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Author Topic: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th  (Read 8099 times)

Offline Grutch

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Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« on: May 13, 2009, 12:59:48 AM »
Halberdiers- Fight in two ranks, +1 Str (Both Ranks) (no shield upgrade possible)
Swordsmen - No change
Spearmen-  Free Shield option
Pikemen- Fight in four ranks (spear statline) 6 points a model.
Free Company - no change

The Statlines are the same as in the 7th Ed. Empire book,  points cost are yet to be determined.

Halberds are your attack troops that fight in two ranks at +1 Str.  Being professionally trained empire soldiers reflect this.  If you want to argue fluff,  Chaos Halberdiers are uh,  too crazy and chaotic in combat and would stab one another in the back trying to fight in two ranks.  Elves are too individualistic to really work together in that cohesive manner, and grave guard are uh.. dead already.  There fluff problem solved.

+1 Str for two ranks is not over the top, and keeps things simple and that's how I like it. 

To keep Spearmen from disappearing off the table, I'd field them with a FREE shield.  What self respecting spearman shows up without his shield!?  A 5 point spearman is nothing to be trifled with!

Pikes would be spearmen with four ranks of s3 killyness.  Price them the same as Swordsmen and you're good.  No always strike first or special confusing complicated rules that bog down the game.

-Grutch



Offline Michael W

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2009, 01:50:19 AM »
I still really like the "front rank always strikes" rule for Halberdiers, as somebody put it, "the doughty halberdier steps over his fallen comrades."  Based on Imperial discipline instead of the weapon's rule, so we don't have to share!

* The problem I see with 2 ranks is that Halberds then just become improved spearmen, and the question becomes "does the enemy have S3 or S4?"  They're still defensive troops.  FRAS is, too, but it's a type of defense that recognizes that the halberdiers only chance lies in actually harming the enemy.

And Pikes should be a Defended Obstacle (from the front, just like the ranks rule).  Four ranks isn't terribly impressive and certainly doesn't scare heavy cav.  But losing their lances in the first round...that might (or, for Brets, their whole formation!).  Bretonnian archers already have it, so we aren't creating a new rule.  8 pts/model.

I like the free shield for spearmen, though.  That or put swords back at 7pts, where they belong.
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2009, 02:14:42 AM »
The problem is the equivalent Chaos swordsmen are still 6 points and have a lot more options up their sleeves....so yeah.

Offline wissenlander

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2009, 02:26:56 AM »
That's because they're heathens.  You don't want to be a heathen do you?

Me and Wissenlander had babies!

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Offline Qrab

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2009, 02:45:45 AM »
I still really like the "front rank always strikes" rule for Halberdiers, as somebody put it, "the doughty halberdier steps over his fallen comrades."  Based on Imperial discipline instead of the weapon's rule, so we don't have to share!

That was me!
And I still think it's the preferable approach. I'll have to cogitate on this whole 8th edition thing for a while before contributing anything else.

Offline Obi

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2009, 05:43:38 PM »
That's because they're heathens.  You don't want to be a heathen do you?
I'm here laughing my ass off.

Although I like your take on the matter Grutch- I don't like your pike version. IMO warlord's is better.

In any case I'm missing the scouts

Huntsmen as is with longbows, minimum size 5 models. Remove 0-1, restriction, but they do not count towards minimum required core units. May swap their longbows for pistols.




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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2009, 07:17:18 PM »
But on a flip note, is it really worth paying an extra point a model just for a detachment system? Remember that before the new Warriors of Chaos book, Light Armor+Shield marauders cost 7 points a model too. So for WS 4, I 4 naked humans, it should still be 5 pts base with upgrading options. Naturally, since we're not chaotic, we don't get the Great Weapons or flails as upgrades but we get other upgrades in turn...

Offline Grutch

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2009, 09:23:28 AM »
Although I like your take on the matter Grutch- I don't like your pike version. IMO warlord's is better.

What's his version?  I'm curious.

-Grutch

Offline Obi

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2009, 11:45:18 AM »
"I think the rule for pikes should be as is, except as well as +1S against those types of targets, it should also be -2AS modifer.
They can't be detachments (like Greatswords), nor can they have detachments (like Free Company). Should be probably 9 points, with cheap command options like the rest of our troops. Can be a Core choice, however no more units of Pikes than units of other state troops. Have option for heavy armour at +1 pt."
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2009, 12:45:44 PM »
Shouldnt have detachments? WTF are you smoking?
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Offline Obi

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2009, 01:12:03 PM »
nothing, and I prefer to keep it that way. With warlord's setup you can use small units of skirmishing pistol wielding chaps to guard them, like duellists.
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2009, 01:35:33 PM »
Apart from the small units cant counterfire or countercharge for the pike, they have to let the pike take the charge then join in when they can

if anything the only unit to get detatchements should be pike, but the last thing that should happen is they dont get them!
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Offline Dannyfave

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2009, 03:48:34 PM »
Or you can allow the front rank of the pike regiment to have handguns, hand weapon and shield while the back three ranks have pikes :-D
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2009, 05:20:23 PM »
Why not also mix in small cannon too, hell never mind that, give the front rank repeating hand guns
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Offline Dannyfave

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2009, 05:57:18 PM »
Why not also mix in small cannon too, hell never mind that, give the front rank repeating hand guns

If they can't have detachments then that is the only way to go.
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2009, 06:37:12 PM »
How about some sort of flamethrower>
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Offline Dannyfave

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2009, 06:47:19 PM »
How about some sort of flamethrower>

Plus stregnth 5 pikes?
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2009, 10:01:19 PM »
How about some sort of flamethrower>

Nah...maybe as an upgrade for a combat engineer squad...speaking of which...

Offline Naitsabes

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2009, 03:10:06 AM »
...so back on topic.

I'll go against the grain here (and am ready to catch some flak): in my opinion we already have too many core infantry that aren't really that different. The end result is that one unit is slightly better and hence that's all you see, currently swordsmen (unless someone deliberately takes a weaker choice).  I would suggest dropping the swordsmen all together or relegating them to militia. Leave spearmen as is (or give them a small buff as Grutch suggested), this would be the defensive choice. Give halberdiers a big buff (several options there), this would be the offensive choice. If done right, we might then see an actual mix of infantry units, which I find aesthetically pleasing and also more interesting from a game perspective.

In the same vein, but maybe less controversial: I'd like to see a rule that parent unit and detachment cannot have the same equipment (i.e. a halberdier unit can't have a halberdier detachment). It would be a small nod to real world history but more importantly again be visually more interesting.
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2009, 03:32:43 AM »
It would utterly negate the purpose of using swordsmen-swordsmen detachments to negate enemy ranks. As it stands, Empire is already eclipsed in that their static CR can be blown through by an increasingly large amount of superunits...why weaken them further?

Offline Naitsabes

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2009, 05:03:18 AM »
well, you can still have swordsmen detachments for the usual survivability while negating ranks if we leave them in as militias. I just think it's hard to make three (or maybe even four with pikes) close combat units sufficiently different.

as far as the general power curve goes: Buff up spearmen and halberdiers even further if needed. But: This is for 8th edition when all the books will be re-worked, so some of them could also be nerfed. Empire will come out first and set a standard. Then all the other books follow at the same power level and everything is perfectly balanced. :ph34r: I also hear that fox and rabbit will hug and kiss each other.
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Offline MiB

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2009, 10:17:08 AM »
Whats needed is not a specific boost for Empire Halberds but a much more improved set of rules for weapons overall, something to sell them other than the bog standard "HW+S = WIN BONUS!!!1"

Offline Luschke

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2009, 08:22:25 AM »
Pikes with killing blows in first turn against charging cavalry. :>

Offline Obi

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Re: Grutch's simple Core Infantry Choices for 8th
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2009, 04:27:52 PM »
Luschke, let me welcome you to the forums first. Have one on Midaski's!  :::cheers:::

Next, let me tell you that we are, for the first time in W-E history having a serious discussion about how to improve Empire infantry. Don't go f'ing that up, please.

Thanks!

-Obi
Hello Athiuen and welcome to the Back Table.

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Offline Warlord

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Re:
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2009, 11:52:56 PM »
Obi, what the hell was that? I think his suggestion was actually decent, and reflective of the pike's ability against cavalry. You could have commented on his suggestion, rather than insulting him.
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