Topic: HW+Shield Imperial Guard [T9A]

[Konrad von Richtmark]

Or Reiksguard Foot Knights for ye grognards.

So yeah, fielding Imperial Guard with sword and shield in smaller units might be emerging as a new thing in T9A Empire meta, and the idea has caught my interest too. Now, how would one make such a thing?

I think the current GW plastic greatswords aren't bad at all:


They are, however, imo slightly too sparsely armoured considering that they're supposed to have full plate armour. Thus, any kitbashes should preferably not further down-armour them, so 6e swordsman arms I'd prefer not to use. Maybe the shield arm could do as unarmoured since it's supposed to be protected by a shield, but the sword-arm is a different matter.

I'm currently thinking of two armoured sword arm bitz that should work well: The sword arm from the 6e command sprue, and the unit champion's sword from the 6e knightly orders box. The command sprue also has a matching armoured left arm. On the knightly order side, left arms aren't so abundant, but anyone who has made White Wolf knights (which have their own arm bitz) should have some to spare.

Other than that, maybe armoured knight arms holding lances upright could be converted by cutting off the lance and putting in a suitable sword in its place?

What else?

[mr chumley warner]

Yes indeed !

This is the most pressing issue , and not being talked about enough... 9th Age gives us back Reiksguard Foot knights, hence I bought 40 of WHite Knights sculpts

[Konrad von Richtmark]

Necroing this since it recently became relevant in the light of recent gaming experience.

I wonder, would it work to kitbash GW plastics with Perry WR 50 Foot Knights 1450-1500?? From the miniatures size comparison here, it seems like the Perry guys are at worst only very slightly shorter, but possibly significantly less bulky. The need for kitbash follows primarily, I'd say, from that Perry kit being mostly (historically enough) two-handed weapons and only a few swords.

It might work to use pairs of GW arms for the purpose. That'd somewhat mitigate the difference in bulk, since both arms would be upbulked rather than just one. There are, though, two other issues I could see with that. First, there aren't really that many different plate-armoured Empire arms. Second, weapon scale? I've heard GW plastics described as "heroic scale", with deliberately oversized weapons. How true is that? On the other hand, if I'm going to kitbash, I could just as well entirely replace the weapons that come with the Perry kit. Everyone should have a decent surplus stockpile of sword bitz anyway. That way, the Perry arms that are meant to hold two-handed could maybe be salvaged through converting.

The good thing about the Perry kit is that it's supposed to be a whole 38 models in a box that just costs £20. Cheap enough to tolerate a significant potential loss from part of the kit being unusable for the purpose.

Any ideas or thoughts?

[Zygmund]

This is something that has been nagging on me too.

Luckily, I do have 30 of the 90's GW and Marauder Reiksguard. And the White Knight models are great for the purpose. The recent Reichsguard kickstarter, also referred to on this site, had IIRC 5 different fully armored Sword+Board fighters. I think you will eventually be able to buy that set from their web storefront. They are slender, but their height matches the 'heroic' scale.

IMHO, mixing the Perry plastics with GW models & bits doesn't give very good-looking results. You recognize immediately the bulkiness of the GW bits and the slenderness and also shortness of the Perry parts. Also GW weapons are 1.5 x or even 2 x the size of historical 28mm weapons, so use that Perry sword for a dagger maybe... Some will disagree, but I think both are best left for their own units.

One thing that isn't mentioned above is getting the extra armour from the 5th ed Empire Soldiers box (lobster style armour for legs), and the pair of armoured arms from the Empire Militia/Free Company box. And putting them on either the Empire Soldiers or the current State Troops. Or using the Knight torsos with any separate Empire legs. Actually, there are one or two State Troop bodies that have as much leg armour as many of the current Greatsword bodies, and one (intended for the Champion?) even has a very ornamented breastplate. I've used these to kitbash extra Greatswords, with mainly Knight arms.

But that doesn't give much variety. And the bits have become quite hard to get these days.

-Z

[Konrad von Richtmark]

If that's the case, maybe a kitbash should be restricted to using GW swords and shields on Perry bodies? If every sword is replaced, there won't be a heroic weapon scale issue.

[steveb]

It is all fantasy so you can do whatever you like. I personally like the Perry figures, but I do not mix them in with my GW/Marauder/Grenadier/etc. They are reality scaled, not fantasy scaled. If the Perry and GW figures were enlarged to actual 6 foot size the GW figure would be grossly out of proportion, while the Perry figure would look almost perfect.
Also I would note that you do not see any of the long time gamers/painters posting conversions of Perry figures using GW parts.  Now you do see a few units of pure Perry mixed in with GW units but that is a different matter.
Just saying, but again it is fantasy and you are free to do whatever you please and to heck with any nay-sayers.  steveb

[Konrad von Richtmark]

I just ordered one box of the Perry WR 50 Foot Knights. Cheap enough that the risk involved is acceptable. Looking at the miniatures comparison in the forum sticky here, I'm not at all convinced there's a proportion problem, not as long as any GW-Perry kitbash is done sensibly. I'll post results here when I have something to show, with model-to-model comparisons.

[Padre]

I have added GW arms and swords to Perry before:

[Konrad von Richtmark]

Perry box just arrived in the mail. I will be posting some comparison pics component by component when I get the time.

[Konrad von Richtmark]

No comparison pics yet, but some observations. The box has six copies of the basic sprue with six bodies, and a lone little "command" sprue with two bodies, including a standard pole and, as an added gimmick, the possibility to make Richard III, much as he is depicted on the box. Thus, a whole 38 models.

The basic sprue has, as far as I can count, 12 different pairs of weapon arms. That should give significant choice in what to use as a basis for conversion, and I already spotted a couple ways how you could use two-handed weapon arms as sword and shield arms. Heads are 10 per sprue, again offering variety that isn't as necessary, but very welcome. The six bodies come legs and torso in one piece, which is slightly limting but no big deal. What I didn't know and I didn't count on is that two of the six torsos have heraldic overcoats covering torso and groin, and four of the weapon arm pairs have matching overcoat-covered shoulders. They don't look bad at all, but I was thinking of a more cold steel look, much like the 6th edition greatswords. Furthermore, I don't really like the poses of those two bodies (one is standing still, the other is leaning way too far forward), so I actually think I'll skip these torsos for now and just use the steeled ones. That still gives me 24 bodies, with twice the weapon arm pairs, for a box. The two command group bodies have overcoats too, but they look suitably dynamic and advancing, so I'd use them for standard bearer and musician (just need to find an instrument from GW plastics).

The big question then, how do they scale with GW? My initial impression is that in terms of bulk, they're quite comparable to 6th edition greatswords, which would probably be the closest comparable miniatures. The most notable discrepancy is (as was expected) the weapons, but also the hands. I was anyway thinking of using GW weapons on these, but might be I'd have to include the hand holding the weapon. Only that most GW hands holding weapons are naked, not gauntleted. How hard might it be to greenstuff naked hands into gauntlets?

[Zak]

these guys will always be my favorite

[steveb]

Amen brother Zak! steveb

[Konrad von Richtmark]

Alright, now for the bit by bit scale comparison. Let the pictures do most of the talking.

Perry torsos (below) and unarmoured GW Empire torsos (above):



The same Perry torsos (below) and armoured GW Empire torsos (above):



Side view of Perry heads (bottom row), GW Empire state troop heads (middle) and GW knight helmets (top):



Perry and GW weapon arms:



Impression so far is that compared to most Empire plastics, Perry is just slightly smaller, so little that an all-Perry unit shouldn't stand out in an army, with the possible exception of the weapons (though there too, the difference seems mostly to be one of heft, not so much length). However, Empire plate-armoured heads and arms are quite a bit bulkier, to the extent that they differ significantly from less-armoured Empire bitz too. It's like Empire plate armour thickness is measured in centimetres, rather than millimetres. Have to justify that 4+ save somehow, I suppose. Somehow, I never noticed that discrepancy between the knights and the rest before.

For now, I'm of a mind to go ahead and make a unit of Perry sword and board Imperial Guard, converted to use GW swords and shields. Better keep the kitbash to a minimum though, especially with the excessively bulky GW Empire plate armour.

[Konrad von Richtmark]

Now for some actual miniatures. I built five Perry guys for trial purposes, converting in GW swords and adding 6e Reiksguard shields, and did a little bit of cutting and greenstuffing to get some of the left arms in suitable shield poses. Shields are so far attached with blu-tack, as I intend to coat them white and attach them after having painted the guys, who will largely be drybrushed steel on black undercoat.



edit: re-uploaded on Imgur

[Konrad von Richtmark]

Now for some size and bulk comparison pics.





I like them so far. I don't think they stand out to their disadvantage, not even when put adjacent to GW miniatures. Frankly, in a mixed unit, I think they'd pass for the natural variation in human body sizes and shapes.

Some further observations on the Perry figs. The detail of the armour is way beyond most GW stuff. The fluting on large rounded surfaces, such as pauldrons, gives them a distinctly Gothic look, something I approve very much. A slight downside though is that the sprue comes with matching pairs of left and right arms, with the same armour design on both. Thus, if mixing the bitz for maximum variety, some guys end up with odd pairs of arm armour. Not sure how noticeable this is though, all the five guys I made so far use matching arms (though bent and used very differently from their intended purposes).

[Rogers Kul]

I like them so far. I don't think they stand out to their disadvantage, not even when put adjacent to GW miniatures. Frankly, in a mixed unit, I think they'd pass for the natural variation in human body sizes and shapes.

Agree. They'll do their job.

[Warlord]

From your pictures, I agree, the look appropriate next to the 6th ed metal greatswords.
Interested to see what the finish product looks like.

[White Knight]

I guess it will also depend what GW figures you put them next to. They work well alongside the 6th metal greatswords but those stand out a bit among other period GW as tall and slim themselves. At the end of they day though, the only test that matters is how they look to your eye. 

[Naitsabes]

I guess it will also depend what GW figures you put them next to. They work well alongside the 6th metal greatswords but those stand out a bit among other period GW as tall and slim themselves. At the end of they day though, the only test that matters is how they look to your eye. 

This, all of it.

Now, paint job and having ranks upon ranks tend to help mesh things together as well. At the moment I am skeptical the perry historicals fit the bill but this may change as you dress them up.

[Konrad von Richtmark]

As I finished converting the crossbowmen but have not yet received the order of magnetic bases they're going on, I resumed this. Fifteen guys have been made now, all of them from the Perry foot knights with GW swords, shields and the banner. A quick WIP camera phone picture:

[GamesPoet]

They seem to look ok.

[Konrad von Richtmark]

19 guys converted including the full command group. 6 more to go.

[Rogers Kul]

You got it. 

[Konrad von Richtmark]

All 25 guys have been converted. Now, if only that magnetic base order would arrive...

[Konrad von Richtmark]

Magnetic bases are here, and the guys have been ranked up: