Topic: The weapons and armour thread

[Zak]

Actually I think it's closer to 36 mil these days. I dabbled in wood working for a bit, loved it. It would be super cool to make a set of wooden Tlingit Armour.

Archery is fun but crossbows is what I like.

[Gankom]

@patsy -good advise 😸 how can you go wrong!?

@Captain - that sounds like a very affordable start. I have a 12 th century hand and a half replica I picked up years ago. Always liked it.

@Gankom - really?! My grandfather was a blacksmith and to me it seems like a natural fit. Did you have your own forge? How long would it take to learn it. I’m a natural when it comes to the trades. Can do pretty much anything fairly easily but have never tried that.

I started learning when I was working at a historical site in High School. One of the older workers was a professional blacksmith and I hung out at his place and learned. It was great fun and I ended up building a cheap forge in my backyard. Mostly made things for fun, but pumped out a lot of knives, pokers and 'artsy' stuff. It's not actually as hard as a lot of people think, you just need to get use to certain tricks. Just like with any trade.

If you want a blacksmithing TV show check out Forged in Fire. it's like masterchef but they have to make knives instead of cake.

It's been awhile since I talked to them but I vaguely remember there being a good medieval reenactors group in Ottawa. They did a fair bit of blacksmithing, maybe they have a course or lesson day.

@zak, I'm a big fan of crossbows as well but there's nothing like the feeling of drawing the bow back and making a perfect shot.

[Artobans Ghost]

Just reading through the wiki on libertarian socialism. This is actually how I would like to see things work out. This is not communism as the popular vision of it is.  It’s something actually very different from traditional communism. To me it’s unattainable given the human condition but I really like it’s foundation in the theoretical end. This is along the lines I’d like to see humanity work towards although it has to work with humans and that’s the problem lol. Noam Chomsky I brought up again and just recently I have become a big fan of him. Most everything he says connects with me.
Certainly going to head down that rabbit hole Captain. Thanks for the invite.

[Zak]

Because communism/ socialism  sounds wonderful but when you mix the human element into the mix all hell breaks loose. Power is a very dangerous thing and total power ( unchecked) is corrupting period. Communism comes at you like a pretty girl with flowers, she smiles and offers to give you a kiss but first you have to surrender all your power/choices , because she has a beautiful plan that will benefit everyone, full of happy bunnies, and puppies for all. The fact is and history proves this you never get that power back as you see, in truth,  she is an ugly hag with big sharp pointy teeth!! If you make a big stink like, "Hey girl you lied to me plus damn girl you got ugly"  She throws you in the Gulag or shoots you in the head by her secret attack sheeple..... they always have secret sheeple enforcers.   

[Captain Dob Van Dwi]

@ Artobans Ghost:

I'm glad I found something that that speaks to you mate. I found that many of it's tenets speak to me as well. What do you find most interesting about it? 

@zak:

Dude don't bring the good mood down man. On a side note have you ever taken a look at a channel called Forgotten Weapons on YouTube? It's one of my go to channels.

[Zak]

haha I'm keeping to the topic of the room... No I have not watched that I will check it out. 

[Grutch]

Government does all sorts of fucked up things.  Which government does it worse? 

Mao's Starvation of Millions?
Stalins Gulags?

Can We Attribute the entire massacre of the native Americans to the new US government? 

Lets for the sake of argument put all this aside and take this course anyway. 

Captain's form of libertarian communism leaves me asking some questions. 

Do people own property?
Short of using your rifle to defend your family from others or invaders, who provides police?
Do you have a court system?
Do you own the very gun you hang in your (the common people's) home?

The biggest drawback to communism is about 20% of the people work many times harder than the others and are far more productive. They are ambitious and seek reward for their effort. How do you "reward" these people in your society?

Imagineyou have Commie Libertaria Island and Republi Capitalistica Island nearby.  A skilled doctor in Commie LIbertaria wants a beachfront home, bad ass cars and a condo across the street from the hospital where he works.  He knows he can have this for the same effort in the other Island,  what incentives do you offer to keep him around? 

[Captain Dob Van Dwi]

Wow great questions Grutch.

Hummmm...

Q1- Do people own property?:

Most rural property would be owned communally. As in, say... three or four families as an example, who are in mutual agreement of course, buy to 50-100 acres of land. They own this land together, as the house or houses. Of course during the buying process various options of what they could do with the land would be laid out for them, farming, logging etc. The buyer has the final say tough. These shared Communes would be the backbone of the economy.

As for other bits of rural land which not communally owned, that's situational. Perhaps for a slaughter house or even a tannery?

One could have their own private land in a city I suppose.

That needs money to actually do of course. There would be money but it would expire after 8 (or whatever small number you can think of) years, new currency would be printed. These are called Labor Vouchers. Of course there would need to be a form of export and tourist currency/s. The Tourist would also expire eventually, perhaps after 5 years. The Export money would be need for trade with other countries, that would not have an expiry date or at least a very long one.

This is so people can not hoard wealth over a long period of time.

This of course brings up the question of private business. I don't care if someone or more likely a group of people or even a Worker's Council owns the aforementioned business above or a sandwich shop or whatever, even a gun store. It is the exploitation of workers and the abuse of private ownership that that I am against. Laws would come in too play, Unions would be a big thing. Strict regulations of larger businesses. Really I am for a mix of national and private ownership.

Public transportation, School funding, etc would be national. Public Health Care would be free or at least cheap of course. Doctors & Nurses would be given government pay.

I am also for a national armory, run by the army & police. No private person or persons should be able to make make money off the people that protect them. Speaking of protection...

Q2-  Short of using your rifle to defend your family from others or invaders, who provides police?

It would be a People's Police, as in the same way sheriffs are elected in the US. A person would run for the job and then hire deputies or the future deputies would run with this person as a group. Each serving a term of three years.

As for Invasion there would be a standing armed force. Volunteer of course. Small and to the point, no more than is need at the moment, maybe no more than 30,000, that all depends of the island's population of course. Army officers would be elected. Militias would be formed from volunteers in the event of mass attack, officer would of course also be elected in the Militias as well. All Officers would serve a term of 5 years.

Q3- Do you have a court system?:

Of course. Elected from a pool of educated persons. Each serving a term 3 years.

Q4- Do you own the very gun you hang in your (the common people's) home?

Yes. You shoot it, you own and take care of it. There would be stipulations and different forms of licensing: Manual (Bolt, pump, lever, single etc), Semi-Auto & Full Auto. Plus a mandatory training program for all three forms of licensing. Plus a psych eval every 5 years.

Would would have to own a few gun chambered in the Army's calibers of choice by law.

Q5- The biggest drawback to communism is about 20% of the people work many times harder than the others and are far more productive. They are ambitious and seek reward for their effort. How do you "reward" these people in your society?:

Ah the hardest question! I suppose vacation time all expenses paid to another country would be good.

Q6- Why? That's his life he can do what he wants. That's called freedom.

[Captain Dob Van Dwi]

Of course I am for other things too. Soup Kitchens, low-income housing, paid recycling, decentralized religion, equal rights for all (Blacks, Latinos, LGBT etc).

[Padre]

Mmmm. Soup.

[Captain Dob Van Dwi]

I like soup.

[Zak]

what if you don't want to live this way? who enforces communal living ? what if some workers do not work as hard as others but yet get the same ration of foodstuff? What if the "elected officials" abuse their power and utilized the police force to enforce under the, " greater good" clause? What if people start a group that speak out against stated communistic laws? Can a man or woman seek an education that does not go with the useful category like art , literature, or woman sexual studies? I mean what the heck useful to the collective would they be? If you do not have the said mental aptitude for higher education will you be assigned as a laborer? What would you do with the old, mentally disabled, or other sorts lacking the ability to contribute but take from the communal pot, so to speak.   

[Zak]

What would you do if Christian missionaries showed up at the door? would you view religion and self expression that teaches that personnel thought or the belief that something greater than the government a danger? would you regulate scientists that they are to report all findings to a "elected board" in order to make sure this information is not dangerous to the collective? ..... would you take religion out and form institutional worship of the great leader?   

[patsy02]

Most rural property would be owned communally. As in, say... three or four families as an example, who are in mutual agreement of course, buy to 50-100 acres of land. They own this land together, as the house or houses. Of course during the buying process various options of what they could do with the land would be laid out for them, farming, logging etc. The buyer has the final say tough. These shared Communes would be the backbone of the economy.

How is this any different from what you'd be able to do in western countries now? If four families want to make a mini-village together with 25% ownership each and a custom tribal council, nothing's gonna stop them.

And how will any of this create a classless society? Anyone who starts creating successful ventures or making successful investments using mutually agreed upon currency are going to outpace everyone else, and then you just end up with a run of the mill capitalist social democracy like every western country is, but with a token and not very useful military.

Q5- The biggest drawback to communism is about 20% of the people work many times harder than the others and are far more productive. They are ambitious and seek reward for their effort. How do you "reward" these people in your society?:

Going by the rules laid out so far; if you're allowed to own private property, and people are allowed to freely exchange resources as they see fit, then I don't see how someone wouldn't be rewarded for their services according to supply and demand. If this system is communistic only in the sense that people can create communes if they feel like it, then that's just what we have now.

[Padre]

What would you do if Christian missionaries showed up at the door? would you view religion and self expression that teaches that personnel thought or the belief that something greater than the government a danger?

I would (genuinely) try not to laugh at them, for I was once 'one of them', kind of. Religion might teach some kind of personal thought, but so does philosophy an humanism. It's not religion's prerogative. As for their belief in something greater, it is no more than a belief, and thus no more important to me than someone's belief in fairies or big foot.

would you take religion out and form institutional worship of the great leader?

I don't think that very atheistic societies like various Northern Europe countries worship their leaders. You are oversimplifying, and using straw man arguments. Besides, the 'worship' of Stalin makes no more sense to me than the worship of the Jewish Zombie god. Indeed it seems to me to be exactly the same sort of mythologising nonsense.

[Grutch]

 Captain Dob Van Dwi thanks for this conversation,  its a lot of fun. 

It seems like you're trying to address a few things like a level playing field,  "guaranteed living" meaning the community provides housing, food, medicine and education.  You're also attempting to tackle hoarding and exploitation.  So here's a bit more down that road..

There's a lot of unskilled shit jobs nobody wants to do.  I tarred roofs for a few months in the summer in los angeles and it was possibly the worst fucking time in southern california to wear thick dirty clothes, boots gloves hat and mask and stand around a hot machine working your ass off.  It was a decent paying job but I earned better money elsewhere for less labor and moved on from that quickly.   In a communist society, somebody has to do the shit jobs because 1, they're not bright to begin with or 2. Not ready in their education to take on better work.  Also have to point out, tarring roofs,  is brutal backbreaking disgusting smelly work, so is cleaning to sewers, butchering, waste collection, even plumbing!   Are these better compensated to claim that it's not exploitative?

Wise people set aside money for a rainy day, as well as retirement.  If you're destroying currencies at multi year cycles wouldn't people just adapt their saving/storing methods?  I for one can think of all sorts of ways to beat that system,  I'd procure goods with my earnings near the end of each cycle and resell them in the next cycle for example,  even if I have to black market that shit or do it offshore.   

I know I have more questions but I have to work.

[Captain Dob Van Dwi]

what if you don't want to live this way? who enforces communal living ? what if some workers do not work as hard as others but yet get the same ration of foodstuff? What if the "elected officials" abuse their power and utilized the police force to enforce under the, " greater good" clause? What if people start a group that speak out against stated communistic laws? Can a man or woman seek an education that does not go with the useful category like art , literature, or woman sexual studies? I mean what the heck useful to the collective would they be?  If you do not have the said mental aptitude for higher education will you be assigned as a laborer? What would you do with the old, mentally disabled, or other sorts lacking the ability to contribute but take from the communal pot, so to speak.     

What would you do if Christian missionaries showed up at the door? would you view religion and self expression that teaches that personnel thought or the belief that something greater than the government a danger? would you regulate scientists that they are to report all findings to a "elected board" in order to make sure this information is not dangerous to the collective? ..... would you take religion out and form institutional worship of the great leader?

Q1- what if you don't want to live this way?:

First you assume that you are forced. You are free to leave the island if you feel this type of life is not for you. Or a special request can me made for a private home I suppose.

Q2- who enforces communal living ?:

Nobody. Communal living is a choice of free will to live and work together. Mutual Agreement & Voluntary Association.

Q3- what if some workers do not work as hard as others but yet get the same ration of foodstuff?:

No rationing. You can buy what ever food stuff you want. I wasn't joking about the sandwich shop.

Q4- What if the "elected officials" abuse their power and utilized the police force to enforce under the, " greater good" clause?:

Then you oust them from their post. It works just like any other democracy. Should that fail, well, you have arms.

Q5- What if people start a group that speak out against stated communistic laws?:

That's their right to do so. So Long as they don't hurt anyone.

Q6- Can a man or woman seek an education that does not go with the useful category like art , literature, or woman sexual studies?:

Of course they can.

Q6 cont- I mean what the heck useful to the collective would they be?:

How are they not useful? Artists can inspire hope, writers can can entertain and enthrall. And Women who take WSS can maybe educate in the future.

Q7- If you do not have the said mental aptitude for higher education will you be assigned as a laborer?:

Self Employment options are available via the various Worker's Councils.

Q8- What would you do with the old, mentally disabled, or other sorts lacking the ability to contribute but take from the communal pot, so to speak.:

What every other country dose.   

Q9- What would you do if Christian missionaries showed up at the door? would you view religion and self expression that teaches that personnel thought or the belief that something greater than the government a danger?"

As I said above I am for decentralized religion. Meaning no Popes, Patriarchs, etc. The various religious workers councils oversee the local faiths.

For example The Christian Worker's Council is likely to have sent that missionary in the first place. Hence no issues. Now it the Pope sent one we would be having words with his popeness and send the missionary back.

Also being Kim Jung Un dose not sit well with me.

Q9- would you regulate scientists that they are to report all findings to a "elected board" in order to make sure this information is not dangerous to the collective?:

I would not. If any thing I would make sure the Scientists are pro-green environment.

 

[Captain Dob Van Dwi]

Most rural property would be owned communally. As in, say... three or four families as an example, who are in mutual agreement of course, buy to 50-100 acres of land. They own this land together, as the house or houses. Of course during the buying process various options of what they could do with the land would be laid out for them, farming, logging etc. The buyer has the final say tough. These shared Communes would be the backbone of the economy.

How is this any different from what you'd be able to do in western countries now? If four families want to make a mini-village together with 25% ownership each and a custom tribal council, nothing's gonna stop them.

And how will any of this create a classless society? Anyone who starts creating successful ventures or making successful investments using mutually agreed upon currency are going to outpace everyone else, and then you just end up with a run of the mill capitalist social democracy like every western country is, but with a token and not very useful military.

Q5- The biggest drawback to communism is about 20% of the people work many times harder than the others and are far more productive. They are ambitious and seek reward for their effort. How do you "reward" these people in your society?:

Going by the rules laid out so far; if you're allowed to own private property, and people are allowed to freely exchange resources as they see fit, then I don't see how someone wouldn't be rewarded for their services according to supply and demand. If this system is communistic only in the sense that people can create communes if they feel like it, then that's just what we have now.

Yes but these things (the Forming off communes & collectives) are not encouraged patsy. They would be under this system. You also seem to be mistaking private business for corporations. The latter would be totally collectivized and run by workers councils. as for private business a tax would have to be levied after a certain income cap.

With expiratory money no one would hold wealth for very long. You would have to sped it before the due date, otherwise it will be worthless to you.

[Captain Dob Van Dwi]

Captain Dob Van Dwi thanks for this conversation,  its a lot of fun. 

It seems like you're trying to address a few things like a level playing field,  "guaranteed living" meaning the community provides housing, food, medicine and education.  You're also attempting to tackle hoarding and exploitation.  So here's a bit more down that road..

There's a lot of unskilled shit jobs nobody wants to do.  I tarred roofs for a few months in the summer in los angeles and it was possibly the worst fucking time in southern california to wear thick dirty clothes, boots gloves hat and mask and stand around a hot machine working your ass off.  It was a decent paying job but I earned better money elsewhere for less labor and moved on from that quickly.   In a communist society, somebody has to do the shit jobs because 1, they're not bright to begin with or 2. Not ready in their education to take on better work.  Also have to point out, tarring roofs,  is brutal backbreaking disgusting smelly work, so is cleaning to sewers, butchering, waste collection, even plumbing!   Are these better compensated to claim that it's not exploitative?

Wise people set aside money for a rainy day, as well as retirement.  If you're destroying currencies at multi year cycles wouldn't people just adapt their saving/storing methods?  I for one can think of all sorts of ways to beat that system,  I'd procure goods with my earnings near the end of each cycle and resell them in the next cycle for example,  even if I have to black market that shit or do it offshore.   

I know I have more questions but I have to work.

Well payment can be anything really. Basic resources or example. I am merely using the 8 year Labor Voucher as an example. Hell they could be destroyed right after use.

As for the shit jobs they would have to get something I agree, even if they are volunteers. Again something to do with vacation time or an extended week end. 

[Artobans Ghost]

This is really hard to argue against. There is the very real and valid debates by Zak and Grutch concerning what almost everything comes down too and that’s the human. We could all be heading towards the greater future if we didn’t have to stumble over humans. I think what  Captain is getting at is that everyone would have to be on board or the train doesn’t go. If everyone is willing, the system works and there are checks and balances to those that step out of line. It certainly seems that a big change in the way we think would be required.

[Gankom]

In a couple of ways it sounds like early tribalism. Not in the leadership style, but in the way the community works. I find it interesting, but I have doubts how it would work as the community scales up. If the population on your island is small and everyone's willing, it could work out really well. Once the population expands I can see problems start to ramp up.

[Captain Dob Van Dwi]

@AG: Indeed. Some of humanity already think this way (like me of course) but others not so much. I have never one planned on taking my ideas beyond the local level anyway
.

@Gankom: That is true for all leftist ideology though.

[Zak]

OK this is where I was confused I guess; so this is a group of people getting together to form a communal existence? OK, SOooo this is not a group of people rising up and taking over a large body of people and changing laws and governing style AKA Bolsheviks revolution.

1-  OK, what if one member found religion on one of their sandwich trading mission and brought said faith back because it rocked their world. They are passionate about said faith and want others to partake of the happiness . This causes waves, as they become more into self-sufficiency and not so much into the communal living,  yet want to stay because its just a nice place to live. These people become more wealthy and love eating steak than eating the communal gruel. This has caused hard feelings to develop as the rest of the community thinks steak smells very good.   

2- OK, what about allowing outsiders into the community? Lets say from refugees with their own costumes and traditions. These customs directly contradict with the set rules of the people. These refugees are from a war torn region and carry with them many young people who are having a very hard time sharing the work loads and blending in thus it very hard for them to find work, yet are first in line for gruel. The crime rate has also gone up due to refugee behavior going against customs and regulations. WHAT DO YOU DO?

3- Farmer Brown, one night, shoots and kills the militant lesbian couple for plowing up his allotted corn field. The lesbians decided that his field was better than theirs ( less rocks and rattle snakes) and because he was a straight white male with no spouse he did not need a nicer field. Also because they are a minority and gay they deserved reparations. We know this information because of all the yelling and complaining during communal council, in which,  many times they would scream obscenities and smear red paint on their face when farmer brown would plead his case to keep the field. Its good to also note that farmer Brown is easy the best farmer in the region and produces the best, sweetest corn in the world. ( he won first prize for world best corn competition).. WHAT DO YOU DO!! 

4- I love this thread by the way

5- Padre your kind of a douche-bag my friend.

6- A neighboring commune moves in next door. They are much cooler than you guys, we know this because all the teenagers want to move over there. They have also attracted your brightest people because of their rocking science departments. This was no big deal at first but soon the ruling "elected" council 2018 census statistical report stated a lose of 20% and in this rate in 5 years you will not be able to replenish these young people. One elected official stated maybe we should look at the liberal abortion laws and cut back making them illegal but not in the case of rape or incest's, he is systematically shot in the head by the militant zombie lesbian couple, ( yes you know necromancy). Another council person ( keeping it all PC) suggested war in order to eliminate the threat.......... WHAT DO YOU DO???             

[Captain Dob Van Dwi]

Q1: Hard one. Guess you would have to put it to a vote.

Q2: I would assume that you would invite specific people

Q3&4: You are messing with me now aren't you... for #3 I would say jail, remove him from the commune and let outside law enforcement take care of him, especially if this commune happens to reside peacefully in another country like the USA. No need to get in trouble. As for #3, I say to heck with that noise we need an zombie response unit!

[Zak]

hahaha nice