Topic: The Pike

[bluetwyst]

The pike is a sore subject for many of us. Most would like to see it in the next army book, but there are many different interpretations of the rules. Below, there are a couple different options (handily labeled with letters) for discussion. Please insert your own ideas as well.

Option A Fight in four ranks; requires two hands to use.
Always strikes first in the initial round of combat, even striking before enemies have charged. Note that enemies who are entitled to strike first by either a special ability or magic will strike before a pike-armed model.
Models receive a +1 strength bonus in the turn they are charged by cavalry units, chariots or monsters. Note that this bonus only applies to attacks against the above charging units, not against other units.
All these special rules cannot be used against enemy units fighting the pikemen in the flank or rear.

Other suggestions to change things up? To overpowered? To underpowered?

[Inarticulate]

Pikes:
Fight in four ranks; requires two hands to use.
Always strikes first in the initial round of combat, even striking before enemies have charged. Note that enemies who are entitled to strike first by either a special ability or magic will strike before a pike-armed model.
Models receive a +1 strength bonus in the turn they are charged by cavalry units, chariots or monsters. Note that this bonus only applies to attacks against the above charging units, not against other units.
All these special rules cannot be used against enemy units fighting the pikemen's flank or rear.

These are the current rules. And they're hawesome.

[bluetwyst]

Those rules incorporate both options, so I've merged them together. It does seem a bit powerful though. We might have to modify the cost in the State Troops thread to something higher if we use those stats.

[Mogsam]

ASF should go after pikes, it's a 10 foot weapon, it doesn't matter how fast you are when your attacking a wall.

Unless you're in that Golden Flower film with the halbard fighting. That's pretty sexy.

Mogsam

[Toro_Blanco]

Those rules incorporate both options, so I've merged them together. It does seem a bit powerful though. We might have to modify the cost in the State Troops thread to something higher if we use those stats.

In DoW I believe they're 10 points or so...maybe make the pike upgrade +6.

[bluetwyst]

Those rules incorporate both options, so I've merged them together. It does seem a bit powerful though. We might have to modify the cost in the State Troops thread to something higher if we use those stats.

In DoW I believe they're 10 points or so...maybe make the pike upgrade +6.

Doing it now

[ZehKaiser]

I strongly believe that DoW pikes are overpriced by at least 1 point as they are now. They were designed under a 5th edition price structure. From 5th to 6th to 7th, (and now into 8th) the value of a point has changed dramatically. What 1 point buys for you in 7th is much more than what it got you in 6th across the board for all armies. Based on this alone the pikemen should be cheaper, but then you have to factor in a couple weaknessess as well.

We should also include the benefit pikes get, which is to say the detachment rules and access to better magic banners.

We also have to think about whether pikes asf is before true asf.  I would suggest that brb asf goes before pike asf in all cases except for if a unit with brb asf (HE for instance) charges a pike unit. Then in that one case the pike asf would be triggered first. The simplest way to word that in the pike rules would be to give pikemen Initiative 10 on the turn they are charged, then I3 after that.

And lastly, the one thing that bothers most current pike users to no end since the release of OK's is that ogre sized models squeek through the +1S bonus to pikes. That is obviously a simple oversight, so we should correct it now, in fact I'm surprised nobody else has suggested it. Why do cav, monsters, and chariots get impaled stronger pikes, but ogres, rat ogres, kroxigors, trolls, etc don't?  I'd suggest wording the the strength bonus to "pikes get +1 strength against all charging models that are US2 or higher." That alone would fix it. I can only think of 1 slow thing that is US2+ and that is a dwarf on a shield, and with only 1 small exception, AND that exception not giving a care in the world about a few extra S pike attacks, I think its a solid revision.

This is all just my two cents.

btw, I think the pike upgrade for the new state troop regiments should be 4 or 5 points per model, not 6.

[der Hurenwiebel]

Agreed, leaning towards 4 points. Just a note a pike is defined as any spear over 12 feet long usually 14 to 18 feet, most landesknecht pikes were 16 feet for example.  These would be represented on a 28 mm model by a spear some, 80 mm long.

[Michael W]

I gotta admit, guys, I play DoW, and I hate the Pike rules as they're written there.  In short, they're too complicated.

Four ranks, counts as a Defended Obstacle, both rules (obviously) only to the front.

Cavalry lose their lances and (if other humans) are now matched for initiative.  Brets lose the whole lance formation.  Pikes win not by killing enemy horsemen, but by denying kills to them (since they'll score just over half as many kills at S3 instead of S5).  Light cavalry WILL be slaughtered, period, even if they get to do a little damage first.

In addition, the Pikes remain a considerable threat to enemy infantry.  Four ranks and no charging bonus for the enemy is nothing to laugh at.  Dwarves, Ogres, and Undead will strike second.  Humans are matched.  True, some foes will still go first, but against four ranks of S3 attacks - and more of them, since pikes can cost less. 

Truly heavily armoured and armed foes - Dwarf Ironbreakers, Chaos Knights, etc. - will still mow through pikemen, and they should.  These awesomely armoured fantasy soldiers have little to fear from pointy sticks.  But if the pikemen are State Troops, then slaughtering pikemen may still see defeat thanks to free companies on the flanks or a timely volley of handgun bullets.

I advocate these rules for three reasons:
   a)  Cost.  Simple rules, no major benefits = lower cost pikemen = more pikemen.  Always a beautiful sight, and nobody wants to spend 330 pts on a single block of humans, no matter what weapon they're carrying.
   b)  Precedent.  Fights in Four Ranks is just an extension of the Fights in Ranks rule.  And Bretonnian archers already have the Defended Obstacle against Foes to the Front rule.  We're not making anything new.
   c)  Simplicity.  The rules are straightforward and apply equally to all foes.  No "our ASF is secondary to your ASF" things.  Just move to Initiative and resolve the combat by the book.

Just my 2 cents. 

[Dunrik]

I'm leaning over to agree with Michael W here. Simple and still in the spirit of the pike.

Cheers

Dunrik

[Uryens de Crux]

I'm leaning over to agree with Michael W here. Simple and still in the spirit of the pike.

Cheers

Dunrik

Got to say I like it too, the bonus to strength can be countered by the fact that they are long bits of wood that snap easily, and so cant exert that extra strenght in the hit

Yeah, I quite like MichaelWs rules for this

[Rodman49]

I gotta admit, guys, I play DoW, and I hate the Pike rules as they're written there.  In short, they're too complicated.

Four ranks, counts as a Defended Obstacle, both rules (obviously) only to the front.

Brilliant man!  Make them 8 points a piece with light armor and we are good to go!

[Uryens de Crux]

I gotta admit, guys, I play DoW, and I hate the Pike rules as they're written there.  In short, they're too complicated.

Four ranks, counts as a Defended Obstacle, both rules (obviously) only to the front.

Brilliant man!  Make them 8 points a piece with light armor and we are good to go!

With a heavy armour option...

[Michael W]

HA for DoW, not Empire - if these guys are State Troops then they do need SOME disadvantage.     Otherwise our Swordsmen will feel threatened, all the way from the tips of their feathers to the depths of their codpieces...

[Toro_Blanco]

HA for DoW, not Empire - if these guys are State Troops then they do need SOME disadvantage.     Otherwise our Swordsmen will feel threatened, all the way from the tips of their feathers to the depths of their codpieces...

Maybe Heavy Armor makes them a special choice, like IC knights?

[Rodman49]

To complex, making them 8 points (or even 7) with just light armor brings them more in line as a legitimate option against swordsmen.

[commandant]

I gotta admit, guys, I play DoW, and I hate the Pike rules as they're written there.  In short, they're too complicated.

Four ranks, counts as a Defended Obstacle, both rules (obviously) only to the front.

Cavalry lose their lances and (if other humans) are now matched for initiative.  Brets lose the whole lance formation.  Pikes win not by killing enemy horsemen, but by denying kills to them (since they'll score just over half as many kills at S3 instead of S5).  Light cavalry WILL be slaughtered, period, even if they get to do a little damage first.

In addition, the Pikes remain a considerable threat to enemy infantry.  Four ranks and no charging bonus for the enemy is nothing to laugh at.  Dwarves, Ogres, and Undead will strike second.  Humans are matched.  True, some foes will still go first, but against four ranks of S3 attacks - and more of them, since pikes can cost less. 

Truly heavily armoured and armed foes - Dwarf Ironbreakers, Chaos Knights, etc. - will still mow through pikemen, and they should.  These awesomely armoured fantasy soldiers have little to fear from pointy sticks.  But if the pikemen are State Troops, then slaughtering pikemen may still see defeat thanks to free companies on the flanks or a timely volley of handgun bullets.

I advocate these rules for three reasons:
   a)  Cost.  Simple rules, no major benefits = lower cost pikemen = more pikemen.  Always a beautiful sight, and nobody wants to spend 330 pts on a single block of humans, no matter what weapon they're carrying.
   b)  Precedent.  Fights in Four Ranks is just an extension of the Fights in Ranks rule.  And Bretonnian archers already have the Defended Obstacle against Foes to the Front rule.  We're not making anything new.
   c)  Simplicity.  The rules are straightforward and apply equally to all foes.  No "our ASF is secondary to your ASF" things.  Just move to Initiative and resolve the combat by the book.

Just my 2 cents. 

I agree with most of this but in my way of thinking pikes should always strike frist.   They are 18 feet long for crying out loud.   There is no my ASF gose after your ASF its is simple.   In the first round of combat when attacked to the front I strike frist.   Much simplier.
I would suggest that pikes can't charge but advance into combat at their basic speed 4inches.   They can march though meaning they would become a defensive unit which is what they were
+2 St against anything with M6+ or US2+ in order to represent the force of the foe empaleing themselves on the pikes

[Eardatch]

I had an idea about this to remove this ASF confusion: Since they are defended obstacles, and thus enemies gain no advantages from charging them including striking first, simply increase the pikemen's initiative to 5 or 6 for the first round (or for more realism, first rank I=6, second rank I=5, third I=4 and fourth I=3)

[Uryens de Crux]

Makes it VERY complicated

[shavixmir]

Four ranks, counts as a Defended Obstacle, both rules (obviously) only to the front.

Cavalry lose their lances and (if other humans) are now matched for initiative.  Brets lose the whole lance formation.  Pikes win not by killing enemy horsemen, but by denying kills to them (since they'll score just over half as many kills at S3 instead of S5).  Light cavalry WILL be slaughtered, period, even if they get to do a little damage first.

In addition, the Pikes remain a considerable threat to enemy infantry.  Four ranks and no charging bonus for the enemy is nothing to laugh at.  Dwarves, Ogres, and Undead will strike second.  Humans are matched.  True, some foes will still go first, but against four ranks of S3 attacks - and more of them, since pikes can cost less. 

Truly heavily armoured and armed foes - Dwarf Ironbreakers, Chaos Knights, etc. - will still mow through pikemen, and they should.  These awesomely armoured fantasy soldiers have little to fear from pointy sticks. 

Excellent.
Make it so! (waves with finger as if my Enterprise is moving somewhere)

[commandant]

Truly heavily armoured and armed foes - Dwarf Ironbreakers, Chaos Knights, etc. - will still mow through pikemen, and they should. 

Sir I respectfully disagree.   The entire point of a pike was the fact that heavily armoured stuff couldn't just mow through it.   The pike was the weapon that destroyed heavily armoured knights because they were now no longer able to compete with infantry.   When we consider the rules for pikes we need to take two things into consideration.

1: Attacking an orderly ranked up unit of pikes with horses is a death trap.   Unless the pike block breaks the horse will never, ever, get near enough to do any damage.   Therefore the rules should show the strenght of pikes against horses and this strenght should be greater than their strenght against infantry

2: Pikes can't attack in the classic sense.   Because of the lenght of the weapon a pikeman can't charge but must advance in good order.  

With this in mind I purpose the following rule for three reasons,
1: They are simple
2: They cover all the aspects that a pike should
3: I believe they are balanced.

The rules:
1: Pikes fight in 4 ranks
2: Pikes Always Strike First in the first round of combat.   Nothing, magical or otherwise will allow a foe to strike before the pikeman
3: Pikes give +2 Strenght against anything with 6+ inches movement and +1 Strenght against anything with 6- inches movement.
4: Pikes can't charge but advance into combat at their basic movement.   They are still allowed to charge.

Given the vast array of complex rules that some magic items claim I think these are fairly simple, balanced and also cover the basic aspects of the pike

[t12161991]

Five words.

This is a FANTASY game.

[commandant]

Five words.

This is a FANTASY game.

Of that I am well aware, hey I know there is no Harry Potter world on earth and the men can not become gods and that elves do not really exsist.   However even fansty has to obey the laws of nature somewhat and when you have a solid wall of disclipined men all holding something that is 18 feet long and pointy then you must represent as solid wall of disclipined men all armed with a weapon that is 18 feet long and pointy.   I could make much more complex rules if you desire it however I wanted to represent what a pike is and still keep it simple enough to play.   If you don't want a pike to be a pike then call it something else and use rules to represent the new weapon you have decided upon.   However if you want to call it a pike then play it like a pike.   The rules that I suggested are not very complex and given that WFB is an adults game I would suggest that no player that wanted to use pikes would have a problem remembering them

[t12161991]

Dragons don't care how long your pike is. Heavily armored Dwarfs will just kind of walk in. Chaos knights and Elves can move fast enough to smash the pikes aside without getting hit.

It's not so much that I don't like your rules, or think they are too complicated, but that Michael W's are simpler.

[Michael W]

I was going to come back and defend my idea, but I guess others have handled that bit.   

Just two issues with the uber-pikes.  First, cost:  +1 Str in 4 ranks with ASF at Init 11?  3 pts (human) + 1 (light armour) + 2 (4 ranks but two hands) + 4 (+1 str per rank) + 2 (+1 extra str vs lots of other stuff) +1 (ASF) +1 (Init 11, in effect) - 1 (can't charge)= 13 pts/model or thereabouts.  I play DoW now, and my pikes rarely see the table since 10 pts/model for a human in light armour is simply more than I care to pay. 

The other issue is that, if we're aiming for historical accuracy, then the pike is only a useful weapon on a clear and open field.  So a minor addition to the rules might run as follows:

Just Too Long:  Pikes are too unwieldy to be used when the ground is not level and open.  A unit armed with pikes reverts to hand weapons when it or the unit it is engaged with are in any type of difficult terrain (including buildings, forests, water features, rough hills, etc.).