Topic: Warhammer - Empire Rulebook

[Syn Ace]

It's been calculated that a Roman legionnaire faced ten Macedonian pike points going up against a phalanx--it was a wall of pike points. I could see Sword Masters maybe going before them (hacking pike heads off like a buzz saw, but Elf spearmen would be be screwed in my opinion and wouldn't be able to ASF with their shorter weapon.

[IsThisIt]

Well you have to remember that this is a fantasy game.  A race so agile and quick that it is able to attack before 95% of its opponents could probably find a way to negotiate a wall of pikes, whether it be slicing off the heads of the pikes, rolling underneath, weaving in between, deflecting, whatever. 

he drawback of this unit should be that it is vulnerable to missile fire.  Pikes have to stay in tight formation to be effective, so in my mind, they shouldn't be able to shrug off missile fire. Now that I'm talking out loud, it might be interesting if you give them the option of taking Heavy Armor, but give all missile troops a +1 to hit them, to represent the tight formation they must maintain.  You could take this into consideration by making them slightly cheaper. 

[commandant]

Well you have to remember that this is a fantasy game.  A race so agile and quick that it is able to attack before 95% of its opponents could probably find a way to negotiate a wall of pikes, whether it be slicing off the heads of the pikes, rolling underneath, weaving in between, deflecting, whatever. 

he drawback of this unit should be that it is vulnerable to missile fire.  Pikes have to stay in tight formation to be effective, so in my mind, they shouldn't be able to shrug off missile fire. Now that I'm talking out loud, it might be interesting if you give them the option of taking Heavy Armor, but give all missile troops a +1 to hit them, to represent the tight formation they must maintain.  You could take this into consideration by making them slightly cheaper. 

The drawback of pikes is their complete inability to move, charge or otherwise do anything except accept a charge and kick its sorry butt

[blazing-sun]

These 8 point troops you are talking about are completely overpowered. Full plate? pshh how about actually changing pike rules to fighting in 3 ranks and EITHER asf or +1 against cav charge w/ light armor.

[t12161991]

Pikes:

Points:7 per model

M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD7

Unit size: 10+

Equipment:pikes, hand weapon

Options: May take either light armor for +1 point per model, or heavy armor for +2 points per model. May take Uberpikes for -2 points per model, as they are so much worse than pikes.

Command:
Musician: +5 points
Standard: +10 points
Champion: +10 points

Pike rules: Strike in 4 ranks, ASF, +1S against all chargers, defended obstacle (no charge bonuses). None of these bonuses apply when charged in the flank or rear.

Uberpike rules: Strike in 4 ranks, ASF, +3S against all chargers, defended obstacle (no charge bonuses), penetrate ranks like bolt throwers. Terror.

[bluetwyst]

Hold up guys!!

You want to make the Halberdiers 4 points? That is about 4 times too many. And the 1+ armor save should be upgraded to at least -4+, and should be made re-rollable.

[Grutch]

I'm thinking about setting up an entire subforum for the discussion of the new Empire book.  It will be dissected into segments so that we can stay focused and help organize the ideas that are presented.  

It will likely be broken down by army book ranks.  Lords + Heroes, Special Characters, Core, Special, Rare, War Machines, Special Empire Army Abilities, magic items, banners, and a major discussion panel where everything is tied together.

For the first thirty days, we should throw all our ideas into the mix, even the wild and crazy ones.  Then we will do some polling to see where people feel things are popular, etc.   Following that the staff will designate a Master Designer who will start wrangling the better ideas into a workable realistic list.  This master designer will be where the buck stops, because full design by committee is  doomed to failure.  

The master designer will finalize the list and we can start playtesting it and report in at our leisure.  Following that we can do reports, discuss strengths and weaknesses, or exploits and make edits where needed and help perfect the list over time.  

I did something like this with a game designer from High Moon Studios.  His ideas were superb, but he's out of the Warhammer thing for the time being.  I'll likely steal his ideas and include them in our discussion.  I'm hoping my many years in the game industry will pay off in helping us with this effort.  Ultimately I'd like to package our ideas at a professional level and present them to the Games Workshop design staff for their consideration.  Perhaps they won't even read it, and scoff at our petty efforts, but many of you attend tournaments, and gamesdays where we might be able to whisper in some ears and bring this to the GW table.  Who knows, I might pull General Helstrom out of retirement to help us in this venture.  

Grutch

[t12161991]

Over at asrai.org we may not have a subforum, but we are working on a rewrite proposal. And have been since August of last year. It's progressing... slowly.

My main point is that it's good to air the ideas and see what comes out of them, as long as they are reasonable.

That sort of proposal is the intended goal of our project by the way.

[WallyTWest]

I have said this before... Why not have warhammer online release a yearly journal/webzine to publish its work? You could have additional unit entries, special rules, even whole batte reports or a how to painting section.

[Marcus_Octavius]

There could be an additional special rule for state troops being "Drilled" allowing a unit to take a LD test if within the LD range of a character (12" for general or character/unit champ in unit or character/unit champ in parent unit for detachment), if passed the back ranks step forward and fight with full attacks as if no casualties had been taken.  Allowing for Empire soldiers to calmly step forward to fight when given the order to do so. 

It'll make up for out heavy losses in combat, make halberdiers and greatswords worthwhile troops and give benefits over using more reliable troops, but still requires a LD test to perform the function meaning it isn't a sure thing.

[Syn Ace]

Well you have to remember that this is a fantasy game.  A race so agile and quick that it is able to attack before 95% of its opponents could probably find a way to negotiate a wall of pikes, whether it be slicing off the heads of the pikes, rolling underneath, weaving in between, deflecting, whatever. 

he drawback of this unit should be that it is vulnerable to missile fire.  Pikes have to stay in tight formation to be effective, so in my mind, they shouldn't be able to shrug off missile fire. Now that I'm talking out loud, it might be interesting if you give them the option of taking Heavy Armor, but give all missile troops a +1 to hit them, to represent the tight formation they must maintain.  You could take this into consideration by making them slightly cheaper. 

I see elves as being faster than humans, but not able to run between drops of rain without getting wet.  

As far as being vulnerable to missile fire, I'd think more vulnerable to gunpowder weapons than arrows and such. Macedonian pike, the back ranks out of stabbing range were trained to hold their pikes up at and angle and wave the back and forth to help deflect in coming missile fire. Of course, the army on a warhammer tabletop is tiny and pike units are usually not too deep, so kind of academic.

[Obi]

I'm thinking about setting up an entire subforum for the discussion of the new Empire book.  It will be dissected into segments so that we can stay focused and help organize the ideas that are presented.  

It will likely be broken down by army book ranks.  Lords + Heroes, Special Characters, Core, Special, Rare, War Machines, Special Empire Army Abilities, magic items, banners, and a major discussion panel where everything is tied together.

For the first thirty days, we should throw all our ideas into the mix, even the wild and crazy ones.  Then we will do some polling to see where people feel things are popular, etc.   Following that the staff will designate a Master Designer who will start wrangling the better ideas into a workable realistic list.  This master designer will be where the buck stops, because full design by committee is  doomed to failure.  

The master designer will finalize the list and we can start playtesting it and report in at our leisure.  Following that we can do reports, discuss strengths and weaknesses, or exploits and make edits where needed and help perfect the list over time.  

This sounds like a great idea. Much better than this random five-hundreth thread over the same issue. I'd definitely be up for that.

[Dunrik]

I think that would be a lovely idea Grutch. It will most likely kill of those random five hundred threads about it as Obi says, and will (I hope) remove the 10 +  page discussions with sarcasm. I'm all in!

Cheers

Dunrik

[phillyt]

Dam I was attempting to get in here before the poor "insert random pike/engineer/creation" jokes started. Ah well, theres a thread for that chaps, keep one for the "funnies" and one for semi-serious suggestions so I don't have to trawl through about 3 pages nonsense before reading something good!

Why?  I think it is fairly clear that as a community, we are not yet ready for "How do I fix the Empire" post version 56.9.

Also, what is a Codex?  I have an Empire Army book...

Phil

[Eardatch]

How about drop spearmen and let Halberdiers attack in two ranks, 6 pts plus heavy armor for +1 pt (could let swords get this same heavy armor upgrade too)?

I think Pikes should be core, but not state troops. They might be limited to maybe no more than one unit for every unit of core state troops (halberds and swordsmen)

Greatswords: One unit may be take as core if you have an elector count, and an elector count in a unit of Greatswords can reroll failed "look out sir" rolls.

If your really crazy, perhaps a special state troop pikemen unit:

Imperial Guard: 15 pts, special choice, 0-1, unit size: 10+
M4 WS4 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 L8
Equip: Full plate, hand weapon, pike
Special:State troops (cannot be detachment), fear when charged

[vesrian]

I'm thinking about setting up an entire subforum for the discussion of the new Empire book.  It will be dissected into segments so that we can stay focused and help organize the ideas that are presented.  

It will likely be broken down by army book ranks.  Lords + Heroes, Special Characters, Core, Special, Rare, War Machines, Special Empire Army Abilities, magic items, banners, and a major discussion panel where everything is tied together.

All of the threads i've read that haven't devolved into nonsense have the same problem of "too many chefs".  Everyone has their own idea of how things should be. And even if they agree on the general idea, the details are all different (there's at least 4 versions of pikemen rules in this thread alone). Is this subfourm really going to be any different?

[sambofred]

This sounds like a great idea. Much better than this random five-hundreth thread over the same issue. I'd definitely be up for that.

Hey, at least I didnt start the 501st 'lets make our own empire book' thread.

Again, there are so many great ideas floating around here sometimes it helps to hear them 3 or 4 times 

[phillyt]

Or not given that they are all equally irrelevant.

Honestly if people spent more time exploring the current army book and the BRB they wouldn't need to find ways to fix that which is not actually broken.

Phil

[Helgrim]

It's only irrelevant if you play fixedly by the rules or in tournies, I'm sure there are also a lot of people that play open, friendly games, where new units are rules are allowed to tried out.

variety is the spice of life!

[phillyt]

And there are 14 armies.  Ta da!

Phil

[Grutch]

I'm thinking about setting up an entire subforum for the discussion of the new Empire book.  It will be dissected into segments so that we can stay focused and help organize the ideas that are presented.  

It will likely be broken down by army book ranks.  Lords + Heroes, Special Characters, Core, Special, Rare, War Machines, Special Empire Army Abilities, magic items, banners, and a major discussion panel where everything is tied together.

All of the threads i've read that haven't devolved into nonsense have the same problem of "too many chefs".  Everyone has their own idea of how things should be. And even if they agree on the general idea, the details are all different (there's at least 4 versions of pikemen rules in this thread alone). Is this subfourm really going to be any different?

That's the purpose of the Master Chef... err designer.   

Let the cooks make their flambes, pork loins, and bundt cakes, its up to the master chef to toss out what isnt worthy of consumption.  If you post an idea, make sure you're thinking it through,  make a good case for why you think it should be the way you suggest.

-Grutch

[bluetwyst]

The subforum could work like this: All threads have to contain one (1) unit or magical item submission. The thread then will discuss that unit until it is agreed that it is either bad or good. If it is a good idea, a moderator may add a [Good] tag to it and take it down into a sticky thread at the top. If it isn't it will become locked until better ideas rise above it. Then, when there are enough good suggestions (even multiple different ways of the same unit being set up (two different swordsmen point/statline ideas for example)), the subforum moves onto phase two: Book construction. It is at this point that the very best ideas are selected and formed into a coherent, uniformely formatted section. Many different things should be discussed at this phase (changing detachment rules, magic items, special characters).

Just an idea, feel free to shoot me down on this.

[vesrian]

I guess i'm just not a big fan of design by committee, which is what this sounds like.

As i understand it (and i may be wrong), GW has one or two people come up with the rules for a specific army and then revises them as needed from there. That seems to work for them which is why a suggested having multiple people here individually submit a completed army list.

[wissenlander]

That's a lot of time and effort to put in, and will scare off a lot of folks.  Every army list would have different components, as well, and will have a wide variety of strengths and weaknesses.  Then, there would have to be a discussion about which army list was the best.

It seems like the same type of concept, just a lot more work for the individual writing up the list instead of unit.

[Syn Ace]

Design by committee hardly ever works. Unless you boot the incompetents, you get a million different view points (and a lot of them wrong). If you don't have a strong leader with vision who says "yes" or "no", you get a big sprawling mess of compromises--and everybody wants to be the leader. Everybody wants to contribute and the more incompetent, the more they want to be involved. The worst is when you get a leader who is decisive, yet hasn't a clue and leads the whole project into a swamp.

While it can be fun to think of new rules just for the hell of it, I'm leaving the actual rules writing up to GW.

Rant over (sorry, just had a 3 hour meeting with a committee and I want to shoot myself).