Warhammer-Empire.com
Warhammer-Empire Website => The Town Guild Hall ... => The Visiting Embassy => Topic started by: Bartolo Miachevelia on December 03, 2017, 09:02:50 AM
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Here, take five mins and let them know how you miss the original Warhammer. :x
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/30/say-big-community-survey-nov-30gw-homepage-post-1/ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/30/say-big-community-survey-nov-30gw-homepage-post-1/)
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Done.
Some of the questions are rather hard to answer if you don't play their currently promoted games, but I did let them know I would like them to re-release their classic games and their old boxed sets.
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Done too. Funnily enough, although I had not read your comment Konrad, I asked for the same!!!!
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I hope they bring back the Old world, I miss it soo much.... :icon_cry: :icon_cry: :icon_cry:
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Just do not forhet to refer in all free text to Warhammer Fantasy Battle.
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I got a 503 error, whatever that is, and so currently haven't participated. :icon_frown:
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I did it yesterday or the day before. Even as a supporter of age of sigmar, any of the fill in the blank spots made sure to mention Fantasy and the other old specialist games.
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Just do not forhet to refer in all free text to Warhammer Fantasy Battle.
Oh I did not forget ... I put it in everything.
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I got through to do the survey! :icon_biggrin:
The world of WFB mentioned repeatedly. :::cheers:::
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Done. Thanks for that. I was pretty genuine. Will be curious to see what happens next.
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remember new coke ( 80's) and how horrible it was? then they brought back coke classic and what a great day. I told GW to do the same thing bring back Warhammer classic lol
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Thing is, I think AoS has done a lot of things well:
- Supported well
- some fresh fluff and models (khardon overlords, sylvaneth bugs)
- some simplification of factions
I just hate:
- how complicated they made it to transition
- the cost of new models
- some of the silly fluff around realms
- the simplification of the rules
- bunches of new special rules
- stupid IP version names of things
- no more ranked combat (circle bases)
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yup...plus I want the old world back ..heck make it one of the worlds within the realms of nutso crazy crap. Allow rank and file by using movement trays with circles to rank models up. :dry:
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Just do not forhet to refer in all free text to Warhammer Fantasy Battle.
Sure did!
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Done. Shame that they're talking about Warhammer: Age of Sigmar and not Warhammer Fantasy Battle. :dry:
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At least they've included spots where we can write in WFB. :icon_cool:
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There was actually a question (maybe 2) where Fantasy Battles was one of the options. I think it was something about what books or lore do you read the most of. There was definitely and actual option for Fantasy plus AoS in there.
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Done. Shame that they're talking about Warhammer: Age of Sigmar and not Warhammer Fantasy Battle. :dry:
Otherwise Warhammer would always have won :happy:
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Done. Shame that they're talking about Warhammer: Age of Sigmar and not Warhammer Fantasy Battle. :dry:
Otherwise Warhammer would always have won :happy:
Without a doubt. :smile2:
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I'm probably going to upset you all. As games, I'd play AoS over WFB any day, and I've been doing this since 3rd ed. When it came to favourite fiction setting though, I picked The Old World over the Mortal Realms. Though the rumoured stuff Black Library are coming up, and Cubicle 7 with the RPG for AoS looks like next year will start to really establish itself as a setting, but I would happily read any new fiction set in the World That Was
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I'm probably going to upset you all. As games, I'd play AoS over WFB any day, and I've been doing this since 3rd ed. When it came to favourite fiction setting though, I picked The Old World over the Mortal Realms. Though the rumoured stuff Black Library are coming up, and Cubicle 7 with the RPG for AoS looks like next year will start to really establish itself as a setting, but I would happily read any new fiction set in the World That Was
I would too. Not to mention that AoS does have a better and clearer mechanic. Not that I preffer it, over WFB, especially 6th edition.
C.L. Werner, when I interviewd him, said that before normal people begun to appear in Mortal Reams, he thought of AoS as a very shallow setting. This coming from an actual BL author. :biggriin:
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I think he's doing an Order of Azyr (Witch Hunters) series, which should begin to come out next year, which I'm really looking forward to.
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I'm probably going to upset you all. As games, I'd play AoS over WFB any day, and I've been doing this since 3rd ed. When it came to favourite fiction setting though, I picked The Old World over the Mortal Realms. Though the rumoured stuff Black Library are coming up, and Cubicle 7 with the RPG for AoS looks like next year will start to really establish itself as a setting, but I would happily read any new fiction set in the World That Was
I’ve only played since 6th ed but I really like the AoS format. I absolutely loved the old world BL work and would still buy books if they were written. But I like the mortal realms stuff too. I’ve read everything except the major chaos and death books and as they progress , so does the fluff. The last 2 books I particularly enjoyed the expanding overlord stuff and as Xath says, cl Werner just takes it further.
I can’t say at this point which I like more. So much of the old world style has crept through in the new settings. The new dwarves are exactly like the old with more tech.
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I think he's doing an Order of Azyr (Witch Hunters) series, which should begin to come out next year, which I'm really looking forward to.
Yeah and they're supposed to be a complete different thing to your "standard" Witch Hunters too!
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I'll like AoS and its setting when I'll plant rusty nails on my head like Snorri :biggriin:
Mortal Realm was a name for the World of Warhammer which the new game shamelessy pillaged
(https://s2.postimg.org/nczngi96x/mortalrealms.jpg)
the RPG of the new setting will be like Planescape wih Warhammer characters and wannabe spacemarines.
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Quote Bartolo: I'll like AoS and its setting when I'll plant rusty nails on my head like Snorri :biggriin:
Ha! I don’t think your point of view can be any clearer 😸
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Yes, Bartolo nailed it.
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Yes, Bartolo nailed it.
The puns never end with you, Fidelis. :biggriin:
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Alas, I seem to suffer from "hit-and-pun" antics.
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The best that I ever came up with, was stuff like: "it was an axeident" or "knife to meet you". :icon_redface:
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Unfortunately are holes in those come-backs.
I am curious, what does T9A think about all the old timers filling in the survey to bring back WHFB. Do they see it as a risk?
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I am curious, what does T9A think about all the old timers filling in the survey to bring back WHFB. Do they see it as a risk?
Not an issue, but let's examine it.
There are several risks implied in your question:
1) GW publishes WH9.
2) Unofficial WH8.5 develops.
3) Old timers stick to WH8.
Let's analyse.
1) GW business is to sell models. Old timers who have shelves of unused models are not a good target. GW will not bring back WH, and certainly not for the sake of old timers. And why would they bother to spend resources on WH9 when T9A does a sufficient job which costs them nothing?
2) Many initiatives already. All face IP risk, which is actual. None benefit from same volunteer resources as T9A.
3) The nostalgia for WH8 was what gave T9A the energy to start and proceed on. Better nostalgic old timers than old timers who renounced the hobby and give it no thought anymore.
So the risk is not actual.
Now, let's go a step further and imagine what if...?
1-a) What if GW retconned the Old World and made WH9 stealing good ideas from T9A? Well, excellent news for Hobbyists! Two competing providers force both of them to the highest quality. Instead of having one high quality game which was the goal of T9A community, we would have two of them! What's not to love?
1-b) What if GW bought somehow T9A? Well, to have full coop of T9A, they would have to agree with T9A principles, which would be a huge win for Hobbyists.
2) What if NewWarHammer was developing? See 1-a.
3) What if nostagic players keep playing WH8? If they manage to initiate new blood, all the better. When people will try T9A system, they will compare to WH8, and will stick to T9A. For the fluff, well, at the moment, WH has more, but in the long run, T9A will have more, and more consistent.
So the consequences are not adverse.
Risk = probability x consequences.
Low probability, no worrying consequences => negligible risk.
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What Calisson said. Seriously, T9A is the best thing that possibly could happen to GW. A game that GW doesn't need to spend a penny to develop, and which miniatures produced by GW are eminently suited for. That's how things have been for ages over at the historical wargaming side - different companies make miniatures and publish rules. GW could make mad bux (quidz?) by re-releasing their old miniatures again, call them "GW Classics" or whatever, nominally as a favour to collectors and grognards playing their old games, and pretending not to notice T9A but secretly taking it into consideration in business decision-making. It would cost GW little to do so in upfront investment, they'd just need to dust off old moulds. It would perfectly fit their new doctrine of being a miniatures company rather than a gaming company.
So yeah, killing T9A would be a patently stupid thing for GW to do. But then, we're talking about GW here, so that's no assurance that they wouldn't try to do it. If they do, well, T9A 2.0 is around the corner. Even if it will be the last T9A to come out before it dies, I will be happy for years playing it. If GW kills T9A, we will make the dead walk the Earth :-D
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I repeatedly mentioned "Bring back the Old World" and "I miss Stirland".
And i wrote a WALL about how I miss Warhammer Fantasy battles and the Old World.
I suggested they should bring back the possibility of playing in the Old World using the rules for AoS. An official Expanison.
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To continue on what I said, some time ago an estimate was posted in the T9A general forum of the magnitude of the total work effort spent on making T9A 2.0. It came up as high as 136,000 hours over all volunteers combined, and that was a conservative estimate, and just on getting from 1.3 to 2.0, not counting what it took to get to 1.3. Just imagine if a game company were to make that kind of effort developing a game, the expense would be counted in millions.
All that for a game that has made me spend a silly amount on Empire miniatures, in order to avail myself of all kinds of options that weren't previously viable due to poor game balance. Money of which most has gone to other companies than GW, but could be GW's for the taking if it were to produce miniatures to accommodate my preference.
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Let's analyse.
1) GW business is to sell models. Old timers who have shelves of unused models are not a good target. GW will not bring back WH, and certainly not for the sake of old timers. And why would they bother to spend resources on WH9 when T9A does a sufficient job which costs them nothing?
They probably will not bring it back because they're not able able to. If they weren't incompetent we'd not have ten years of decadence (7th and 8th ed.).
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Double post:
results avaible in January https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/17/big-community-survey-thanks-taking-part/ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/17/big-community-survey-thanks-taking-part/)
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Double post:
results avaible in January https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/17/big-community-survey-thanks-taking-part/ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/17/big-community-survey-thanks-taking-part/)
Now this is interesting. I'm really curious about people's votes and answers.
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Hmmm ... in reading that, maybe they'll release some of the results, yet not sure how much we'll really see.
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I have a sneaky suspicion that Warhammer Community will be reporting that everything is awesome and fantastic and pure dead brilliant, and everyone loves what they've done with 40K and AoS and they're totally taking on board all our feedback that we want more biggerer tanks and monsters and deffo *loads* of Primarchs.
Just a feeling like...
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I have a sneaky suspicion that Warhammer Community will be reporting that everything is awesome and fantastic and pure dead brilliant, and everyone loves what they've done with 40K and AoS and they're totally taking on board all our feedback that we want more biggerer tanks and monsters and deffo *loads* of Primarchs.
Just a feeling like...
It's more than likely, aye.
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Gw employees when asked about Warhammer:
(http://www.jonathancrossfield.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/three_monkeys1223864894.jpg)
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To be honest I disagree. There's been a huge change in GW over the past year or so. It's not a full change, and there are still things to complain about, but they've opened themselves up to the community by a huge extent. The survey is one example. Old GW would never even have bothered.
That's not to mention how their doing in 40k. Actual playtesting, inviting the big tournaments/events and players to participate in playtesting, FAQ's actually on a regular basis and quickly. They do the same in AoS as well.
I get that there's a lot of bitterness left over from how they ended fantasy, not to mention the years of abuse they heaped on long time players, but I really do think we're seeing some changes to that.
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I agree, the new GW is much, much better than the old one. Open, social media-friendly, listening to their customers. I love it.
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There'd have not been need of a survey for these simple reasons:
Warhammer existed and had the best fluff and artists.
Annual manuals with FAQ and rules revision ( Warhammer Chronicles) and selection of WD articles.
Free downloadable rules for skirmishes and smaller games on GW site( Skirmish, Path to Glory, Warhammer Warbands) plus wallpapers,tutorials for painting, converting and sceneries and much more material on the old Gw site.
Listening to community when they did Dark elves errata (dark elves forum sent a letter to GW) plus answering mails in WDs.
Campaign books plus General's Compendium plus paper catalogues.
Proper Games Days with previews and Golden Demons held in different countries.
Eeeeew all that sucked! :biggriin:
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All that stuffs great, your listing off plenty of things I loved about the hobby, but it's all also a decade if not more old. In between that we all know GW went through a very bad period where the marketing people seem to have taken over. The important thing I think is that we seem to be changing BACK to those glory days. I for one hope they continue in their current direction.
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Problem is it's no use talking to us if they're talking about something we've no interest in. In an abstract sense tighter rules is a good thing, so is more communication, but I don't care about AoS and I didn't want timeline advancement for 40K(and don't like the result). Since they're highly unlikely to actually listen if what's being said is "bring back the WHF setting" or "stop adding Primarchs to 40K they don't belong there" and so on, practically things are no different.
Obviously you'll get a lot more out of their new attitude - to whatever extent it proves to be genuine in the longer term - if you like AoS as an IP, or if your main enjoyment comes from playing the actual game more than anything else, but if the fiction specifically of WHF and 40K as-was are your jam GW are still pretty much GW.
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Wait, isn't this thread suppose to be about a survey? :icon_lol:
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All that stuffs great, your listing off plenty of things I loved about the hobby, but it's all also a decade if not more old. In between that we all know GW went through a very bad period where the marketing people seem to have taken over. The important thing I think is that we seem to be changing BACK to those glory days. I for one hope they continue in their current direction.
Marketing people. You are far too kind. I would have said something like "Business school bros who know conventional business wisdom, but know little to nothing about the actual product they're selling."
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So Marketing?
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Not just marketing, but overall business strategy. One anecdote that never gets old in illustrating what happened to GW is (quoting from memory here) the notion uttered by some bigwig at GW that their key customers are those with annual household incomes of £50,000 and above, that the other poor plebs don't interest them. Business school bro wisdom at its best. Wisdom that might make conventional sense if you don't realize that without that community of poor plebs to play with, that rich high-spender wouldn't buy a shit-ton of GW products that mostly end up in a big pile of unpainted grey plastic and white metal.
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I have a sneaky suspicion that Warhammer Community will be reporting that everything is awesome and fantastic and pure dead brilliant, and everyone loves what they've done with 40K and AoS and they're totally taking on board all our feedback that we want more biggerer tanks and monsters and deffo *loads* of Primarchs.
Just a feeling like...
It's more than likely, aye.
I'd also say more than likely, but because that's the impression I get overall from my hobby friends, they like the direction both systems are going. And judging overall from discussion sites, Facebook, and other places that's the overall impression I get from the people commenting.
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There'd have not been need of a survey for these simple reasons:
Warhammer existed and had the best fluff and artists.
Annual manuals with FAQ and rules revision ( Warhammer Chronicles) and selection of WD articles.
Free downloadable rules for skirmishes and smaller games on GW site( Skirmish, Path to Glory, Warhammer Warbands) plus wallpapers,tutorials for painting, converting and sceneries and much more material on the old Gw site.
Listening to community when they did Dark elves errata (dark elves forum sent a letter to GW) plus answering mails in WDs.
Campaign books plus General's Compendium plus paper catalogues.
Proper Games Days with previews and Golden Demons held in different countries.
Eeeeew all that sucked! :biggriin:
I don't think they'll ever go back to Warhammer as it was. While as enjoyable as it was, the world itself made Lizardmen fighting Empire a stretch unless it took place in the Empire, and there's not much room left in the World that Was to create any new kind faction. It had become stagnant. While the Mortal Realms have barely begun being explored, and have the scope to be so indefinitely.
However, for the rest of your comments - in the last 18 months things have changed. There is now an annual Generals' Handbook and Chapter Approved which will updated some minor changes to the core rules for matched play, and changes to points to try and balance things out.
There is a place for FAQs, which are now updated more frequently, with a new one coming out around a month after a new book is released, and they said there would be reviews of FAQs every few months
Skirmish and Path to Glory are pretty cheap supplements £6 and £15, and the Path to Glory one is much more expanded upon in it's current version.
There are daily videos for painting tips, every White Dwarf has painting sections, and there are frequent articles on the Warhammer Community site, and every other Tuesday they do a live stream on Twitch where you can ask about painting tips and more.
Dark Elves came out in the dark times, where you're right, they ignored all the above. But I would bet if a new Aelf Battletome came out now, there would be an FAQ about a month later.
There was a global summer campaign - Seasons of War in 2016 and Fate of Konor in 2017. AoS started with 5 campaign books. it looks likely there will be more in the next couple of months for Malign Portents. The General's Handbook doesn't just cover points updates, but features new ways to play and add things to games, Siege warfare was in this years book. I would think a printed catalogue for the full range is a little old fashioned these days. They were giving away a small gift guide catalogue in their stores and with orders leading up to christmas, but it only covered core stuff, and the start collecting and bundle boxes, plus a paint and tools list, plus a few recent releases.
Warhammer Fest last year had a heat of the AoS Grand Tournament, had a few previews for 40k and AoS, though still it was more Forge world and Specialist Games showing off stuff. but they have over the last year previewed stuff at major tournaments, and game exhibitions.
So they are now doing a lot of those things you wanted. Maybe not perfectly, and 2 years ago, we would have wished for all of it, but now we're getting most of it
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There'd have not been need of a survey for these simple reasons:
Warhammer existed and had the best fluff and artists.
Annual manuals with FAQ and rules revision ( Warhammer Chronicles) and selection of WD articles.
Free downloadable rules for skirmishes and smaller games on GW site( Skirmish, Path to Glory, Warhammer Warbands) plus wallpapers,tutorials for painting, converting and sceneries and much more material on the old Gw site.
Listening to community when they did Dark elves errata (dark elves forum sent a letter to GW) plus answering mails in WDs.
Campaign books plus General's Compendium plus paper catalogues.
Proper Games Days with previews and Golden Demons held in different countries.
Eeeeew all that sucked! :biggriin:
I don't think they'll ever go back to Warhammer as it was. While as enjoyable as it was, the world itself made Lizardmen fighting Empire a stretch unless it took place in the Empire, and there's not much room left in the World that Was to create any new kind faction. It had become stagnant. While the Mortal Realms have barely begun being explored, and have the scope to be so indefinitely.
However, for the rest of your comments - in the last 18 months things have changed. There is now an annual Generals' Handbook and Chapter Approved which will updated some minor changes to the core rules for matched play, and changes to points to try and balance things out.
There is a place for FAQs, which are now updated more frequently, with a new one coming out around a month after a new book is released, and they said there would be reviews of FAQs every few months
Skirmish and Path to Glory are pretty cheap supplements £6 and £15, and the Path to Glory one is much more expanded upon in it's current version.
There are daily videos for painting tips, every White Dwarf has painting sections, and there are frequent articles on the Warhammer Community site, and every other Tuesday they do a live stream on Twitch where you can ask about painting tips and more.
Dark Elves came out in the dark times, where you're right, they ignored all the above. But I would bet if a new Aelf Battletome came out now, there would be an FAQ about a month later.
There was a global summer campaign - Seasons of War in 2016 and Fate of Konor in 2017. AoS started with 5 campaign books. it looks likely there will be more in the next couple of months for Malign Portents. The General's Handbook doesn't just cover points updates, but features new ways to play and add things to games, Siege warfare was in this years book. I would think a printed catalogue for the full range is a little old fashioned these days. They were giving away a small gift guide catalogue in their stores and with orders leading up to christmas, but it only covered core stuff, and the start collecting and bundle boxes, plus a paint and tools list, plus a few recent releases.
Warhammer Fest last year had a heat of the AoS Grand Tournament, had a few previews for 40k and AoS, though still it was more Forge world and Specialist Games showing off stuff. but they have over the last year previewed stuff at major tournaments, and game exhibitions.
So they are now doing a lot of those things you wanted. Maybe not perfectly, and 2 years ago, we would have wished for all of it, but now we're getting most of it
^+1
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Not just marketing, but overall business strategy. One anecdote that never gets old in illustrating what happened to GW is (quoting from memory here) the notion uttered by some bigwig at GW that their key customers are those with annual household incomes of £50,000 and above, that the other poor plebs don't interest them. Business school bro wisdom at its best. Wisdom that might make conventional sense if you don't realize that without that community of poor plebs to play with, that rich high-spender wouldn't buy a shit-ton of GW products that mostly end up in a big pile of unpainted grey plastic and white metal.
I think something similar to that was mentioned in a AGM stock market report or something from the old CEO Tom Kirby. He wrote a lot of nonsense in some of those, which did nothing but annoy fans. One of them said that they would never do Market Research. Fortunately the new CEO Kevin Rountree seems to be steering the company in a better direction
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There'd have not been need of a survey for these simple reasons:
Warhammer existed and had the best fluff and artists.
Annual manuals with FAQ and rules revision ( Warhammer Chronicles) and selection of WD articles.
Free downloadable rules for skirmishes and smaller games on GW site( Skirmish, Path to Glory, Warhammer Warbands) plus wallpapers,tutorials for painting, converting and sceneries and much more material on the old Gw site.
Listening to community when they did Dark elves errata (dark elves forum sent a letter to GW) plus answering mails in WDs.
Campaign books plus General's Compendium plus paper catalogues.
Proper Games Days with previews and Golden Demons held in different countries.
Eeeeew all that sucked! :biggriin:
I don't think they'll ever go back to Warhammer as it was. While as enjoyable as it was, the world itself made Lizardmen fighting Empire a stretch unless it took place in the Empire, and there's not much room left in the World that Was to create any new kind faction. It had become stagnant.
This is a common sentiment among people who appreciate AoS, and it's nonsense on toast.
We'll deal with the second point first and then go back to the first: no room for new factions? If they ransacked the history, myths, and folklore of the Middle East and Asia in the same way they did to Europe's, they could double the number of factions without breaking a sweat, and many of them would be just as outlandish and fantastical as what we've seen from AoS. Hell they hadn't even finished mining European stuff - Tilea and Estalia were little more than names and some broad archetypes, the Border Princes were rarely explored and never in any detail, even Norsca could have stood fleshing out more. So aye, without even going outside the Old World - Estalian Tercios, Tilean Condottieri, revamped Fimir, and a more explicitly-themed Norscan subfaction for Chaos. Araby and the Southlands could get you half a dozen more. Then you start along the Silk Road and don't stop until you hit Nippon, tapping some of the richest cultures on earth for ideas, you'd be at it for decades. EDIT: And that's just "present day" - you could get another decade or two's worth of releases by going back and covering War of Vengeance/ancient Nehekara-era, the proper age of Sigmar ie Warhammer Dark Ages, the not-Crusades and so on, and again that's just the existing history for the existing Old World factions, throw the southern and eastern lands and cultures into the mix and you again potentially double or more the amount of material.
As to the first problem - that was a problem of GW's own making, to the extent it actually exists at all(your chosen example isn't really an obstacle at all - the various New World colonies may not have lasted very long individually other than Skeggi, but there were a lot of them spread out over the centuries). They're the ones who insisted on focusing every narrative, every army book on the biggest, most world-shattering, most AWESUM *guitar solo* scale conflicts because they wanted to sell miniatures and simply couldn't grasp the idea that making people want to buy lots of your models is a better tactic than trying to force them to buy lots of your models by focusing exclusively on clash of civilisations catastrofiction with army sizes to match. Yeah, it's hard to come up with plausible reasons for huge armies from opposite sides of the world to clash constantly - so don't try. Focus on the kind of conflicts that the type of setting can support; when you target your narratives down to more everyday heroes and their reasonably-sized skirmish warbands of say 30-70ish models it's much easier to plausibly have them end up all over the place, because they would be. Raiding, tomb robbing, slaving, artifact hunting, seeking revenge or looking for new trade opportunities, a world like Warhammer's should be teeming with modest wandering warbands from every race constantly coming into conflict with "the locals" and each other. And don't try claiming you can't tell "epic" stories at that scale, because I read plenty of them in Black Library novels. The "minifactions" approach would work just as well for WHF as for AoS, with a little thought, and makes perfect sense at the more modest end of the army size scale.
They could quite easily have reworked WHFB along the broad lines of the LotR game, ie an AoS-style "skirmish" game as the baseline, with a streamlined rank & flank expansion for depicting larger conflicts if players wanted to.
The real reason for the switch, of course, has nothing to do with the Warhammer World being "stagnant", or lacking in opportunities to expand - GW want to write about Fantasy Horus battling Fantasy Emperor with their legions of goodie and baddie Fantasy Marines, and on the odd occasion when they deign to throw some support to non-Fantasy Marine style factions they don't want to have to be constrained by their own previous material in order to maintain internal consistency, so they simply wrote a setting that doesn't require internal consistency at all.
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Thats not entirely true. They also wanted to rename every race to something more... trademarkable.
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Yep, plenty of room to not be stagnant in the Olde World, but heck, when they want try to trademark faction names, might as well try blowing up the Olde World. Oh, and create Sigmarine and steampunk dwart factions. :icon_rolleyes:
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Thats not entirely true. They also wanted to rename every race to something more... trademarkable.
Dawi,Druchii,Asur, Asrai,Skaven,Khemri....
So they are now doing a lot of those things you wanted. Maybe not perfectly, and 2 years ago, we would have wished for all of it, but now we're getting most of it
It wasn't stagnant : when they did The Warhammer Realms: Lustria they said they'd have done more books like that exploring different Warhammer realms then there were thousands of years of history not explored. And there's no need in the fluff to have everyone fight everyone like you never had Landsknechts against Samurais in real history. Not everything has to be possible in a fantasy or else you get aos .
And then the worst and ironic thing : the game that cancelled Warhammer making pass Skirmish, Path to Glory as its own ideas. Like having Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower which is not set in the Mortal Realm of Warhammer and not in the Silver Tower of van Horstmann.
I've never wanted Faqs and similar things for the sake of them, there're many other companies who do previews and keep their game updated but they don't interest me, it was about Warhammer.
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See, I was one of the people who did get annoyed trying to figure out why armies were actually fighting each other. The lore was amazing and important, but it was important because of the armies we played. It could get tiring trying to come up with campaigns explaining why my friends lizardmen where fighting my Karak-Hirn dwarves or Hochland Empire, with wood elves and tomb kings in the mix as well. Warhammer has always been about a setting for the game.
I also felt the Old world could get very crowded. There was a map that showed exactly what the world was like and were factions were. There were a few that could explored, I always wanted Cathay and Ind, but many of them were just more humans. Adding another new fantasy race would take a fair bit of explaining and need to be shoehorned in. Why is there suddenly a big kingdom of things in an area that's never been there before?
On top of that the Old World has been incredibly generic in many, many of it's attributes. It's great and one of the reasons I loved it and got into it, but from a company's business prospective that can lead to lots of problems. Trademarking, copyright, moving stuff forward and around, whatever. I can understand, even if I don't like it, why they did it.
They also bottlenecked themselves in from a fluff perspective. They'd locked themselves into a "The world WILL end and it Will end soon!!!!" narrative. They've managed to fix that to some degree in 40k, and perhaps it would have worked the same way in Fantasy if they'd gone that direction. Going back and doing historical event stuff is a great idea from a lore perspective, but from a model one all I can really see them being able to do is special characters. Everyone's still using bows and swords. There's no room for wacky inventions or big stuff, which again as a business they clearly want to do.
Out of curiosity, how many of you guys have been reading the new AoS fluff and lore that's been coming out? I see a lot of people complain about how there's no depths or consistency, but a lot of the recent stuff has been working to fix exactly that.
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I also find it interesting that this kind of discussion takes over on a thread about GW putting out a community survey. It really seems like every discussion sooner or later turns back to the same thing. People unhappy about how Fantasy ended. I wrote plenty about that IN the survey, I hope others did as well. I doubt it will do anything, but at least your voice will be heard.
Fantasy and AoS aside, I really do think the new leadership at GW is starting a better path. A lot more focus on the community for one.
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Quote.Gankom: Fantasy and AoS aside, I really do think the new leadership at GW is starting a better path. A lot more focus on the community for one.
This is the fact. You will always have the polarized views but their new direction is successful for both fantasy and 40k. It has revitalized their company and will surely show in the company statements coming up. Especially in an age where where electronic games have seemed to dominate and drown the physical fun of this hobby. I was a diehard fan of the old world in both games and invested thousands in models, books, codexes and such from 2005-2011. Now I’m rejuvinating almost every bit I’ve invested and find I have a lot more freedom and diversity to work with. Just getting the 40k back online and spent the last 1 1/2 with AoS and love it just as much. I feel a bit bad for the peeps who where so drawn to the old system but it’s all a matter of what they like. There is a lot of paths they could have taken but fantasy was pretty much dead in the water a few years ago. We had a smal but die hard community but most of the stock stayed on the shelf and almost no one was buying it. 40k seemed to carry the load.
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I have to say, I find it a little infuriating when people use the state fantasy ended up in as justification for ending it, when the state it ended up in was entirely GW's fault and had nothing whatsoever to do with the setting.
AoS, the IP, is not the reason GW's fantasy sales are up, all of the things they've been doing *around* the IP - community engagement, rapid and regular rules amendments, event support, narrative content and so on - are the reason and they could have worked just as well for the WHF IP.
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I've become less angry about it, time has passed. However, the state of fantasy was definitely a GW created issue. No one can say they weren't creative in trying to resolve it, yet completely taking out the Olde World didn't need to happen, and W:AoS still could have arisen with in the context of the Olde World.
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AoS, the IP, is not the reason GW's fantasy sales are up, all of the things they've been doing *around* the IP - community engagement, rapid and regular rules amendments, event support, narrative content and so on - are the reason and they could have worked just as well for the WHF IP.
:::cheers::: Even the survey has potential, yet we'll see.
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I have to say, I find it a little infuriating when people use the state fantasy ended up in as justification for ending it, when the state it ended up in was entirely GW's fault and had nothing whatsoever to do with the setting.
AoS, the IP, is not the reason GW's fantasy sales are up, all of the things they've been doing *around* the IP - community engagement, rapid and regular rules amendments, event support, narrative content and so on - are the reason and they could have worked just as well for the WHF IP.
Quite so.
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Quote yodhrin: AoS, the IP, is not the reason GW's fantasy sales are up, all of the things they've been doing *around* the IP - community engagement, rapid and regular rules amendments, event support, narrative content and so on - are the reason and they could have worked just as well for the WHF IP.
Not saying it couldn’t have worked. They just didn’t. And if it isn’t the new system the sales are up, why are they? They had a game that most people playing only needed bits and pieces to continue. Months would go by and nothing would move on the shelf. That’s bad business if you want it to flourish.
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Adding another new fantasy race would take a fair bit of explaining and need to be shoehorned in. Why is there suddenly a big kingdom of things in an area that's never been there before?
Thats precisely what Ogre Kingdoms were. I remember the scepticism when they were added in 6th, and I also liked how balanced they actually made them. Until 8th edition that is.
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I have to say, I find it a little infuriating when people use the state fantasy ended up in as justification for ending it, when the state it ended up in was entirely GW's fault and had nothing whatsoever to do with the setting.
AoS, the IP, is not the reason GW's fantasy sales are up, all of the things they've been doing *around* the IP - community engagement, rapid and regular rules amendments, event support, narrative content and so on - are the reason and they could have worked just as well for the WHF IP.
I am sorry if it's getting infuriating. In all honestly, I think I'm just equally annoyed how every discussion seems to just become another bitter pile in on what a disaster people feel it was. Like I said, even on a thread about GW finally ramping up community support and putting out surveys and listening to players, it keeps getting dragged back to "But they killed fantasy!"
I'd love the old world to come back. I still play it probably more then I play AoS. I just wish people could actually talk about something else without bringing it up non stop.
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I don't buy the notion either that they would have had to keep on releasing new armies all the time for the game to stay alive.
If they would just have released a properly balanced 9th edition where all units of all armies are points-costed correctly, that would have led to massive sales as people would have availed themselves of all kinds of options that weren't previously viable. All without GW having to do anything else than keep their existing production lines cranking out stuff.
Even if not, as long as the game is worth your time to play, people would have kept wanting more. More armies, expanding existing armies. How many players would really end up in a state of stasis where there's literally nothing more they'd like to have, paint or play with unless a new army is released?
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I don't buy the notion either that they would have had to keep on releasing new armies all the time for the game to stay alive.
If they would just have released a properly balanced 9th edition where all units of all armies are points-costed correctly, that would have led to massive sales as people would have availed themselves of all kinds of options that weren't previously viable. All without GW having to do anything else than keep their existing production lines cranking out stuff.
Even if not, as long as the game is worth your time to play, people would have kept wanting more. More armies, expanding existing armies. How many players would really end up in a state of stasis where there's literally nothing more they'd like to have, paint or play with unless a new army is released?
Agree with all the above except a stagnation did occur. Enough for them to toss the lot. 8th ed was probably the last nail in the coffin. In hindsight that hurt a lot of people and maybe the way out should have been like the change in 40 k. Didn’t wipe it out but definitely changed the parameters which it needed. They did learn something which included the audience in the process as well. It may be a catastrophic change but it allows the company to continue doing what it does. Certainly their might be room for the old world again in the future. At least there is a future that might be able to handle them again.
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To be honest, I think 8th edition and their pricing killed it.
They made the price to enter too high.
Units needing to 40-50 strong meant a significant investment to start an army, especially with boxes of 10 costing between $35-$70 AUD. Their box sets with multiple options may be easier for them to produce, but also raises the price because you are paying for more plastic than you need to use. Spare bits are good, but not everyone uses them, or stores them properly.
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👆 the unit sizes were getting extreme. However I was reading a thread in TGA about the fireslayers and they were talking normally about units of 90 to be really effective (!?). To me that’s insane and it takes away from having lots of variables. Not to say this is the norm of AoS but that shocked me.
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WTF
Yeah, sounds like the game could still be broken...?
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I think GW of late has again become the friendlier company it used to be. I would guess the present leadership would not have done exactly what the previous did, but then again the present leadership does not need to tighten the belt like the previous saw it had to. They sort of have a more professional business base to build on more optimistically and hobby-centric.
No, I don't think us oldtimers whishing WHFB back in that survey will ring a bell... Too many free mass-battles rules systems around, too many cheap plastic figures around, alternative or used.
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The 8th ed surely saw a significant loss in players/collectors. This loss is visible in the lack of new blood entering the hobby, and the stagnation of hobby and game related discussions. For example, this forum grew quieter during the 8th, a couple of years before the End Times. I cannot pinpoint an actual reason for this, and it might actually be about the changes in modern hobbies and the age structures. But talkin' of the 8th, some new key rules, focus shift from maneuvers to more killing (figures removed at a faster pace), unbalance within the books (some classic units remained/became rubbish), and bigger unit sizes (more figures needed for competitive play) likely alienated many old and potential new players. The GW policy of non-communicating surely didn't help. And the pricing of GW left room for competitors & the second hand market, and the Perry brothers leaving GW saw a huge loss of talent in the sculpting of the human factions, and the key game designers leaving GW meant a marked loss in ideas & variety.
Also there was something of an eight month hiatus of Fantasy sometime mid-8th ed, with no books and no figures. Whether that was the cause or an effect of GW decision to drop classic Fantasy I don't know, but it surely annoyed the customers even more.
(Yet for me personally, it was mainly the loudening voices of competitive players which alienated me from the gaming hobby and gaming discussions. This became a competitive sports where some very active & loud persons created a coach-like attitude. Cheap gurus for me.)
But GW, after all, is a company and the figures & games are a product. It's very, very exceptional for a company to continuously build on one game/product for 30 years. 30 years! Only Lego comes to my mind, and their visual image has changed a lot, and their thematic ranges tend to live only a couple years. Star Wars has a longer presence, but is more a series of new takes than building on some early 80's idea & figure scale range. And Star Wars gaming is a newer trend. Most games/product lines will never live 30 years, and their fans will have much less time in fandomizigin and building a connection. We were privileged, spoiled. And it's the spoiled children who are the hardest to bear.
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But all of that is history. I agree our moanings matter little, and everyone would be better doing what they like, not whining about what they don't like.
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You are all hedging around the cause of Fantasy's demise.
The final nail was when they stated 'we make miniatures' as they had totally lost the plot with the essence of the fact people played a game.
If they had applied the same attitude to the rules and codices that they seem to be doing now with 40K they would not have had a problem.
If Fantasy was a brilliant, balanced, fun game then the interest would be there - anywhere it was played observers would be excited by it and want to get involved.
Then 'value' starter boxes would get people in.
If the game attracts lots of new players then sales volume increases and they do not need to hike prices.
GOLDswords was another defining moment - the archer set was 10 models - c.95 pieces and £15.00 ............. The Greatswords was 10 models - some 65 pieces and £25.00
The only justification was Core v Special - crazy!
The other things mentioned like "other races", the 'Armageddon scenario' every couple of years, the ability for skirmish and warband levels using the same figures as you grow an army, are all manageable if the basic rules set is good.
It went downhill once the accountants had a bigger say than the hobbyists within the company.
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👆 the unit sizes were getting extreme. However I was reading a thread in TGA about the fireslayers and they were talking normally about units of 90 to be really effective (!?). To me that’s insane and it takes away from having lots of variables. Not to say this is the norm of AoS but that shocked me.
This. I was interested in using AoS as a skirmish system for the old setting. Finding that there were no point values and seeing some units got bonuses for being 20/30+ killed my initial curiosity.
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Adding another new fantasy race would take a fair bit of explaining and need to be shoehorned in. Why is there suddenly a big kingdom of things in an area that's never been there before?
Thats precisely what Ogre Kingdoms were. I remember the scepticism when they were added in 6th, and I also liked how balanced they actually made them. Until 8th edition that is.
There were quite a few possible ways of adding new armies creatively speaking - just look what CA did with Norsca. There was always Cathay and Araby that they could have added, not to mention proper Chaos Dwarfs and Dogs of War. If only they've created an entry level game ala Mordheim, to tempt in new blodd all could have been well.
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I hope enough folks commented on the survey regarding a return to Olde World that it happens some day.
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👆 the unit sizes were getting extreme. However I was reading a thread in TGA about the fireslayers and they were talking normally about units of 90 to be really effective (!?). To me that’s insane and it takes away from having lots of variables. Not to say this is the norm of AoS but that shocked me.
None of the Fyreslayers units can be larger than 30 in matched play. This is the typical maximum size for most infantry battleline units in the game. Only a handful are 40, and those are generally weak, and cheap boxes. And only Grots (Goblins) and zombies go above that to 60.
It is concerning in the General's Handbook that some units if they take the maximum size get a points discount, as if to encourage bugger units, but I've not really seen that used in many army builds I've seen in use. I think around half the matched play battleplans have objectives that can be won by having the most number of models within range, and it's competitive armies that I've seen larger units. However, large units are arguably more suspectible to battleshock
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I hope enough folks commented on the survey regarding a return to Olde World that it happens some day.
I don't think Age of Sigmar will be dropped to bring back Warhammer Fantasy Battle in the World That Was.
I suspect there is a possibility that apart from anthologies and re-issues there might be occasional new Black Library fiction, but that'll be even less frequent than new Age of Sigmar fiction, and nothing looks to be in the pipeline.
After that, it's a possibility that they may bring back a sort of WFB either as a special edition limited book, as well as a limited armies book more likely under the Forgeworld or Specialist Games brand, and tied in with occasional Made to Order releases of old miniatures.
I do think when Specialist Games get around to making Mordheim it will be set in Mordheim, and that may be their likely way of exploring the World That Was.
Other than that, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 4th edition is arriving this year by Cubicle 7, and with a ruleset that looks set to be their idea of an improved 1st/2nd edition, and from clues set just before The End Times.
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Thanks for the clarification , oxycuter. Three units of 30 does become a choice of units as opposed to having to field that many. I’ll have to go back to reread that thread.
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I don't think WAoS will be dropped to bring back WFB either, and even if they did, I hope they don't call it The World That Was when its been called the Olde World all these years.
I'm so not into the WAoS fluff, that the likelihood I'll pick up a WAoS fluff book is slim to none, and so if they never write any, I won't be disappointed.
And the mention of WHRP 4th edition, yep, let's hope it isn't set in WAoS.
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And the mention of WHRP 4th edition, yep, let's hope it isn't set in WAoS.
There'll be two:
The original Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay set in the righteous Mortal Realm and the one for PlaneWarScapeHammer wannabe40k (aos).
EDIT:I don't think GW will bring Warhammer back as Gw is too much incompetent.
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And the mention of WHRP 4th edition, yep, let's hope it isn't set in WAoS.
There'll be two:
The original Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay set in the righteous Mortal Realm and the one for PlaneWarScapeHammer wannabe40k (aos).
EDIT:I don't think GW will bring Warhammer back as Gw is too much incompetent.
They should. The last couple of years were awesome, when it came to promoting the Old World. I've heard unconfirmed tales about releasing a AoS supplement which will allow the players to run games in the Old World. It's still a year or two away, tough.
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If there is enough demand and staying power, running WAoS in the Olde World can happen.
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Warhammer setting should run in Warhammer rules not in the game that cancelled it and that's only able to steal game ideas, artworks...from it! :ph34r:
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WAoS means Warhammer: Age of Sigmar. It is still intended to be a Warhammer setting and rules, and just like with 40K when the editions change the setting continues to move forward, there isn't anything to say that WAoS couldn't also do the same thing. My concern isn't with the newest set of fantasy rules, which by the way are continually changing as well, but with the idea that they destroyed the Olde World as part of their transition into using the new rules.
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Warhammer setting should run in Warhammer rules not in the game that cancelled it and that's only able to steal game ideas, artworks...from it! :ph34r:
Yeah, but I, for one, would hate to see the clunky, convoluted and downright broken (High Elves!) rules for the 8th edition, making a comeback. Say what you will about AoS (I'm not a fan. Yet...), but its rules are 10 times better than any of the older WFB rulesets ever were.
If that's what it takes to bring the Old World back, then count me in. Exitus acta probat.
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just get rid of the round bases :closed-eyes:
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just get ride of the round bases :closed-eyes:
But round bases are easier to ride on than square.
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I still put all my models on square bases, even the AoS stuff. Things just look so great when their all carefully ranked up. That said, round bases are great for showing off characters without having to worry about space.
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just get ride of the round bases :closed-eyes:
But round bases are easier to ride on than square.
I must say, round bases are much, much better. Especially when the models are holding their weapons wide or have wings or such.