Topic: Empire State Troops

[bluetwyst]

Here goes:

Empire State Troops
WS BS S T W I A Ld
 3    3  3 3 1 3 1  7
Empire Sergeant
WS BS S T W I A Ld
 3    3  3 3 1 3 2  7

Equipment: Hand Weapon, Light Armor
Points: 4

May take a shield (+1 point/model), and either a spear (+1 point/model), a halberd (+1 point/model), or a pike (+6 points/model)
May take heavy armor (+1 point/model). May not select heavy armor, a shield, and a non-hand weapon. A shield may not be combined with a pike.

If neither a spear, a pike, nor a halberd is taken, may specialize in the sword (+1 WS, +1 I) (+1 point/model)

May take a standard bearer (+4 points), a musician (+4 points), and/or a sergeant (+8 points)

For each captain or general of the empire, one magic standard can be taken up to 25 points.

Pike: Fight in four ranks; requires two hands to use.
Always strikes first in the initial round of combat, even striking before enemies have charged. Note that enemies who are entitled to strike first by either a special ability or magic will strike before a pike-armed model.
Models receive a +1 strength bonus in the turn they are charged by cavalry units, chariots or monsters. Note that this bonus only applies to attacks against the above charging units, not against other units.
All these special rules cannot be used against enemy units fighting the pikemen in the flank or rear.

[Toro_Blanco]

I like it, I'd just tweak the wording a bit, like: May take a shield (+1 point), and one of the following: [various weapons here], or specialize in swords.  To me, this makes it a bit more clear.

[bluetwyst]

Thanks for input, editing wording now...

[Uryens de Crux]

I'd also say shield or Pike. not both.

And give pike a heavy armour option (actually I'd want it for all state troops, but thats just me - or maybe one unit of state troops is the GotE's personal retinue so can have heavy stuff?)

[bluetwyst]

I've added heavy armor, but no combination with shields and a special weapon. I think that pikes should be able to be taken with shields, but if more people weigh in, I'll change it.

[Inarticulate]

I think halberd + pike should be two-handed weapons. So Heavy armour and pike.

Heavy armour + shield is good. Would make people think about having either heavy swordsmen and spearman or the amazingness of the pike.

Also think the pike rules should be the same as before. Always fight in 4 ranks, charges with three ranks +1 strength against cavalry.

[Dunrik]

heavy armour should be limited to halberds and pikes. Everything else is fine (perhaps dropping the shields from the pikemen though)

Cheers

Dunrik

[bluetwyst]

I think halberd + pike should be two-handed weapons. So Heavy armour and pike.

Heavy armour + shield is good. Would make people think about having either heavy swordsmen and spearman or the amazingness of the pike.

Also think the pike rules should be the same as before. Always fight in 4 ranks, charges with three ranks +1 strength against cavalry.

The pike rules... I think that is a discussion in and of itself. I'm going to make a new thread here called the pike in a sec.

heavy armour should be limited to halberds and pikes. Everything else is fine (perhaps dropping the shields from the pikemen though)

Cheers

Dunrik

Dropping shields from pikemen... done. I'm going to keep heavy armor available to all who want it unless there is consensus otherwise.

[bluetwyst]

Pikes have had points increased to 6, using DoW rules. Discussion over which rules preferable in 'The Pike' thread.

[Toro_Blanco]

Beauty.  Cut it, print it, let's start playing.

[Inarticulate]

Tbh 10 points per pikeman is a little pricey. As a DoW general, I've seen two 360 point pike units flee off the table from one pike. They're only humans - and humans that didn't get into crossbow school.

[patsy02]

Compare the pikeman to a HE spearman:

Both are 10 points.

The high elf has ASF, M5, WS4, I5, and LD8. He strikes in one less rank, and can use the shield for a 4+ save in combat.
The human has M4, WS3, I3 and LD7. He has a 6+ save, or 5+ for 11 points.

I think the pike upgrade should be 4 or 3 pts.

[Toro_Blanco]

Compare the pikeman to a HE spearman:

Both are 10 points.

The high elf has ASF, M5, WS4, I5, and LD8. He strikes in one less rank, and can use the shield for a 4+ save in combat.
The human has M4, WS3, I3 and LD7. He has a 6+ save, or 5+ for 11 points.

I think the pike upgrade should be 4 or 3 pts.

Perhaps, but I've thought that HE are underpriced and overpowered, if anything.

I agree that point-for-point there's a disparity here.

[patsy02]

Or even better, compare to dark elf spearmen! Two less ranks, same stats as HE, no ASF but universal hatred, all for the sum of 8 points.

[bluetwyst]

I'll wait to see a consensus, then adjust accordingly.

[Dihenydd]

I like this. 

+++

Edit as below:

Build a State Trooper

Basic solider of the Empire - HW, L.Armour 4pts

Armour upgrade
Shield +1
H.Armour +2
F.Plate Armour +4

Weapon Upgrades
Extra HW +2
Spear +1
Halberd +1
Pike +5
GW +3
Crossbow +4
Bow +4
Handgun +4
Pistol +2

Training Upgrades.  May take 1 of the following
Skirmish +2
Skirmish/Scout +4 (this choice is 0-1)
WS 4 +2 (yes this makes classic swordsmen cost 1 pt more I know)
Stubborn +4 (this choice is 0-1)

Command upgrade cost is for Core/Special
Musician 4/6
Standard 4/6 (may take magic banner up to 20 pts)
Sgt 7/13

Units costing 10 or more points are Special choice only

Sample Builds

Lansknect (sp) with WS4 = 11 pts Special
Swordsmen = 6pt
Skirmishing Duelists = 8pts
H.Armoured Pikes = 11 Special (FYI full unit of 25 with FC = 300pts)
Scout/Skirmish Handgunners = 12 pts special (just cause you want to)

Certain characters allow you to upgrade some things for free and/or add certain banners.

Sure some builds are crazy.  But you pay through the nose for them.  Much better to take only a couple of upgrades at most per unit and have more units.  But if you want the elite army, its do-able, if expensive.

[bluetwyst]

Extra HW and Pistol are the same price? Pistol is always better, counts as extra HW. I recommend 3/pistol, or 5/brace. Also, with this plan, a 9 point 3+ armor save, 2+ in CC person can be made. Many overpowered things are possible with this in my opinion.

[ZehKaiser]

dhenydd, your suggestion is pretty cool, but it makes greatswords more expensive and less efficient. They would become 0-1 and cost 17 points if I'm reading your list right. That's absurd and shows that you list might be too flexible in some ways and rigidly inflexible in others. +7 points and a rules penalty to a unit that is currently fine or even arguably over priced seems a bit ridiculous.

[t12161991]

Great weapons should be 2 points each. Stubborn 2/3 as it is 0-1.

[Inarticulate]

Extra HW and Pistol are the same price? Pistol is always better, counts as extra HW. I recommend 3/pistol, or 5/brace. Also, with this plan, a 9 point 3+ armor save, 2+ in CC person can be made. Many overpowered things are possible with this in my opinion.

5 for a brace? more like 10

[der Hurenwiebel]

about the only thing I would change from your current build is that there may not be more models with stubborn than have it.  The restriction on stubborn lifted with the 7th edition is good in that one can build a true elector's guard, mirroring this in the proposed 8th ed with a minor restriction like disallowing a complete elite army would be suitable.

Also in keeping with the core troops, and their detatchment special rules.  These should be reciprocal allowing parent units to support detatchments. 

[Dihenydd]

Pistols aren't always better, for instance the extra HW allows a FC type unit whereas pistols would almost always be used with skirmish.

I agree, some 'traditional' troops may change, but they would be replaced with new troops

The 9pt CC monsters are only WS 3, but yes it is possible.  For a unit of 20, that 205pts without detachments.  

Zeh, yes but that's where you allow characters able to mod specific units.   For instance, GoTE gives free 'stubborn' etc. or 1 GS-like unit for 12pts.  So the list is flexible.

And I'm not married to these pt costs, they can be modified of course, but I really like the concept of pure builds.

And who wouldn't want skirmishing pistol duelists?  

Oh, and I forgot Warlord Pavises

[Qrab]

IF one is going to include Pikes as a mainstay in the Empire (not something that I'm in favor of, personally), then the +1S bonus should be simplified thusly, "Models receive a +1 strength bonus in the turn they are charged by enemy models that are US2 or more. Note that this bonus only applies to attacks against the above charging units, not against other units."

This covers Cavalry, Ogres, Chariots, Monsters, Things-That-Move-Like-Monsters -But-Aren't Monsters, and Cav models in Infantry units.

[Warlord]

As posted in the Elector's forum:

I think the rule for pikes should be as is, except as well as +1S against those types of targets, it should also be -2AS modifer.
They can't be detachments (like Greatswords), nor can they have detachments (like Free Company). Should be probably 9 points, with cheap command options like the rest of our troops. Can be a Core choice, however no more units of Pikes than units of other state troops. Have option for heavy armour at +1 pt.

Greatswords remain untouched.

In so far as the skirmisher situation, I think that would tie back in to what kind of upgrades we allow for our infantry units. I wrote a well thought out one of these a while back, but here it is re-hashed:

State Trooper
Human stats, 4pts, Light Armour, Hand Weapon

Can only choose a maximum of 2 of the following 3 categories, must choose at least 1:
Can choose one of the following WEAPONS:
+1pt - Halberd
+1pt - Spear
+1pt - Extra hand weapon
+3pt - Pistol
+4pt - Handgun
+4pt - Crossbow

Can choose one of the following ARMOUR:
+1pt - Shield
+1pt - Heavy Armour
+2pt - Pavise

Can choose one of the following TRAINING:
+1pt - 1WS
+1pt - 1I
+2pt - 1Ld

I can't see any super combinations with that listed above.

Then to go further, you create a similar listing for the militia:

Militia
Human stats, 4pts, Hand Weapon, Skirmish

Must choose at least 1 of the following 2 categories:
Can choose one of the following WEAPONS:
+1pt - Extra hand weapon
+2pt - Great Weapon
+4pt - Pistol
+4pt - Bow
+5pt - Longbow

Can choose one of the following ABILITIES:
Free - Rank up
+2pt - Scout

[Toro_Blanco]

Let's not get too crazy with making state troops "Build Your Own", or there will be only about five units in the whole book.

I think a basic setup to make them halberds, pikes, spears, and swords/handweapon of your choice is perfect for the mainstays of an army.  Greatswords, and maybe a few other modified state troops, should be a special choice, and possibly even pikes (MAYBE).

If we're really going to go with state troops being super-customizable, I think (like with knightly orders) certain upgrades need to be automatic specials.  Certain troops are just going to be too expensive (in terms of money, not points), elite, or damned good to be core options.