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Offline GamesPoet

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Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« on: March 02, 2017, 03:34:19 PM »
Gentlemen of Warhammer-Empire ... back during the days of the Treachery & Greed campaign in 2010, yes it has been that long ago, there were some rules provided for the use of combinations of the wizardry schools for use as part of the army lists created at that time.

I have copies of the awesome army lists created back then, and they make reference to these schools, and they are named as Alchemy, Shaminism, Sorcery, and Theurgy.

Does someone still have records of this as to what two schools each of Imperial Warhammer wizardry made up each of these four categories :icon_question:
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 06:16:22 PM by GamesPoet »
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2017, 04:29:35 PM »
Schools of Magic

Mercenary wizards follow one of the four great magical traditions. Alchemists derive their power from potions, reagents, and mechanical devices. Shamans call forth elemental spirits and totemic animals. Sorcerers make terrible pacts with otherworldly entities. Theurgists implore the gods themselves to intervene in the mortal world.

Instead of picking a spell list in the usual way, spell casters in this army chose one of four schools of magic. They determine which spells they know as follows: for each spell in turn, roll a dice.

Alchemy: 1-3 = lore of fire, 4-6 = lore of metal

Shamanism: 1-3 = lore of beasts, 4-6 = lore of life

Sorcery: 1-3 = lore of shadow, 4-6 = lore of death

Theurgy: 1-3 = lore of heavens, 4-6 = lore of light

Then roll on that spell list to select the spell. No spell may be exchanged for the first spell on the list, even though wizards are usually able to do so. Duplicate spells are still re-rolled.
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2017, 04:50:38 PM »
Excellent!  That is definitely the info I was looking for from the T&G campaign.  Thank you! :icon_biggrin: :::cheers:::
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2017, 06:25:36 PM »
I'm now imagining the fluff for the break up of these schools of magic at some latter date in the history of the Empire.

It could be a pleasant breaking of the different schools' power, but that wouldn't be very much like Warhammer for it to be an amicable solution.

Or perhaps an Imperial decree or Sigamarite demand or combination of the two.

Or some sort of a rebellion!  The powers of fire, beasts, and death combining together to break free of the control being exhibited by the powers of metal, life, and shadow, and although heavens and light attempted to be a mediator of some sort, the effort failed, and instead they were forced to divide themselves into two as well.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 06:27:41 PM by GamesPoet »
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline S.O.F

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign?
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2017, 12:28:06 AM »
I'm now imagining the fluff for the break up of these schools of magic at some latter date in the history of the Empire.

It could be a pleasant breaking of the different schools' power, but that wouldn't be very much like Warhammer for it to be an amicable solution.

Or perhaps an Imperial decree or Sigamarite demand or combination of the two.

Or some sort of a rebellion!  The powers of fire, beasts, and death combining together to break free of the control being exhibited by the powers of metal, life, and shadow, and although heavens and light attempted to be a mediator of some sort, the effort failed, and instead they were forced to divide themselves into two as well.

Being that all the WE campaigns were set pre-reunification, I always assumed this was a fluffy way to use known lores for an era in which there would be no sanctioned magic users in the Empire. So you are right in guessing no amicable solution as any folk displaying such abilities were liable to be cleansed with fire by Witch Hunters.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2017, 10:25:02 AM »
WFRP 1 Realms of Magic p. 12 may be of interest:

However, by the time Teclis set up the eight Imperial Colleges of Magic, humankind had been devising, researching and practising many theories of magic for centuries. The introduction of an official, Imperially sanctioned system of sorcery did not cause these to die off: some were forced underground; others tried to get along with the new colleges and theories; and some preferred to ignore or dismiss the Elven ideas, giving reasons ranging from simple distaste to outright xenophobia or paranoia.

Of the old schools, elementalism in particular still has a strong following and a well-developed body of learning behind it. Zone magic - the manipulation of magical energies to affect the properties of a particular area - has a small but diligent following, and self-taught hedge-wizards
continue to appear in the rural areas of the Old World. None of these schools has a level of power approaching either Colour magic or High Magic: the Elves would say that this is because High Magic is the purest form, but there are human scholars who have their doubts.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign?
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2017, 10:52:04 AM »
Being that all the WE campaigns were set pre-reunification, I always assumed this was a fluffy way to use known lores for an era in which there would be no sanctioned magic users in the Empire. So you are right in guessing no amicable solution as any folk displaying such abilities were liable to be cleansed with fire by Witch Hunters.

Yes, that was the idea. Those four groups are supposed to represent the various traditional forms of magic before the establishment of the colour-based schools, rather than organised schools of their own.
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Offline S.O.F

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2017, 12:59:01 PM »
To further elucidate the point made by Fidelis and draw on the fluff changes from WHFRP one to two, the general idea is that previous to the sanctioned magical knowledge among humans, Old Worlders and the Empire especially was quite limited. Without the teaching of the Elves attempts to harness the full on 'arcane' magics of the various lores, which draw directly from the winds of magic itself, were rare and more often than not led to madness and mutation. Humans had developed various forms of magic that were relatively safe by drawing on magic power latent in objects which is common to earlier human magical traditions, such as the magics of Nehekhara, the Hedge Wise of Belthani tradition and the more powerful Truthsayers of Albion which spring from the same,  or the Ice magics of the Gospodars of Kislev.  Alchemy has the longest tradition in the Old World, in large part since the useful nature at least in that some true 'science' was derived from it and that it went through great pains to suppress and hide its magical influences.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2017, 02:23:36 PM »
I prefer the 1st edition WFRP fluff though, where Middenheim had its own magical college since the distant past.
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2017, 05:17:38 PM »
Quote
Mercenary wizards follow one of the four great magical traditions. Alchemists derive their power from potions, reagents, and mechanical devices. Shamans call forth elemental spirits and totemic animals. Sorcerers make terrible pacts with otherworldly entities. Theurgists implore the gods themselves to intervene in the mortal world.

So did these descriptions essentially come from WFRP :icon_question:

And by the way, I liked the combinations in 2010, and like them now.  I had a wizard character that was of the alchemy tradition, and made a wizard figure using the masked head, flaming staff in left hand, and vessel in right hand.  And finally getting to completing the painting of him.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2017, 05:46:43 PM »
So did these descriptions essentially come from WFRP :icon_question:

Not that I am aware of. WFRP 1 mentions Elementalism, Zone Magic, Illusionism, Ice magic (Kislev), and Alchemy.
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Offline S.O.F

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2017, 03:45:14 AM »
I prefer the 1st edition WFRP fluff though, where Middenheim had its own magical college since the distant past.

I understand completely, WFRP 1 v WFRP 2 is always an issue, but myself for all the insanely stupid parts of 2, which I threw out right away (River of Echoes and such), on a whole I like 2 better. Maybe it is that I know the political situation better with WFB 4's changes but to a point, other than the asinine expanding the lines bullshit, I like humans being so super bad at magic that nothing good came of it until Teclis, and even then it was colored with elf half truths. 
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2017, 11:51:16 AM »
Are there significant differences in the magic system between WFRP 1 & 2 or is it more of a fluff difference regarding the magic?
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2017, 12:36:40 PM »
Quote
Magic

1st edition used a plain Jane spell-point system. Most of the spells were pretty uninspired, and taken right from WFB. In fact, most wizards were called “battle wizards”. There also weren’t very many spells to choose from. You could also be an elementalist, necromancer or diabolist, but their spells were pretty lame too. Necromancers or diabolists also had to worry about becoming insane or corrupted by their magic. Priestly magic was basically the same as wizard’s magic, though they could get a few unique spells. Druids also had their own spell list that had a little more utility outside of combat.

2nd edition adopts a system from a newer version of WFB. Wizards are divided into different colours of magic, each with a different theme. (There are also some “Petty Spells” that don’t involve killing people). If you’re human, you also need to belong to the Imperial College of Magic or risk being sanctioned with extreme prejudice. There are more spells now, but they’re all still pretty much taken right from WFB (fireball and cone templates are provided in the back of the book). Priests have their own spell lists now, but nature magic is absent.

Magic no longer uses spell-points, but instead requires a spell-casting roll, based on your magic attribute. If you fail, you can gain insanity points. If you succeed, you might suffer “Tzeench’s Curse” and gain a mutation or some other unintended side effect. This does add some flavor to the new edition. Hopefully the dangerous of spellcasting will provide an adequate balancing force now that spell points are gone (My group has no spell casters so I haven’t seen this in action yet).

In 1st edition, you could expect to find magic items, though never so frequently as in D&D. Thus, there were rules for enchanted ropes, potions, and magic weapons (about 8 pages worth), which provided a basic but adequate spread). In 2nd edition, magic items are now “beyond rare”. Thus, there are exactly 2 magic items (1/2 a page), which definitely feels inadequate. In both editions, you’re going to want the magic supplement. Hopefully, in the new edition, it won’t take 18 years to get published.

From:https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11242.phtml
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Warlord

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2017, 02:29:33 PM »
2nd edition sounds better except for no magic items?
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2017, 05:15:47 PM »
The magic items are indeed rarer. WFRP 2 Realms of Sorcery added some more, but again less than WFRP1 Realms of Sorcery. 
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Offline S.O.F

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2017, 01:09:14 AM »
2nd edition sounds better except for no magic items?

Limited magic items is also very much part with the theme of how WFRP is set out, from Realms of Sorcery v2:

Quote
In WHFRP magic items are not for sale- there is no "industry" of enchanted items. Each item is unique, with a personalized history and set of powers. To put things into perspective, over the course of a character's lifespan, if he ever gains one magic item, he is singularly lucky. Only the mightiest heroes and champions have morem and of them, almost none have more than three. More than even their rarity, the Colleges of Magic, temples, Imperial Armoury, and the Witch Hunters all take steps to acquire these items, sequestering them away to safeguard the populace from the magic item;s corrupting influence or to add the item to the Empire's arsenal to combat the hordes of Chaos and the marauding bands of Greenskins. And when acquired, characters who reveal the nature of the item in a public way are guaranteed to attract unwanted attention from some of the most powerful people in the Old World.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2017, 04:07:49 AM »
Thats no fun.
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Offline CarolineWellwater

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2017, 04:37:23 AM »
((  Okay... me and my dumb sense of humor.

Fidelis von Sigmaringen

Quote
Sorcerers make terrible pacts with otherworldly entities.

I'm totally seeing this as an "Otherworld Entity" and a Sorcerer sitting across from each other, and the "Otherworld Entity" is completely saying something like, "This is the WORST pact, EVER!  And I've seen some really, bad pacts!  How on earth could you have misspelled your own name!  And... this part of the contract here doesn't even make sense.  Why would I ever agree to watching Felicity re-runs with you for eternity.  You do know there are other channels than the WB, right? What sort of pact is this?"

To which the Sorcerer says, "'Pact'... I thought we were making a contract."

"IT'S THE SAME, DAMN THING!"

...um... yeah.   Me and my dumb sense of humor.

...he...he...he... terrible pacts...

At least it isn't "terrible Packs"... as in "Back-Packs"... um... yeah.  Me and my dumb sense of humor. ))

Offline Warlord

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2017, 04:54:59 AM »
I thought that was actually pretty funny.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2017, 09:21:57 AM »
And I thought it was obvious that I was just quoting the T&G rules...
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign?
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2017, 02:21:24 PM »
Being that all the WE campaigns were set pre-reunification, I always assumed this was a fluffy way to use known lores for an era in which there would be no sanctioned magic users in the Empire. So you are right in guessing no amicable solution as any folk displaying such abilities were liable to be cleansed with fire by Witch Hunters.
Yes, that was the idea. Those four groups are supposed to represent the various traditional forms of magic before the establishment of the colour-based schools, rather than organised schools of their own.
And by the way, that make some sense, cool.  I like the combinations, and the idea that the eight "schools" originally came from these.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2017, 02:45:31 PM »
This is interesting, thank you ...

Quote
Magic

1st edition used a plain Jane spell-point system. Most of the spells were pretty uninspired, and taken right from WFB. In fact, most wizards were called “battle wizards”. There also weren’t very many spells to choose from. You could also be an elementalist, necromancer or diabolist, but their spells were pretty lame too. Necromancers or diabolists also had to worry about becoming insane or corrupted by their magic. Priestly magic was basically the same as wizard’s magic, though they could get a few unique spells. Druids also had their own spell list that had a little more utility outside of combat.

2nd edition adopts a system from a newer version of WFB. Wizards are divided into different colours of magic, each with a different theme. (There are also some “Petty Spells” that don’t involve killing people). If you’re human, you also need to belong to the Imperial College of Magic or risk being sanctioned with extreme prejudice. There are more spells now, but they’re all still pretty much taken right from WFB (fireball and cone templates are provided in the back of the book). Priests have their own spell lists now, but nature magic is absent.

Magic no longer uses spell-points, but instead requires a spell-casting roll, based on your magic attribute. If you fail, you can gain insanity points. If you succeed, you might suffer “Tzeench’s Curse” and gain a mutation or some other unintended side effect. This does add some flavor to the new edition. Hopefully the dangerous of spellcasting will provide an adequate balancing force now that spell points are gone (My group has no spell casters so I haven’t seen this in action yet).

In 1st edition, you could expect to find magic items, though never so frequently as in D&D. Thus, there were rules for enchanted ropes, potions, and magic weapons (about 8 pages worth), which provided a basic but adequate spread). In 2nd edition, magic items are now “beyond rare”. Thus, there are exactly 2 magic items (1/2 a page), which definitely feels inadequate. In both editions, you’re going to want the magic supplement. Hopefully, in the new edition, it won’t take 18 years to get published.

From:https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11242.phtml

And for some reason that link isn't linking so here it is again ...

https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11242.phtml

The rest of what is there is also an interesting read.

I like the idea of their being almost a limited magic approach, yet at the same time when the magic happens it is powerful.  I sort of felt that happening in playing WFB 6th & 7th edition.  I remember thinking that in a way the renaissance inclusion of gunpowder also contributed to my sense of that feeling, in that it was limited yet powerful if it worked, almost like magic.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2017, 02:52:32 PM »
2nd edition sounds better except for no magic items?

Limited magic items is also very much part with the theme of how WFRP is set out, from Realms of Sorcery v2:

Quote
In WHFRP magic items are not for sale- there is no "industry" of enchanted items. Each item is unique, with a personalized history and set of powers. To put things into perspective, over the course of a character's lifespan, if he ever gains one magic item, he is singularly lucky. Only the mightiest heroes and champions have morem and of them, almost none have more than three. More than even their rarity, the Colleges of Magic, temples, Imperial Armoury, and the Witch Hunters all take steps to acquire these items, sequestering them away to safeguard the populace from the magic item;s corrupting influence or to add the item to the Empire's arsenal to combat the hordes of Chaos and the marauding bands of Greenskins. And when acquired, characters who reveal the nature of the item in a public way are guaranteed to attract unwanted attention from some of the most powerful people in the Old World.
And again, this is an example of limited yet powerful, a balance that I like in feel and flavor.  A sense that puts roleplaying and story creation as being of value, and with magic just a potential part, not constantly overpowering, but only occasionally.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Wizard Rules from the T&G Campaign, and Factions?
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2017, 08:11:33 AM »
I agree with the limited yet powerful.

When I was running my RPG using the Pathfinder rules, I limited the magic items, but made them effectively double strength.

Eventually the PC's acquired at least one each, but each one they found/made/acquired felt like it was a part of their character and they treasured them.

I even allowed them to upgrade their items over time, creating quite powerful combinations so that they could build up a particular play style for their character.

I believe they still speak fondly of my campaigns to this day.
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