster mash.
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Hmm this isn't exactly a typical list for me but I did use it and it's to hand... so under old costs it was 2400. I'm gonna recreate it new now...
550 Dreadlord on Dragon: Pendant of Khaleath, Ogre Blade 557, subbed pendant for amulet
174 Master on Pegasus: Armour of Darkness, Opal Amulet 153, subbed lots of armour for darkness!
225 Death Hag BSB with Cauldron of Blood 300
192 Death Sorceress L2 on Dark Steed: Talisman of Preservation (Soulblight, Purple Sun) 170
340 30 Corsairs inc command: Banner of Swiftness 375
117 5 Dark Riders: xbows 105
92 5 Dark Riders 90
72 11 Spearmen inc standard bearer 109
55 5 Harpies 75
100 Cold One Chariot 115
100 Cold One Chariot 115
207 6 Cold One Knights inc command: Ironcurse Icon 215
175 Hydra 180
So it comes out to 2559 without needing too much rejigging (the black amulet is obviously a few more points than the pendant so it's maybe more like 2530. I've got to say, when you throw in all the new rules, that's not a huge increase. Dark Riders and the Pegasus are noticeably cheaper. The jump in cost of spearmen compared to the lack in jump of say, corsairs, makes me wonder whether spears won't be seen as much...
Do tell me please that the to wound re rolls even with the cauldron of blood is close combat only.
Fandir, good news! The rerolls are combat only. The cauldron just bumps them to rerolling all misses rather than just 1s...
And yes, the hydra is special now whilst the k-thing is rare...
EDIT----
Also I noticed yesterday that hatred has gone back to just being against High Elves. Possibly a moot point with ASF but I thought it was interesting non the less and I will have to try and remember it!
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Also I noticed yesterday that hatred has gone back to just being against High Elves. Possibly a moot point with ASF but I thought it was interesting non the less and I will have to try and remember it!
"right, so ASF gives them rerolls vs everyone apart from HE, and now they can reroll 1s to wound.... I still feel like they aren't rerolly enough"
"why not hatred vs HE?"
"BRILLIANT"
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Yes they now re roll every turn and not only the first....also the great weapon guys now strike at I...which makes the Executioners substantially better.
If you donīt like the look of the new ones maybe the old ones might have a comback.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TTJv8mNw0xE/T6MFtb4UZGI/AAAAAAAABsg/8IJuEbHGY0c/s1600/darkelfexecutioners.jpg)
Or just use High Elves...the Island of Blood Sword masters are still seldon used with White Lions being so great
(http://i.imgur.com/MSoCp.jpg)
And yes against High Elves Executioners re roll to hits and to wound rolls of 1.....at S 6....oh gee jolly good lord.
Well we could also grant them frenzy....easy just put a hag with a 30 point gift in ...obliberate those suckers...finally the conquest of Ulthuan is at hand.
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"right, so ASF gives them rerolls vs everyone apart from HE, and now they can reroll 1s to wound.... I still feel like they aren't rerolly enough"
Aren't they both I5? You get to reroll against same initiative or lower.
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superfluous rerollability!
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"right, so ASF gives them rerolls vs everyone apart from HE, and now they can reroll 1s to wound.... I still feel like they aren't rerolly enough"
Aren't they both I5? You get to reroll against same initiative or lower.
Well that is the reason that they have hatred vs High Elves :happy:
Also we as Empire players shouldnīt complain...it all started with us...HATRED WARRIOR PRIESTS...ASSEMBLE!
Oh what Chaos players would give to have some funky re rolls
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Did a test of the old swordmaster thing myself as it happens... execs seem worth taking enough now that I feel I should go ahead and paint the other 9! And maybe grab 10 more off ebay for a full 30!
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/ExecutionerAlternative.jpg)
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weapon change makes all the difference.
the Old ones look nice, but I remember them not being nice at all.
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Finlay did you ever get those Swordmasters I handed to Rufus?
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yes, they are in a box next to me!
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Well give em some love.......dark love.
Execs are one of the best choices of the new DE list......you could also use the bretonnian Pegasus?
:biggriin:
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not sure if I will collect them, and not sure they work as Execs without the blade swap.
I like the new warriors, but no head swap and one piece bodies puts me off.
Isn't dwarves the next book?
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Yes...and then rumour mill says Wood Elves.
Those certainly will get ASF too.
:engel:
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If they ever do redo wood elves... they are going to be amazing!
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Do tell me please that the to wound re rolls even with the cauldron of blood is close combat only.
Fandir, good news! The rerolls are combat only. The cauldron just bumps them to rerolling all misses rather than just 1s...
Sorry, guys, but this is true only if you play RAI.
The sad truth is that RAW, the COB let reroll all wounds, not only in melee but also made by spells or shooting. The only condition is to have DE racial trait (which bolt throwers have).
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We do not even know whether "only CC" is RAI.
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If they ever do redo wood elves... they are going to be amazing!
nono, crudface will do wood elves, leacing the DE to revel in their Matt Wardian victory!
callison, what's the wording?
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.... :mellow:
if it is re roll to wounds with crossbows and repeater bolt throwers.
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That must get faqed.
It mentions that models with the reroll rule get the rerolls on anything. As you say, I guess if you ignore the sense, as written it could be any roll, but as it refers to a rule that only lets you use it in combat, it totally means it is on combat, even if it was too silly to say it.,.
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As I only play Empire, I cannot be accused of having a special interest. As written, it IS any roll to wound. There is no "could be" about it.
"Friendly models with the Murderous Prowess special rule in units within 6'' of the Cauldron of Blood reroll all failed to wound rolls."
That would include Crossbows, but not RBT.
Is that what was intended? We simply do not know. It certainly says what it says. It may have been a mistake, but until there is an Erratum or FAQ, there is no point in arguing.
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Oh boy...well at least it is models and not units..so it is only the guys within six inches...does this make corsairs with a cauldron an interesting choice? You could give them super frenzy for three attacks asf at i 5 re rolls to wound 4+ armour save. Is there a rule preventing this?
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Note that it is not the models with MP within 6" - it is the models with MP in units within 6".
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Yes so a horde of whatever with a cauldton sitting in the midst would profit from it. Oh the corsairs also would get a 6++ ward on top of their save with additional hand weapon frenzy and super frenzy four attacks re roll to wound and hit against most units and even many heroes. Horde vs horde 70 attacks with re rolls to everything...and good chaos warrior saves with power of darkness at s 4 .....ouch...i would go for hand crossbows though 10 less attacks but 30 shots with re rolls to wound.
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Is MP only in cc?
If so, that will get erratad/faqd
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Yeh it is. That's why I said I am sure it will get faqed. There is the outside chance GW will do one of their mad moments, but I highly doubt it. Just hope they don't take too long...
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So, does the cauldron have similar rules to the Skaven screaming bell, with "pushed into battle" and stuff? And how tough is it, and how does targetting it work?
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Joining a unit is an option. It can march either way. It has 6+4+ saves, t6 5 wounds. All in all, easier to kill than the last one!(i think)
Interestingly can join units other than witch elves and gives them 6+ ward, but if in witch elves, they get 5+ which is quite nice!
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Just read through sisters of slaughter. I expected them to be a bit weird but they seem to be the dark elf wardancers. I'd like to try them and probably will use some witch elves to proxy and see how they do.
Also witch elves have a fun rule now. You can stick characters with them but there is a 50% chance they lose contr and attacl the character. Much more fun than just banning them!
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This pic is amazing
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9bfgRkuKIV0/UlIGXTKuYHI/AAAAAAAACZ0/q99y6Gz1bZM/s320/IMAG2313_1.jpg)
http://lkhero.blogspot.de/2013/10/dark-elves-unit-review.html (http://lkhero.blogspot.de/2013/10/dark-elves-unit-review.html)
Pretty good analysis and even though I sort of like ASF on Elves (I think Wood Elves should and will get it too) as finally they hit like a ton of bricks fitting to a dying super ultra elite warrior race they forgot to increase the points of units it seems.
If you compare Execs/White Lions with Greatswords or even Chaos warriors it is clear that High Elves/Dark Elves are immensly underpriced they should come at 15 or even 16 points a pop.
Dark Elves are so immensly over the top it is not even funny.
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"Friendly models with the Murderous Prowess special rule in units within 6'' of the Cauldron of Blood reroll all failed to wound rolls."
That would include Crossbows, but not RBT.
Actually, RBT do have Murderous Prowess rule. There is no distinction between the balista and the crew. What is limited to the RBT crew is hatred.
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No. The crew has the MP rule, not the RBT. And the crew are distinct from the RBT.
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This pic is amazing
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9bfgRkuKIV0/UlIGXTKuYHI/AAAAAAAACZ0/q99y6Gz1bZM/s320/IMAG2313_1.jpg)
http://lkhero.blogspot.de/2013/10/dark-elves-unit-review.html (http://lkhero.blogspot.de/2013/10/dark-elves-unit-review.html)
Pretty good analysis and even though I sort of like ASF on Elves (I think Wood Elves should and will get it too) as finally they hit like a ton of bricks fitting to a dying super ultra elite warrior race they forgot to increase the points of units it seems.
If you compare Execs/White Lions with Greatswords or even Chaos warriors it is clear that High Elves/Dark Elves are immensly underpriced they should come at 15 or even 16 points a pop.
Dark Elves are so immensly over the top it is not even funny.
It seems the internal balance is a bit off. Execs are clearly the best elite infantry. Corsairs are clearly better than warriors, dark riders are clearly better chaff than harpies, kharybdis is clearly better than hydra, dreadlord is clearly better than the other non magic lords.
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It seems external balance is even worse off..from Lord choices to rare they have in each section one choice that competes for best between all armies..dread lord peggy heroes dark riders bolt throwers warlocks.
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Reading the rumours even if I see some units are better than others, I think all the units of the book can be use without feeling like you cripple yourself which is good (except may be for the fleet master). I wish we could say the same with all the empire unit (yes I look at you handgunners, militia, mortar, rocket...).
Do the dark elves look strong, yes especially with very OP build (monster mash mix with peggies characters, fast cav) but to be honest our built with max stank, demys, captasus and knight chaff is pure filth also...
I think the book is a good one and we need to wait a bit more and play it a bit more to see how it turns out.
For reference I play DE as well and I didn't play them in 8th since I didn't feel any competition with them, you could squeeze everything you wanted in a list without any struggle for points, the spearmen were so cheap, the hydra so effective, the magic items so powerful and the cauldron so strong, it was really easy to dominate the battle.
Porkix
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I might buy more wood elf light cavalry before they re-cut the sprues to make them worse value. The horses are so much better than the new delf ones.
Just so I can take a Delf army to the next eurobash and upset Fandir with it. :icon_razz:
It's daft that the cauldron can march. Can the skaven wagony things do that?
What's the base size on the cauldron now? Chariot base?
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It's daft that the cauldron can march. Can the skaven wagony things do that?
Not on their own, no. They need to join a unit at deployment and stay in that unit, and move with it (but are dragged along when the unit marches). When the units model count falls below 10 movement is reduced by 1" per model below 10. So, fewer than 5 and the Skaven wagons become immobile.
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Oh, I see. That's a bit more limiting then.
The cauldron just magics around at full speed all the time!
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But it's women driving it, so if you want to stop within 2" of a friendly unit, you have to make a Parking Check (LD check on 3 dice, discard lowest) and if you fail you execute a charge.
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In addition (if I am not mistaken), the Cauldron in a unit cannot be specifically targeted by ranged attacks - unlike the skaven wagony things.
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Had a quick read and all I could find was that it is treated like a character. It is a charior though ao I would assume it's targetable due to diff unit type.
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Only if you get enough hits:
BRB p. 99:
If there are fewer than five rank-and-file models left in the unit (or the character is of a different troop type) there is a chance that any characters in the unit could be hit the controlling player decides who is hit, but must allocate one hit on each model before he can add a second hit on a model; he must allocate two hits on each model before he can allocate a third, and so on.
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Warmachines can single it out....is it a large target?
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I think, like all armies, the Dark Elves will be fine in the hands of gamers and OP in the hands of people who want that. Some armies mabe this easier than others but they are all like that.
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No. The crew has the MP rule, not the RBT. And the crew are distinct from the RBT.
:icon_redface: My mistake, did not check enough. Thanks.
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Warmachines can single it out....is it a large target?
It is a large target. 4+ ward though, so not easy to cannon.
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The skaven stuff has a 4+ ward as well doesn't it? The bell does for sure.
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Does being large target help? I just looked up largr target and the only targetting rule it has was that it can't hide behind obstacles.
If what fidelis said about singling out larger base sizes is true why does everyone get worried about running cav in infantry or WP with demis? Sounds very unlikely it would be an issue. No one here ever really does it so I had always assumed for some reason that wrong base size meant no protection.
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The rule quoted is about normal shooting. Template weapons are a different matter.
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Ah so cannoning it out may be quite a viable option. With as few wounds as it has you wouldn't have to be that lucky to take it down with 2 cannon shots.
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You can't cannon everything!
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You obviously don't use enough cannons. :-P
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Also 5 wounds with 4+ ward isnt really few wounds statistically you look at 10 wounds.
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Ok you guys win, it's invincible like everything in the new book!
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COB Strength of Khaine rule says that "friendly models with Murderous Prowess special rule and situated in units within 6" of COB reroll missed to wound rerolls."
The crew has the MP rule, not the RBT. And the crew are distinct from the RBT.
Actually, debatable.
RBT is a single model with split profile.
The model has MP.
Therefore, there seems to be a loophole allowing RBTs to reroll wounds.
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Not really. It concerns "friendly models with Murderous Prowess special rule and situated in units within 6 "of the COB." The RBT is not a single model, but a single unit consisting of several models - 1 war machine and 2 crew. Only the crew has the MP special rule.
If a single look at the war machine would not be enough to convince you that the unit consists of several models, it is spelled out in BRB p. 108:
"A war machine unit comprises the machine itself, plus its crew. As the crew aren't really a combat unit, per se, we ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the war machine itself as the extent of the unit. When the war machine suffers a wound, remove a crew model."
The fact that you can ignore the crew for most gaming purposes does not mean you can ignore them for all gaming purposes - like SoK. Nor that they would not be models - as proven by the second sentence. Note that War Machines are never said to be or to count as single models.
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The rule quoted is about normal shooting. Template weapons are a different matter.
Yes, and if it's treated like a character it will get a LO,S roll, depending on its unit type. What is its unit type?
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Chariot.
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@ Fidelis von Sigmaringen
Thanks, trusty rule specialist!
Quoted at druchii.net.
@ Aldaris
COB and shrines are chariot type. Therefore, no Look Out, Sir! can be considered.
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OK, so templating it works.
:-D
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COB T6 W5 6+/4++.
Shrine T6 W5 6+.
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Does the 4++ extend to the crew?
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using the war altar example I'd say no.
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I don't think so either, but I don't have the book.
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The crew and any unit it joins are at 5+ ward.
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The crew don't exist anyway, like chariot crew. I guess you mean the character riding it.
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Dark Elves are one of the two armies I never bother playing against, in the past it was because of the point imbalance but now after reading this book with their 17 point core fast cav that can beat the shit out of anything in our army at ease, 11 Point amazing witch elves and these ward saving monsters.....
yeah sorry bud I won't ever play against your dark pansies, you should have matt ward come over and fix what Crudface fucked up.
-Grutch
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I guess, DE got a Ward save. :engel:
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We could change it to Matt save.
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I'm ready for all the rage to blow over now. As primarily a dark elf player it is hard to get excited while everyone is ranting about them so hard. And none of you have even played them yet!
Anyways, at some point I would like to talk sensibly about them without being bombarded with how they have broken the game. They don't seem that much more outrageous than high elves anyway. A lot of the rules are very similar. I think people need to calm down, play a few games against them. Then if/when they wipe the floor with you, come back and rage.
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No rage from me, although I think they're a lot better than HE now really, frost pheonix and that dodgy banner aside.
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Now you know what Skaven player feel like siby constant moaning when you place your units.
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Except Skaven have been around a few years so people have a pretty informed opinion of them whereas most people on yhis site have not even played dark elves yet, or even seen the book...
I'm not sure they are that much better than high elves too... A lot of it is very comparible... But time will tell better than trying to work things out based on stats alone...
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Stop being so sensible siby, it is quite boring ;)
I really dont see them as comparable to HE. Cheap dark riders, awesome execs and warlocks, and murderous prowess over ride them .
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I need to make a little wheely cart to put my cauldron on.
Is it on a chariot base? If so that rather sucks for joining units. Awkward size!
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Cauldron is on 60x100 base, i.e. 3x5 infantry models.
The strength of the new DE army book needs to be evaluated on the field, not on the basis of a couple of stats in a few units.
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Which is a weak excuse in a point based gaming system where percentiles pretty much determine what are good stats...what are average and what are bad.
Having units with the same base costs with more special rules and better stats pretty much mean....they are the better choice as they have better chances to perform as you wish.....having the chance of re rolling on top of that makes it even worse.
My bet...the whining will just get louder after the first couple of tournaments.
Regarding the High Elves....they do everything the High Elves do but just better.
white lion cloak vs sea dragon cloak obvious DE winner
asf + extra rank + panic re roll vs asf + murderous prowess + hatred vs HE extra rank means you need bigger units to profit from the rule so I would say again the clear winner DE especially as characters get the boost extra rank fighting for a lord choice...awww...geeee well.
reavers vs dark riders ...well 4+ save twice the numbers of shots
magic items ....well besides the world dragon banner the DE have the better choice items in my opinion also they get gifts and poison so they also got more.
chariot mounted bolt throwers.....S5 vs S7
White magic vs Dark magic....well the lore attribute is for both rather weak...the signature spells of the DE are better though the rest of the lore is ...mediocre for both too much of a mixed bag but as both have access to brb lores I would call it a draw.
only units really outstanding in the comparison are white lions and the frosty everything else.....DE win hands down ...if you start to compare to other armies it gets really ugly...sadly they donīt have a S10 cannon mounted on a hydra besides that they are great in movement, shooting, close combat, magic.
So the cauldron besides granting re rolls to wound and a 5+ ward to wytches saves you on 15 models you need for a horde.....nice.....but yes it is way too expensive.
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Boosted ward save for every succesful spell rather weak?
I think I see the problem now. Dark Elves are the new shiny and if you pick and choose what you compare, of course you can make them seem more powerful...
People are seeing all the new rules all diving off the deep end. There are so many more factors to take into account and gaming time will be what really shows how they are. When the Empire came out this forum was rife with calls of how they had been ruined because everything was more expensive and nerfed. As time has gone on, I think most people have realised that Empire, whilst not top of the pile, are actually not bad off at all.
So stats can tell you a certain amount. But games will give the real picture as to how it all works together.
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you have to put the mage in the cc unit to make it work.....it isnt good. only viable in a phenix guard deathstar.
I said from day one that >Empire is still rather good especially the steam tank, demis and the hellblaster...by looking at their stats point costs and mechanics.
Bite in the sour apple dark elves will be top runners that means you will have to make sure you dont get sloppy with using them.
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=41510.500 (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=41510.500)
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I can admit that DE book is slightly more powerful then HE. But that was even before their new ABs.
They are still not so powerful that Empire would need to field Mortars again. And Empire shouldn't really whine with Steam Tank and Demigryphs. In the end this new DE will not win you because of their "omg" army book, generalship will still prevail, not the army.
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two generals with equal skill...the guy with the loaded dice wins. If people want to show their generalsmanship go play beastmen, woodelves or if allowed dogs of war.
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Since Dark Elves are the slave owning evil Americans of Warhammer of course they had to be made exceptional. Point for point they're shy cheaper than High Elves yet come out on top with their rerolls to miss, indestructible ward Saving Cauldron, murderous assasins, best fast cavalry in the game (and it's core too)!
Compare anything in the book to our travesty that Crudface wrote (Frick Cruddace, Frick), 11 point core witches vs our flagellents or greatswords, cheaper and far better dark riders vs pistoliers, cheap bolt throwers vs our nerfed and more expensive S2 mortar. That Hydra is 160 points? It can easily lay waste to a 250 point unit of Demigriffons.
The lizardmen release was toned down, well balanced, arguably a little soft, but Matt Ward comes along and Power Creeps the fuck out of the game, yeah I'm not liking this development at all. Fuck these designers for their lack of consistency and balance. Are they sucking someone off at Druchii?
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That's exactly the kind of ranting I was referring to from before, thanks for the reminder. A lot of those things you mention aren't actually the case Grutch, though some of it is accurate.
Fandir, I wasn't really referencing you, just the general feelings at the time. Though I'm not sure whether you are linking it to show that you were right then, so you must be right now or what.
Either way, I'll let you guys do your thing at this point...
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It is the same thing Skaven have to suffer through...ask Aldaris about his Eurobash experience whenever he placed his well painted Skaven on the table....and besides pointing out that they are a strong army...and stopping Dark Elf Generals claiming you need superior generalsmanship with the new book I donīt have anything to say on the issue.
I for my part like it ...I like Empire being the underdog so every other army book being better makes it harder for me to win...when I do come out on the top then....it feels much better.
What I have to disagree though is pretending that DE are not strong...they are.
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I can admit that DE book is slightly more powerful then HE. But that was even before their new ABs.
They are still not so powerful that Empire would need to field Mortars again. And Empire shouldn't really whine with Steam Tank and Demigryphs. In the end this new DE will not win you because of their "omg" army book, generalship will still prevail, not the army.
Great, so empire have 2 unit choices which can stand up to the better book? What if you don't want demigryphs OR a steam tank. I don't want demi's, and don't own a stank.
RBTs will absolutely kane ST as well, incidentally.
Boosted ward save for every succesful spell rather weak?
I think I see the problem now. Dark Elves are the new shiny and if you pick and choose what you compare, of course you can make them seem more powerful...
People are seeing all the new rules all diving off the deep end. There are so many more factors to take into account and gaming time will be what really shows how they are. When the Empire came out this forum was rife with calls of how they had been ruined because everything was more expensive and nerfed. As time has gone on, I think most people have realised that Empire, whilst not top of the pile, are actually not bad off at all.
So stats can tell you a certain amount. But games will give the real picture as to how it all works together.
Most Empire stuff WAS ruined because everything is more expensive and nerfed. There not many usable units left in the book- my biggest complaint with it.
As well as comparing Dark Elves best choices vs others = DE are better, you get the same comparing DE worse choices to other books worse choices.
Execs are clearly insane. But BG are still > flaggies and greatswords.
I also said in the other thread, the worst thing about the DE book is how clearly better the choices are across the board.
characters: dreadlords and sorceress. core: Dark Riders (and NOT warriors) special: Execs and RBT rare: Warlocks.
I'm not whining, I hate the Empire book and subsequently will not use it, but that's neither here nor there and I've long since accepted it. I might well finish my dark elf army. I'd probably want to add a unit of corsairs, a unit of execs, more rbts and some warlocks (although I really don't like the models, so unless it was due to the paintjob, I'd have to think on alternates.)
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Executioners are seriously overpowered.
They're 12 points.
They're everything our greatswords want to be. Sure, their AS is lower (minimally), but for just a point more they get shitload of special rules, and strike at I6 instead of ASL and get all kinds of re-rolls.
I still think that 10 points would the ideal price for our greatswords.
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With the other choices around 9 would make them look attractive then the other infantry sucks even more though.
Thing is...best Empire can do against the new dark elves...sadly is loading up on knights and blasting the execs with ranged weapons.
Infantry no matter which unit...wonīt stand a snowballs chance in hell through all those S3 re rollingness.
Stank can weather quite a lot of hits even from repeater bolt throwers..if you hide it behind knights even more so he will get -2 to hit...large target only removes penalties from obstacles....which is rather super silly but there you go. Steam tanks behind knights...demis and others will do rather well against some DE builds......but will have to be careful....problem is my Empire army I paint up will have two units of Greatswords (because they have lovely models) and a halberdier horde...(because I got lovely Pro Gloria models) would a second stank immensly help my list? Hell yeah...but as stated in Germany people think double stank is too op ...no matter what the rest of the army looks like.
Do I mind....nahhhh!
If I win...I will gloat immensly.
:mrgreen:
execs are i 5
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Most Empire stuff WAS ruined because everything is more expensive and nerfed. There not many usable units left in the book- my biggest complaint with it.
This is really what I'm ranting about. The DE book is awesome in so many ways. Nearly every unit in the book is a viable choice, and I'd say the same for the Lizardmen, and mostly the High Elf Release with exception to their useless spearmen.
The Empire book has some good things going on, but the choices are narrowed down to a handful of things that work. Tell me when you see a mortar, swordsmen, or flagellents on the table? Short of light council, who takes a war altar? Why bother with an Empire General? Why are our clearly underperforming crossbowmen and handgunners expensive? What justifies 6 points a model for free company?
Best thing to happen to GW would be Cruddace leaving the joint, somebody give him a better job offer please!
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Best thing to happen to GW would be Cruddace leaving the joint, somebody give him a better job offer please!
How about you? :engel:
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Most Empire stuff WAS ruined because everything is more expensive and nerfed. There not many usable units left in the book- my biggest complaint with it.
This is really what I'm ranting about. The DE book is awesome in so many ways. Nearly every unit in the book is a viable choice, and I'd say the same for the Lizardmen, and mostly the High Elf Release with exception to their useless spearmen.
The Empire book has some good things going on, but the choices are narrowed down to a handful of things that work. Tell me when you see a mortar, swordsmen, or flagellents on the table? Short of light council, who takes a war altar? Why bother with an Empire General? Why are our clearly underperforming crossbowmen and handgunners expensive? What justifies 6 points a model for free company?
Best thing to happen to GW would be Cruddace leaving the joint, somebody give him a better job offer please!
We got hit by the "infantry tax"- to compensate for stepping up and steadfast. as did OnG.
it seems to have slipped by the wayside somewhat...
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This is supposedly how 9th edition is supposed to look like. I'm not sure what they're getting at with that statement.
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according to who?
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Thing is...best Empire can do against the new dark elves...sadly is loading up on knights and blasting the execs with ranged weapons.
This seems oddly "realistic" . . . elite hyper-fast inhuman fighters? Oppose them with elite warriors in the best armor, or shoot the buggers from far away.
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I need to finally buy the warmachine octopus thing, and use it as a charibdis.
(http://privateerpress.com/files/imagecache/product_image/products/75039_SwampHorror_WEB.jpg)
Hmmm, you don't seem to need crew for these or for hydras.
Also, nothing is ever going to use that 'sea creature' rule from the rulebook.
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is it big enough?
looks awesome!
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It says the base is 50mm, so I think it should be big enough!
Probably bigger than my ancient hydra anyway!
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-I really like Murderous Prowess. It makes big infantry units more dangerous without resorting to the nuclear option of giving them S4. I'd like to see Wood Elf shooting get a similar rule, so they can have good ranged power without adding warmachines to the army.
-I like the changes to the hydra - it will put some serious hurt on an enemy unit, but due to the delayed regeneration it shouldn't be attacking without support.
-What were they thinking with the Lord level characters? SCs with no ward save. Grossly expensive High Beastlords(why not make 'em into dirt cheap characters who let you get a black dragon onto the table without the need for an expensive dreadlord?). Useless Fleetmasters.
In any case, it's time to paint up the 30 corsairs I've had in black primer since the last book came out 4 years ago.
One thing I've been waffling on is whether to keep painting my Dark Elves royal purple with off-white under-robes/trim/sigils or switch over to crimson(with extra gold ornamentation and pale blonde hair).
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I'm going to avoid the power talk, but Oak, I think the beastlord is ok, the fleetmaster is the worst character option I have ever seen.
I just came in though to say that I played my first game with the new book today. 2000pts vs lizards.
I tried out the scary idea of MSU.
Sorceress L4 Dark on Pegasus, dispel & twilight cloak
Master on steed 1+ save with dawnstone and great weapon
Sorceress L2 Shadow w/channel staff
14 Xbows
2 units of 5 Darkriders
12 Witch Elves
12 Executioners
6 Shades
6 Cold Ones
Hydra
2 Reapers
It's vastly different to anything I have used before but it just kinda happened.
I faced:
Slann sig spells, reroll dispels, hold over dice, book of ashur
Scar Vet with steg helm
20 Temple Guard
20 Saurus
20 Saurus
Bastilidon
2 units of 5 Chameleons
Engine of
Oh and we played scenario 5, meeting engagement? I had to set up first, had my hydra, witch elves, L4, shades and a reaper start in reserve and then lost the roll for 1st turn...!
How'd it go? More tomorrow!
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Alright, well I was off to a dodgy start. Thankfully there was a river on one corner of the board. As I was choosing sides I went with the river side and deployed much of my stuff behind it, including my Xbows in a house. I did leave my cold ones outside the river in an attempt to make them adaptable. But obviously a large part of my army was not on the board yet, which turned out to be a blessing in disguise. My opponent set up as close to the line as he could roughly in the middle of the board.
He rolled the 6 needed for turn 1 and advanced on me. The good news was that because of the diagonal deployment and his need to engage what was already there, he left the flank of a saurus block exposed. In my turn I brought on my hydra, witches and, well everything except the reaper right there in that corner. My hydra moved up and forced him to charge it.
He did this and miasmaed my WS and I down to 1. Not good but somehow I did more wounds and he failed his break test. The hydra, though down to 1 wound ran down the saurus and then grew back 2 heads into the bargain.
To keep things relatively brief, the river side of the board saw me keeping out of charge range of the saurus over there and shooting him relentlessly through the game. In the last turn my Xbows had an especially good round and took down the last 5 saurus. The Scar Vet had charged out at my executioners and after cutting half of them down the first round, was killing blowed.
On the right, it was a case of me trying to keep his temple guard out of combat, which somehow I did, and trying to grapple with the stegadon. That thing is a beast for what I had. In a desperate attempt I threw the hydra and master into it but it chased off the hero and killed the hydra. Then even more desperate I threw in the witch elves and shades. Non of them were able to take it down and it chased off thew witches who were then magiced off, whilst eating the shades.
In the middle, my cold ones got stuck with no where to run and charged by the bastilidon. They spent the majority of the battle this way until eventually he was able to whittle them down dead. Thankfully my reapers finished the job in the last turn and took him down.
When we tallied up points, I was 183 ahead, so barely a win. And when I think back on a lot of things, I feel like I really shoulnd't have won this game. The MSU thing was cool and all but in this scenario had no room to maneuvre and was lucky to scrape a victory. Had he realised how decent the executioners were I doubt he would have charged his scar vet in, putting us back to draw territory. And probably he should have loaded the river flank, gone over it and taken the certain points of my Xbows and reapers rather than chasing my fast units.
As the how the elves performed. Well, their shooting still rocks! I really missed my rerolls on the master and executioners though. If you have a bad round with those execs, they will go down to hordey S4 units. I would be happier charging them into knights than I would halberdiers... The witch elves are super fragile, but didn't have a great match up in this game.
Dark Magic was nice. Did I feel it did me any better than taking something else? Honestly, probably not! Death magic would have got me access to stuff I could have attacked the Slaan with and a better template spell to deal with the saurus. Strength tests don't really cut it on them. And I failed to 6 dice the boosted doombolt 3 times in a row which makes me think I might only risk that if I can use the sac dagger in future.
The new hydra is appropriately a bit more vulnerable. The head growing back thing is a nice mechanic, but he is not the beast he once was where you could rely on him to chew up units by himself. I'd say he is fairly costed now. Will I take him every game, probably not.
All in all, the new dark elves seemed a bit better at dealing damage, but just as likely to die to a stiff breeze, characters aside (who are probably a bit better off, loss of pendant aside). I look forward to trying out the other units and different styles. The MSU is a risky game because you rely on a lot of little hammers rather than a couple of big ones and when you have stuff like burning alignment going off and hitting everything in a wide arc, that can be a horrible dent in your army...
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I have been thinking of a DE force. I want something fluffy but competitive ish. I am also a little limited to the models i like the look of. I fancy a force of corsair pirates hired by the beastmasters of clar karond to hunt kharibdyss and other things.
Architect of the expedition, high beastlord black amulet dragon helm - need a weapon
Manticore with iron hard skin and blind rage
Navigator and caller from the deep, supreme sorcerer 4+ward sac dagger
Captain of the ark, master (as the fleet master is rubbish) on pegasus with bsb, ha, cloak, handbow - needs a weapon
Assassin xhw - needs something else
30 corsairs with xhw and fc
10 corsairs with rhb
5 dark riders with shields and rxb
5 dark riders with shields and rxb
10 darkshards - for the sorcerer
10 cold one knights with fc
2 RBT
9 harpies
Scourge runner chariot
9 shades with ehw
2 kharibydss
I am about 100 pts short of 3000pts with that army.
I was thinking of getting some darkshards rxb arms from ebay and combining them with corsair models, same with the dark riders and RBT crew.
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Great weapons on the shades!
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Good report, Siby! That seems like a small army for 2000 points though.
FR1DAY: you've stolen my list!
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Great minds rufus.
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Good report, Siby! That seems like a small army for 2000 points though.
It is small isn't it! I was petrified when I rolled up to face 60 saurus and a slaan with that... I think it was just having a bunch of 200ish point units. After the fact now, the game was so close I kinda wish I had done a whole bat rep. Ah well. Those are a lot of work so maybe for the best this time.
Things I am still eager to try out:
Beastlord on Manticore - 4+ save on the manti and d3 extra atks sounds fun...
Sisters of Slaughter - bit of a novelty but they sound interesting
Black Guard - Executioners were nice, but I missed the rerolls from asf
Course I wanna try some more of the new stuff too but that would mean buying it...
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The manticore woth a beathlord and blind fury could get 11 attacks (4 base + d3 + d3 + 1) all kb ouch!
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Yeh, if nothing else, it could be a fun choice... just run it into knight units or something, give the lord high strength attacks in case the manticore fluffs his and I can see him being quite handy...
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Do execs not get rerolls to hit, just at initiative not first?
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No rerolls but strike at i5 with s6 congrats to the win sounds like a fun game.
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Yeh, don't get me wrong, the execs are great. Buuutt... I am accustomed to hatred in all my armies so rerolling to hit is what I do. In a small unit like that, a bad round of rolling and suddenly that s6 with reroll1 means nothing.
I want to try black guard too, just to see. Lower str and more expensive yes, but more atks and more reliable. Hopefully I can swap between them now and enjoy the best of both worlds. The reroll 1s thing helped a couple of times and it was a nice counter to the lizards getting their extra atks.
Thanks fandir, though I never should have won that game, not because of the army, but because of how things could have panned out.
Really tempted to try shadow l4 soon and see just how nasty mindrazored witch elves can be... :icon_twisted:
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I think if I buy one box of corsairs and one box of wood elf cavalry, I'll have a full army.
Though I need some ebay plastic swordmasters too really, to join my six metal executioners.
I'm not sure how to mobilise my cauldron of blood. It currently looks like this:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/western%20elves/cauldron_zpsf200e13b.jpg) (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/sparky_sparkfire/media/western%20elves/cauldron_zpsf200e13b.jpg.html)
I was thinking I'd keep the statue and the cauldron part (not the frame) and put them on some sort of wagon?
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Isn't it much harder to kitbash dark Ridder's now, because the new warrior kit have unified bodies and legs?
I THINK I have ten dark Ridder's already though.
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When's second wave?
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If I get one box of wood elf cavalry, I should have 15 dark riders! I definitely want three units. I use the corsair crossbows with them.
November sometime for the remaining units. I quite want a chariot, despite the funny wheel situation.
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I was thinking I'd keep the statue and the cauldron part (not the frame) and put them on some sort of wagon?
Avatar of Khaine pushing a wheelbarrow of blood.
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I reckon a hurrucanum base would be fine if it weren't for all the Empire stuff all over it, and I mean all over it.
I am in a similar situation witph my CoB. It's the one from last book which I quite like, but it needs raising and wheeling and basing I suppose. Saw the new one in a batrep yesterday. It is outrageously huge!
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Maybe it doesn't need wheels - it moves by magic anyway!
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Is that a Heroquest gargoyle you're using as the statue?
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Yes, it is!
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And a Wood Elf Wardancer Champion as "Chief Priestess" you sure do know you donīt want to fall into their hands.
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I have not found any rule that allows the Dark riders to keep their light cavalry rules while using a shield 4+ armour save? Am I missing something?
Making a fear and Terror based army also is a viable tactic the Hag can have a skill that grants her fear that is tested with -3 to rolls, there is a spell which reduces the leadership of all enemies in a certain radius by a further -1 and forbids using general or bsb rules add in two kharybis who force re rolls to all successful leadership and a double charge of the unit with the hag and the kharybdis should make sure everything is down to ws 1.
ha ha!
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I have not found any rule that allows the Dark riders to keep their light cavalry rules while using a shield 4+ armour save? Am I missing something?
Fast cavalry don't have a save restriction in this edition, I think.
Goblin wolf riders are 4+ save fast cavalry too.
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No such restrictions. However, if a FC unit uses an option to take barding, they will lose the FC special rule (like our Outriders).
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I was wondering about trying the fear army when I saw all those ld killers. Might be fun for a game or two but I wouldn't want to rely on it all the time. Think the Vamps can do similar and I don't hear about it being run a whole lot...
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It sounds gimmicky! Dislike.
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You could model the static CoB's on some kind of platform being carried by slaves and / or warriors. Or on the back of beasts of burden, or something. Perhaps a single big monster thing - cheap plastic dragon or some such.
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I was wondering about trying the fear army when I saw all those ld killers. Might be fun for a game or two but I wouldn't want to rely on it all the time. Think the Vamps can do similar and I don't hear about it being run a whole lot...
Rely on 1) rolling the - ld and no general or BSB spell 2) rolling enough power dice to use it 3) actually casting the spell at the right time.
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The ld spell would help but I'm not sure you'd 100% need it.
Plus you don't have to rely on rolling it, you can furion it!
I'll look into it more. It is gimicky... And utterly useless against some armies, but often there are things you never use because they are too situational or whatnot and it might be a fun time to use them...
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No such restrictions. However, if a FC unit uses an option to take barding, they will lose the FC special rule (like our Outriders).
There is no barding.
Lord/hero on dark steed, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield = 1+, still fast cav.
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I did not say there was.
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I did say that there was not.
I did not say you did! ;)
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The ld spell would help but I'm not sure you'd 100% need it.
Plus you don't have to rely on rolling it, you can furion it!
I'll look into it more. It is gimicky... And utterly useless against some armies, but often there are things you never use because they are too situational or whatnot and it might be a fun time to use them...
I thought furion was Riddick.
He doesn't fear anything.
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GW magic item design team need to be slapped in the face.
This isn't magic the gathering! you don't need to make crap rares on purpose!
gem of spite. no. fuck off. don't be a twat.
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GW magic item design team need to be slapped in the face.
This isn't magic the gathering! you don't need to make crap rares on purpose!
gem of spite. no. fuck off. don't be a twat.
(http://persephonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/uexc_attach/men-in-tights-gauntlet-slap.gif)
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There's probably no Fast Cav 4+ save restriction because they're all spindly and weak. Marauder Cav are Manly Men, and thus lose Fast Cav when they wear light armour.
Strange miss that though. Seems like some writers have it still in their heads when others clearly don't...
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why is it a miss?
Goblin wolf riders can have 4+ and still be fast cav
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I love gobbo wolfriders too! That dark riders get 4+ now is still a bit unreal to me... In a good way!
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Second rank of cold one knights:
The tails get in the way.
Horribly in the way.
Tails! :eusa_wall:
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I am about to face this problem too but I did my front rank kinda spreading out from the centre so hopefully I won't have too many issues.
So looking forward to 12 cold ones kicking butt!
I know I could check this but I guess the chariot kit would provide a spare set of whatever you don't use...
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Corsairs hate ranking up too. They just want to stab each other. Annoying!
The chariot looks good when pulled by cold ones. Less so when pulled by ugly rabbit horses.
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How are the horses when you dont over emphasise the teeth though?
Is a unit of 20 black guard pointlessly small? Its still 330 points!
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I am probably gonna run 18 6 wide to start with. Probably don't wanna get in to something with tonnes of attacks, but can certainly hold stuff up for a while... Probably will require magic to make them very killy though...
Corsairs are a nightmare to rank up yes! But they do look kinda cool so I forgive them...
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Probably will require magic to make them very killy though...
Cast cheatrazor on them! Then they practically auto-wound.
Is ten dark riders enough? Maybe I don't need any more.
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2 units of 5- thats what I am thinking. They are one of the most undercosted in the book though (along with Execs) so add more depending how power gamey you feel.
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siby, did you feel like you wanted more than 2 RBTs?
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No corsairs or glade riders in wargames emporium, so I'm giving up the idea of buying more stuff.
I'll just paint what I already have.
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Booooo to painting.....how about placing some corsairs on 40 mm bases....like 2 of them as unit fillers half the numbers of guys to paint..they rank up AND less to paint.
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No corsairs or glade riders in wargames emporium, so I'm giving up the idea of buying more stuff.
I'll just paint what I already have.
is wargames emporium a shop?
waylandgames and gifts for geeks are good online shops.
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I use dark sphere. 25% off. And they are just by waterloo station, thus easy to get to if theirs a problem.
I have been thinking of changing my master to this set up.
Master on dark peg, HA & SDC, shield, lance, cloak of twilight. 188 points
He has T4 and W3, 1+ sv, 3++ against shooting and magic, ASF S6, MP and lastly KB and D3 wounds on first turn of combat.
Id use him to target expensive multi wound models. Like monsters, exposed non ward save characters and wagon types.
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The only worry with that build is S4 from the second round of combat... plus you've lost your ward then too. Those monsters would need to die first round or you're in trouble...
Did I feel like 2 reapers wasn't enough? Not really. 2 was great. Having used 2 at 100pts for so long, having the exact same for 60pts less feels like a bargain. Would I ever use 4 if I had them? Probably! But I'd feel a bit naughty. Plus the shooting from the rest of the army is pretty good too so I didn't feel like I lacked for ranged power. Being able to concentrate 4 reapers per turn though would be brutal!
As to dark riders, 2 units felt enough. If I was running a specialist army of say dark riders, cold ones and monsters then they could totally fill out core, but if I used more on a regular basis I think it would start impeding on my othee choices... I do have another 5 I never got round to repainting and I am sure I will do that soon but I don't see me using them most of thr time.
On Thursday I have a day of gaming at the lgs and am taking my druchii, 1500pts and less. I will probably take a few army variants down and see how things go. I'll post my lists tomorrow when I write them up...
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I wrote a 2500 pt list
dreadlord, chillblade, shield, SDC, Heavy Armour, 207 pts
Sorceress, level 4, dark pegasus, awesome cloak of awesomeness, 320 pts (527)
Master, BSB, shield, sdc, HA 107
12 rxb 144
5 dark riders, spears, shields, rxb. 100
5 dark riders, spears, shields, rxb. 100
30 corsairs, AHW, Full command 360 pts (704)
5 CoK 150
5 CoK 150
3 RBT. 210
6 shades, GW, 118
12 Execs, 144
Hydra, breath, 180 (952)
5 warlocks, 125
Currently at 2415 pts. Not sure of chillblade, vs Ogre blade.
Master needs magic items, and possibly a dark pegasus? I dont really like putting BSB and General into the same unit.
I'd only need o buy the corsairs, the master, 2 RBTs and the warlocks to finish this, so I fell like I probably should!
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I use dark sphere. 25% off. And they are just by waterloo station, thus easy to get to if theirs a problem.
I have been thinking of changing my master to this set up.
Master on dark peg, HA & SDC, shield, lance, cloak of twilight. 188 points
He has T4 and W3, 1+ sv, 3++ against shooting and magic, ASF S6, MP and lastly KB and D3 wounds on first turn of combat.
Id use him to target expensive multi wound models. Like monsters, exposed non ward save characters and wagon types.
If you donīt use it somewhere else you could also add the potion of foolhardiness 5 points +1 attack on the one vital turn...also it makes sure you donīt fail that so very important fear test.
I figured this build for the Lord level character and make a pegasus master with just charmed shield and sword of might carbon copy of my Captasus.....well with better save and re rolls to hit that is.
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Fin, what's interesting to me with the new dark elves, and I see it in your list too, is that they aren't putting many troops down on the board. It feels like you need to be a tad more careful about getting shot/magicked...
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Well regarding your list Finlay...if you donīt want a pegasus lord and bsb you could put both of them on a cold one and make one big stampeding unit.
Just give them Halberds or lances if you want a magical weapon I would go for the ogre blade.
Other than that I think your execs are too small, they are the most amazing unit in the book and I would field them in a horde of 30.
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Fin, what's interesting to me with the new dark elves, and I see it in your list too, is that they aren't putting many troops down on the board. It feels like you need to be a tad more careful about getting shot/magicked...
basically only because you dont have the most undercosted unit in the game to add 30+ cheap bodies! I think it looks about right now. My list in particular though is quite MSUy. That's the worry if BSB and General are in the corsairs, although other stuff can hit harder, that's then the key unit and asking to be shot.
Well regarding your list Finlay...if you donīt want a pegasus lord and bsb you could put both of them on a cold one and make one big stampeding unit.
Just give them Halberds or lances if you want a magical weapon I would go for the ogre blade.
Other than that I think your execs are too small, they are the most amazing unit in the book and I would field them in a horde of 30.
Pegasus lord is tempting. I guess the army is less reliant on general due to LD8/9.
Execs are beardy :P
although it solves the "no general and bsb in same unit dilemma" too.
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If I would play Dark Elves my list would be something like
Master on Pegasus, potion of foolhardiness, lance, 1+ armour save mundane cloak of twilight
Sorceres lvl 4 lore of shadow or death (if death +1 ld banner for the unit for ld 10 soul sucking), in a unit of 20 dark shards
master on pegasus 1+ mundane kit, sword of might
sorceres lvl 2 lore of darkness dispel scroll (+1 strength signature spell is ace)
10 dark shards
10 dark shards
6 dark riders shields repeater crossbows musician
6 dark riders shields repeater crossbows musician
4 repeater bolt throwers
30 executioners standard
6 warlocks
6 warlocks
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Boring list! ::heretic::
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powergamey list!
I was trying to avoid that, although it does balance my army a lot better if I make the execs bigger.
for example
master, shield, sdc, heavy armour, 82
Sorceress, level 4, dark pegasus, awesome cloak of awesomeness, 320 pts (402)
Master, BSB, shield, sdc, HA 107
12 rxb 144
5 dark riders, spears, shields, rxb. 100
5 dark riders, spears, shields, rxb. 100
29 corsairs, AHW, Full command 349 pts (693)
5 CoK 150
5 CoK 150
2 RBT. 140
6 shades, GW, 118
29 full command Execs, 378
Hydra, breath, 180 (1116)
5 warlocks, 125
then 47 pts to equip the masters.
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Ģ4 each for shite resin harpies!
Ģ4 each for shite resin shades!
Go home GW, you're drunk.
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I like the shades! But I have metal ones.
I thought you had some harpies already?
You could get the gameszone delfs. Use them as executioners!
I'm going to have two pegasus riders in my list, I think.
Cauldron of blood: too many points? 300 or so... hmmm. :icon_confused:
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Halberds are two handed weapons too and you could double them as Black Guard should you want to try them. I am sure nobody sensible would mind as long as you tell him pre game what the unit represents.
Boring list! ::heretic::
Its the German efficiency kicking in ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic::
The Cloak is sort of wasted on the sorceress 3+ save is nice but you miss ont he killing blow and d3 wounds on the charge even a master will reliably kill stuff like a frostheart phenix on the charge with the potion of foolhardiness ...4 attacks hitting auto wounding on 4+ with re rolls of ones so realistically 3 wounds multiply to d3 BAM even if he survives you will win combat rezz big time.
If you want to pegasus your sorc I suggest granting her a regular ward save.
If you want to roll with the corsairs I suggest granting the standard of discipline without master ld 9 with master ld 10 --> good.
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What worries me about the cloak on a fighter is the lack of ward in combat. A 1+ save these days on a character often actually isn't enough... if he goes into said monster or whatnot and fails to kill it, he is in big big trouble.
I like it on the sorceress because it's the closest thing to the old pendant. I can fly her wherever I need without worrying about getting shot up. And it may be psycological but the 3+ vs the 4+ ward seems just a lot.
It might work out ok on fighters, I just worry.
Really want to try out the beastlord on manticore with all the upgrades. THat thing is gonna pump out a tonne of attacks (whatever it's base is, +2D3 + Thunderstomp) and with killing blow. Might not be optimal, but not too shabby, especially now it has a 4+ save.
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I think the Manticor will be fun regarding the glittering cloak and fighting characters.....well the fear is irrational it is a bit like with the war altar, in my mind it will be killed every game turn one...in reality it always was killed at some point in cc or survives.
a 1+ save is amazing even against high S targets, I am a cheap basterd and never hand out ward saves to characters in my army...I just fail them anyway all the time when I get some. If you fight a monster it wonīt get thunderstomp against the Peggy captain so it usually comes with 4-5 attacks at average weapon skill so hitting on 4+ ...2-2,5 hits wounding on 2+ so lets so roughly 2 wounds against S6 you still have a 4+ save so 1 wound goes through against the 3 wounds of a peggy captain you have 3 rounds of combat.
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Are assassins worth using, do you think? They are quite expensive, and don't have as many upgrades as previously.
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I think assassins are one of the worst choices in the book, unfortunately.
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Damn. I think my assassin looks really nice!
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I like the shades! But I have metal ones.
I thought you had some harpies already?
You could get the gameszone delfs. Use them as executioners!
I'm going to have two pegasus riders in my list, I think.
Cauldron of blood: too many points? 300 or so... hmmm. :icon_confused:
I've got some of the older- beasty looking harpies. But they got nerfed a bit too.
the gamezone delfs are too blackguardy for Execs, aren't they?
CoB is very expensive
but how many models does it count as? 10 or something. So can remove that from the cost perhaps. I certainly dont think its a must take, but probably good in certain lists.
Damn. I think my assassin looks really nice!
use an assassin then!
lord on manticore does sound fun. Glittering cloak a must for that.
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Hmmm, were harpies cheaper before? I think the stats are the same. I suppose with their poor leadership they will struggle to fly-march if near things. And they won't kill anything.
Blackguard = executioners, model-wise. Not different enough for it to matter.
I think the cauldron takes up the space of 15 models. But it's 300 points including character and being a BSB. Probably not worth it.
I don't want to use an assassin if he's just a waste of points. I might just use him as a shade. He looks like them anyway.
I have a manticore, but it looks a bit rubbish. Dodgy '90s model! I might be too ashamed to use it.
Banner on dark riders = bad idea? I think it would look nice.
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Hmmm, were harpies cheaper before? I think the stats are the same. I suppose with their poor leadership they will struggle to fly-march if near things. And they won't kill anything.
They are 4 points more expensive and now cause panic to dark elves. Overall, I don't plan on using them a whole lot anymore. Maybe sometimes, but I liked them for their cheapness.
I don't want to use an assassin if he's just a waste of points. I might just use him as a shade. He looks like them anyway.
I'm a bit sad they didn't majorly improve the assassin. For the fluff, they should be able to kill just about any character and then not die. The only thing that makes me think I might use them every now and again now is the magic item allowance. Might put a ward on him or something, or maybe magic weapon to make his initial attack amazing... not sure yet. But he always failed and then died last book so I gave up on him.
a 1+ save is amazing even against high S targets, I am a cheap basterd and never hand out ward saves to characters in my army...I just fail them anyway all the time when I get some. If you fight a monster it wonīt get thunderstomp against the Peggy captain so it usually comes with 4-5 attacks at average weapon skill so hitting on 4+ ...2-2,5 hits wounding on 2+ so lets so roughly 2 wounds against S6 you still have a 4+ save so 1 wound goes through against the 3 wounds of a peggy captain you have 3 rounds of combat.
Hmm, maybe I am being unfair on the 1+ save... I guess time will tell. I like running the 1+ rerollable right now. Probably gonna see a lot of usage on my BSBs...
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The assassin can jump out, yell 'surprise!' and then fail to kill anyone. :icon_sad:
I think I'm going to use banners on both dark rider units. You don't get too many victory points for capturing, as far as I remember.
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Just 25, not so bad. Plus is you play scenarios it can help you out in the fortitude one. Plus they often charge into small things like war machines and fluff half their attacks so something that boosts your resolution by one can't hurt...
I usually leave them out for points reasons but it's not such a bad idea...
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I don't think I've ever played the fortitude scenario! Or that one with a tower in it.
10 points to buy a banner isn't too bad. It's only two thirds of a harpy!
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But which two thirds?
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You don't do the roll for scenario thing ever?
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Just 25, not so bad. Plus is you play scenarios it can help you out in the fortitude one. Plus they often charge into small things like war machines and fluff half their attacks so something that boosts your resolution by one can't hurt...
I usually leave them out for points reasons but it's not such a bad idea...
They wont fluff attacks anymore, rerolling hits and rerolling 1s to wound! murdersaurus
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You don't do the roll for scenario thing ever?
I've definitely played the mountain pass one and the reserve-y one a couple of times each. Otherwise I guess I haven't used scenarios? I'm not sure.
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Ive never played the tower one, its meant to be bent! Pretty sure Ive done all the others though.
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The tower one is a bit dodgy but mainly if you know you are going to be playing it in advance. I think the thing with scenarios is that if you have no idea which one you might have to play you have to build your army to try and survive any of them. Hence say a less than 20 man core unit, which I know I often don't have, plenty of banners for the fortitude one, some speed elements incase the random placement one screws you up.
I think often the problem is that most people (myseld included) for instance lets roll but not include watchtower. Well that saves you havkng to build for that. I dunnk, I think they could have done a better job at sorting out the win conditions. Eg I would rather have a VP total for holding the watchtower or breaking fortitude rather than outright win cos that would add an element of there is always something to play for...
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An assassin seems to be able to deploy with shades at 12" and charge 1st turn, leaving the shades here. Shades will just move & shoot as usual.
That might provide a use to them.
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Is he allowed to make a first turn charge? I thought that was prohibited.
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That might just be vanguarders, but I'm not sure.
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It is prohibited for scouts and vanguarders, but the assassin is neither.
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but what will he actually kill?
iirc, they used to be considerably better.
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Pro tip from a long time (Skaven) Assassin user: potion of strength, job done. Rerollable (due to ASF) S7 attacks wreck a lot of shit when you need it to count.
Is it worth getting an Assassin overall? No idea, but if you want to have a good chance of killing something valuable the potion is ace.
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Pro tip from a long time (Skaven) Assassin user: potion of strength, job done. Rerollable (due to ASF) S7 attacks wreck a lot of shit when you need it to count.
Is it worth getting an Assassin overall? No idea, but if you want to have a good chance of killing something valuable the potion is ace.
you can give him killing blow for the same points- 4 strength 7 attacks or 4 strength 4 but killing blow?
I guess he dies after one combat mostly.
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I'd take S7 any day. And yeah, the lack of a ward save sucks - the Skaven one has a 4++ dodge save built in. He still dies fast, but he often at least survives to round 2.
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PROOOOOO TIP OF THE DAY!!!.....IF Aldaris wouldnīt have posted it I would have suggested it...that said the Skaven Assassin is a bit better as he comes with a built in 4+ ward save...he is just dodgery as his Dark Elf superhuman speed copy cat.
I do think the Assassin is now more appropriate compared to the last edition super human throwing star killer....Assassins aka Ninjas in pop culture are just silly over powered a prepared professional soldier usually had better weapons offensive and defensive the Assassin lived from surprise and usually tried to kill an unarmed or prone victim....on a battlefield the regular hero soldier guy should make mincemeat out of him should he survive the first strike.
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So I ended up getting in 2 games yesterday, one was 1500pts vs Empire, the other 1000pts vs Bretonnians.
For the first game, I took:
Dreadlord on Pegasus
L2 Dark Sorceress with furion
Death Hag BSB Cry of War
20 Witch Elves
12 Executioners
6 Cold Ones
5 Dark Riders
Kharibdryss
I was against:
Arch Lector + BSB mounted in:
10 GW Knights
5 Pistoliers
5 Knights
3 Demigryphs
Hurricanum
L2 Fire Wizard
Cannon
Helblaster + Engineer
20 Spearmen
It looked a bit like this:
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/8003_10151968828661133_1297111779_n.jpg)
I won't go into too much detail, but I was trying out a mini attempt at a leadership based list. I could auto get the LD spell with the tome of furion, I had the Hag with -3 LD fear tests and the Kharib with it's howl.
As it happened, I lost my sorceress to a pistolier volley I never saw coming in turn 1. Also, the helblaster obliterated 11 witch elves. But the rest of the game swung totally my way. The executioners had to block off the demis which got them run off, though they avoided being run over.
But the kharib and cold ones dual charged the big knight unit and cut down 6 of them, even with the 5+ ward prayer on. The knights failed their test due to the lack of reroll from the kharib and died. We played on another turn to see if he could get some points back by helblasting my general to death, but he survived whilst the kharib ate the hurricanum and the dark riders killed the artillery and hangers on.
Rediculously good rolling meant I barely needed a reroll. Not much to take from this in regards to the new book except that I am still not 100% convinced about executioners in MSU and that I was impressed with the kharib as a support combat unit. More so than the hydra. The S7 and LD threat was rather tasty.
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Game 2 was against Bretonnnians and 1000pts. My army was:
12 Darkshards
2 x 5 Dark Riders
Reaper
12 Executioners
12 Sisters of Slaughter
Master on Steed with GW
L2 Shadow Sorceress
This list was mainly to see how the Sisters fared. I was facing 3 Knight Lances and a couple of Pegasus Knights. It looked like this:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1385511_10151968829291133_719826411_n.jpg)
Now this guy hasn't played much fantasy and certainly not much under 8th so a few of us tried to help out but I think he put himself in trouble from deployment. He should have risked the missile fire and got right up as close as he could so he could combo charge me off the board. In the end, I just kept backing off with my executioners whilst another unit hit the Sisters. They actually performed quite well, though they were under the influence of Wyssans and Speed of Light quite a bit from the soceress portal they parked next to.
With their rank negating bonus and 4+ ward, I think I might give them further chances sometimes as a kinda flanking support unit. The rank killer is pretty huge and they are not totally flimsy. The boost against S4 things is nice too.
I ended up whittling him down far enough that he threw in the towel in the end. Unluckily he miscast and ST10ed most of one of his units to death. I reapered some more from the other units too.
All in all, the day wasn't a great indicator of where the army is at, but gave me a chance to see a couple of the new units in combat action which was quite handy.
Another dark elf player who was there was running 2 units of warlocks in a game against dwarfs. They did really well for him, albeit magic was a bit of a no show.
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Dark elves are op all your achievements are void....:-) congrats to the games..it seems fun was had. I just got my ass handed by woid elves.
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I'm certainly not gonna feel like I have a good feel of how good they are till I have a truly challenging game. Small points games are fun and all but not very helpful. Maybe a 2500ish game vs a well honed balanced army...
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Good reports, Siby!
The remaining delf units are up for preorder:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCatsLarge.jsp?catId=cat440004a&rootCatGameStyle=wh
Prices as expected on dark riders and black guard, but the chariot is a bit more than I thought it would be (helf lion chariot is 18, vs 25 for delf chariot).
Wait, the dark rider legs are attached to the horses!
I quite like the dark riders even so.
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I kinda don't wanna use the warlocks just because everyone says they are so good...
I have 15 dark riders already too.... Hmm enough? :-P
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1) witch elfs 35. BG and execs 30. Why? Because gw, that's why.
2) you expected the chariot to cost the same as the helf one first released years ago?
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2) you expected the chariot to cost the same as the helf one first released years ago?
Be quiet.
Actually, looking at the chariot more closely, there are two sets of crew and two sets of chariot sides, in addition to two sets of draft animals. So, if you make a new haft, chariot floor and wheel, you can make two chariots from one kit.
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BG and chariot are nice, rest dog ugly. Fantasy seems to be trending to big static looking blocks. Probably a good move, but the prices are prohibitive.
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The execs are way nicer than I thought, although the masks just slightly ruin the model... Love the idea of the masks but just not quite the execution.
The warlocks look a lot better than I remember. Weird tentacle hair is just the paint job I think.
I actually really like the chariot as well!
If this was normal priced, I'd have bought a crap load. Favourite release ijn terms of models... Probably since dark eldar.
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The execs are way nicer than I thought, although the masks just slightly ruin the model.
Just use the black guard helmets on them.
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How much were coks when release, and corsairs?
I think Ģ12 each
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That's right.
But corsairs are Ģ15 now, while cold one knights are Ģ20.
I'm sure it makes sense to someone!
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I actually quite like the Black Guard.
It's a shame they are too overpriced to actually buy any.
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That's right.
But corsairs are Ģ15 now, while cold one knights are Ģ20.
I'm sure it makes sense to someone!
sad finlay is sad.
at Ģ12 for cav, Ģ12 for infantry and Ģ15 for elite infantry I'd buy an entire army new.
at Ģ15 for cav and infantry, and Ģ18 for elite infantry I'd probably still buy a fair bit.
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I know I am gonna hold off and see what appears on ebay etc.
I'd love a kharibdryss and some execs to finish out them. Maybe a chariot kit. A box of witches.
Interesting how little they did character wise this release. I know there are already finecast ones out there but only releasing a corsair guy and shadowblade is weird. A Pegasus kit would have gone down a storm surely... Has GW given up on making them anymore I wonder.
Ah well, guess there is always the Bretonnian Pegasus... :engel:
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So, Execs are better than black guard.
Are black guard good enough to not be hamstringing you if taking them?
I think yes.
how big a unit?
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21
7 wide.
And no they arenīt bad enough to have people compare them with greatswords.
7 grant you 21 attacks that have against every regular unit 19 hits and against toughness 3 15 wounds. I donīt think you would hamstring yourself immensly with them.
Play lore of Shadow for Okkams sillyness .....or dark magic to make them S5 and put Swordmasters to shame.
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when I was looking at the lore, I didn't realise the wizard had to be in the unit for the +1strength spell. :(
oh well, warlocks get wyssan's, don't they?
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Nope they have soulblight enemy unit -1 S -1 T or all enemies within 24 inches -1 S -1 T...the spell I used on you and JAmes in our doubles game.
Better than Wyssans I think .
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ah, soulblight is a game winner if popped at the right time!
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Yes only d3 hits with ward save really arenīt that bad if you have a miscast either.....warlocks = +++
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units of 5 without anything else?
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Hmm I would run them 6 or even 10
and I suggest if you go for 6 getting two units of them the rare selection of the dark elves isnīt that crowded these days.
They are great light cav on their own without their gadgets dishing out 12 attacks with re rolls to hit against most enemies re roll to wound the ones and poison + 6 from the horses make them lethal against other light cav units or light chaff units they also should be able to take out artillery.
If you include a champion and put him on the flank you can use them as great speed bumps show the flank with the champion facing the enemy and he can kill only the champion...especially nasty for Warriors of Chaos as you can challenge and only his champion and yours fight.
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Why 6?
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They come in fives, so units of six are awkward!
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Apparently the designer of the streeds has said that they look that way because the horses are supposed to be misstreated by the dark elves and so are emaciated, hence the lips are pulling back from the teeth.
Odd, but I guess there is your reason.
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Since they mistreated and famished, I suppose they should be movement 7 and strength 2, what a poor poor poor and silly clash between the miniature concept and simple logic. I also find ridiculous that because dark elves are bad boys, they have to behave bad with everything. I guess they are too bad and mean to take care of things like sharpening their blades, feeding their horses or their monsters...
Such a bad concept make me sad, really sad :cry:
Porkix
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Since they mistreated and famished, I suppose they should be movement 7 and strength 2, what a poor poor poor and silly clash between the miniature concept and simple logic. I also find ridiculous that because dark elves are bad boys, they have to behave bad with everything. I guess they are too bad and mean to take care of things like sharpening their blades, feeding their horses or their monsters...
Such a bad concept make me sad, really sad :cry:
Porkix
agreed.
Just ignore all the awful fluff! I'll simply file their teeth down when I get some. my DE are just pirates. ARRR
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I also find ridiculous that because dark elves are bad boys, they have to behave bad with everything. I guess they are too bad and mean to take care of things like sharpening their blades, feeding their horses or their monsters...
It's like how the nazis never bothered to get their tanks serviced.
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I also find ridiculous that because dark elves are bad boys, they have to behave bad with everything. I guess they are too bad and mean to take care of things like sharpening their blades, feeding their horses or their monsters...
It's like how the nazis never bothered to get their tanks serviced.
Which lead to all kinds of mishaps. I hear some Nazis even fired unpolished brass ammunition at times !
Now who would want to be hit by an unpolished shell ?
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It's like how the nazis never bothered to get their tanks serviced.
Which lead to all kinds of mishaps. I hear some Nazis even fired unpolished brass ammunition at times !
Will you two stop with these inane generalisations and inferring your opinions or statements are irrefutable facts when there is no actual proof at all - damn it you sound like an american .............................. :closed-eyes:
:engel:
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OK, fine: 20% of nazis didn't get their tanks serviced.
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I'm sure the tank corps did, though.
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which 20 %...the bearded or the ones without?
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which 20 %...the bearded or the ones without?
The ones that had no beards. Or tanks for that matter... They were known as the Luftwaffe.
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I also find ridiculous that because dark elves are bad boys, they have to behave bad with everything. I guess they are too bad and mean to take care of things like sharpening their blades, feeding their horses or their monsters...
It's like how the nazis never bothered to get their tanks serviced.
:icon_lol:
I know why I missed you.
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Had a game yesterday and it was against Dark Elves!
I was Orcs and took a bit of a non-optimal army to be fair, due to what I have available.
Black Orc Warboss with Axe of Stunty Smashin
L4 Night Gobbo Shaman
L2 Night GobboShaman
Gobbo BSB
Gobbo Boss on wolf with shield of ptolos
20 Black ORcs
30 Orcs with AHW
20 Night Gobbo Archers (fanatic)
20 Gobbos naked
3 x 5 Wolfriders
3 River Trolls
2 Doomdivers
Boltthrower
He had:
Malus Darkblade
BSB on Cold One
5 Cold One Knights
2 x 5 Darkriders
20 Darkshards
2 x 5 Warlocks
10 Shades with greatweapons
10 Sisters
2 Reapers
1 Chariot
We played the random deployment scenario which could have been disastorous for me but didn't turn out too bad, aside from my trolls getting stuck behind my other units.
Where it went badly wrong though was 2 failed animosity tests with my orc horde which messed up my advance big style. Also small units cannot get in combat with shades. They ate up the wolfriders and hero gobbo I threw at them and then proceeded to work through my warmachines and back field. If I could have just got a magic missile off on them. I also lost my big shaman down a cascade hole... my fanatic managed just one hit on the dark riders it went through. All my doomdiver shots missed pretty badly.
I would say that bad luck played a fairly large part, but it was interesting to see the killing power of the dark elves from the other side. My orcs eventually got in with his cold ones and Malus and were picked apart pretty badly, though they did kill all the cold ones which was nice. Malus is pretty handy but vulnerable. I took him down with my dieing breath when he flanked my black orcs. It was my personal little victory. But that was after he had killed the general.
All in all it was a fun game that I always felt like I was losing, but could see that a swing in fortune could bring me back if I got a bit lucky. Elves are so fragile if you can survive the initial hit you can murder them back...
The warlocks were handy for sure but the sisters got stuck behind his other units so they never got to do anything.
Food for thought anyways...
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Supreme Sorceress, level 4, dark pegasus, 4+ward. 315
master, full mundane armour, Halberd, Dragon Egg 134
master, full mundane armour, bsb, Halberd 109
30 corsairs, AHW, full command. 360
5 dark riders, spears, bows, musicians. 105
5 dark riders, spears, bows, musicians. 105
10 rxbmen 120
5 CoK, 150
21 Blackguards, full command. 345
5 shades, GW, 90
2 RBTs 140
kharybdiss 160
5 warlocks 125
5 warlocks 125
117 pts to give protection to the BSB and buy... something else?
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Just looked at the models on the GW site. The Dark Elves have a fantastic model line now, that is for sure!
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Yeh they do. I saw the witch elves and blackguard in the flesh the other day. Quite impressive, though no one wants to use the exec heads!
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I love the executioner's heads. They would be great additions to various Dark Eldar models.
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Shame they're way too expensive to actually buy any, but yes on the whole I like them. I actuallt even like the exec heads, after initially hating them
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Ow, $50 isn't TOO bad, but it does seem a little high.
On the other hand $60 for 10 witch elves is CRAZY.
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all the elite infantry prices are retarded. even the spearmen prices to me are retarded.
dark riders/warlocks, CoK and corsairs are all just about reasonably prices.
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Yeah, but 5 sternguard are $50 too, so it doesn't have the same impact on me to see 10 for $50!
That said, you need like 3 boxes to field executioners reall, while only two are needed for sternguard.
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40k is much more price friendly.
MUCH MUCH more price friendly.
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The good news is that the old metals were all pretty good so I feel no need to replace what I already had.
I may buy a box of execs at some point just so I can bump them to 30 but non of my minis feel outdated really. Bar some of my old dark riders I guess...
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Supreme Sorceress, level 4, dark pegasus, 4+ward. 315
master, full mundane armour, Halberd, Dragon Egg 134
master, full mundane armour, bsb, Halberd 109
30 corsairs, AHW, full command. 360
5 dark riders, spears, bows, musicians. 105
5 dark riders, spears, bows, musicians. 105
10 rxbmen 120
5 CoK, 150
21 Blackguards, full command. 345
5 shades, GW, 90
2 RBTs 140
kharybdiss 160
5 warlocks 125
5 warlocks 125
117 pts to give protection to the BSB and buy... something else?
Some thoughts...
How about 3+ ward on the peg sorceress. It doesn't work in combat but I am assuming she doesn't want to do that anyhow...
Dawnstone on BSB for reroll 1+ save? Just avoid ignore armour save things.
Do you have more shades? I got milkweed by 10 gw shades the other day. Ate up my chaff like nobody's business!
Nice solid looking list though.
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Supreme Sorceress, level 4, dark pegasus, 4+ward. 315
master, full mundane armour, Halberd, Dragon Egg 134
master, full mundane armour, bsb, Halberd 109
30 corsairs, AHW, full command. 360
5 dark riders, spears, bows, musicians. 105
5 dark riders, spears, bows, musicians. 105
10 rxbmen 120
5 CoK, 150
21 Blackguards, full command. 345
5 shades, GW, 90
2 RBTs 140
kharybdiss 160
5 warlocks 125
5 warlocks 125
117 pts to give protection to the BSB and buy... something else?
Some thoughts...
How about 3+ ward on the peg sorceress. It doesn't work in combat but I am assuming she doesn't want to do that anyhow...
Dawnstone on BSB for reroll 1+ save? Just avoid ignore armour save things.
Do you have more shades? I got milkweed by 10 gw shades the other day. Ate up my chaff like nobody's business!
Nice solid looking list though.
the 3+ was going on a pegasus master, but I ran out of points.
dawnstone seems solid, and yes I have the ability to make more shades!
for this army I'd need to sort the masters, 5 DR, the blaggards, the RBTs and the warlocks.
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Just noticed I said milkweed! Haha
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Just wrote a 2000pt list that feels a bit weird but I might try it today:
28 corsairs, standard of discipline, RHB
Supreme Sorceress l4 dark, sac dagger, 4+ward
Master bsb, 1+ refillable and sword of might
(Those all go together in horde formation with characters on the sides.
2 x 5 dark riders with xbows
2 x reapers
Hydra with breath
6 cold one knights
Master on pegasus, cloak of twilight, 1+ save, lance xbow
Sorceress l2 shadow, dispel
8 shades inc champ, GW
(She sets up with them for protection)
Quite a lot of firepower but very delicate. Put the sorceress with the corsairs for power of darkness, plus sac daggering them if need be. The idea will be advance cautiously and pepper enemy with magic and shooting and see if the hydra and corsairs can finish stuff off. Could go very wrong though!
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I ended up playing against demons of the nurgle variety:
Great Unclean One
Herald
Herald bsb
25 Plaguebearers
25 Plaguebearers
3 elephant flies
Soulgrinder
It was an amazing game against an army that just refused to die. Would have made an excellent bat rep.
The soulgrinder charged into my corsairs who took a beating but then mindrazored it to dust!
I held back as long as possible but eventually he forced the issue with his 2 units so I had to charge the cold ones into one and the corsairs into the other. I managed to get mindrazor again and then a boosted word of pain on the other guys. Even with mindrazor it took a number of turns to grind down the 2 units.
It was swinging back and forth every turn including at one stage getting him down to 1 guy only for him to snake eyes the ones I had just killed back to life! My sorceress got sucked into the warp. If something crazy could happen it did happen!
At the end if the game I won, but I had 7 guys left on the board to his 2, one of which was his GUO on one wound! But mine were all fragments of units too. It was a bloodbath. I dunno how I pulled out the victory.
,
MVPs were the cold ones who performed above and beyond, the l2 sorceress for 2 mindrazors and the dark riders who always just rock. Corsairs... Better with double handweapons I think.
Later on I played a min battle against lizards and my peg hero heroic killing blowed a steggy on the charge... Epic!
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your list looks good siby, almost like my 2500 point one, without the blaggards, although I'd love to fit in a pegasus hero. They look greatly versatile tools.
Haven't lost a game yet, eh siby? :engel:
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Hehe, technically no... but I don't think it's all the elves. Everyone but me and my brother who I play are playing twice as much 40k as Warhammer so I actually have a way better knowledge of the rules just because of the focus on just one game and lack of confusion between the two (and even last edition as it's only recently that we are playing more than once every month or so, hence there are still some hangovers for people).
Plus I play a horribly cautious game... bit like in Magic where I like to wall up and survive till I can land a killing blow, that's sorta how I play Warhammer which works amazingly well with Dark Elves. Mostly. I usually try and fool people into thinking I want to come stomp them when really I am happy trading small stuff as I can often win that battle, then when they do come at me I back off until I can get a matchup I like.
Played a game with Vampires (just to try it) yesterday against Lizards and even with an all combat army I did that! Got lucky to sneak the win in that one cos I tihnk that would usually be a disastrous plan with Vampires. But I still tried it.
Anyways, yes, I just checked back and you are right, very similar list to yours! I'm gonna find it hard to ever not run peggy hero as he is just so handy on so many situations and with the cloak he can even go and surprise a monster if you get really lucky!
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Only luck..and his mastery of the game.
Worst his list even is kind of nice.
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There's no denying that elves hit like a tonne of bricks now. Still not sure about executioners though... at least as an auto choice. The lack of reroll to hit worries me slightly. I know it is really spoiled of me, but when you are used to those rerolls, missing half your attacks seems terrible!
I am hoping to get in a game against high elves next week... that could be interesting... I know he is running 2 phoenixes. That's all I know really.
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That is immensly spoiled....they hit at Ws5 S6 I5....at 12 points. Greatswords Ws4 S5 I....always strike last even zombies go before them.
Being used to 90 % hits is hard to get rid of though.....I agree.
Use Execs against the HIgh Elves..as against them they even get the re rolls. :biggriin:
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Hehe true!
Yeh, it is spoiled and there is no denying it but I have it with my 3 main armies so it is something I automatically feel I should have.
I kinda wanna use the blackguard next, as I am trying to work through everything and see how it goes. That and the beastmaster lord on manticore. Love him from a fluff perspective and if he doesn't get cannoned off, could do some damage. I always liked manticores and now they get a 4+ save, well, even better!
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So my dark elf friend is claiming scourgerunners have fast cav rule and hence can vanguard... I need to check my rulebook to see if there are any contradicting rules but if its true, that'd be kinda fun!
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No they arenīt.
Dark riders entry...Fast Cavalry....Scourgerunner...no fast cavalry.
Greedy dark elf gits trying to cheese even more out of the book.
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Knew I should have checked!
I like the idea of the bs7 beastmaster on that chariot with the cloak though for a fun game... S7 harpoon a monster and then reel it in for a heroic killing blow!
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Where do you get heroic killing blow from?
The Cloak grants killing blow...but no heroic killing blow. The Hydrasword grants heroic killing blows if you fail your ld test.
I was wondering that with the Stegadon kill with the hero on Pegasus....its IMPOSSIBLE :biggriin:
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In that case the master can do 9 wounds ( D3 per hit) and 3 from the pegasus.
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Haha, oops, is that really the case? In that case I owe him a stegadon... Though with d3 wounds I may well have took it down in a turn or 2 anyways... I guess maybe I was transfering the heroic bit from the sword...
Ah well, I don't feel too bad. I have forgotten a tonne of martial prowess, lore attribute and +1 to casts already! Lots of rules to keep up with now...
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So the CoB has a 3*5 model footprint right? Which means 28 guys will give you a 40 man horde with a bit of cauldron sticking out the back... Which means I can just about do that with my executioners. Even though I am still skeptical about them I am curious to see how it runs.
Measuring it out last night it seems like the old cauldron will take up enough of that base to not look silly, especially with the crew around it. Wondering if I can get away with no wheels too and leave it as it is, it moves by the will of the gods afterall!
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It is incredible how spoiled you are :biggriin:
Execs are amazing. I wouldnīt use the cauldron on them though re rolls to wound ...well wounding on 2+ and re rolling the 1s anyway no need for that. Frenzy and Ultra Frenzy is nice but not needed. If you field the cauldron it is best used with black guard or wytches.
I suggest you use units of 21 execs in 7*3 formation rocksolid on their own.
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Really I want to use it with my 50 spears, just because it will look huge! Black guard isn't a bad shout but I was kinda thinking it would also help my execs get the extra horde ranks, though that will of course benefit anyone.
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7 wide will grant you 14 attacks if you have two units of them fighting it is worth more than a single horde of 40. Spears also would be a great choice but your witches will on top of re rolling their to wound rolls and their to hit rolls gain a 5+ ward save. there really is no reason not to put it with them.
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Agreed if I field them indeed. I have a tendency to not like to take the same army twice in a row though so I will only be using witches sometimes. Unless they perform over and above that is. I did have a few things that saw the table almost every game in the previous book. Dark riders, cold one knights and spears were my go to units though I did sometimes trade the spears for corsairs.
Not sure yet if I will have a baseline again yet, though for some reason I can't leave cold one knights at home. They always perform for me. And dark riders for better so... Also 70pts reapers, will be hard not to take at least one. Outside of that I can see myself mixing it up now that there is no super obvious core choice. Always liked the corsair horde though and 4+ save seems yummy!
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4+ save with a fantastic profile yes they are perfect if you want to go shadow magic on the enemy.
If you give the Warlocks a try I am sure they will make it into your too good not to take list. And Dark Pegasus masters 1+ save, repeater handcrossbow brace, and lance alone makes them fantastic.
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That's oddly why I am holding back on warlocks. I hate using the 'best' units too much. For instance I have no stank or demigryphs in my Empire. That's partially for fluff reasons too, but when someone tells me I must take something I immediately don't want to. That's why I have 50 halberdiers, people were so determined you shouldn't use them last book that I decided to do just that!
As to the peg master, good point, I find it hard to leave him behind. So handy. Sometimes I use a horsemaster instead if I am tight on points but you lose a lot for that.
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There really is no reason to not take one or even two pegasus guys, dreadlord on Pegasus with the +2 S sword 1+ save and some ward save either the 3+ against range or 5+ against all might do.
S6 with High Ws and re rolls to hit...oh and re rolls to wound on 1.
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what models to use though!
and where do you put the level 4?
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and where do you put the level 4?
You don't. You take 2 units of warlocks and a level 2 scrolls caddy of beasts. Cauldren of blood has a bound spell so powerdice are alreadyd stretched.
I took my dark elves out of the shelved boxes a couple days ago and started painting my metal models. I started buying the models about 2 years ago and will now start assembling the army.
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I like the l4 on a Pegasus with the twilight cloak. Great for hopping around, not worrying about getting shot and casting magic at ppl. The only reason I havnt done the multi Peggy yet is only having one peg painted up. I used wood elf horse with dark peg wings. I have the morathi one too and really need to put it together.
Once I do, I will hsve to roll out the beastlord on manticore and 2 hero pegs combo. Team it up with dark riders and cold ones and have some fun!
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I like the l4 on a Pegasus with the twilight cloak. Great for hopping around, not worrying about getting shot and casting magic at ppl. The only reason I havnt done the multi Peggy yet is only having one peg painted up. I used wood elf horse with dark peg wings. I have the morathi one too and really need to put it together.
Once I do, I will hsve to roll out the beastlord on manticore and 2 hero pegs combo. Team it up with dark riders and cold ones and have some fun!
Sounds like a nice combo. I got the morathi model too and a Reaper dark elf pegasus that looks pretty sweet. All I got for big stuff is 2 hydra's and 3 cold one chariots(chasis from high elf).
I like that pretty much every unit is feasible. Its amazing how ASF + Weapon Skill 4 turns any unit into something that can actually perform on the tabletop.
Heh, what idiot decided empire swordsmen are worth 7pts while Dreadswords are worth 9pts.
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Maaaaaaat Waaaaaaard!
Or shall we use the Khan meme on Cruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuudfaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace!
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Surprised that with the revamp of the DE model line, they never redid those atrocious Shade and Harpy models. Any rumors on if new ones will be coming out anytime soon?
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No.
Second wave is dark riders! Warlocks and chariots, iirc
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I like the shades!
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Uh, I can't agree with you. I hated them when I bought them when they first came out. I've seen some cool kit bashed ones over on druchii.net but don't want to take the effort and expense to create my own - was hoping GW would redo them. Of course, since I'm not redoing my DE because of the prices, I guess it's academic at this point.
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Syn I agree with absolutely everything you said just there. I even put off buying them for years because I think they're awful, but eventually I did get some. Haven't got around to painting them though.
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Not that I have heard. But yeh that is kinda strange. They could have split the xbows from the combat units and done a xbow/shade set. Probably would have sold tonnes!
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Its so easy to make shades.
Wood elf bodies with dark elf crossbow arms. If you want a great-weapon you can throw that on too.
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Apparently there is controversy over the cauldron and not about the wound rerolls!
The book says that it is only treated as a character in regards to joining/leaving the unit. This possibly throws a whole bunch of weirdness into play with the hag.
Eg: doesn't have to accept challenges etc.
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It is a chariot. So the character on top is treated like a regular character nothing in the hags entry about not being a character. Once again dear dark elf players dont go down the skaven route trying to make already broken things even better.
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It's under will of the gods. It references the model, which is maybe where the confusion is. Course I guess it depends what model normally means to gw.
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That bit is definitely talking about the chariot.
Concluding that the witch elf character is not a character based on that would be insane!
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That's fine. I wasn't sure if GW used model to refer to separate parts or not. This is not my argument either. Just something I heard about.
Though doesn't killing blow not affect characters mounted on certain things because their unit type has changed? Like it can't kill a lector on a chariot because he is no longer a character troop type right?
Just playing devils advocate here. I really don't care either way. Just curious.
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...dont go down the skaven route trying to make already broken things even better.
Ahh yes. I remember some of my colleagues trying to argue that a Stormbanner could be just switched back on when it ran out since the entry lacked a spelled-out "one use only". What a lovely discussion that was!
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Though doesn't killing blow not affect characters mounted on certain things because their unit type has changed? Like it can't kill a lector on a chariot because he is no longer a character troop type right?
He's no longer infantry, but he's still a character. 'Character' isn't a troop type. It's an additional quality.
Like being a 'legend' in Magic!
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What about the fact that it says the 'model'. Is there a standard answer for what that means? I feel like I remember some confusion as to what that meant in the past (eg hatred for cold one knights, demigryphs etc). But I can never remember what the outcome usually is.
Can model mean individual parts?
Once again dear dark elf players dont go down the skaven route trying to make already broken things even better.
Hmm, think the faqs would show this being a somewhat universal trait.
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Can model mean individual parts?
I don't think there's a standard answer to that. Consistent terminology is something that happens to other games.
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Apparently there is controversy over the cauldron and not about the wound rerolls!
The book says that it is only treated as a character in regards to joining/leaving the unit. This possibly throws a whole bunch of weirdness into play with the hag.
Eg: doesn't have to accept challenges etc.
The rule says indeed that the COB (and the shrine) may join/leave a unit like a character, but is is not considered as a character besides that.
That rule does not say anything about the DH. "Will of Gods" rule does not remove anything from the fact that the DH is a character. The DH is still a character, riding a chariot.
So the DH may issue and accept a challenge. However, the DH may not refuse a challenge when the COB is in contact, because the COB cannot leave its position ever.
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This is the problem. There's lots of things that seem to have a logical answer but then he rules against logic and so I can't blame people for questioning stuff occasionally. Personally I question what on earth they were thinking when they made the fleetmaster. Is there any other lord in the history of the game who could only take 50pts of items? I'm not that worried cos the other lord choices are fine. It's just... Bizarre!
Callison, is the DH not part of the model then? I think that's where the 'confusion' lies. Not trying to be a pain, just trying to make sure I know for sure.
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The DH and the COB make together a single model indeed, that's 100% sure.
That's a multipart model in which one part is a character, and the other part is a mount.
Read the "will of gods" rule, it says that the COB (i.e. the mount part of the model) is treated as a character for joining and leaving purpose, and nothing else.
It says nothing about the DH, who remains what she is.
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It is like any regular chariot ridden by a character with a special rule that allows it to enter a unit. The special rule just states that it can do that like a character but in all other regards the chariot isnīt treated as a character.
Ahh yes. I remember some of my colleagues trying to argue that a Stormbanner could be just switched back on when it ran out since the entry lacked a spelled-out "one use only". What a lovely discussion that was!
Sadly there are very few generals that are a gentleman like you regarding rules, discussing blurry ones beforehand and you usually always in doubt go in favour of your opponent. More Skaven player like you and their bad reputation would be wiped away within a single edition.
:::cheers:::
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This is kinda why I am bringing this stuff up now, before I attempt to use them.
As it is, I don't know that the cauldron will see much use from me. I get nervous pumping one unit with so many points unless I absolutrly can't avoid it.
But I certainly want to see how it does....
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This is the problem. There's lots of things that seem to have a logical answer but then he rules against logic and so I can't blame people for questioning stuff occasionally. Personally I question what on earth they were thinking when they made the fleetmaster. Is there any other lord in the history of the game who could only take 50pts of items? I'm not that worried cos the other lord choices are fine. It's just... Bizarre!
Callison, is the DH not part of the model then? I think that's where the 'confusion' lies. Not trying to be a pain, just trying to make sure I know for sure.
Ya the fleetmaster seems like an editing error on GW part. Because we all know they type up their books, do an auto spellcheck, and then submit it for printing. Fleetmaster was probably in the heroes section and then the author accidentally hit a button the keyboard and it went to Lords section.
And the one magic item you would a want to put on the fleetmaster costs 60pts.
I like the book and think its great but the magic items are pretty bad. Sac Dagger and Dragon egg are the only ones that are worth it. OH and the 3+ ward vs shooting for a Sorcress on peg. The 100pt hydra blade has to be the worst weapon to date!!!
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Yeh hydra blade is up there.
I think the tome is ok if you want a certain dark magic spell for say a level 2 (like for instance the ls spell) without having to max out on dark magic to be sure, but probably will only take it then.
The ring of hotek I think could be used if you put the character centrally in your lines. Could make a nice little pain kn the butt for your opponent, but not going to see regular usage by me!
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Chillblade and hydrasword are really bad rest are some mediocre and the egg and the cloak are amazing.
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Taking an egg into battle would be embarrassing.
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Breakfast of the champions!
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In Dark Elf Naggaroth, egg turns you into an omelet!
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While hating you!!
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Taking an egg into battle would be embarrassing.
Well it could be eggciting ............
But it might be eggasperating for your opponent.
:closed-eyes:
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I dunno if I would call the egg amazing. I havnt felt the need to take it yet.
I would love to take it against lizards though and have a battle of the eggs!
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S and T 6 with re rolls to hit and wound the 1 s means one round in which a peggy lord can punch through knights with no return wounds or you just fly next to a horde and flame them. Also great for a wizard to make sure he survives the enemy turn of combat.
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In britian the egg would be on toast
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Taking an unusual list today vs what will likely be lizards:
L4 sorceress on dark peg: death: cloak of twilight, earthing rod
Master BSB: ring of hotek, 1+ save
Sorceress L2: heavens: dispel
29 Corsairs inc command, ahw
5 Dark Riders inc mus: no xbows
10 Darkshards inc Mus: sh
21 Black Guard inc Mus and Stan
Hydra with breath
7 shades inc champ: l.a, ahw
Cold One Chariot
2000
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Also, I just remembered I made a bunch of prebook predictions so I thought I'd see how well I did...
As the Dark Elf book might be coming out soon, I thought it might be fun to make a bunch of predictions and see how close I can get... I haven't really heard any rules rumours so this will be purely opinion, some a bit random... I hope that book comes out in a few weeks... let's see how close I can get...
Core:
Spears - go up to 8 or 9 points
Corsairs - no change
Xbows - up one point to 11
Dark Riders - unchanged
Overall I don't think there should be too many changes. If spearmen go up I think crossbows need to go up or you may never see a spear again.
Well I was close with most of this, didn't expect dark riders to get so much better though! One point off in most cases though, go me!
Special:
Black Guard - Up one point, cap taken off Nearly!
Executioners - no change. I think you only don't see them because black guard are such better value If you ignore ASF, yes!
Witch Elves - hmm, tough. Maybe a built in 6+ ward, up 1WS points remain the same. Who knows... might pick up a new special rule Wrong!
Chariots - cold ones +1 atk, remain same points Didn't see the points change coming
Cold Ones Knights - Cold ones +1 atk, stay the same besides that Ditto above
Shades - drop a point Nope! But with ASF that is ok!
Rare:
Cauldron of Blood with no character pop up here? If the Medusa thing counts I'm right :-P
Hydra - hmm, maybe up to 200pts but stay the same Totally wrong
Reapers - down to 70 exactly like high elves Ding!
New thing that looks just like a cauldron of blood but isn't... Ding!
Lords:
Hag Queen lord choice Alas no, though I like the Beastmaster dude more I think
Other lords stay the same
Heroes:
Assassins move here, get a bit cheaper Yes!
I could see another new hero choice but not sure... return of the beastmaster No! Unless you count him being a lord
Magic:
Dark Magic revamped, maybe with 2 sig spells like high elves as they are the opposite... Give me a gold star!
Trying to come up with a lore attribute, perhaps something to pump up your units like the high elves got... but different Erm, no
Overall:
Hatred will stay (ok that is just hoping!) If by hatred I meant ASF then yes!
Revamp of khainite rules so that you can mix characters in better (or not, I'm not overlyconvinced on this) Hmm, I think I get points for this!
Ok, well that's my predictions based of recent books and how they seem to be doing things. I would love a whole new non monster unit too but it's not like it's really necessary, dark elves already have a lot of nice stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to see plastic dark riders with some alternative new unit too like witch elves or corsairs on horses... Hey I think I kinda get points for this too!
Fingers crossed we can see how badly wrong I am soon. :-P
Not too shabby overall, though most of what I said was pretty easy to predict anyways based on recent books.
Well I am off soon to see how Black Guard and the ring of hotek work these days...
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The red is burning my eyes out.....
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Taking an unusual list today vs what will likely be lizards:
L4 sorceress on dark peg: death: cloak of twilight, earthing rod
Master BSB: ring of hotek, 1+ save
Sorceress L2: heavens: dispel
29 Corsairs inc command, ahw
5 Dark Riders inc mus: no xbows
10 Darkshards inc Mus: sh
21 Black Guard inc Mus and Stan
Hydra with breath
7 shades inc champ: l.a, ahw
Cold One Chariot
2000
How is this an unusual list? looks like what I plan, basically.
How did it do?
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Fair question.
Lately I have been running at least 2 units of dark riders + at least one, usually 2, reapers.
Also the death/heavens magic is a first for me.
And the chariot and black guard are also firsts under the new book.
Think I have had CoKnights every game thus far too.
As to how it went... I will fill that in tomorrow!
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Well, I was taking on 2 24ish blocks of saurus, a block of temple guard with High Magic Slaan, 2 small sets of chameleons and a Scar Vet on Carnosaur.
Here's a pic after his first turn:
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1463921_10152091533656133_406486387_n.jpg)
He went pretty offensive which I think was totally the right thing to do. My combat blocks are dangerous but have no staying power really. I had tried to anchor my flank on the house. We were going blood and glory by the way, except breaking fortitude got 400VPs.
So I did something horrible at this point. I flew my pegceross between his blocks and managed to get out a purple sun, rolled 30". It plowed through his temple guard and a unit of saurus killing 26 total. Not cool really, but luck went my way not getting it dispelled. I pulled back with my Corsairs and Hydra cos I wanted to delay a combo charge from the carny and TG. My Black Guard went into his depleted Saurus and with soulblight and curse of the midnight wind massacred what was left and overran out of the arc of the carny. All in all a brutal start.
Well, the Slaan got some revenge by casting Convovation on the Black Guard who spent the rest of the game gradually burning to death. He put the carnosaur up in my grill and so I charged it with the corsairs and hydra. I felt bad because the corsairs somehow managed to get 6 wounds through on the carny and he saved only 1 4+. Had it survived even on one wound he could have apotheosised it back to health. As it was, the hydra then flamed the scar vet who also failed his 4+ wards...
I was using the dark riders all game to dance infront of units at angles to mess up their charges. This feels really mean but is such a useful tactic. Chaff is amazing and definitely worth having something that can deal with it.
Anywho, I managed to get another purple sun through his 2 units once the saurus were in combat with the corsairs. My magic was just incredible all game. His was good too. Convocation killed a bunch of stuff. But I can see why death magic is so popular right now. I never use it normally, but purple sunning and then getting all your dice back... ouch! The corsairs and chariot took care of the saurus unit and then it was just left to deal with the temple guard who were so few that it was pretty easy.
I think had I have not got through those spells when I did it would have been a much closer game. The sorceress was top notch. Being 3+ ward save and never having to face combat is so hard to be dealt with if you don't have some fliers or such. Against such a static army it really did the trick.
Pleased with the black guard but to be honest things were so stacked in their favour it wasn't a fair test.
We are planning a campaign in the early spring and someone suggested a little thing to help keep magic down slightly and I like it. He suggested that irresistible dispel should be able to counter irresistible force but if you manage to hit it, both players roll a d6 and add their wizard level. If the dispeller wins the spell is countered and both wizards take a miscast! I really like this cos it suggest an epic battle of power and the resultant fallout. Also it gives you some hope against those unit deleting spells..l
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Well done on the game....
magic and movement ARE very important in 8th edition....Hordes only really are worth it if you can get them in the right confrontations.
He also should have considered the purple sun and spread his units more cold blooded Saurus donīt panic easily anyway.
He also could and should have hid the Carnosaurs in terrain and behind units to increase the difficulty hitting it. I would have moved around the houses and come up at the flank when the Saurus would be close to your front.
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Me too I think. He had the space to push it round a flank and I think I'd have done that even though it might have meant it not hitting combat till turn 3 or 4. I probably would have concentrated my magic on the sorceress to start with cos even with a 3+ save, 4d6 hits or something could have taken her down.
But them I am a defensive player who likes to hold back until I feel an overwhelming chance of success. If I took lizards I would probably take a lot of firepower and sit back and blast them until they came to me and then try and pick my battles or make them make horrible choices... but I've never used them so I don't know how effective that would be with the new book...
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Skink skirmishers are rather good ..think is with lizards they are very reliable.
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Yes I would definitely use them. Handy chaff and put out serious danger to monsters and the like. I would probably use single salamanders too. And one of the flying units.
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I think the etheral slann is very good too with magic resistance almost untouchable. I think while iconic Sauruss arent the best choice
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The ethereal slann is interesting. Untouchable by range but if you can somehow get something handy into him, you can crumble him. I like him in the temple guard. You get a great bodyguard. I almost never kill the slann even if i win!
If I played lizards I would certainly tryout the ghost slann though. I guess if you give him some closeby protection he should be fine.
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still not lost a game huh sibeltron?
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The only lost game I have had lately was when I took orcs against dark elves. Hehe. Not good for my trying to claim they aren't too good!
What I should do is try and play a reverse game vs my brother or something. I really feel lizzies have a chance of beating them but that is hard to prove as the elf guy.
To be honest magic really has been the deciding factor in a few of those games. I don't know why, but before this book I had never toyed with the big spells, bar pit. But lately I have used mindrazor and purple sun and they have been devastating. Lack of magical defense on my opponents part probably didn't help though.
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Well in Germany most tournaments limit the max dice you can use for a spell to 4 so the big versions of killer spells are rare and unlikely to fire...and if they do you usually can dispel.
Every army can beat every other but there are some that start out with a huuuuuge advantage dark elves since the rather bad 6th edition book are that kind of army.
Thing is with Empire you have equalizers (Cannon, Stank, Demigryphons) that help going toe to toe with any of those armies but in most comped tournaments those equalizers are banned. While armies like Dark Elves are usually left unmolested.
Thing is Pegasus wizards and heroes with a good ward save are amazingly efficient you can kill chaff and are hard to get rid off same with the 3+ ward save tzeentch guys on discs. They are also way to cheap for what they bring....Take the Dark Pegasus...for a Master you gain +1 armour, +1 T, +1 W....amazing.
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Yeh high and dark elves have it pretty good right now, will be interesting to see if wood elves jump up to the big leagues too. My guess is yes! Still think lizzies are up there even though they ain't the very top of the bunch. But its hard to say exactly what the powers are unless you ignore comp altogether. Even then its a tad tricky.
I still think that overall the books are more balanced than in the past, ignoring the non new ones, with a few a bit higher and a few a bit lower, but it seems now that they have good and bad matches more than they used to against certain opponents.
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I say, your army looks lovely, Siberius! Any close-ups?
Well it could be eggciting ............
But it might be eggasperating for your opponent.
Yes, you might shatter his plans and send him scrambling.
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I say, your army looks lovely, Siberius! Any close-ups?
Thanks! As it happens... yes!
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=24930.50 (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=24930.50)
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Dude. You are good.
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:blush:
So in looking through my painting thread again I saw this 2000pt army and was curious how it would point up under the new book. Here goes!
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/Army_zps748910dd.jpg)
239] Dreadlord on Peg: H.A, SDC, Crown of Command, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation
142] Master on Dark Steed: H.A, SDC, Sh, Dawnstone, Sword of Battle, Potion of Foolhardiness
300] Death Hag BSB with Cauldron
140] 10 Darkshards inc mus: sh
140] 10 Darkshards inc mus: sh
90] 5 Dark Riders inc mus
90] 5 Dark Riders inc mus
300] 30 Dreadspears inc com
75] 5 Harpies
200] 6 Cold One Knights inc mus and champ
115] Cold One Chariot
115] Cold One Chariot
180] Hydra
70] Reaper
------
2196
So I could take it as is if I dropped the cold ones. It does comfirm my feeling that you don't have quite so much on the table anymore somewhat, which is as it should be what with the improving of their prowess. Although that's a weird army. No magic, not sure what my plans were there!
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I actually get to face Dark Elves again tomorrow... possibly as Beastmen. 2500pts. Could be a tough game. I expect lots of fast stuff everywhere and being blasted by Warlock magic. Also toying with taking Empire. But it's been so long since I used the Beast chaps... I dunno...
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I'm having a five player triumph and treachery that includes a dark elf monster/couldron army taking some beastmen mercs. Historically he's never been a fan of much magic, but thats usually because he tries something compleatly different every round. I know he's excited to use some of the new stuff.
That said with 5 people in game I'm not worried to much about taking him 1 on 1. I'll just mop up the pieces.
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I do badly want to try out T&T sometime... looks like a lot of fun!
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Ya we're looking forward to trying it out to. We've played multy player games for years but it will be interesting to try these rules out.
Plus even our normal games half the group acts like chickens with their heads cut off. So now you throw in tricks and treachery and it's going to be hilarious.
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Ok got back from a tournament and made first place with Empire, and the Dark Elf players both got their asses handed to them. (one by me....immensly so)
But I thought they were playing rather tame lists and not the multiple small units approach I would go with them.
Regarding special characters....I think Malkeith is now a really good choice to run with a unit of Cold One Riders. Starting with a power of darkness with one dice succeeding on a 3+ each turn making the riders and the mounts S5 and add +d3 power dice...not bad soul stealer also wouldnīt be half bad for him adding in some extra wounds. Blade Wind and arnzipals black horror as damage dealers. Not bad at all.
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Interesting. Good work on the Empire win!
In more bad news for the Druchii, I played them using my beastmen the other day and got a pretty convincing win on them. Lists:
Beastlord in 24 Bestigors
L4 Beasts Shaman and BSB in 50 Gors
3 L1 Shadow Shamans in 30 Ungors behind herdstone
3 Tuskgor Chariots
2 x 6 Raiders
3 Razorgors
Malus Darkblade in 6 CoKnights
5 Heroes with GW in a self contained unit!
BSB in 18 Executioners
2 x 5 Dark Riders
30 Corsairs
2 x Reapers
2 x 5 Warlocks
(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1536492_10152158674601133_683372068_n.jpg)
I forgot that Beasts do some things very well. Eg, even with as many units as he had, I didn't have to place my big units will his whole army was deployed, which meant I could push it all to one side and avoid his cold ones and Execs. He swamped my Gors with his Master unit, shades and Warlocks but not before I had transformed my Shaman into a Black Hydra! The combat was brutal, but the flame breath of the hydra and tonnes of attacks from the Gors won it for me and that entire flank crumbled away. His corsairs managed to get in with my Bestigors but I was able to miasma him down to WS1 and win that combat too. We realised after that he would have a tough time getting back into the game as I could just hold his tough stuff in place with miasma so he re-wracked and played the Lizard player.
What it reminded me was that Beasts are actually quite decent if you can dominate the magic phase and don't get shot off before you reach your opponent. Also, Gor Horde... yummy!
In his second game, he split his heroes into his various fast cav units to spread the love and give them all a bit of a boost.
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1536493_10152158697121133_1826101299_n.jpg)
But they played meeting engagement and he was unable to get around behind the Lizards who just ground his infantry to death whilst the carnosaur ate Malus. Tough day for the elves! But it was kinda an experimental list.
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Why no lvl 4....why no Masters on Pegasus...those guys are INSANENLY underpriced.
1+ save, ws 6 3 attacks at S 6 re rolling to hit and to wound on 1 and another 2 on S5 and a stomp at S5 3 W T 4 flying for....
138 points....I had to calculate it twice to be sure.
Two of them in every army....MANDATORY! for a good build.
toss the dawnstone in and the firebane gem and you are up to 168 re rolling armour saves of 1 and being immune to flaming attacks.
other guy could get the twilight cloak, bsb 213 points.
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Friendly game so he wasn't really going for an all out tourney list.
Plus he likes 6 dicing the warlock spells so he doesn't really have much of a roll for the L4.
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I see lots of dark elves going for the warlocks and no mage but I think they really miss the opportunity to have access to all 8 spells of the brb.
Monster Mash, Beastmaster, 2 Hydras, 2 Kharybdis, with Lore of Life..---> sick
I just wonder why so many Dark Elf players seem to have problems with the new book....they got soooooo much candy.
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As I am avoiding the warlocks I am definitely enjoying the ability to take other lores on my level 4. Still unsure about life but I can see it's use with monsters. Honestly we had it good even with the lores we used to have. Will probably use heavens a lot because it's always been a favorite off mine.
I wonder of there are just problems because we are still in an experimental phase. Lots of fun options to try out ...
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Do the dark elves have the ability to get loremaster in any of the brb lores? I've heard some talk about it but nothing substantial.
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Regular characters no. Not 100% sure on the special characters as I never use them. Morathi gets some nice bonuses casting dark magic but I don't think she is loremaster. Malekith could be but again, not sure.
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No loremaster, not even for special characters. Morathi can pick up her 4 spells among Dark, Shadows or Death, with 1+1D3 to cast Dark. Don't even try to imagine the potential for Death sig at Ld10 flying a pegasus. But she remains vulnerable as usual to cannonballs.
The closest to Loremaster is the Tome of Furion that allows to choose one single spell before rolling randomly the others. But that's for Dark Lore only.
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I like the tome on a low level caster to get the ld spell in an army set up to use leadership as a weapon.
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I think I was hearing about Morathi's ability than. I remember the tome from the previous additions although it seems to have changed a bit I think.
The dark elf Ld bomb army is killer. I watched it rip apart a rather tough dwarf army with some good tactics and luck.
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The nice thing about it is that you dont have to make too many concessions to run the ld army. A lot of the stuff is already good and you can switch out the spells if against an immune army.
Just finished putting together my kharibdryss and it is an amazing bit of kit. Almost no mold lines, complex joins that just for perfectly. Comparing it to any other kit be it metal or plastic it is so much of an advance. Compared to the metal hydra I have... Well...
Got it for Christmas along with a scourgerunner chariot which is next on my list of assembly. Assuming it is anything like the big guy I will be very happy!
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The new models look very nice, I bought a box of warlocks and they are very nice, very detailed but not over the top, you get also a lot of bitz for your army (12 additional heads, spears, banner, shields...)
I understood that you could also get 2 chariots out of the new box with minimum scratchbuild which make it a good buy I believe.
I believe my next purchase will be the Khari and may be a box of 30 spears/hallberds from gamezone, they look very nice as black guards.
Porkix
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I wonder if you could align the Dark Elder Incubi as Executioners
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1420073a_99110112059_DEIncubi1_445x319.jpg)
Models are ace!
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The new models look very nice, I bought a box of warlocks and they are very nice, very detailed but not over the top, you get also a lot of bitz for your army (12 additional heads, spears, banner, shields...)
I understood that you could also get 2 chariots out of the new box with minimum scratchbuild which make it a good buy I believe.
I believe my next purchase will be the Khari and may be a box of 30 spears/hallberds from gamezone, they look very nice as black guards.
Porkix
I reckon you could get 2 chariots out of it but you would need to find wheels and a yoke so not as easy as one might think maybe. On thr plus side, it comes with 2 sets of crew and the mounts come kinda saddled so I will definitely be using my cold ones as character mounts thati really needed, bonus!
Also, as the kharib technically doesn't have handlers I am not gonna put them on which gives me more spares!
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Thanks Sib,
I do like the kit even if I am not a big fan of the central wheel concept. I didnt get the cold one riders and chariot mostly because I have the older version with the older design for the cold-one and mizing up wont look very good.
Porkix
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Thanks Sib,
I do like the kit even if I am not a big fan of the central wheel concept. I didnt get the cold one riders and chariot mostly because I have the older version with the older design for the cold-one and mizing up wont look very good.
Porkix
Easy....play two units of them.
:biggriin:
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Thanks Sib,
I do like the kit even if I am not a big fan of the central wheel concept. I didnt get the cold one riders and chariot mostly because I have the older version with the older design for the cold-one and mizing up wont look very good.
Porkix
Having now put together the set. I have come to accept the wheel. At first I hated the idea, but you really do have to remind yourself it is fantasy. I felt the same about the flying high elf chariots, but regardless of silliness, they do look pretty cool. The dark elf steeds are actually really nice looking and if I ever got another one to make into a 3rd cold one chariot (probably not going to happen!) I would totally use those steeds for characters/peg conversions.
I too find the mix between old and new cold ones jarring and so a while back I switched all mine out for the new ones (though with the old riders cos they are still super cool!). The great thing now is with these 2 new cold ones and a bunch of unmade new knights I can make a couple of really nice looking characters which I badly needed for the unit.
Also, as I am going with the beast version of the chariot, I have a couple of beefy looking foot knights which can also make for characters. Maybe I can finally make myself a BSB!
All in all, loving the new sets. Probably going to try and pick me up one more box, witch elves. With that, I can not only beef my unit up to 30, but with the spare parts can switch out Morathi's head so I can start running a second Pegasus and arm up my sisters of slaughter (dark eldar wyches) with some shields and whips... Just gotta see if I can find somewhere that I can but them for maybe $50 instead of 60. Don't often buy full price GW kits and it's a bit intimidating!
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Just tried writing up my monster/speed list and it's pretty cool, though kinda short on magic/characters/war machines. But hey, you can't have everything in life! It's 2500pts.
L] High Beastmaster on Manticore (both upgrades): Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield, Black Dragon Egg, Spear, L.A, S.D.C
H] L2 Sorceress on Pegasus: Twilight Cloak
H] Master BSB on Pegasus: Armour of Destiny, S.D.C, H.A, Sh, Lance
C] 5 Dark Riders inc mus + standard: RXB, Sh
C] 5 Dark Riders inc mus + standard: RXB, Sh
C] 5 Dark Riders inc mus: RXB, Sh
C] 20 Darkshards inc mus + standard: Sh, Flaming Banner
S] 10 Cold One Knights inc full command: Banner of Swiftness
S] Cold One Chariot
S] Cold One Chariot
S] Scourgerunner Chariot
S] Hydra: Firey Breath
R] Kharibdyss
Pretty tiny army, but it does include a bunch of cav, 3 thunderstomp monsters, 2 pegs and 3 chariots. If I had the dark riders I would fill the core with those, though the 20 Xbows does at least give me a viable choice to put in a watchtower if that comes up, plus they can mess up regen stuff. Enough standards for Blood and Glory too so I think it can compete on some level in any game. One level 2 scares me but I ran out of room for a second.
The Beastmaster is tooled up to seriously hurt on the charge. He has the egg to crack open if and when he gets into a tough unit, plus 6-8 Killing Blow attacks from the manticore + thunderstomp. Quite a first round they could have if they survive that long! I wouldn't throw them into anything that could beat the manticore's I5 but that still leaves a lot of tasty potentials...
Not sure on the lore on the sorceress, maybe shadow to throw miasma where I need to sway a combat + whatever bonus spell I get. Maybe death to threaten problematic characters... not sure yet.
Course to get this up and going I still need to paint my kharibdyss, scourgerunner, the peg sorceress and 5 dark riders, so it might be a little while before it gets tested...
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Played lizards again today with a mostly infantry army.
Conclusions:
Witch elves are silly in combat if unscathed when they get there. Used 30 in horde with witch brew bsb. That's 4 attacks each on the front row!
Assassins are still a bit sad. Badly wanted to use one. He did ok. But somehow having to pay for killing blow seems wrong. He should just come with that. He did ok, but not much more exciting than a normal hero really.
Beastlord Manticore pretty decent. Good innitiative and a bunch of attacks. I liked the versatility of such a heavy hitter but not at the cost of a dragon. Cannons will make him sad, but they make everyone cry!
Hydra impressed me. Not super duper any more, but it is worth its points I reckon. And it has the potential to hang around far longer than it should if you get lucky.
Black Guard are ok but I don't expect to use them often.
My trawl through all the units is going well. I ran my dark riders in a 10 with no xbows as a kinda medium cav but the experiment never really got going cos they failed a terror check from the carnosaur and he ran them over! Carnosaurs are scary!!
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Try the assasin with additional hand weapon and potion of strength....should make that one combat phase worth while when he jumps out and kills four guys.
hitting on 3+ with re rolls
wounding on 2+ with re rolls
Not that expensive and the enemy doesnīt know where he is at.
But you are right that a regular hero is much better.
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I love them in theory... But Yeh they usually jump out and die! I always forget the potion of strength as an option. Think i gave him a 4+ ward this time to keep him alive but he never got hit anyways...
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did you say DE players are moaning about the DE book siby?
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I faced a infantry heavy DE force with my WOC on Monday. 3000pts.
I had to include my 40 man marauder bus to make up the points so wans't the strongest list i could take.
He had:
Morathi
level 4 on foot
Master on peg with CoT
Cauldron with hag BSB
21 WE
30 Executioners
50 Dark swords
2 x 5 DR
2 chariots
5 shades
I lost narrowly in turn 5. He Amber speared my chimera on turn one. Dead, with the bigger version! BSB legged it on his disc off board.
I really didn't have anything to whittle them down before combat. They kick out so much hurt in CC. Moarthi alone is 8-10 S10 no save attacks per turn with rerolls.
TBH all the rerolls really gave me the hump. They just re-roll everything which takes all the randomness out of the game.
Against my WOC they are great, against a shooty army i can see them being shit. I could of easily tabled them with a semi competent empire force. I understand that the DE force wasn't anything like optimal.
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How does Morathi deal out so much damage?
Was it maybe Hellebronn?
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did you say DE players are moaning about the DE book siby?
I dunno. I don't remember saying it but that doesn't mean I didn't!
Including me we have 3 dark elf players locally and they all love it. I would not be surprised if people complained though. People always do when a new book hits. They only see the stuff that went bad and that seems to overide that there is plenty of good.
I do think that most people are going to struggle if they can't remove some of the threats before they reach. Though in fairness that's going to apply to high elves, chaos, demons, all the strong combat armies.
As a dark elf general now, what I fear is people who can whittle me down. Empire, Orcs, Elves. Cannon off my monsters and half the size of my combat blocks and my threat is so much less. An empire army that castles in the corner would probably blast me off the table! I know people are down on it, but BS shooting is actually kinda a threat to elves! A bunch of fireballesque magic is also good because you can cripple the dark riders and shades etc.
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How does Morathi deal out so much damage?
Was it maybe Hellebronn?
It was hellebronn. My daemon prince killed her in a challenge as she is paper tough but uber killy. She just mashes the rnf
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I got rid of her with dwellers below in a tourney....how did your Demon prince survive her S10 attacks?
Nurgle and another -1 to hit?
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Only got 8 attacks, Hitting on 4+ with no re roll. So only 4 hits, made 2 ward saves. I had sword of striking so hit 5 times, 2's to wound, fail an average amount of ward saves. Risky, but not really. I recovered the two wound with my soul hunger as well, which was lucky.
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He shouldnīt have gone into a challenge if you sent her back no problem she lives otherwise loads of attacks that shred the demonprince even after a turn or two...all the re rolling is insane.
I consider Dark Elves the better army compared to High Elves...the shooting is even stronger and their cc is a notch better. Fighty Heroes and Lords better, Magic pretty much the same.
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No re rolls to hit and 4+
Daemon prince is higher I and WS.
Re roll to wound though.
As long as you make one out of an average 4 wounds your safe and you should splat her in one turn.
Anyway, i needed to find a was to break up the attack. I only bought 4 trolls not 6 which would of given me a better tar pit. Losing bsb and chimera before having a go was a bit shit.
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Avatar of war is working on some witch elfs, if they are as cheap his dwarf bezerkers i might be forced to buy a box.
http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=982 (http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=982)
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Hey guys, I was thinking about starting a dark elf army...
I got a dragon cheap, and I have an extra sorceress... Should I get some kind of a mount or convert her?
Anyways, I'd like to make a list with black guard, some cold one knights and a RBT. Kharibdyss also looks fun.
I like most of the models, but I'd like to avoid executioners, dark riders sisters of slaughter.
Would this be possible?
I don't know much about Dark elves and I'm not looking for a tournament level list.
I just need something fun and competent.
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Everything is possible...but you avoid the strongest choices in the book.
A fast hitting army with Dragon Lord can be viable too you canīt do much wrong with the new dark elf book almost all choices except the fleetmaster are above average compared to other books.
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I've used most stuff in the new book. I too have avoided executioners. If you don't want to use dark riders perhaps consider a unit or 2 of harpies. They have slipped down in the pecking order now but they could play a valuable roll that the dark riders normally fill.
But as Fandir says, you can't to too far wrong. Now that they have asf like the high elves they compete in a similar way. You don't need huge units because you can pack a punch before you get hit back.
Maybe put that sorceress on a Pegasus. Very mobile and hard to track down to kill.
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Played against the new book for the first time a couple of days ago with my Skaven. We were aiming for reasonably "friendly-ish" lists (meaning good, but not optimized), at 1500 points.
I had: Grey Seer with earthing rod, naked BSB, 24 Clanrat bunker, 49 Slaves, 39 Stormvermin, 2 Warpfire Throwers, a Warlock with Doomrocket, a PP with flail, Doomwheel, 2 Rat Ogres with 1 handler and one Warplightning cannon.
he had: Lvl 4 Sorceress, Pegaus Hero, 2 units of Dark Riders, a unit of 10 or so Shades with another hero, a unit of 20 (I think) Corsairs, 15 Executioners and 10 or 15 Sisters of Slaughter.
It ended as a massacre win for me. By conventional 8th edition scoring I lost 178 points (the cannon and the ogres), while he had about that much left, and I also got the general and a banner (if units at half strength still gave points it would have looked a lot less one sided). It could have gone either way for the first couple of turns, but my Stormvermin narrowly won the epic clash in the middle against the Executioners and Sisters, with about 10 models left in the unit (Death Frenzy for the win!), and things went downhill in a hurry for him after that. He conceded after everything but 2 shades and the hero of that unit were dead.
It was a fun game for both sides. I like the new DE book. Seems quite strong with a lot of good options.
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Thanks for the info guys. :D
This is what I have in mind at the moment:
LORDS:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dreadlord
Black dragon, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak,
Cloak of midnight, Ogre blade, Charmed shield, Luckstone. 554pts
HEROES:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Level 2, dispel scroll, life. 140pts
CORE:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
14 witch elves, sb. 164pts
14 witch elves, sb. 164pts
12 Darkshards, sb, flaming banner 164pts
12 Darkshards. 144pts
SPECIAL:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
6 Cold one knights, sb. 190pts
2 Repeater bolt throwers. 140pts
6 Harpies. 90pts
6 Harpies. 90pts
RARE:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Kharibdyss. 160pts
So now.. How to proceed?
I'm not totally sure about the witch elves. Should I keep them in small units or join them in one big unit?
Is 6 a proper size for a unit of harpies and CoK?
I need a proper core unit and some special slot unit like black guard.
Would 24 be a proper size for those guys?
Should I also throw in a BSB?
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I would follow Sibys advice heroes no matter if masters or sorcs profit immensly from a pegasus you get +1 W and +1 T on top of havinga 20 inch march move.
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I like it so far. You can get away with say 21 black guard in a 3x7. They will be vulnerable to missile fire but that is elves nowadays. More expensive but if you get them in, really nice.
I run 6 cold one knights all the time and I love them. Can take some fire but for such a small unit they are very versatile.
Those harpies are mostly gonna be sacrificial or hunters. That's something you just have to accept. But 6 sounds good. If you need the points elsewhere you can always drop the 6th.
The witches, well it depends how comfortable you are with msu. I have used small units and they do pretty well but I did take 30 in horde the other day and they just obliterated in combat. Think I had the death hag with super frenzy in there too so they had 4 atks each!
I love corsairs in core. 4+ save and 2 atks is not to be sniffed at. Or if you stick with the msu you can run them small with handbows but honestly I am not sure its worth it. A big unit of corsairs is quite durable for elves and with the right magic buffs any of your infantry will prove formidable.
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I would follow Sibys advice heroes no matter if masters or sorcs profit immensly from a pegasus you get +1 W and +1 T on top of havinga 20 inch march move.
Yes, I'll do that... I have an extra sorceress (from the dragon kit) who is anxiously awaiting her new mount. :D
Those harpies are mostly gonna be sacrificial or hunters. That's something you just have to accept. But 6 sounds good. If you need the points elsewhere you can always drop the 6th.
I love corsairs in core. 4+ save and 2 atks is not to be sniffed at.
I was expecting that from harpies. Is there any benefit in keeping 6 or should I just switch to 5? Any kind of shooting will massacre them on the spot, so I really see no point in taking 6. Or does keeping 6 mean anything in close combat?
Yes, I was kind of hoping to get a unit of corsairs.
They look nice and perform really good. 4+ save can make a difference, knowing what it does for greatswords.
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Ai, corsairs don't do anything to exciting, but they are the reliable part of an otherwise flashy army!
I used to take 6 harpies sometimes. But they were cheap too. I can't see it making a huge difference in combat. Say you hit a warmachine, I think it would only mean 1 extra attack however you line up so probably may aswell stick to 5. The one nice thing about harpies is the skirmish will make them ever so slightly less susceptible to BS shooting. If one drops you should still be able to make it into the warmachines the next turn. If 2 go, well I guess you just have to hope you flee past your general :-P
I do have the dragon but haven't used him in the new book yet. Should be fun. I enjoyed the manticore the other day.
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LORDS: (554pts)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dreadlord
Black dragon, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak,
Cloak of twilight, Ogre blade, Charmed shield, Luckstone. 554pts
HEROES: (417pts)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Sorceress
Level 2, dispel scroll, life, dark pegasus. 190pts
Khanite assasin
Additional hand weapon, Dark venom (KB). 112pts
Death hag
Witchbrew. 115pts
CORE: (637pts)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
29 witch elves, sb. 329pts
12 Darkshards, sb, Banner of Eternal Flame 164pts
12 Darkshards. 144pts
SPECIAL: (710pts)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
21 Black guard, st. 325pts
6 Cold one knights, sb. 190pts
2 Repeater bolt throwers. 140pts
5 Harpies. 75pts
RARE: (160pts)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Kharibdyss. 160pts
________________________________
TOTAL: (2498pts)
I might throw out the assassin in favor of a BSB, but I'll try to proxy this list first because it looks fun. :D
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I really like that list. I would totally run. Probably would agree about the BSB, though if you can find 25pts from somewhere else you could always throw it on the death hag. Think that's what I did. Bit risky as she is quite out there and vulnerable... but a good place to have it otherwise.
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The only option I see is throwing out one CoK.
That way I could give her a standard and a magic weapon worth 5 points (would be useful in case I run into ethereals).
Actually...
I could throw out 2 darkshards from one unit. But then I wouldn't be able to get her a magic weapon...
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Also would that hurt your core %?
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Yes, so that option is out, too.
Well, then it's 5 cold one knights.
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why don't you like dark riders wolfy? they are cool!
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why don't you like dark riders wolfy? they are cool!
Well they are, but I just like the other choices more.
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I think it's kinda cool to go for no dark riders. They are kinda my crutch in many ways. Not sure I have played a new book game without at least one unit yet! So many things they can do. I think I drive people crazy with them. Usually they get shot down to one or two but even then they are incredibly annoying just getting in the way of things, taking out easy targets etc.
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dark riders are the 2nd reasno I got into DE, behind the awesome CoK models. DR are cool and useful!
but SW- if you don't like them that's cool obviously.
list looks fun and somewhat similar to what I mght run, except obviously I'd add DR too, and would use corsair instead of witchelves as i dislike the coincept, the models and the price, and i wouldnt use a dragon.
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I've heard a lot of complaints that Witch elves "demand" a Cauldron... But why?
Sure, that Cauldron's 6" re-roll to wound is a nice effect, but is it really necessary unless you're fielding a lot of infantry blocks?
Isn't a Death Hag with Witchbrew enough? You can always throw in more witch Elves for the price of Cauldron...
And not to mention that it's also a huge fire magnet. Which when I think about it, that could actually be a bonus if you're fielding a lot of pegasus masters... Not so sure about dragons, though. They would be a primary target for anybody.
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Avatars of War have released Vestals of Nemesis.[/quote]
Might be a good substitute for witch elves. (http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&prodcode=pl10-pr&prodname=Vestals+of+Nemesis+and+exclusive+Concubine+of+Nemesis+miniature&mediumcast=plastic&id=118&Itemid=115)
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double the models for less than half the price, and basically the same quality
yes, they might be a good substitute.
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The quality looks quite a bit worse than the GW version in those close-ups (especially the faces), but the poses are nicely dynamic, and the price is hard to argue with. If I played DE I'd probably get the GW minis for the front rank and the AOW version to fill up the unit. They should look good together.
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I've heard a lot of complaints that Witch elves "demand" a Cauldron... But why?
Sure, that Cauldron's 6" re-roll to wound is a nice effect, but is it really necessary unless you're fielding a lot of infantry blocks?
Isn't a Death Hag with Witchbrew enough? You can always throw in more witch Elves for the price of Cauldron...
And not to mention that it's also a huge fire magnet. Which when I think about it, that could actually be a bonus if you're fielding a lot of pegasus masters... Not so sure about dragons, though. They would be a primary target for anybody.
I suppose if one wants to maximise the attacks it is good, plus you do get the little ward save for the witches.
But I don't think you need it. They will chop stuff up very nicely without one! I'd almost rather put the points into some more magic to buff them/hex the enemy.
Having said that, I haven't tried the cauldron with the new rules. Maybe it's amazing!
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There are good reasons to take a cauldron (aka COB).
It gives WE 5++, and 4++ against magic. That alone is outstanding.
It gives 4++ to the DH, and 3++ against magic.
It takes room for 15 WE, in the centre of the unit. Handy when facing mortars (not the present trend, but it could come back if elves of all kinds transformed the meta) or other large template spells.
It has a bound spell, which can very handily help execs or COK.
It is a point denial, as you get VP only if you kill DH and COB.
It denies stomp against the whole unit (because the combined unit is no longer infantry).
In case of several large units available, you select which one you boost.
But, as mentioned, it is a cannonball magnet despite its own 4++ - note that losing it is not losing the battle.
For that reason alone, it is worth taking only if you can saturate targets (dragon, shrine, other COB, hydra, K-beast...).
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ARe you sure about that stomp denying?
This would mean that including a guy on a horse for an infantry unit would deny stomps against them.
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ARe you sure about that stomp denying?
This would mean that including a guy on a horse for an infantry unit would deny stomps against them.
Dodgy. I don't see it that way. It's still an infantry unit, with an attached chariot. So no way stomps are denied.
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I agree that you canīt stomp the Cauldron but there is nothing in the book preventing the Infantry to be stomped.
Someone call Fidelis he might now some wonky errata or something.
Thing is sure that I wonīt play it that way.
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But does that also mean that the Death Hag must accept a challenge when she is challenged?
She's got nowhere to run in a chariot...
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Probably, yes. A Skaven can run up to the tip of the Bell if he's challenged to avoid it, but that is specifically mentioned in those rules. I assume the Cauldron rules specify it always has to be front and center in the unit, yes? If so, she is indeed doomed to accept, unless someone else steps up to the plate. You can only avoid challenges if you can physically avoid them by going out of BTB.
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I agree that you canīt stomp the Cauldron but there is nothing in the book preventing the Infantry to be stomped.
Someone call Fidelis he might now some wonky errata or something.
Thing is sure that I wonīt play it that way.
One can draw a parallel with the (old) Lizardmen FAQ:
Lizardmen Official Update Version 1.5 p. 4:
Q: Can you Stomp or Thunderstomp a unit of Skinks that contains Kroxigor? (p94)
A: No, a mixed unit has the troop type of Unique.
However, that was for the 7th Army Book, where 8th BRB Troop Type system did not exist. I would suppose that the new Dark Elves AB takes the new Troop Type system into account. Therefore, if the wording in the Dark Elves Army Book actually says that the Troop Type of the unit as a whole changes to e.g. unique then the Stomp would not work. If it just says that the Cauldron can join a unit without any specification that the Troop Type of the unit as a whole would change, then the Stomp should work.
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I had heard the no stomps thing. When I use it I will probably just let my opponent decide what seems reasonable.
Either way I still don't think you can't run witch elves without it. I think it is another route to go.
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Therefore, if the wording in the Dark Elves Army Book actually says that the Troop Type of the unit as a whole changes to e.g. unique then the Stomp would not work. If it just says that the Cauldron can join a unit without any specification that the Troop Type of the unit as a whole would change, then the Stomp should work.
It just says that the COB can join a unit with no specification about troop type.
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I agree that you canīt stomp the Cauldron but there is nothing in the book preventing the Infantry to be stomped.
Someone call Fidelis he might now some wonky errata or something.
Thing is sure that I wonīt play it that way.
One can draw a parallel with the (old) Lizardmen FAQ:
Lizardmen Official Update Version 1.5 p. 4:
Q: Can you Stomp or Thunderstomp a unit of Skinks that contains Kroxigor? (p94)
A: No, a mixed unit has the troop type of Unique.
However, that was for the 7th Army Book, where 8th BRB Troop Type system did not exist. I would suppose that the new Dark Elves AB takes the new Troop Type system into account. Therefore, if the wording in the Dark Elves Army Book actually says that the Troop Type of the unit as a whole changes to e.g. unique then the Stomp would not work. If it just says that the Cauldron can join a unit without any specification that the Troop Type of the unit as a whole would change, then the Stomp should work.
I just realized something which could kill the argument about stomping immunity:
RAW BRB p.99, combined units "are treated as a single combined unit for all rules purposes, save for the exceptions listed below (...) Close combat: enemy models in base contact with both the character and one or more models from the character's unit can choose..."
Conclusion: in close combat, there is no such thing as a combined unit (it is listed among the exceptions), and therefore the stomping player can stomp infantry models, if the model is in contact with infantry.
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You describe the second part of what I said in my post. :icon_wink:
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You describe the second part of what I said in my post. :icon_wink:
I don't merely describe it.
I prove it. :::cheers:::BRB p.99, combined units "are treated as a single combined unit for all rules purposes, save for the exceptions listed below (...) Close combat: enemy models in base contact with both the character and one or more models from the character's unit can choose..."
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So yesterday for a bit of fun I took this in a 2500pt game.
45 spears
30 corsairs
30 witch elves
20 executioners
I had characters sprinkled in and a few chaff units too but I got mullered by the lizard army. It confirmed my feeling that balanced works best for dark elves. I can get away with those kind of hordes with beasts because of better magic and chaff to support but a tonne of strength 3 elf infantry lacks versatility.
Looking forward to trying out 10 cold one knights and my kharibdyss though...
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So time for a very mini batrep. Yesterday I played my brother's lizards (don't often play him). I took another slightly unusual army as I am still testing stuff out. Though I felt way better about it than the silly infantry list.
L4 Life Sorceress on dark steed: scroll of shielding, 4+ ward
L2 Heavens Sorceress: channel staff, opal amulet
Master BSB on Manticore: Cloak of Twilight, Lance, 1+ save
3 units of Dark Riders with xbows
13 Darkshards
9 Cold One Knights with gleaming pennant
5 naked Shades
Hydra with flame breath
2 Reapers
He had:
Slaan with wandering deliberations
Scar Vet BSB on cold one
Skink priest l2
40 Saurus Warriors
10 Skink Skirmishers
30ish Temple Guard
Ancient Stegadon
8-10 Chameleons
Here is how we deployed:
(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t1/1897699_10152259785181133_636636581_n.jpg)
It was really weird cos I stuck all my guys on each flank whilst leaving my reapers in the middle by themselves. He meanwhile bunkered up in the middle with only his skinks out wide.
The game started really badly for me, his Slaan cast a boosted Shems on my Hydra and managed to wipe it off the board with 5 wounds getting through! That flank had crumbled, my Xbows jumping first into the house and then out of it when his Temple Guard threatened it.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1780707_10152259961281133_1482648679_n.jpg)
He turned back to the rest of my army once I had left the house and so I jumped back in. My xbows and sorceress L2 hid in there the entire rest of the game, pretty much untouched. His skinks on that side were sadly able to deal with my dark riders and went on to kill one of my reapers, which he kept out of the game by blasting/miasmaing.
My manticore hero flew up the flank and in an attempt to stave off a joint steg/saurus attack on my cold ones, engaged the steg. This proved disastourous though as my master whiffed with his D3 wounds and then gradually got skewered by the steg who was getting lifebloomed whilst killing the manticore.
In a desperate attempt to salvage something from the game, I threw my cold ones into a headlong charge on his saurus block.
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1962717_10152260268741133_130289497_n.jpg)
As you can maybe see, the temple guard are already lining up for a charge, though I managed to delay this with a lone dark rider. I went in with flesh to stone and shield of thorns, still expecting to be halted and then swarmed. But the knights in a display which still amazes me, decimated the saurus, killing maybe 15 or more the first round, with a little help from more dark riders who hit the rear. The saurus missed a lot of attacks and my T5 helped soak up those that got through and I won the round convincingly. Sadness ensued though as he was 2 models above losing steadfast. He passed his break test easily and the Temple Guard slammed into my flank.
Again I thought game over, but through a combination of handy life magic (regrew 3 cold ones) and my sorceress holding up the scar vet in a challenge (yes I did that!) I held in the combat for a few rounds whilst whittling down the saurus. In the end I killed that whole huge block, but it took it's tole on my cold ones and they fled in turn 6. Thankfully not all the way to the board edge so they survived the game, without the sorceress alas (She eventually died to the scar vet!).
I had lost the battle fairly convincingly (the Temple Guard Slaan bunker was over 1000pts of his army), but taking out the saurus (oh and the stegadon who charged into the cold one knights but was instantly dragged down by the shield of thorns before attacking!!) it was respectable.
Overall, a really enjoyable battle. I always felt it was uphill but my cold ones were heroic in their refusal to succumb to overwhleming odds. I always love taking them as a 6 as they hold up well, but the 10 man unit dished out so much more pain than I thought possible. Definitely will use them again. Life seemed like a good choice for the cold ones, though I did miss having more aggressive augments, rather than defensive ones. I dunno.
Wandering Deliberations is really scary. It feels like every time you dispel something, you get a slightly different version of it thrown at you. And there is an answer to everything in there. Plus when he gets towards the end of the phase he can 1 dice a few of them, knowing you are out of dice. Really good option for the lizards. I think he was unlucky and I played it canny in his magic phases because he should have had more magic in that combat.
Manticore hero? Probably not worth it. Either go all in on the Lord or run the master on the pegausus. Or stop running it into monsters like I have been lately and go stomp on some infantry!
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I'm about to test drive my new scourgerunner...