Author Topic: 7th Edition coming for reals?! (Read 24967 times)

phillyt · « **Reply #50 on:** May 01, 2014, 07:01:03 PM »

I don't think the percentages are a problem, I just think it plays a little too well into the constant wishlisted rumor that 40k would be moving to a percentage system.

Could happen and if it does, it could be very interesting. I am not married to the traditional FOC, but with the inclusion of all the normal references to the FOC in the new Astra book, I find it unlikely we will see a shift of that size on what is being described as Warhammer 40k 6.1 (NOT 6.5).

Dosiere · « **Reply #51 on:** May 02, 2014, 02:58:19 AM »

There should be different FoC for different sized games at least. Or maybe different FoC for different missions?

It's one thing to include super heavies in the game, it's another to have to face them in every damn game you play. I am seeing this happen now with the release of the Imperial Knight. Lots of people are using them, which is OK I guess, but it changes the meta and your list building. It's also annoying to see them all the time. If it was every once in a while, it would be a fun change of pace.

Think of it like this: Wouldn't it be nice to have doube-rares banned in 2k fantasy games? Its just plain stupid when the Skaven player shows up with 2 Abombs in a 2k game. At 3k it's ok, since at that size of a game and army you should be able to handle it.

phillyt · « **Reply #52 on:** May 02, 2014, 10:58:49 AM »

Well you do get another FOC over 2000 and there are some missions that make other models scoring, which is really the big thing in 40k. If you can sweep scoring units off the table, winning gets extremely difficult for the opponent.

phillyt · « **Reply #53 on:** May 02, 2014, 11:17:24 AM »

And now we have rumor mongers calling the percentage bullshit. It has been floating around as a rumor since 4th edition for future editions, so it popping up here was no surprise.

phillyt · « **Reply #54 on:** May 05, 2014, 09:21:55 PM »

Holy shit...

The new CONFIRMED (picture from the White Dwarf) of the two style army selection process, Battle Forged and Unbound, is fucking insane.

Made it around to all the sites at this point:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/05/40k-7th-edition-early-rumblings-7th_5.html

Finlay · « **Reply #55 on:** May 05, 2014, 09:48:08 PM »

Wow!
Absolutely humongous changes if true.

phillyt · « **Reply #56 on:** May 05, 2014, 09:53:47 PM »

Outrageous!

Within our group, I would be the only one really able to completely capitalize on these changes. Drop pod sternguard with ork nob bikers and hordes backed by IG artillery and primaris diviners. Lootas with divination would be terrifying.

Stupid if the rules end up being that wide open.

Aldaris · « **Reply #57 on:** May 05, 2014, 10:31:12 PM »

Speechless.

Want to know more.

This might be awesome or absolutely terrible, depending on how it's done. I hope in particular that the ability to chuck the force org chart out the window would have hefty repercussions to balance it.

I am cautiously excited and very, very curious!

phillyt · « **Reply #58 on:** May 05, 2014, 10:34:15 PM »

Current clarification seems to be that the Unbound list is still restricted by the ally chart, it just doesn't restrict to the FOC.

If that is the case, not TOO big of a deal in most cases. In my normal armies I can't even fill my FOC before I run out of points.

And with all the dataslates and other options, running out of slots is very rare.

Aldaris · « **Reply #59 on:** May 05, 2014, 10:39:07 PM »

Very, very, VERY curious!

Crimsonsphinx · « **Reply #60 on:** May 06, 2014, 08:15:47 AM »

I think this unbound thing is quite possibly the most horrendous idea for game balance I have ever heard. I would love to stack my eldar army with heavy support choices, and now it appears I will be able to!

Sig · « **Reply #61 on:** May 06, 2014, 08:19:24 AM »

Safe to say we'd be enforcing the Force Org type lists around here. Not interested in playing an all tank army or whatever nonsense they come up with.

Crimsonsphinx · « **Reply #62 on:** May 06, 2014, 08:24:01 AM »

Quote from: Sig on May 06, 2014, 08:19:24 AM

Safe to say we'd be enforcing the Force Org type lists around here. Not interested in playing an all tank army or whatever nonsense they come up with.

The Knight army is already an all tank army. Totally official too. Its like Apocalypse is being drip fed into the 40k system as a whole. I am hopeful my gaming group will not want to do this Unbound thing.

Finlay · « **Reply #63 on:** May 06, 2014, 08:28:57 AM »

It depends on the bonus for battle forged.

Deldar could certainly use more slots!

Sig · « **Reply #64 on:** May 06, 2014, 08:46:43 AM »

We already don't allow all Knight armies. Official is a pretty nebulous term. Escalation is "official" but we don't use that either, because Titans shit all over 40k. If it gets really bad the competitive scene will simply die for an edition or two, or permanently if people move on to other games, or turn back to Fantasy.

Mathi Alfblut · « **Reply #65 on:** May 06, 2014, 09:10:38 AM »

This just... Silly. Now, if at least unbound means you are restricted by precentages like WHFB there may be some sense in the madness, but still it sounds like a clear plan to make people buy more stuff. I think that, as Philly points out, that he s the only one in his group that could really capitalize on this. It seem a perfect way to push peple into buying more minis just to keep up in the arms race. The do not have too, it is voluntarily, but GW have read up on their group psychology . In the end, if people get hooked enough, they will get drawn into the arms race.

Crimsonsphinx · « **Reply #66 on:** May 06, 2014, 12:31:09 PM »

Quote from: Mathi Alfblut on May 06, 2014, 09:10:38 AM

This just... Silly. Now, if at least unbound means you are restricted by precentages like WHFB there may be some sense in the madness, but still it sounds like a clear plan to make people buy more stuff. I think that, as Philly points out, that he s the only one in his group that could really capitalize on this. It seem a perfect way to push peple into buying more minis just to keep up in the arms race. The do not have too, it is voluntarily, but GW have read up on their group psychology . In the end, if people get hooked enough, they will get drawn into the arms race.

40k has been an arms race since forever though Sig. I have a genuine competitive advantage over all my gaming group because I have a much larger collection of models for all of my armies. So I can switch things about a lot more than they can on a game to game basis. This is because I generally collect at least one of every entry in a codex, unless I can't see any reason why I would ever use it.

From a sales perspective this works really well for GW.

What I mean by official is that people agree to not use things like Escalation. If it is in the actual rulebook proper, you really will have a fight on your hands saying no, you can't use this. I have no idea why anyone would field an all knight army anyway. It seems terribly impractical. How would they fare against an Eldar army bringing 30 Fire dragons in wave serpents? Badly I would imagine.

valmir · « **Reply #67 on:** May 06, 2014, 12:56:48 PM »

Quote from: Crimsonsphinx on May 06, 2014, 12:31:09 PM

I have no idea why anyone would field an all knight army anyway. It seems terribly impractical. How would they fare against an Eldar army bringing 30 Fire dragons in wave serpents? Badly I would imagine.

Well, it's sort of a scissors paper rock thing. I'm actually really looking forward to facing a Knight army for the first time, because basically my entire AT is haywire grenades. On the other hand, there are plenty of armies, I'm sure, that would have a lot of trouble with it...

Crimsonsphinx · « **Reply #68 on:** May 06, 2014, 02:33:16 PM »

Quote from: valmir on May 06, 2014, 12:56:48 PM

Quote from: Crimsonsphinx on May 06, 2014, 12:31:09 PM
I have no idea why anyone would field an all knight army anyway. It seems terribly impractical. How would they fare against an Eldar army bringing 30 Fire dragons in wave serpents? Badly I would imagine.

Well, it's sort of a scissors paper rock thing. I'm actually really looking forward to facing a Knight army for the first time, because basically my entire AT is haywire grenades. On the other hand, there are plenty of armies, I'm sure, that would have a lot of trouble with it...

Well yes and no. Fire dragons are pretty common in a lot of Eldar armies. Maybe not thirty, but a unit certainly is. Any army that has a half way decent anti tank will rip knights in two. Five giant walkers, no matter how tough they are, will die quite easily. I have seen forces including four land raiders killed fairly easily, and they are tougher than knights.

I can however see armies like Nids struggling.

phillyt · « **Reply #69 on:** May 06, 2014, 03:10:07 PM »

Escalation in a separate book or in the BRB isn't relevant. It isn't "optional" and trying to use the "It isn't in the BRB" argument is no more valid than someone saying that about an army book. But you are free to say that you don't want to play against super heavies or knights.

As far as knights, very few armies have the ability to beat a kngiht army unless you specifically know you will be playing one and plan accordingly. Nowfun fact, many people coming out of Adepticon feel that Knights are potentially the only solution to the Deathstar crazy. A single knight will ruin your average deathstar's day, both through stomps and the eventual explosion.

Percentages are completely out and were never a plausible rumor anyway. My big concern now is the whole psychic phase and mission objective card rumors. Why slow the game down? Why move it ever so slightly towards the fantasy model, which has been so far eclipsed by 40k as to be a borderline product in many respects. Fantasy isn't popular, why mimic some of it?

Finlay · « **Reply #70 on:** May 06, 2014, 03:15:38 PM »

Quote from: PhillyT on May 06, 2014, 03:10:07 PM

Escalation in a separate book or in the BRB isn't relevant. It isn't "optional" and trying to use the "It isn't in the BRB" argument is no more valid than someone saying that about an army book. But you are free to say that you don't want to play against super heavies or knights.

As far as knights, very few armies have the ability to beat a kngiht army unless you specifically know you will be playing one and plan accordingly. Nowfun fact, many people coming out of Adepticon feel that Knights are potentially the only solution to the Deathstar crazy. A single knight will ruin your average deathstar's day, both through stomps and the eventual explosion.

Percentages are completely out and were never a plausible rumor anyway. My big concern now is the whole psychic phase and mission objective card rumors. Why slow the game down? Why move it ever so slightly towards the fantasy model, which has been so far eclipsed by 40k as to be a borderline product in many respects. Fantasy isn't popular, why mimic some of it?

I already don't play unpainted armies, deathstars, or IG.
so yeh, knights are optional for me

Agreed on your “psychic” concerns philly, and also the fluff. Dark Eldar are meant to be anti psyker, now they get some?

I also think the FoC stuff has 2 potential problems. 1: the bonus for battle forged is really good, therefore further punishing armies which need to use their slots (basically, armies which don’t have beardy/flying/tough dedicated transports) vs armies who don’t need to use them all. Or 2: the bonus isn’t good enough, so everyone just forgoes the FoC altogether.

valmir · « **Reply #71 on:** May 06, 2014, 03:30:44 PM »

What weirds me out is that these changes seem to be going back to 2nd ed 40k... Psychic phase. Cards. Mash-everything-onto-the-table Force-Org.

Mathi Alfblut · « **Reply #72 on:** May 06, 2014, 03:47:07 PM »

There are infact faint signs that WHFB may be going the same way based on a few observation in the Wood elf book.

phillyt · « **Reply #73 on:** May 06, 2014, 03:49:21 PM »

You nailed it Fin, everything is technically optional since you can just chose to not play. But the excuse of it not being official (like the old Forgeworld ruling) isn't applicable.

Darknight · « **Reply #74 on:** May 06, 2014, 04:04:49 PM »

I think the idea of Unbounded is actually pretty cool - isn't that the notion of Apocalypse? One just puts stuff down to about the same points value and has a blast?

Really, Unbounded just sounds like "smaller Apocalypse". Obviously, a FOC army couldn't effectively fight an Unbounded force, but the Unbounded option could be really exciting.

Really, they are creating two separate games here - and that MIGHT be their idea. Perhaps they are going for "Unbounded" meaning "Beer and Pretzels totally" with the FOC option gradually being moved to being more formal, with better-structured rules?

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Author Topic: 7th Edition coming for reals?! (Read 24967 times)