Topic: Hatred, Hammer of Sigmar and Armour of Damnation

[Warlord]

"If two re-roll items or abilities conflict, they both cancel each other out. All other affects of the item / ability are unchanged."

Two items conflict all the time, and rarely are their abilities so oppposite as to clearly be able to say they cancel out.  The ruling for this is clear and doesn't require anymore rule additions to make them more understandable.

In bold.

[phillyt]

Still, rarely is it clean enough to take the step of just ignoring both.  Both can apply their abilities without issue, it is just the order that is in question.  The order has been ruled on, end of issue.

Phil

[BingoBongoEmpire]

Out of curiosity, whereabouts is this ruling? I'm probably missing it somewhere obvious, I've looked on the GW website and Direwolf but can't see anything about it. I'd like to have a shufty though. If it's in the main rulebook I'll facepalm myself, but I'm guessing due to no-one having said so thus far that it isn't.

[phillyt]

I don't recall.  Wasn't it in a GT ruling and has since been the norm? 

Not like it does me any good, they took the AoD from beastmen so its all gone.

Phil

[Crimsonsphinx]

I am pretty sure it was FAQed to be what Philly said.  Thats how I have always played it as well.

Roll to hit.
Reroll misses.
Then reroll all the collective hits.
Wound, save, ward etc

[BingoBongoEmpire]

You're probably right, it's just I'm wanting to find the document so I can make sure I'm up to date. The problem is I can't find any mention in the latest Dark Elf/Empire/main rulebook FAQs on either Direwolf or GW so it's proving elusive.

[phillyt]

I really think it was in one of those quick GT PDF errata documents prior to the new errata lists.  That they never carried into the real faqs either means they don't think it is a problem or they expected the Direwolf guys to take care of it...

Phil

[Robert Klemic]

Ok.  I'm going to pull up the EXACT text from the High Elf Faq with respect to the Pendant vs the Kraggi Reroll for Thorek which should be enough precedent to make it that you essentially reroll ALL dice for Armor of Damnation vs Hatred exactly once. IE the hatred makes you reroll all the misses and those misses that become hits stay hits,  and rerolls caused by AoD that become misses stay misses.

Q:  How do the Pendant of Vengeance and Thorek Ironbrow's Kraggi re-rolls interact?

A:  Remember, a dice can only be re-rolled once, so the two never interact at all.

In other words,  the Pendant forces you to re-roll successfull rolls and Kraggi allows you to re-roll a failed roll,  but in both cases you cannot then re-roll the second result. 

So effectively Hatred/Hammer of Sigmar and the Armor of Damnation do truly effectively just cancel each other out and you're effectively just rolling to hit normally without the re-rolls.

[phillyt]

Which is good, but still not an answer given GW's inconsistency with their reroll rule.  Yes, they do allow dice to be rerolled twice if the effect is from two different sources and not optional.  They are stupid like that.

Phil

[Crimsonsphinx]

I have had a look and I am unable to find any 7th edition evidence of the armour of damnation and hatred conflict.  I am sure it was in 6th edition FAQ though.

[Elieress]

it was in the official 6. ed FAQ.

and it was :
roll to hit.
reroll misses
reroll all hits (including rerolls).

I am happy that they removed the ruling though.. keep it simple is better.. no reroll of rerolls.

[phillyt]

Thank you for finding the errata.

I cannot fathom what is so confusing about no rerolling rerolls.  The rule is meant to prevent a single player from repeatedly rerolling the same set of dice to get a favorable result.  It was not meant to prevent two players from using two different methods to force a reroll.  IN both rule and intent, the two items are not an issue.  GW needs to correct the definition of their inconsistant no reroll rule.

Phil

[Crimsonsphinx]

It still makes sense that errata.  It does to me anyway.  The alternative, and very bizare method, would be to roll the dice, then pick the whole lot up and reroll.

[Allin]

 Q. What is the effect of an item like the Armor of Damnation (re-roll
successful hits) on Daith's Reaper (re-roll misses)?

A. Remember, you may never re-roll a re-roll. It is pretty clear then
that one item allows you to re-roll misses, while the other forces you
to re-roll hits. In either case, the second result stands, as it cannot
be re-rolled. (In summary, in such a case you will re-roll all the dice
and accept the second result).
S. Official Wood Elves FAQ

[Lord Etharion]

It isn't really that bizarre, it's effectively the same as the effects cancelling each other out, except that since they've already been re-rolled another effect can't make them re-roll again.