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Galactic Conflict & Historical Games ... => Historical Games => Topic started by: GamesPoet on March 07, 2016, 11:46:51 AM
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For those unaware ... the historical game system called Lion Rampant has not only expanded into fantasy with the rules called Dragon Rampant, but there is also an effort underway to add an additional set of rules based on the same system, and currently being called Pikeman's Lament.
The latter seemes to be based more in the 17th century, the era of the English Civil War and the Thirty Years War, and then into the end of the 1600s when the shift towards infantry carrying only guns and eventually giving up the pike began. The 15th and 16th century is more closely associated to Warhmmer-Empire, yet I'm looking forward to seeing how Pikeman's Lament handles things anyway.
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Picked up a copy of Lion Rampant at Cold Wars and bought it. Couldn't locate Dragon Rampant or I'd have bought that, too. A quick review of the contents seems to show that it is a system needing relatively few figures per side to get started, and players can increase the size of their armies as they acquire more. I'm looking forward to giving it a whirl at some point.
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My exploration of Lion Rampant has begun. Played in a game this past December, and expect to play some more, maybe even this upcoming weekend. There are a group of guys that have begun to use these rules locally for historical play, and so far what I've seen has been a non complex system of rules, easily learned, and fun to play.
Considering the following make up for my first 24 point army ...
1 mounted men-at-arms unit, 6 points, 6 figures
1 mounted sergeants unit, 4 points, 6 figures, with crossbows
1 foot men-at-arms unit, 6 points, 6 figures
1 foot sergeants unit, 4 points, 12 figures
1 archer unit, 4 points, 12 figures
What I'm also interested in doing is trying the new Pikeman's Lament rules, which has just been released, and it is based on the same system as Lion Rampant and Dragon Rampant.
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It looks like a fun system. If I could find some people locally playing it I'd give a try.
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The rules are $18. Buy it, provide a second army for another player, and voila!
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This past May I tied for 1st place in a mini-3 round tourney for Lion Rampant, 2 wins and one draw.
Yesterday I introduced a new guy to these rules, he'd not played a miniatures game before and enjoyed playing. We're talking about getting together for a night of painting medieval figures next.
I've been using a Late English list of 24 points which includes 1 men-at-arms unit, 1 expert foot sergeant unit, and 2 expert archer units. It can be tricky when coming up against armies with cavalry units, but I'm having fun!
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Sounds great! Looks like you know your tactics too lol. I think I've heard of that game but I'll have to look it up. Keep us informed. Fun is the key 😸
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Lion Rampant is the original and Medieval version. They also produce Dragon Rampant for fantasy, and Pikeman's Lament for Renaissance.
It is a quick and easy system with plenty of variability.
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So ... I'm hosting a Lion Rampant mini-tourney at a game convention this year. 3 rounds, prizes to 1st, 2nd, 3rd place, army lists to eb chosen from Lion Rampant rule book only. I'm also gearing up for this event by getting together with a friend for some Lion Rampant games in a couple of weeks. :icon_cool: :icon_biggrin:
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Pictures! Bring us pictures!
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Pictures! Bring us pictures!
Demanded and seconded! (? If that’s a word)
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Ha, ha! Maybe. I've got a small camera somewhere. If I can find it, maybe.
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GP If you edit your first post, maybe you could do an intro to the game too.
I am sure people would like to know the potential usage for existing Empire/human figures, and size of warbands for example?
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GP If you edit your first post, maybe you could do an intro to the game too.
I am sure people would like to know the potential usage for existing Empire/human figures, and size of warbands for example?
Good ‘un! I know you described it on another thread but again would be good.
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I have Lion Rampant which I've played maybe a dozen times, and Pikeman's Lament, yet no games with the latter. Intending to pick up Dragon Rampant at some point for some fantasy gaming. Going to need to see what kind of gaming gets done in the next couple of months, and then perhaps I'll write up some more on this system.
The good thing about this system is it is very quick to play through and doesn't require a lot of figures. I've spent minimal games learning the system, and once it gets going on the table top, these games can take 2 to 3 hours to play and it's done. A rules book costs ... get this :icon_arrow: ... $18. An excellent value.
My Wars of the Roses army has a leader, 6 men at arms, 12 expert foot sergeants, and two units of 12 expert archers for 43 figures. This represents a late English army for historical purposes, and can be a challenging one to play because of having only 4 units and no cavalry. I've used Perry WotRs figures, and matched them up against another Late English army using my left over Perry figures and a bunch of Empire figures, as well.
And I've matched them up against a German army using the Empire figures too. The German army is an interesting mix of 1 mounted men at arms (6 Empire figures), 1 mounted sergeants with crossbows (my 6 converted Empire figures from Treachery & Greed campaign), 2 units of 12 foot sergeants (Empire Averland spearsmen), and 1 unit of 12 crossbows with pavises (my Averland & mercenary crossbows), and a leader figure, for a total of 49 figures.
There are 34 historical army lists, plus a Robin Hood, Sheriff, Round Table, Mordred, and a Good and Evil fantasy lists as well. I'm looking forward to the Dragon Rampant rules for trying some more fantasy lists, and Pikeman's Lament for more historical gaming, and maybe Empire vs. Empire too.
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Thanks GP!
Just bought and downloaded dragon rampant. Now to settle in for a good read. Also may get lion rampant. The cost is just fantastic.
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If I recall, Dragon Rampant has army lists for various fantasy forces. If ya get a moment Artoban, can ya clue us in on which ones?
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Boarderlands
Centaurs
Dwarves
Elves
Goblins
Graveyard dwellers
Grr. All creatures great and small
Halfflings and gnomes
Knights of the shining citadel
Lizard kin
Men of the North
Men of the west
Ratkin
Sand marauders
!!!!
This is looking good!
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Those sound good, and sounds like more fun to be had there! :icon_biggrin: :icon_cool: :::cheers:::
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Ha! Located my original copy of Lion Rampant while searching for a foam cutter today. I've got two copies, and will give one to a nephew! :icon_cool:
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The rules and play look so easy. Also most warbands are 60 models at most and encourages all types of minis. For example the gnomes ride snails and it isn’t unheard of for the sand marauders to ride strange creatures ie: I have a few cold one mounts without riders.
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Yep, it is quick play, and fun with few models.
It is also very adaptable with a point system that moves across any category of army that one desires, and to the point where a person can use whatever models they have to create there list. I haven't seen the Dragon Rampant rules, although the new info is inspiring me a bit.
I'm imagining creating a small campaign of some kind using these rules and figures. At some point.
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In the rules, the author highlights the rules taken directly from lion. Dragon came after and he realized the transition for historical to fantasy can be quite easy. As I read more I’ll add.
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Dragon Rampant will likely be the next set of rules I buy. :::cheers:::
I suspect had the changes in the forum not occurred, it might have been awhile before I got this motivated. Cheers to the admins! :::cheers:::
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Agree!
There seems to be a rejuvenation of sorts. You must include yourself GP for all the cool threads. :eusa_clap:
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Thank you, I bow in your general direction. :icon_cool: :::cheers:::
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Ok, dragon rampant is looking good. Halfway thru rules and thinking of a warband. Pulled out some old ral partha fighters but they are really small. Don’t think they will fit in well. Have a Norse shieldmaiden thst is stamped GW 198 something if anyone is interested plus the fighters. Next round of cash will bring lion rampant into my hands. Getting more excited about historical warbands at the moment.
And the ease of play that the rampant rules bring are too good to pass up for the price.
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Have you looked at the list of historical armies in Lion Rampant?
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Lion Rampant has been on my to get list for awhile now actually. Like GP I think the forum change might push it up the priority for me. It's nice to see a cheap rulebook, makes it far easier to get started.
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Lion Rampant has been on my to get list for awhile now actually. Like GP I think the forum change might push it up the priority for me. It's nice to see a cheap rulebook, makes it far easier to get started.
Model wise you don’t need any particular model manufacture. I see a future for your marauder army.
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Not to mention the legion of various Empire and other human forces!
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Ok, made it thru the dragon rampant rules. Looks very playable and now to make out a warband for each side. May just assemble the two groups and stare at them awhile till the horde of greenskinz dwindle but I’ll let you know what grows out of this.
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I'm hyped.
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I'm on tap for a game of Lion Rampant on 4/22 with a friend of mine as we prepare for the eventual convention mini-tourney.
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I'm on tap for a game of Lion Rampant on 4/22 with a friend of mine as we prepare for the eventual convention mini-tourney.
A hell of a pain in the ass request but could you do a battle report and warband list. Even bullet form minimal. I would love to get a feel for it. Been looking at a number of miniature companies window shopping an army/ warband.
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let me know if you find more good looking Norse/Danish looking models! I'm always on the look out.
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I've had the book for a while now, and also bought 2 copies of Dragon Rampant (one for No1son so maybe he'd raise a band) and also got the Pikeman's Lament.
I bought two sets of mdf tokens for Lion Rampant at Salute yesterday so I am aiming to get some warbands selected for this. From my initial reading the possibilities are quite varied, and so I might even try to concoct a list from some Vikings I have.
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let me know if you find more good looking Norse/Danish looking models! I'm always on the look out.
Are you looking for Viking Era or Medieval Norse/Danish?
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Both really, although a bit more of a focus on Viking Era. I'm a big fan of the Great Heathen Army and Alfred the Greats fight against them, not to mention folks like Ragnar Lothbrok. Although even more medieval stuff like the Varangians and such I can find a use for as well.
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Well give the new northmen figure range from Fire Forge a look, could make for some nice looking northerly 28mm types. And I don't just mean the new fantasy figures they are doing up. If I recall they also have some northern historical figures, but maybe I am confusing manufacturers.
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Looking into getting some Vikings or Anglo saxons from foundry. For 84£ you can get a complete package army of pretty nice figures.
These guys can be mixed with some creatures from ral partha as well to mix lion and dragon rampant games. Don’t need to buy at the moment but planning ahead. Any suggestions for cheap Viking/Saxon look would be good.
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Footsore Miniatures.
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Footsore Miniatures.
Wow!!!👆😺 thanks GP!
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Warlord Games have some interesting looking ones too:
https://store.warlordgames.com/collections/vikings
and they also have Saxons.
Some metal supporting the old Wargames Factory plastic sets
Fireforge in Italy have a tie up to these:
https://fireforge-games.com/vikings-28
and they have Anglo Saxons
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Nice units Mids!👆
Thanks.
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I've been keeping an eye on Fireforge stuff and it's all beautiful. A bit hard for me to get where I am but beautiful none the less. I'm constantly hassling the local store to do an order but no dice so far.
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I think I’m getting a fix on the army. Historically I am really liking the saxons as the models. There are a couple of great suppliers out there for them. I’m pretty sure that’s what I will be doing. All I need now is a worthy historical opponent. I’m not very tuned in on timeline but I can either have European enemy or I can represent a Saxon push into England. Any suggestions as to opponents that are hanging around for a scrap at that time?
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Vikings fought pretty much everywhere.
In Great Britain you could have Late Romans, Saxons, Welsh, and then a bit later add Normans, and then on the advance into France you could have Franks and Germanic tribes.
I read through the book over the Bash weekend and I am going to do a Merry Men and Sheriff's match up - I had forgotten all the suggested warbands in the back of the book.
Saracens and Crusaders is another ................... and they all could easily be used for SAGA / Crescent & The Cross games as well.
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Vikings fought pretty much everywhere.
In Great Britain you could have Late Romans, Saxons, Welsh, and then a bit later add Normans, and then on the advance into France you could have Franks and Germanic tribes.
I read through the book over the Bash weekend and I am going to do a Merry Men and Sheriff's match up - I had forgotten all the suggested warbands in the back of the book.
Saracens and Crusaders is another ................... and they all could easily be used for SAGA / Crescent & The Cross games as well.
Excellent Mids! What an array of units to choose from. I think I’m gonna like delving into this
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Lion Rampant doesn't have lists for Vikings nor Saxons. They were more a dark age presence than medieval era. That doesn't mean one couldn't come up with a list for them.
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Lion Rampant doesn't have lists for Vikings nor Saxons. They were more a dark age presence than medieval era. That doesn't mean one couldn't come up with a list for them.
That’s the beauty of this system I’m finding. With dragon you can find units equivalent of and I think there shouldn’t be too much of a problem. Decided I’m going to order the hardback version of the rules. I have electronic versions of various books and I really prefer the real one.
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Well is there really a hard back? My copy is a soft paper back version and I haven't seen a hardback copy.
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Sorry bout that. You are correct. I knew something was amiss when harback was typed 😺
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Either way, it's always good to actually have the book over the computer copy, although I'm a bit dated. :icon_wink:
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The big problem with transposing a Vikings list is lack of Cavalry.
Saxons and Late Romans have several cavalry figures available.
What I like about Lion Rampant is that there are basically 11 units in total ( and you can tweak them with upgrades ) and the actual weapons don't really matter past missile or melee, but that means you can be pretty casual with "counts as", and although lots of the lists contain cavalry you don't have to take them.
You could do any period - Romans versus Germans - Greeks versus Persians and make viable warbands.
Let your imagination flow .............. :engel:
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This is going to be fun for sure. I think I’ve found the right bunch for a pretty good price and I may buy them with the next well paid contract (which means awhile)
Still thinking of Mids list of antagonists. Lots of colour there.
https://footsoreminiatures.com/apps/iwish
https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/products/sax015-mounted-saxon-characters
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This is going to be fun for sure. I think I’ve found the right bunch for a pretty good price and I may buy them with the next well paid contract (which means awhile)
Still thinking of Mids list of antagonists. Lots of colour there.
https://footsoreminiatures.com/apps/iwish
https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/products/sax015-mounted-saxon-characters
Your link goes to a page for your wish list, but ... there's nothing there! :icon_eek:
I like these early Saxons ... https://footsoreminiatures.com/collections/early-saxons
And these late Saxons are cool as well ... https://footsoreminiatures.com/collections/late-saxons
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Aiming for a game or two of Lion Rampant on Friday evening. Going to bring my usual Late English, but might try out the German list. Hoping to bring my camera for some pictures although the lighting in this guy's basement is less than ideal.
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Must have erased my wish list 😿👆
Those saxons highlighted are the ones. Really nice sculpts and I’ll get some transfers too. Might grab the priest and the other link where some cavalry. These prices are just to good to pass up and there pretty much exactly what I want.
Good luck on your game Friday! Even if pics dont come, maybe a run thru on the game. I’ll be ordering the actual lion rule book when I receive my eBay sales. Time to support the hobby lol.
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Those figures are $5 a piece. However, if you go with one of the army deals or Saga Warband deals the cost per figure is significantly reduces. Then supplement such a purchase with additional figures, if you're looking for more or other figures.
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Yeah - Front rank nice metals - rear ranks cheap plastics.
I am still doing all mine on 20mm square bases so I can go to ranked units as well. It doesn't make a lot of difference not using round bases.
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Just went back and looked at the Footsore early Saxons and noticed the rank and file metal minis are 4 for $10, so that's at $2.50 a piece, and the rest of the leaders, nobles, and cavalry are the $5 figures. So basically a Saga army deal throws in the leaders for free, so not that much of a big deal. And I'd want to have some of the figures that aren't in the Saga army deal anyway.
And yes, 20mm squares are how I've based my Late English units for Lion Rampant, and then I can also use them for other square based systems on sabots if desired.
My Lion Rampant units for a German army are all from my GW Empire figures which are naturally on the 20mm squares.
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Upgraded wish list. Now a member so I think the link will be valid. I’ve sold enough scots Guard, lifeguard, coldstream guards to find this by the end of the month 😸
Yay!
https://footsoreminiatures.com/cart
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Maybe if I become a "member", then I can see it? Might give it a go at some point, when I feel the calling to maybe buy some. However, Footsore shows to Historicon (this year in Lancaster PA) and so maybe if I go, then I'll buy some.
By the way, I have their Skraelings.
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It was very good to have played a Lion Rampant game last night. So glad I played prior to next week's mini tourney.
The lists were from the rule book as usual ... Norman (attacker) vs. German (defender) on a 6' x 4' playing area.
Scenery included a 12"x6" wooded area placed across the center line, maybe 2/3rd towards the defenders area, and on one flank. In the center, more towards the defender's side of the board than the attacker's, was a small round hill, 6"x6". And on the other flank there was a 6"x6" woods resting on the back of the defender's side, and an oval shaped hill 10"x6" mostly on the attacker's side although resting on the center of the playing area.
I placed the mounted crossbows on my left flank, and then left to right ... one unit of foot sergeants, unit of crossbows w/pavises, second unit of foot sergeants, and then the mounted men-at-arms on the right flank beyond the copse of trees at the back.
The Norman player had his bidowers on his right flank, followed by two units of foot sergeants, and then his crossbows, and then his two units of mounted men-at-arms.
First few turns saw the German crossbows take the center hill, and the Norman crossbows take the other hill with everyone's foot sergeants alongside their crossbows. Then I launched my mounted men-arms against the Norman crossbows driving them off the hill, but then being attacked by the Norman cavalry and eliminated. On the other flank, the bidowers got into the woods and the mounted crossbows went around the flank, but weren't effectively used. My center held for a good bit, but was being outflanked by the remaining Norman cavalry, so it was probably just a matter of time. We called the game because it was getting late, yet both of us had a good opportunity for reviewing the rule which was the whole idea anyway.
I'm looking forward to next weekend!
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Awesome!👆
I can get a really good image of the troops storming the hill and getting counter charged.
Came across this on eBay. Will need a lot of work and not sure if I’m up for it but it’s 2 lots of 51 foot saxons.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.ca%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F312125864879
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.ca%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F292550597323
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Those figures would need a lot of work. Would you strip the paint and start over?
The price is about 50 cents per figure (not including the postage), and the mailing time could be a good bit.
I'd prefer the Footsore figures from an aesthetic perspective.
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Agree with your assessment. I don’t think I have it in me to work on these.
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I'm almost tempted, but like you guys say it's a decent amount of work. I don't even mind that as much but there's just other sculpts and models I think I'd rather get first.
There's just to much good stuff out nowadays.
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Got in two games of Lion Rampant this past Saturday. Table top was 6'x4'.
My opponent had a 24 point army patterned after his study of Scandanavia during late middle age/early renaissance. He had two mounted crossbow units, two fierce foot, two bidowers, and a unit of crossbows. I opted to use my German army with its mounted men-at-arms, mounted crossbows (yes, those are the ones ... lol), two units of foot sergeants, and a unit of crossbows with pavise.
The first game was more a matter of getting re-adjusted to the rules and the German army list. We scattered 4 buildings as obstacles, two forests, and two hills. I wasn't coordinating my troops properly, and relearning the rules was easy, yet effected game play, and I lost in a straight up fight.
In the second game, using the same two armies, we rolled on the charts for a scenario and it was Bloodfeud, me being the defender. The attacker must kill my leader to win. Terrain used two large fields for rough ground in the center, two hills in defender's half of board, one building to one side of the center fields, one large forest to the other side straddling the center line of the the board. We alternated placing terrain and then allowed the defender to move one piece up to 12 inches in any direction (one of the hills moved closer to my area of defense). I put my leader in with the mounted men-at-arms, and used them heavily this time, and much better co-ordination between units, but he slowly picked off figures, and I eventually lost my leader, too. It was a much closer game and it came down to the very end, with only 6 units remaining on the board.
The fierce foot weren't overly weighted and seemed like a balanced unit. The bidowers can be quite the tricky units. I liked having the pavise with my crossbows. Initially forgot about how the mounted units of 6 figures use 12 dice anyway, and then 6 at half strength, but thank goodness they do or the horse units wouldn't be close to being useful.
Playing these got me motivated again to get cracking on my hobby storage unit, and get back to doing some painting asap.
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Great report!👆
Getting me hyped to get things rolling. Just picked up a dining room table 7’ long with 3 ‘ of inserts from my bosses house. I told him it was a step down for such a nice table to become a base for tabletop gaming. He laughed and said it was a step up from the dump for it so I don’t feel too bad 😸
Nice cameo of the mounted crossbow men btw!
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By the way, this past May picked up a copy of the newest rules in the Lion Rampant series ... Patriots and Rebels. These are set up for F&I War through to Amer. Civil War (not the one folks are so afraid of in that other thread, I mean the real one). They also have ideas for the late AWI, War of 1812 (including Canadians) 1830's Canadian war rebellion (or some such), Texan and Mexican wars, maybe a couple others.
Interestingly this new set does away with the ending of a player's turn if a unit doesn't make it's action role, and instead a player just moves on to the next unit. Think that makes more sense for this time period, and suspect it might even quicken play. However, might save this rules set for it's own thread since it ain't in line with Renaissance nor Medieval gaming, like Lion Rampant and Dragon Rampant, and Pikeman's Lament.
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Did not realize that patriots and rebels were an extension of LR. Was just looking over at the osprey site and saw the book. I have downloaded DR and LR rules but I still would like the physical editions as well. Very well priced I might add
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LR, DR, Pikeman's Lament, and Rebels and Patriots are all built on the same chassis.
R&P has some significant differences like ... close order versus open order, and the distance between bases having to be closer than in the other rule sets. These make for a better take on the formations of the era, compared to the others. Plus I already mentioned the player's turn not coming to an end when an activation role isn't successful on one unit. One seeming bugaboo with R&P might be the ranges being shorter for skirmish troops over line troops, although maybe there is a decent explanation somewhere, haven't found it yet though.
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Interesting GP
I seem to have missed that connection to Lion Rampant
Mentioned elsewhere I indulged in the Warlord Games Black Friday Sale on FIW (Black Powder) stuff - with half a mind on the news that there will be
a revised 2nd Edition of Muskets and Tomahawks next year.
I have been pondering long and hard how to base the figures.
My Wild West stuff has all been done on 25mm round bases, as there is generally no unit formations in most of the era rules sets, but FIW does throw up some confusion as there is a mix of 'formed-up' and skirmish units.
I am leaning at the moment to doing the British and French "Soldiers" on square bases and the Native Americans and skirmishers like Rangers on round bases.
However I have been temporarily stalled with the news that Renedra - after some inspiration from Northstar - are about to produce plastic rectangular movement trays which will house 25mm round bases.
Ok I know there are mdf versions already available, but these will get the minis bases in a tighter group - only a sort of 'corner' raised area will separate the figures - mini bases will actually touch, so no surround all around the mini - hope that makes sense?
Anyway so now I think I may even base my Regular Infantry on round bases.
Maybe we should have a thread for FIW era?
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Some folks, who follow what the Rampant/Lament/R&P writers are doing, base there 28mm armies for these rules systems all on round bases. The system is called 3-2-1 and generally there are two 40mm bases with 3 figures on them, two 30mm bases with 2 figures on them, and 2 25mm bases with one figure on each.
A friend of mine is doing this with his Medieval and AWI armies. Currently my Medieval armies are all individually based on 20mm squares because I am using some of my WFB figures for my German army and all my Perry WotRs figures are also on squares, although I am contemplating using the 3-2-1 system at some point.
I read somewhere that one guy is using his 4 ACW figures per square base x 3 for his R&P army.
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And by the way F&IW could make for a good thread. :icon_cool:
I have such figures in both 28mm and 40mm. Although both in limited quantities, and not enough for armies in almost any rules set. Perhaps I'll have the 28mm for R&P, but haven't decided.
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Also, if I recall correctly, there is another set of rules called The Men Who Would Be Kings which is also based off the Rampant rules chassis. They were written for Colonial era games.
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I'm rethinking how to spend my slots when purchasing the new Byzantines from Fireforge's kickstarter via the 7 box pledge level. I might only go for plastic. I've never been thrilled with the whole Vikings in a guard unit, although I'm sure there are some mighty nice Vikings and Cataphrats made by other producers anyway, if I want them as part of my Byzantine army.
Lion Rampant's list for Byzantines is as follows ... 3 mounted serjeant units (6 figures each) x 4 points =12 points, 2 foot serjeant units (12 figures each) x 4 points = 8, and 2 Bidower units (6 figures each) x 2 points = 4. Total points = 24.
1 box of the Koursores gives 2/3rds of the mounted serjeants. 1 box of the spearsmen gives both units of foot serjeants, and 1 box of Auxilairies gives all of the Bidowers, plus another 12 figures beyond that.
Two of the mounted serjeants could be turned into mounted archer units at plus 1 point per unit, but then I'd need to give up one of the Bidower units to keep the army at 24 points
Need to look up the Impetus and Day of Battle army lists for Byzantines before finalizing what boxes of figures ares chosen.
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This makes me think I can increase units by deceasing points. Like my 12 hand gunners can be 6 points instead of 12. Gives more ability to field more unit types
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All unit types in Lion Rampant have either 6 or 12 figures to start the game.
And there are 3 types of missile units ...
1. Archers (and slingers) cost 4 points for 12 figures, and these can be upgraded at the cost of 2 points per unit to Experts.
2. Crossbows cost 4 points and have 12 figures, and these can be upgraded at the cost of 2 points per unit to have Pavise.
3. Bidowers cost 2 points for 6 figures, although they have no upgrades available.
Not sure about Dragon Rampant's availability of handguns, yet the chassis is the same as Lion Rampant as far as figures and points.
Being pike and shot rules, Pikeman's Lament has handgun units, although my understanding is that Pikeman's Lament does not fully equate to the Lion Rampant and Dragon Rampant rules.
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All unit types in Lion Rampant have either 6 or 12 figures to start the game.
And there are 3 types of missile units ...
1. Archers (and slingers) cost 4 points for 12 figures, and these can be upgraded at the cost of 2 points per unit to Experts.
2. Crossbows cost 4 points and have 12 figures, and these can be upgraded at the cost of 2 points per unit to have Pavise.
3. Bidowers cost 2 points for 6 figures, although they have no upgrades available.
Not sure about Dragon Rampant's availability of handguns, yet the chassis is the same as Lion Rampant as far as figures and points.
Being pike and shot rules, Pikeman's Lament has handgun units, although my understanding is that Pikeman's Lament does not fully equate to the Lion Rampant and Dragon Rampant rules.
Great! That clarifies Units. That is the same as DR. I can definitely field a good size force
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Besides having my copy of Lion Rampant, found my copies of Dragon Rampant, Pikeman's Lament, and Rebels & Patriots. Plus I have copies of the supplement's to Pikeman's Lament ... Exotic Army Lists and National Army Lists.
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By the way, there is another set of the rules called "The Men Who Would Be Kings". This set of rules is for the mid to late 19th century Colonial Era.
And the same author wrote the Dark Age rules called Dux Bellorum, although not on the same chassis as the rest listed above.
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Also, found some ideas for Handgonnes to be used with Lion Rampant, and these all came from the author Dan Mersey.
1. He calls this listing the "Hollywood" version ...
This unit type has not been as heavily tested as the ones in the book … I dropped gunpowder part way through development, so this is very much a work in progress.
Additionally, please note that this profile is rather fanciful, to make this new technology stand out as something different on your battlefield – you may or may not like the results!
Lion Rampant is really intended for skirmishes fought before gunpowder became common on the battlefield. Even when large battles involved some numbers of guns, this wouldn’t always have filtered down to the localised conflicts depicted within these rules. That said, there are some lovely models available for early handgunners, so feel free to use this troop type in your host if appropriate.
UNIT NAME Handgonnes POINTS 4
Attack 7+ Attack value 6
Move 6+ Defence value 6
Shoot 8+ Shoot value / Range 6 / 12”
Courage 4+ Maximum movement 6”
Armour 2 Special rules Bang; Panic
Models per unit: 6
Special rules:
• Bang: All units count as Armour 1 against Shooting by this unit (Armour 2 if in cover).
• Panic: When this unit Shoots, the target unit must take a Courage test regardless of the number of hits inflicted.
Unit upgrades:
• Pavises @ 2 points per unit. As for Crossbows.
2. For use with the crossbow listing already provided in the rules ...
Admittedly the Handgonnes profile above is a little fanciful, for fun more than anything else. If that grates with your enjoyment of the rules, a more sober assessment of early gunpowder would be as a variant of Crossbowmen:
Unit upgrades:
• Firearms @ -1 point per unit: Range becomes 12”; may still upgrade to pavises.
Therefore a unit equipped in this way will cost 3 points (5 points with pavises). Not all of the models in the unit need to be armed with guns, a number could be carrying pavises or other weapons, without this affecting the unit’s effectiveness or profile.
3. This listing provides for a way to just use the figures and fitting into the rules without any changes ...
Use the Bidowers profile: Equally quick and simple, but I’d suggest this is a more accurate way of depicting firearms: the range is shorter and they will act as true skirmishers.
4. This listing just uses the crossbow rules and just switches the figures ...
Use the Crossbowmen profile: this is a quick and simple way to include firearms in your units; although their range is quite long, the slower firing rate compared to bows is a reasonable representation of early firearms.
I like the idea of using #3 for the Middle Ages time period of the rules. However, if using these rules for early renaissance, Italian Wars era, I might use #2 instead. I could see experimenting with #1, yet not sure I'd enjoy them. And #4 seems much less to my liking.
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I see a new supplement is due out later this month.
"The Crusader States"
(https://scontent.flhr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/101657744_2728937547340982_5001647982089601024_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=2AcXqjat9gEAX9Hu1_X&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-1.fna&oh=22f35aa4ef9ebf9c918e3a427c3d3182&oe=5F77C7DE)
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Hmmm ... will have to try googlefoo and see what is up with that. Thanks for the heads up! :::cheers:::
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It is not an Osprey book, though they are supporting it apparently.
It's a group called "Gaming the Crusades" from what I can glean off Facebook.
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Looks good!
What I read so far ... the book has 12 scenarios at the tale end that can be played individually or as a campaign, and it looks like these are based on historical events. Apparently there are army lists for the historical factions and various upgrades an characteristics.
The Professor that has gone in on writing of the book with Mersey wanted to develop this expansion teaching history classes.
And here is a link to a website full of articles on the Castle game the professor created and used with the Lion Rampant rules, which was at Salute in 2019 ...
https://crusadercastle.wordpress.com/
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Following up on the "Crusader States" Lion Rampant is ... "A Viking In The Sun".
Not out as of this post, although it is expected some time this month.
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Little did I know when I set up the title of this thread back then that Lion Rampant would be having a 2nd Edition, but ... that is the rumor.
Apparently ... new rules, more army lists, more scenarios. I've heard other things as well, but that is the best for the moment.
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Apparently Lion Rampant 2nd Edition will be out on July 21, 2022 ...
https://ospreypublishing.com/blog/cat/osprey-games/post/newrampant2022/
And the new Xenos Rampant is next on November 24th, 2022. :icon_eek:
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I'm looking forward to seeing both the revised edition and the new sci-fi edition.
I already use the Lion Rampant rules quite a bit, and hoping that Xenos Rampant works well enough for use with my 40K figures.
By the way, I'm hosting a Friendly Friday Lion Rampant Tourney at Huzzah! 2022 in May.
Also during the game convention, I am featuring Lion Rampant with my Civitate scenario as well on Thursday night and Sunday morning. This scenario has been play tested around a dozen times, using various orders of battle, and is now in a spot where it is somewhat challenging for the Papal Coalition, although the Normans don't have it easy. I'm now even using a couple of mixed units on the Papal side, as well as a half sized unit for the Leo IX, switch crossbow units to archers, and have expanded the number of Norman units to continue to be competitive with the Pope's force.
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I now own both supplements ... the "Crusader States", and "A Viking In The Sun".
Also, have organized my medieval figures into 6 armies ... Flemish, French, German, Italian, Late English, and Norman.
Planning on having 6 more armies as soon as possible ... Spanish, Berbers/Moors, Byzantines, Crusaders, Saladin, and Free Company.
Looking forward to seeing the new 2nd edition rules announced for July of 2022.
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From the author of the rules himself regarding 2nd editon ...
New material includes optional upgrades for the main troop types, optional battle rules, purchased Leader traits, additional scenarios, two simple campaigns, many more sample armies, and more detail on terrain. Plus clarifications or amendments to some of the rules to make the game clearer or smoother.
This sounds very good. :icon_cool: :::cheers:::
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Have received my copy of 2nd Edition. Only reviewed through it quickly though. Looking for a more thorough review at some point. :icon_cool: :::cheers:::