Topic: fighting vc-need tactica.. please?

[patsy02]

ok im having a 4000pts battle vs vampire counts on tuesday, and well ,im playing against the best player in norway(atleast he won best title 3 or so times) so im in dire need of tactics... list:

EMPIRE: 4000pts

LORDS:
Elector count on griffon w great weapon, the white cloak, armour of meteoric iron: 346

Templar grand master w sword of power & holy relic: 245

Lv4 Wizard lord w hexstaff, armour of tarnus, dispel scroll & mounted on pegasus: 375

HEROES:
Warrior priest w great weapon, heavy armour & sigil of sigmar: 123

Warrior priest w additional hand weapon, heavy armour & talisman of protection: 118

Lv2 Battle wizard w 2 dispel scroll: 145

Lv2 battle wizard w 2 dispel scroll: 145

Bsb Captain w banner of sigismund & full plate armour: 143

CORE:
24 swordsmen w full command, banner of valour & one 8 man spearmen detachment: 281

24 halberdiers w full command & one 8 man spearmen detachment: 217

12 handgunners w marksman w repeater handgun: 116

12 handgunners w marksman w repeater handgun: 116

10 huntsmen w marksman: 106

10 crossbowmen w marksman: 85

11 inner circle knights w full command & standard of arcane warding: 358

SPECIAL:
21 greatswords w full command & griffon standard: 320

mortar: 75

mortar: 75

mortar: 75

great cannon: 100

RARE:
Helblaster: 125

Conqueror steam tank: 300

TOTAL: 4001pts

Dispel dice: 7

Power dice: 11+d3

Dispel scrolls: 5

im planning on putting the bsb in the halberdiers reg. the warrior priest w add. hand weapon in the swordsmen reg. and the great w. warrior priest in the greatswords. im making him come to me and dispel scroll and mortar him on his way and as they are really slow(may not march unless within 8" of the general right?) im hoping that he will be few in numbers when he gets there so i can pummel him in cc, and while im in it i might as well soulfire him to death  

[Vincent of Vega]

Im no expert, but:

You must take flagellants agasint VC's they are the only unit in the Empire army that are totally dependable against the undead, ie they wont run away.

Drop some dispels and take the Rod of Power, I've found that to be worth its weight in gold.

I wouldn't bother with a steam tank myself, the Terror factor will be almost worthless and the one thing in the VC army that you will be able to hit and crush (skeletons/zombies) he'll be raising in large numbers.

Take more of the missile troops as detachments and set up for some counter charges. CR is what you must depend on.

I'd take Spearmen instead of Halberdiers, more hits at S3 is more important than less S4's imo.

No pistoliers?  crucial for march blocking.

I'd be sorely tempted to go for a Captain on a pegasus to go Necro hunting ( don't even think about taking on a Count)

Some disposable units of Free Company to screw up his charges are good, and get used to the idea that they are going to die.

Dictate the pace with march blocking and whatever you do make sure you target the units he can't raise again first! Dire Wolves, Fell Bats and Black Knights and hope you can control his magic.

[Feanor]

If possible I would mount the Warrior Priest with the Knights as hatred is just too useful not to be used on good troops. I am wondering what your general is ie. Templar Master or Elector Count because you currently have very little defense for the myriad fear and terror test coming your way. Drop the talisman of protectio it is not worthwhile. Good luck

[Boris Todbringer]

I don't see enough bread and butter units. Even at 2000 points, I field more core than you. Take 5 blocks of infantry, at least!

[Atchman]

Icon of Magnus!  

Read "Beating the Bat" in the War Room!

  I played with my VC army today!  Crushing victory against the Lizards!  You have got to reduce their necromancers very fast.  Pegasus on a suicide charge works pretty well.  Pistoliers and all attacks directed at necro also works.  The Pegasus makes them put them in a unit, just be ready to have a suicide unit to kill them off.  Hochlands will force them back out of their units, so the Pegasus again get them.  Got to put them in a position where stuff doesn't go their way, cause confusion.  If that doesn't work, unit of great swords lead by WP with Icon of Magnus,BIG unit of spearmen with EC and Griffon Standard, and a unit of Flagellants! Detachments out the rear end to take charges and divert and such...read the detachments article by Jewels.  Read battle reports by Vincient of Vega on this board, Yahoo Empire board, and WPS board.

Today!  My VC army rocked!  Flank charge, rear charge, magic charge, you name it, a VC army can do it.  

(The guyz have given up playing against my Empire, so they thought they can crush my Orcs or my VC, which are much harder armies to play against.  My Empire had already beaten the Lizard army once.  Battle Captain killed an entire unit of Terradons, a Skink Priest, after he lost his mount he tied up a unit of Saurus warriors killing 6 over two turns!  Finally ran, after the flagellants got beat up, but ralllied denying victory points! What a versatile figure! Somone should write a tactica on how to use him, today would have been a master class.)

[rufus sparkfire]

Lv4 Wizard lord w hexstaff, armour of tarnus, dispel scroll & mounted on pegasus: 375

That is 115 points in magic items! (55 + 35 +25)

Besides this, you seem a bit too character heavy - 40% of the total. I would take a lot more core infantry instead, and a big unit of flagellants.

Also, spearmen as detatchments

As for the VC being slow, this is not quite true...they march within 12" of the general, or 18" if von Carstein. Banshees always march. Fell bats, black knights and wolves are pretty speedy. And don't forget the movement spell.

Finally, staying put in your deployment zone is risky against a fear-causing army, since any units that flee will likely run straight off the table before you get any chance to rally them!

[Albrecht von Hinkel]

Where do you live patsy02?

[patsy02]

ahem... yea... well.. *crawls away* sorry about the wizard, ill fix that, and im from norway, kristiansand new list:

LORDS:
Elector count on griffon w great weapon, the white cloak, armour of meteoric iron: 346

Templar grand master w hammer of judgement & holy relic: 240

Lv4 Wizard lord w hexstaff, armour of tarnus: 300

HEROES:
Warrior priest w great weapon, heavy armour & sigil of sigmar: 123

Warrior priest w additional hand weapon, heavy armour & talisman of protection: 118

Lv2 Battle wizard w 2 dispel scroll: 145

Lv2 battle wizard w 2 dispel scroll: 145

captain on pegasus w full plate armour, shield & sword of might: 130

CORE:
24 swordsmen w full command, banner of valour & one 8 man halberdier det: 281

24 halberdiers w full command & one 8 man halberdier det: 217

12 handgunners w marksman w repeater handgun: 116

12 handgunners w marksman w repeater handgun: 116

10 huntsmen w marksman: 106

10 crossbowmen w marksman: 85

11 inner circle knights w full command & standard of arcane warding: 358

SPECIAL:
20 greatswords w full command & griffon standard: 308

mortar: 75

mortar: 75

mortar: 75

great cannon: 100

great cannon: 100

RARE:
Helblaster: 125

Conqueror steam tank: 300

TOTAL: 3994pts

Dispel dice: 7

Power dice: 11+d3

Dispel scrolls: 4

and ive only got 9 flagellant models so i barely use them...

[IH8Skaven]

It's a shame about the flagellents, they'd work much better against this army than the ST I believe.  

Do watch Atchman and Vincent say.  They both have some great ideas.  The captain on peggy doing suicide charges into units holding Necromancers is very effective.  

I would consider going with magic lores that cast cheap, such as Light, metal, beast (oxen stands can come in real handy here,) and heavens.  Heavens isn't all that cheap, but as we all Empire Generals know, 2nd Sign has bailed our asses out too many times to count.  The reason I'd go with the easily cast lores is to the certain formidable VC magic defense you're going up against.  Don't make his job easier by you failing to cast your spells.

[Atchman]

Light lore generally isn't that good, but a couple of spells help against VCs.  Two spells are really good, Gaurdian of Light is the best.  Burning gaze isn't bad against ghouls or wolves.  The other spells aren't to good since a VC is almost always WS2 already!

The Lore of Beast looks like it would be good, especially if the VC player has the prefunctory units of Black Knights.  Charging the a VC player with the Wolf Hunts is very good, because you don't have to take a fear check.  

Shadow Lore isn't horrible except for one spell.  

Life is always useful, always and easy to cast.

Probably Celestial, Beasts, then Fire, after that it is a toss up, though a Level 4 Shadow wizzie isn't bad if he has Unseen Lurker, Shades of Death, or Unseen Lurker.

[Calimehter]

I had a couple of good games against the undead with my mercs a while back.  Pikemen can solve just about any Undead regiment head-on.  8)

I don't know what to tell you about troops, since I don't play at the 4000 point level very often and I don't know what model limitations you are working under, but there's 3 magic items that I know of that you should try to take if you can squeeze them in:

Icon of Magnus - nothing like reducing the role of psychology vs. Undead

Sword of Fate and/or Van Horstman's Speculum - I virtually crippled a VC army once by declaring his general as the target of the Sword of Fate, since it forced him to keep his Vampire out of the front lines and allowed me to slaughter his leaderless troops (Undead really need their characters to fight well).  VHS will do the same thing, I would imagine.

Hope that helps!

[IH8Skaven]

Don't be too hard on the Lore of Light vs. VC, Atchman.  There is something VERY satisfying about making a Vampire Count/Thrall WS 1.    The magic missile is also flaming, and that could prove useful against Strigoi and VonCastein.  Granted, it's not the best Lore to bring from an effective standpoint, but it casts cheap.  You need to get your spells off to get through the VC def.  Comet of Cassandora is great, but how often do you truly get it casted (before VC dispell it.)  Once a game?  Twice at the most?  

Life is great too.  Cheap casting lore, but you just pray not to get stuck with the RainLord spell playing the VC.  What an utter waste.  

If I knew I was fighting against regeneration, I would be compelled to bring Metal.  A 3+ magic 'flaming' missile is too good to pass up.  If I never got a shot at his VC, I'd be okay, because there are plenty of other good spells in the lore to find uses for.

We're on the same page when it comes to the Beast Lore.  Good lore against the undead.  

I do love Heavens magic, but I when I bring actual wizards and not caddies, it's fun to give other lores a chance.

[Atchman]

Sword of Fate and/or Van Horstman's Speculum - I virtually crippled a VC army once by declaring his general as the target of the Sword of Fate, since it forced him to keep his Vampire out of the front lines and allowed me to slaughter his leaderless troops (Undead really need their characters to fight well). VHS will do the same thing, I would imagine

.

Could you see the look on a Vampire Counts face when a Battle Captain on Pegasus charges him, and reveals the Sword of Fate!  

That's like what a 150-160 pt character taking out probably a 300 point character!  Three swings from the Sword of Fate is not a nice thing, but it isn't assured either.  Hopefully, you have some Second Sign Dice, lying around to help!

[Calimehter]

Well, the SoF must nominate a "target of fate" at the beginning of the game, so there would never be a nasty surprise.

This isn't always a bad thing, though.  After announcing it, I went through the nasty abilities of the sword (not mentioning too much that I only had 3 attacks), then watched with amusement as my opponent's jaw dropped and then watched him move his vampire as far away from my SoF character (leading a block of knights) as fast as possible.  Nothing beats making a VC player fail a "player psychology" test before the game even begins.  

I dunno if it would work all the time . . . a kitted out Vamp Lord might do well against it.   But still, I can't imagine there are that many VC players who are willing to take that kind of risk early in the game with their general unless they have a particularly useful combo of gifts/items (such as striking first).

And if you're worried, you could always give it to a Templar Grand Master and for the extra attack and a ward save.