Topic: Terror in Talabheim

[Dazgrim]

My understanding of Fear and Terror is that they work as they always have. That a creature that causes Fear only suffers Fear from a creature that causes Terror.

However, it has been pointed out in another venue that there is nothing in the rules that explicitly makes units that cause Fear immune to Terror. The argument was thus advanced that a dragon, for example would cause both Fear and Terror in a unit of DGK.

What do people think?

Terror
There are creatures so fierce that their mere appearance can cause
the bravest to flee.
Models with this special rule cause Terror. Models that cause Terror also cause Fear, as described on page 168:

• When a unit that causes Terror declares a charge, the charge target must immediately make a Leadership test. If this test is failed, it must Flee. If this test is passed, it can declare its charge reaction normally.
• If the winning side of a combat includes one or more units that cause Terror, each unit that belongs to the losing side must apply a -1 modifier to its Leadership characteristic when making its Break test. 

Note that if a charged unit cannot choose to Flee, it does not make
this Leadership test.
Models with the Fear special rule Fear models that cause Terror. Models that cause Terror are immune to Terror. A unit that does not cause Terror does not become immune to Terror when joined by a character that does.

[Minsc]

My understanding of Fear and Terror is that they work as they always have. That a creature that causes Fear only suffers Fear from a creature that causes Terror.

However, it has been pointed out in another venue that there is nothing in the rules that explicitly makes units that cause Fear immune to Terror.

How about the part in the rules that say that models with Fear instead Fear models that cause Terror? Seems clear enough for my gaminggroup at least.

They arent immune to Terror but they treat it as Fear, so theres no need to explicitly say that they are inmune terror because it would be irrelevant.

Honestly, given how incredibly shit of a rule Fear is in general, its  interraction with Terror is the best part of having it.

[Dazgrim]

I completely agree with you. It hadn't occurred to me that there was any alternative interpretation.

But they are arguing that RAW all the line in Terror does is overrule the clause in Fear that says if you cause Fear you are immune to it.

[Warlord]

How about the part in the rules that say that models with Fear instead Fear models that cause Terror? Seems clear enough for my gaming group at least.

Does it say instead?

The quoted text above does not.

[Skyros]

Models with the Fear special rule Fear models that cause Terror.

Is there any other possible interpretation of this sentence, than that models that cause fear ONLY fear models that cause terror?

It seems to me otherwise, the sentence literally has no meaning. Because all models normally fear terror causing creatures.

[Warlord]

It doesn't say that the terror is reduced to fear. Rather that terror causes both fear and terror to everything other than other terror causers.
Thats my reading. Not bringing old intent from previous editions. Not saying I like it. Just how I read it.

[PowerSeries]

Models with the Fear special rule Fear models that cause Terror.

I'm pretty sure they meant they meant they treat models with terror as if they only had fear.  And if people read it differently they will FAQ it.

[Dazgrim]

Fear
Particularly large or disturbing creatures provoke terrible fear in the foe.
Models with this special rule cause Fear:

• If a unit wishes to declare a charge
  against an enemy unit that both causes Fear and has a higher Unit Strength, it must first make a Leadership test. If this test is failed, the unit cannot charge.
  It does not move and is considered to have made a failed charge. If this test is passed, the unit can charge as normal.
• If a unit is engaged with an enemy unit that both causes Fear and has a higher Unit Strength when its combat is chosen during any Choose & Fight Combat sub-phase, it must make a Leadership test. If this test is failed, any models in the unit that direct their attacks against the Fear-causing enemy suffer a -1 modifier to their rolls To Hit.

A unit only needs to make one Fear test per turn.
Models that cause Fear are immune to Fear.
A unit that does not cause Fear does not become immune to Fear when joined by a character that does.

There is nothing in Fear to say that they are immune to Terror. And the line in Terror seems to just override the Fear causer's immunity to Fear.

[Minsc]

How about the part in the rules that say that models with Fear instead Fear models that cause Terror? Seems clear enough for my gaming group at least.

Does it say instead?

The quoted text above does not.

Hmm, you're right, "instead" must've been in my headcanon.

Ahh well, another RAW vs RAI-debate to add to the list.
For me and my group, the intent is clear. It makes no sense that Fearcausers are as afraid of Terror as non-Fearcausers.

[Warlord]

Things making no sense is not an argument anymore IMO. TOW has limited rule continuity from WHFB, so who actually knows what their RAI was.

To me, there are lots of rules that make no sense for them to have changed, but they did…

[Skyros]

Sadly this pretty much only impacts demigryph knights, since most fear and terror causers are undead and thus immune to psychology anyway

[Warlord]

It affects Ogres more than us.

[Skyros]

True! I just forget they exist as I haven't played them at all in TOW.