Topic: ... On Grey & White (from another thread) ...

[GamesPoet]

This thread has been started inorder to not hijack another posters thread regarding a sub topic that might go on for a bit ...

But I do actually have some very good reasons for not liking Wissenland's grey and white color scheme.  While my main ares of expertise is kitbashing and conversion, I'm not a horrible painter (just mediocre  ), and I do have a background in art and graphic design so I know a thing or three about graphic design and color theory... I'm not just talking out of my ass here (although I do talk out of my ass from time to time, so I can understand the confusion  ).

You strike me as being honest with your views, yet at the same time rather harmless.  Some folks will take this the wrong way though.  

So why do I dislike the grey and white scheme?  Well first of all it has no actual color (grey, white, and black are not real colors, just tones).  Now white can be wonderful for setting off another color like blue, red, purple, or green.  It also makes for a dramatic contrast with black.  But it needs a little color to work properly (and by color I'm talking about the 7 basic colors of the rainbow, or variations thereof).  Here's a good example: Ostlands black and white would be a little boring without the red accents.  The red adds a little "soul" to the harsh black and white.  The nazi's also used black/white/red to powerful effect (this was no accident either.. they were very image conscious).

How do you mean that black, white, and grey are tones, as opposed to colors?

Grey is more difficult to work with.  It's a very difficult color to paint well for one thing.  Also, because it's halfway between black and white it provides less contrast than black or white when mixed with other colors.  Now you can go with a dark grey and use it like black, or you can go with a light grey and use it instead of white and get good contrast with another color.  You can also mix grey with another color to get tones of another color.  For example you can use different blue-greys for a nice shadow mage.

Does this include the grey and blue color scheme that was used for Confederate soldiers during the American Civil War?

However, white and grey really do not compliment each other well.  The gray doesn't provide much contrast with the white, and because there is no actual color, there is little of visual interest.  You'll notice that grey and white does not appear very often in advertising, art, heraldry or sports teams.  Why?  Because it's boring.  If you do find gray and white used in advertising, chances are it's for a company that wants to emphasize sterility and blandness (and yes, there are times when this is a desirable thing).

Maybe this is the point.  That way it provides an opportunity for someone to make other things on the units standout?

For the life of me, I can't figure out why GW thought gray and white would be a good color scheme.  It's not just monochromatic (one color in various shades), it's completely non-chromatic (no color whatsoever) AND it's low contrast to boot.  The fact that grey is one of the most difficult colors to highlight properly just makes it worse.

It would be one thing if I'd seen it done well by a master painter.  But I can't say that I've ever seen a really spectacular Wissenland army in white dwarf, or anywhere else for that matter.  There are a couple of people working on Wissenland armies around here, but none of them really grab me, despite the fact that they are all painted to a decent standard.

Maybe it would help if you all told me why you liked the white and grey so much.  You won't change my mind, but I might at least understand your point of view, instead of being completely mystified by it.  

I actually like the paint scheme, yet I might use more of a darker grey if I was doing a Wissenland Army.  When I was looking at what army to model I wanted something where I liked the fluff.  I considered Wissenland, yet everything seemed to gel better with Averland for me at the time.

[scarletsquig]

I also have a background in graphic design.

How do you mean that black, white, and grey are tones, as opposed to colors?

Short answer - a black and white photograph has only tones, no colour. Grey and white represent variations in dark/light with no colour added to them at all.

Long answer - Tone is a measure of how light/dark something is. Hue is a measure of actual colour - whether the colour of the light being reflected is closer to the infra-red or ultra-violet end of the spectrum. Tones (white, black, plain grey) are colors without any particular hue.. they absorb and reflect all the different hues at the same time, resulting in various shades of white light without any particular hue.

Or, for a more practical example, go open ms paint, go to colours> edit colours. The colour picking crosshairs change the type of hue (by moving left to right) and the amount of hue (up and down). the bar at the side changes the tone by making the hue lighter or darker. Move the crosshairs to the bottom of the colour field and you are left with only tone... a colour with zero hue that ranges from black to white.

I think grey and white are fine, just look at anything made by apple. A combination of 2 different dark colours would look a lot worse... altdorf and hochland are not good schemes.

Only thing is, it's a bit cold, so I would pick out any details in a warm dark brown. Some alternative colours for the metals like brass or tin instead of silver might help provide contrast as well.

[GamesPoet]

Thanks for the info.

...

I think grey and white are fine, just look at anything made by apple. A combination of 2 different dark colours would look a lot worse... altdorf and hochland are not good schemes.

I feeling like if one of the colors isn't as dark as the other then it could look better, and since red is such a bold color, if I was working with the Altdorf color scheme, then I might user a lighter shade of blue with the red and white of Altdorf.  Although I'm not sure what I'd do with Hochland's red and green.

Only thing is, it's a bit cold, so I would pick out any details in a warm dark brown. Some alternative colours for the metals like brass or tin instead of silver might help provide contrast as well.

If I recall correctly, the brown idea is something that WHL_Soth seemed to use when painting some of Wissenlander's crossbowmen.  I like the idea of lessening the amount of silver as well.

[scarletsquig]

Thanks for the info.

...

I think grey and white are fine, just look at anything made by apple. A combination of 2 different dark colours would look a lot worse... altdorf and hochland are not good schemes.

I feeling like if one of the colors isn't as dark as the other then it could look better, and since red is such a bold color, if I was working with the Altdorf color scheme, then I might user a lighter shade of blue with the red and white of Altdorf

That would work alright.. red and light blue go together fine.. just look at GW's kislevite colour scheme. As long as there's some sort of contrast with either the colour intensity (bright/dull) or the tone (dark/light) it works.

[Pistol Pete]

That would work alright.. red and light blue go together fine.. just look at GW's kislevite colour scheme. As long as there's some sort of contrast with either the colour intensity (bright/dull) or the tone (dark/light) it works.

Yeah, the Kislev scheme is quite lovely.  They use a lighter grey/blue and a nice vibrant red.

I think grey and white are fine, just look at anything made by apple.

The electronics industry is one of those places where clean and sterile is an ideal look.  But you'll also note that apple loves pretty candy-like colors, especially on thier I-macs and I-pods.

A combination of 2 different dark colours would look a lot worse... altdorf and hochland are not good schemes.

Hochland is a good scheme if done right.  However it's difficult to do right.  My first empire troops were painted in a red/green scheme and they looked godawful.  However, if you look in the old empire book under the "state colors" section you'll see a rather nice looking Hochland handgunner.  His green is dark and his red is bright which gives him a nice contrast. 

The Altdorf trooper doesn't look as good though because he doesn't have enough contrast between the red and blue.  This is why, on my Altdorfers, I'm going with blue and white as the primary colors, with red as an accent color for ribbons and tassles and such.

If you want a good example of a dark color scheme that doesn't work particularly well, the Sylvanian colors (purple and red) are probably the best example.  I also think they're a bit too close on the color wheel to stand out from each other. 

It's also worth noting that the old "State Colors" section with painted miniatures is much better than in the new book where you've got coloring-book pictures of the troopers.  It gives you a better idea of how to actually paint to the minis to get the color schemes to work.

And, wonder of wonders, there are actually some Wissenlanders there in the corner that don't look half bad.  It helps that the old spearman uniforms have puffy sleeves to add some texture and shadow to the model.  This'll be hardfer to pull off on the new models, with thier larger flat areas.  I still think it's a poor scheme, but the Eavy Metal team did manage to make it look respectable. 

[minionboy]

I've got a degree in graphic design and I happen to think that Altdorf is a great color scheme.  It may not be a harmonious scheme, but that doesn't make it bad.  Also, most Altdorf I've seen has bright metals and black shields which make for strong contrasts against the red and blue livery.

Really, it's all a matter of preference, degree's don't mean anything when it comes to what looks good to you and what doesn't.