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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Empire 8th Army Book => Topic started by: Obi on May 13, 2009, 05:52:57 PM
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Well, we all want Kislev back, don't we ;)
I'd keep the rules the same, with the following changes:
- Kislev kossars and boyars are armed with axes (+1 Str)
- A Boyar may not take a handgun or a pistol
- A boyar costs 60 points
Any other suggestions?
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Sorry, i'm not a fan of Kislev.
That kingdom surely must be torn apart by now, how many times has Praag been utterly destroyed?
If you want Kislev, i think, then with certain tweaks that we're discussing, there'd be scope to make them.
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a larger variety of mounted troops and foot, boyar was only supposed to be used when Kislev was used as an ally in an empire army. But I like the figure/stats. witches, wizards, priests, heros all need to be added. I keep hoping that Kislev will be revived and upgraded. steveb
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Tweeking of the Wing Lancer/Gryphon Legion's Glorious Charge rule to cause fear on the charge not panic...
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Well, we all want Kislev back, don't we ;)
I'd keep the rules the same, with the following changes:
- Kislev kossars and boyars are armed with axes (+1 Str)
- A Boyar may not take a handgun or a pistol
- A boyar costs 60 points
Any other suggestions?
Hello Obi. My suggestions are a Boyar costs should be a 65-70 pst. He got Stubborn.
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Kossar get Light Armour....
As mentioned Winged Lancers/ Gryphon Legion cause fear on the charge instead of panic...I wouldn't mind seeing some slightly different rules/stats to differentiate between Lancers and Legion
Shield option for Ungol Horse archers
Well, we all want Kislev back, don't we ;)
I'd keep the rules the same, with the following changes:
- Kislev kossars and boyars are armed with axes (+1 Str)
- A Boyar may not take a handgun or a pistol
- A boyar costs 60 points
Any other suggestions?
So are you just suggesting the Kislev axes are inessances Halberds instead of GW? I have no problem with the pistols or handgun, it would be a sign of status to having a firearm instead of a bow. I would put the Boyar at 65 points like Mr Carloff said
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I'd rather see Winged lancers and Gryphon legion just given the ability to reform after moving like Fast cav but with no other abilities. Gryphon Legion would remain S4. Otherwise reduce the point values to 19pts each for winged lancers and 21 for gryphon Legion. Fast cav need shields and a spear option.
Ideally I'd like ice magic for Kislev wizards, War wagons, a few more infantry types and mobile cannon like the DoW Galloping guns.
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I think Kislev should be reintroduced. They look great. However, Id love to see our knights gain from a similar detachment system using Knight blocks with light cav as support - ie Kislev.
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I would personally like to see warrior-priests of Ursun, with their own kind of prayers and rules. No hatred or crush the weak, but something unique. Perhaps a boost which goes lost if the priest, or the unit he is with, flees.
And some plastics would be nice to see. That way I can add them to my (very) slowly growing army of the Ostermark.
Castozor
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Personally, I am of the school that says every old world nation would be better off having their own armylist, rather than having to field them in another army. I mean, I know that Kislevites used to be Imperial in 5th-edition, but surely one can give them enough unique units to make them their own crazy faction...I remember an exceprt from Beasts in Velvet that the Red Star Kislevite Underground had radical ideas about worker ownership of the means of producton...The Empire wields a hammer, Kislevite wields a...sickle?
At any rate, we would have Kislevite Strelets, who have halberds and handguns; this combo provides a +1 to-hit bonus due to the bardiches being usable as gunrests. The unit has the option to carry a Gulai-Gorod, a movable fortress which prevents marching but allows the unit to be treated as being in hard-cover.
I could see them also having fear-causing light cavalry with flails ("Oprichinki"), their Kossars and Winged Lancers as normal, some variant of a war wagon...
As for casters, there are the ice mages of course, perhaps some sort of shamanic human that could use hallucinogenic mushrooms, maybe a melee hero with some minor spellcasting ability; alternately, a Baba Yaga-inspired witch in a flying mortar-and-pestle (or Terror-causing hut with legs)...
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Sorry, i just noticed this thread.
I'd like to add, Realm of the Ice Queen has some things in it some have already touched on, and a few more that could be mentioned:
1. There are at least two official units of firearm infantry, with handgun/ arquebus and berdishe axe. Probably more, since they have a school to train such troops.
2. They have quite a few cannons; and they tend to build lighter cannons than the Empire. The several ideas for gallopers or urugans would fit with what's been said about Kislev artillery technology.
3. There are some knights, but not a lot, scattered about Kislev. The Order of the Winter Sun seems to be one such choice available.
There are several good recently developed army lists out there.
I think a couple of them are good enough that in closing I'll say that the next army I build will be Kislev, just 'cause i really like how they might look. Even if i have to scratchbuild/kitbash most of it.
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Kislevite kitbashing should hopefully see a revival now that the new archer box has 10 perfect kislevite heads in there. :)
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I think Kislev should get their own army book, which can work like the allies system in 40k.
You know, the Kislevite list is normal but you may take any empire core unit as special and any special as rare type of deal.
And maybe give is it gryphon legion? cause terror on the charge instead of what is it now? panic or fear?
And 21pts for cavalry with s6 on charge? give me please. . . no more Empire knights for me.
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And maybe give is it gryphon legion? cause terror on the charge instead of what is it now? panic or fear?
And 21pts for cavalry with s6 on charge? give me please. . . no more Empire knights for me.
Its panic. Which has much the same affect as Terror - fleeing from them.
And they are 26pts per model - not 21.
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Yeah panic is good but there are so many things ignorant(immune) of panic nowadays.
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Just got back into the hobby why has Kislev been dropped?, I couldn't find anything on the games workshop website, same with dogs of war, I always liked them as it gave you something different to toy with.
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Well dogs of war is still technically legal however is so out of date its has a lot of issue with changes in editions, you can still buy some of the models. Same with Chaos dwarfs they are still technically legal just really out of date and they don’t sell minis for them.
Kislev well I don’t know they just stopped perhaps they just didn’t make much money.
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As a DoW player, I suffer my fair share of defeats. But I make up for it with good humour and some cool fluff.
Though, now I've started playing the updated rules from dogsofwaronline which they are attempting to get passed for review for the Indy Grand Tournies.
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Kislev well I don’t know they just stopped perhaps they just didn’t make much money.
Last time I heard the Kislev allies contingent that came out just before the Storm of Chaos is still legal, I just can't remember if it was only if they were used solo or that they had to be allied to another army...
As for making money (which is all GW are interested in nowdays, god how I miss 5th and 6th eds.) I would have thought they would make money out of them. I as well as the 90% majority of all the Empire players i've ever met would buy Kislev stuff if it was still sold in stores or on their website. Even those who don't want a Kislev army would stiil buy them for their Empire stuff. I've seen Kossars and Tzar Boris' used in Middenheimer, Ostermark and Ostland armies.
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There are two armies I would play instantly if they were released. . . Kislev and Araby.
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So lets make our own book.... ;)
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Done and done fauthsie!
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I've been kicking around ideas of what to do after A4.... a kislev book is one of many things on my long to do list...
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sweet
I'll help you with playtesting. . .
If i can help with the rules, I can help playtest them. :happy:
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So lets make our own book.... ;)
There's already several versions of Kislev Army Lists kicking about on the web, several of them fairly similar and pretty good.
I don't understand why GW dropped the Kislev thing, I suppose because of lack of sales, or maybe too many humie armies. But there's always plenty of interest in all things Kislev on W-E.com and if anything goes up on ebay it always goes/sells very well with lots of interest.
I for one would love to see a revamped official list with new models to suit, but I won't hold my breath.
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Just some cool plastic kossars, lancers and griffon legionnaires, maybe some plastic characters.
I would definately get a small force.
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Ya... I have seen/read many of the kislev books. There is something about them that I don't like that much, I really don't know what it is... they just feel off...
But I am with you. If GW did re-release them I would buy them...
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I would buy a new Kislev book and force in a heartbeat, as I have like 3k points of pure Kislev...
The codex needs to be revamped and revisited, but I've found that by using Kislev as a main force and taking Empire Allies I can create a pretty fluffy and still relatively competitive army. The Kossars are the most frustrating part, since they have some nice abilities (allows stand and shoot) but don't really benefit a lot from them in large blocks. Smaller blocks of Kossars aren't effective use of the Boyar's special ability, so you really can't use both to it's fullest potential.
I'd love to see the Urskin the Bear (or some variation thereof) as a mount for a Lord Level Kislev Character though!
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I have a kislev allied contingent. (VERY ASTONISHING MODELS)
It consists of:
Tsarina Katharina (The Ice Queen)
Tsar Boris on bear
2x boyar
36x kossar (FC)
15x Ungol Horse Archer (FC)
12x Winged Lancer (FC)
19x Gryphon Legion (FC)
I play it for 6 years now. (Either with an empire (Middenheim theme) or Brets army)
It has some HUGE advantages...... and some disadvantages.....
1st of all, if you use the tsarina in your contingent she uses MASSIVE points (500), BUT!
- You can use level 4 ice magic! - very surprising for your opponent.
- ALL CONTINGENT UNITS are STUBBORN
- You have TWO generals! (One from the main army and one from the contingent.....)
- The CONTINGENT can use the 12'' rule from BOTH armies (The main force only from the main general)
- 0-1 Restriction of the Gryphon Legion is lifted (Which means you can use them ALSO as DoW - if you don't use Bretonnia)
- Ungol Horse archers (Fast cav) HAVE BS4!!!! (cheapest fast cav in the warhammer world)
- Kossars have STAND and SHOOT (Which means they can defend TWICE when being charged!!!)
- Winged lancers and gryphon legion have glorious charge rule.... (When charging in front, it IS like from the flank... - You'll get the FLANK bonus!!)
(Now imagine you use the GL in the front and knights from the flank.....- you have a DOUBLE flank bonus :-P :-P :-P :-P)
Disadvantages. (According to the GW Rules - NOT unofficial ones....)
- It consumes MASSIVE points (mostly to Tsar or Tsarina and i prefer the tsarina)
- Kislev DOESN'T have rare units
- Kislev DOESN'T have artillery
- Kislev CAN'T be used as main force - ONLY as a contingent.
- It can't use DoW
I use the contingent ONLY in a 3000+ battle... but THEN it can make a difference... :laugh:
What they do to kislev in the 8th edtion; we'll have to wait and see....
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Did they truly just drop Kislev in 8th edition? :(
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I hope not. But it can't be too much of a problem in friendly games I suppose. Then again, I don't know the 8th edition rules, so perhaps their special rules are now completely outdated. (especially glorious charge IMO)
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I think that with the Kislev army, they should make some of the units either Special or Rare for a regular empire army to include them. If the army is led by the Tsar or Ice Queen then they can become core / regular for example. They went through and made this really cool model range for them, and then just stopped talking about them really.
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Kossar get Light Armour....
As mentioned Winged Lancers/ Gryphon Legion cause fear on the charge instead of panic...I wouldn't mind seeing some slightly different rules/stats to differentiate between Lancers and Legion
Shield option for Ungol Horse archers
Well, we all want Kislev back, don't we ;)
I'd keep the rules the same, with the following changes:
- Kislev kossars and boyars are armed with axes (+1 Str)
- A Boyar may not take a handgun or a pistol
- A boyar costs 60 points
Any other suggestions?
So are you just suggesting the Kislev axes are inessances Halberds instead of GW? I have no problem with the pistols or handgun, it would be a sign of status to having a firearm instead of a bow. I would put the Boyar at 65 points like Mr Carloff said
Why in heaven's name is a Boyar 90 points, while an Empire captain is (and was in 6th edition already), 50 points?!
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Did they truly just drop Kislev in 8th edition? :(
There's no mention officially, but maybe all hope is not dead cause Kislev does get a mention in the rule book blurb on the Empire in the bit on Knightly Orders where it talks about Kislevite Cavalrymen keeping plate clad bears. It's a possible link to Forge World stuff being released, the same section talks of demi-gryffs and on eof those has been recently release there. You never know.
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Sigh, I want a kislev army.
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I don't understand why GW dropped the Kislev thing, I suppose because of lack of sales, or maybe too many humie armies. But there's always plenty of interest in all things Kislev on W-E.com and if anything goes up on ebay it always goes/sells very well with lots of interest.
Kislev was hamstrung by a half-assed set of rules. Having to take them as part of an empire army was bad enough, but it was even worse that the units weren't very well designed.
The one comment I heard over and over again regarding Kislev, was that the models were awesome but the rules sucked. Having a very limited and pricey model range probably didn't help either.
Somewhere along the line GW decided they didn't want any more human armies, and that Empire and Bretonnia were enough. I find that to be poor reasoning, since there are THREE kinds of elves, and at least 4 chaos armies (Warriors, Demons, Beastmen, Skaven).
Sadly though, Brettonia is not a particularly popular army so it is unlikely we'll see another human army like DoW or Kislev return any time soon. I think we'll see the return of Choas Dwarves before we see any other new armies, since the darker grittier CDs have been so popular.
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I think empire greatswords should get str 4, i never find that they stand up to enemy elites as well as they should, plus they cost alot of money and arent as good as other armies models of equal price. if inner circle knights and elven elite units(gag) can get str 4 then greatswords should have it, i mean it is a 6 foot long piece of steel
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I was just on the Mirliton website and found these 'Horse Raiders of the Steppes' in their Fantasy Humans range - perfect Kislevite cav.
Praag destroyed multiple times ?
No prob, the real life equivalents of Kislev didn't fare much better.
Moscow, Kiev, Kazan, etc. were overrun by horde after horde of Goblins, erm, Mongols for centuries.
Poland has been ripped to shreds between Germany and Russia more times than anyone cares to count.
The map of central Europe east of Vienna has changed so many times - even very recently - printing maps with the new borders is almost pointless....
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Well, we all want Kislev back, don't we ;)
I'd keep the rules the same, with the following changes:
- Kislev kossars and boyars are armed with axes (+1 Str)
- A Boyar may not take a handgun or a pistol
- A boyar costs 60 points
Any other suggestions?
Hello Obi. My suggestions are a Boyar costs should be a 65-70 pst. He got Stubborn.
Stubborn is worth 15-20 points? (Empire captain is 50).
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GW being all about the money started WAY before 5th.........
I'm no economist, but the logic of just dropping entire lines of minis still escapes me.
Ok, so Chaos Dwarves, Dogs of War, Kislevites et. al. may not be the best selling miniatures in your arsenal, but there are satill people out there who will buy them.
I personally know several people who have quit the hobby entirely because their favorite army was retired.
I guess this is the interstate rest stop mentality: If you don't like the nfood/coffee/gas prices - leave.
There are already 5000 suckahs lined up behind you who'll gladly take your place......
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What I also don't get, in Ravening Hordes and 6th edition an Empire Knightly Order Knight is 23 points (ok, 24 in RH). A Kislev Winged Lancer was 15 points in RH with Leadership 7 and light armor and got 24 points in the Kislev Army Book with Leadership 8, heavy armour and Glorious Charge.
So is lacking full plate armour and a barded warhorse but including Glorious Charge justifying the fact that a Winged Lancer costs 24 and a Knightly Order Knight 23?
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I was in my local hobby store recently and I (over)heard these two guys talking about gw releasing new DoW, Kislev and Araby armies.
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I was in my local hobby store recently and I (over)heard these two guys talking about gw releasing new DoW, Kislev and Araby armies.
Huh, I was in my local today as well and heard vamps were the next army in jan
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I think at least one of the guys was an ex gw store worker
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For my thoughts they may bring Kislev back. It could be a nice complement for Empire or on their own:
Lords: Druzhina, High Sorceress (Ice Magic is a women's thing, otherwise beast, shadow or life)
Hero's: Boyar, Sorceress (Ice Magic, baest, shadow or life)
Core: cossars (shortbow + great weapon), streltsi (halberd, handgun), cossacks (scimitar: sword with armour piercing & buckler or shield), ungol horse archers, cossack riders (mounted, spear & shield, fast cav), winged lancers
Special: esauls (heavy armour, bear cloack for extra save against shooting, halberds, stubborn), gryphon legion, some light artillery
Rare: War Wagon, here it comes... As all 8th edition armies seem to get some kind of monstrous infantry or cavalry: polar bear riders!!!!
I know I would use them...
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Sadly though, Brettonia is not a particularly popular army
It's because all the Bret army consists of is four near identical types of cartoon knights, and rubbish peasants. Boring to look at unless they're themed, boring to play as and against, and boring to paint. They're like the Necrons of Fantasy.
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Kislev will never see it's own book. It would've been nice to see them included in 8th ed Empire somewhere. But as I posted elsewhere, the author of our newest book doesn't even know this site exists.....or chooses to ignore any and all input. And I am a fan of Kislev. So much character there that could've been maximised by GW, and they've missed it....but our models have become cost prohibitive for the normal player.
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I have a Tzar and Tzarina as well as 40 Kossars. I used to have a ton of cavalry and regret trading them away. If it wasn't so expensive I would consider using those models in an Empire army.
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Way back in the good old days, when you could actually buy bitz individually, I bought 20 of the metal feathered banners. When 7th ed pistoliers came out I did a unit of 10 winged lancer conversions and 10 Gryphon Legion. Envision pistoliers with empire knight arms and the old metal winged back banners. My girlfriend is of Russian decent so I made them up for her to go with the old Tzarina model (but she's mounted on Bretonnian "Green Knight" horse.....again, bought when bitz were truly bitz). The only positive I've seen is the sculptors have gotten better over the years.
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from france
modhein can had a few ccharacters and warmaster have a more units. you can build your army on this.