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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => Empire 8th Army Book => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Lords Heroes and Special Characters => Topic started by: wissenlander on May 14, 2009, 07:34:37 AM
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While it's possible this would be a 'needed' change across army books, I think it's still an option worth looking at. The point costs are just a best guess. I had worked up an army list before but can't seem to find it so this is purely off of memory as are the accompanying rules:
Light barding (6+ save) - 10 pts
Heavy barding (5+ save, monster loses 1 inch of movement on the ground and in the air) - 20 pts
Full plate barding (4+ save, griffon only, monster loses 1.5 inches of movement on the ground and in the air) - 35 pts
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While it's possible this would be a 'needed' change across army books, I think it's still an option worth looking at. The point costs are just a best guess. I had worked up an army list before but can't seem to find it so this is purely off of memory as are the accompanying rules:
Light barding (6+ save) - 10 pts
Heavy barding (5+ save, monster loses 1 inch of movement on the ground and in the air) - 20 pts
Full plate barding (4+ save, griffon only, monster loses 1.5 inches of movement on the ground and in the air) - 35 pts
Bah, no monsters need armor. I would say a reduction in the price of the Griffon is what is needed, maybe down to 100 to make it competitive with the War Altar. Very little change but suddenly a General on Griffon with Runefang comes in at a more reasonable 300 rather than 400 points.
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Totally agree with that cost reduction
+200 points is way too much at the moment.
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That's kind of the point, though. There's no real reason to take a monster mount at all, even in a points reduction, IMO. And Uryens, if a free company guy is so important to have light armor I'd imagine you'd want a monster to have some too. :wink:
But apparently this isn't as popular of an idea as I had thought it may be.
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Nah, most monsters get shot at by big ass warmachines which deny saves anyway so nah ;)
Plus I cant justify a Griffon carrying armour in my "gritty world of dark fantasy that is warhammer" head.
Though do dragons get a save? They should since they have armoured skin (see, armour is spelled with a U, otherwise its just french for love ;) )
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I think it's amor, but I'd have to ask my wife. :unsure: You do bring up a valid point with the warmachines, though.
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It's an interesting thought, but as stated earlier the majority of damage comes from war machines, so I doubt anyone would take armor even if it was offered.
However, I do like the IDEA of paying for better protection for my monstrous mount; maybe armor on a large target does work against war machine? Maybe a ward save or something for the mount? I'm not sure what would work and be balanced, but I'd definately consider the upgrade if it worked against war machines.
I think it's amor, but I'd have to ask my wife. :unsure: You do bring up a valid point with the warmachines, though.
Don't listen to him; those crazy Europeans just love to put U's in everything! Their colourful language is a labour to type, and there's no need to continue this discussion about the spelling of "armour" in that regard.
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If anything I would suggest a magic item ward save for a monster mount
And we put "u"s in because we can spell... :ph34r:
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If anything I would suggest a magic item ward save for a monster mount
And we put "u"s in because we can spell... :ph34r:
Clearly not; whenever I type "armour" or "colour" my spell-checker says it's wrong. :wink:
See, even technology is against you lot!
But seriously, I think a magic item ward save would be an excellet solution!
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Armor = american spelling
Armour = english spelling
Color = American as well..
Colour = English..
Change your spell check from English US to English UK (or English Aus) not that I think you can do that with the standard one you get on W-E.
Then again you may all be taking the piss.
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Quiet you, you're ruining our fun!
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Quiet you, you're ruining our fun!
Yes Ma'am... I mean...
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Bloody Colonials.
Anyway, rather than the ward save, I would just make them much cheaper
ie. Griffon down to 100pts.
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Griffon down to 160pts.
Allow option of Barding or Full Plate Barding.
Barding = 6+AS
Full Plate = 4+AS
Neither inflicts a movement penalty (they are bigger and stronger than warhorse afterall).
No need for an inbetween - we do only have 2 mounts afterall.
Barding available for Pegasus,
Barding or Full plate available for Griffon
Dragons get a scally skin save, generally a 3+ I think.
Ward Saves for mounts are silly - a regen would be more appropriate (though not for all)
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Griffon down to 160pts.
Allow option of Barding or Full Plate Barding.
Barding = 6+AS
Full Plate = 4+AS
Neither inflicts a movement penalty (they are bigger and stronger than warhorse afterall).
No need for an inbetween - we do only have 2 mounts afterall.
Barding available for Pegasus,
Barding or Full plate available for Griffon
Dragons get a scally skin save, generally a 3+ I think.
Ward Saves for mounts are silly - a regen would be more appropriate (though not for all)
But the discussion of Ward Saves was because armor saves, as written, do not work against war machines (the primary killers of flyers and monsters). What's the point of dishing out more points on a useless save? Now, if monstrous barding IS effective against war machines (maybe because it's heavier duty stuff, since the mount is bigger), then the discussion is over and Wards do become useless.
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Armour would be just an option - good when you charge into a unit and teh rank and file allocate an attack on the mount because he doesn't have a 1+ AS like the character.
And Monsterous Mounts SHOULDN'T have Ward Saves, as moving them in front of a War Machine SHOULDN'T be a good idea.
Imagine if every monster we faced had a ward save. What good would our cannons be? Our cannons have a hard enough time with guessing distances, bounce rolls, rolls to wound and D6 wounds. Ward Saves on monsters make them too powerful, make them easy to use and people end up not using cover to hide their big monsters like they should.
Seriously, think about it from a different perspective.
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Armour would be just an option - good when you charge into a unit and teh rank and file allocate an attack on the mount because he doesn't have a 1+ AS like the character.
And Monsterous Mounts SHOULDN'T have Ward Saves, as moving them in front of a War Machine SHOULDN'T be a good idea.
Imagine if every monster we faced had a ward save. What good would our cannons be? Our cannons have a hard enough time with guessing distances, bounce rolls, rolls to wound and D6 wounds. Ward Saves on monsters make them too powerful, make them easy to use and people end up not using cover to hide their big monsters like they should.
Seriously, think about it from a different perspective.
Well, I can certainly agree with the second point. I'm not saying we should be able to charge a cannon head on and come out on top, I just felt that a little durability would be better. However, taking that across the board would only take a bad situation (the current problem with dragons, etc.) and make it worse.
As for the other, I'd forgotten about people hacking apart a griffon instead of the rider. I never take one because I can't justify the expense.
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Amour is French for love ;).
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Griffon down to 160pts.
Allow option of Barding or Full Plate Barding.
Barding = 6+AS
Full Plate = 4+AS
Neither inflicts a movement penalty (they are bigger and stronger than warhorse afterall).
No need for an inbetween - we do only have 2 mounts afterall.
Barding available for Pegasus,
Barding or Full plate available for Griffon
So you like the idea? :Ohmy: What do you think the point costs should be? As it is, it looks pretty good me thinks. And honestly, if there was some barding for the monsters I'd be more inclined to take one. I do understand that warmachines can whack away just about anything, but it would be good to have some protection from other stuff. As it is now, they don't.
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'Armor' is Uryens northern accent speaking french.
I like the idea of armour on mounts, though i'm not sure the exact specifications on 'full plat armour; would be on a griffon, that's like a few tonnes of metal.
Oh and yes, you colonials are wrong.
We invented the computer and the internet so therefore everything should be spelt real English on the web. We also invented the lightbulb, not that Edison fellow.
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I am pro on the armour save and I am pro on the point reduction if you see the profile of a hydra for 175 points you just have to laugh over the griffon .....
Make the Elector Count a viable choice again.
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We invented the computer and the internet so therefore everything should be spelled with real English on the web. We also invented the light bulb, not that Thomas Edison fellow.
I fixed your mistakes for you.
Wrong on all counts. Don't forget electricity, discovered by a very famous American...
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We invented the computer and the internet so therefore everything should be spelled with real English on the web. We also invented the light bulb, not that Thomas Edison fellow.
I fixed your mistakes for you.
Wrong on all counts. Don't forget electricity, discovered by a very famous American...
If you're referring to Benjamin Franklin, he didn't "discover" electricity, technically. He discovered that the atmosphere carries a charge, so more properly he "discovered" lightning, in the sense that he was able to explain what it was.
As for Thomas Edison, everyone knows he only invented the ability to bully and steal from Tesla and other great minds. Thomas Edison lived his life as a fraud, made millions off others' inventions, and died wearing a "Suck it, Tesla" shirt that he did not design.
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Griffon down to 160pts.
Allow option of Barding or Full Plate Barding.
Barding = 6+AS
Full Plate = 4+AS
Neither inflicts a movement penalty (they are bigger and stronger than warhorse afterall).
160 points is WAY too expensive for a Griffon. Think about the cost of the War Altar (100 points) and what it gives you - impact hits, Unbreakable, 4+ Ward Save, Lvl 5 Light Spell of your choice every turn . . .
A Griffon gives you some strength 5 attacks, terror, and mobility; I would say a comparable amount of bonuses to a worse character. 100 points seems both reasonable and fair. I guess you could give the Griffon the option of armor (4+ Armor Save) for +20 points but it would only be decent against bow fire (which is legimate as everything can fire at it).
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I think you're under-costing the effects of those features.
Terror flank charges are a strong possibility with a griffon, and against a fair number of armies that's going to be a heavy tactical factor. The mobility from flight is nothing to sneeze at either, and opens up a tremendous amount of options for attack. Considering you can also bring a stank (or two!) and split enemy artillery, you're left with a monster with some good CC ability, mobility that can wreak havoc with tactics, and terror (which is always a potent force).
Now, it is indeed overpriced currently, no arguments on that. But, I think 150 or so is definitely the right area. The War Altar does have a lot going for it, but it's not as mobile and while it's a strong unit, it doesn't necessarily lend the same tactical punch as a flying monster. It's truly the superior choice at the moment, and that's what we need to fix. At 160 for a griffon or 100 for an altar, you have a real tough decision to make. Under the current pricing, the altar stands out as a much smarter buy.
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We invented the computer and the internet so therefore everything should be spelled with real English on the web. We also invented the light bulb, not that Thomas Edison fellow.
I fixed your mistakes for you.
Wrong on all counts. Don't forget electricity, discovered by a very famous American...
Pfft I makes no mistakes young lad arr.
I blame my upbringing.
And.. right on all accounts?
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We invented the computer and the internet so therefore everything should be spelled with real English on the web. We also invented the light bulb, not that Thomas Edison fellow.
I fixed your mistakes for you.
Wrong on all counts. Don't forget electricity, discovered by a very famous American...
1. Edison didnt invent the light bulb - that goes to Thomas Swan, Edison developed the incandescant bulb that is now used.
2. Jefferson didnt discover Electricity. That would be the ancient greek inventor Thales, or the English courtier to Elizabeth I, William Gilbert.
As an aside, Edison was a crook, thief, corrupt and a liar and there is some indications, a murderer.
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Tim Lee invented the internet too. He's definately English and very rich. Technically the lightbulb was invented way earlier it was just completely unusable.
Is the murderer from irradiating the guy? Cause radiation wasn't as well known about then so it's hardly murder. Even Tesla didn't know about radiation.
Mogsam
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Sorry for thread-jacking lol
I am talking about Augustin le Prince (http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=147314§ioncode=26)
Anyway, flying monsters shouldnt get armour, unless its in their nature i.e. a dragon, but they should be much cheaper to reflect their easy killability.
Or dont make them large creatures so they can hide behind otehr units.
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Sorry for thread-jacking lol
I am talking about Augustin le Prince (http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=147314§ioncode=26)
Anyway, flying monsters shouldnt get armour, unless its in their nature i.e. a dragon, but they should be much cheaper to reflect their easy killability.
Or dont make them large creatures so they can hide behind otehr units.
Holy Shit! Freaky stuff in that link.
Hmm, make them less than a large target...that's interesting, but won't it drastically affect certain rules against it? The Bretonnian "killing blow against big things" trinket comes to mind as a painfully easy-to-exploit example...
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Make em US3 or something
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Give them the ability to "Play dead" :smile2:
Seriously, I can't imagine a griffon flying (at all) with the amount of barding it would have to wear to represent full plate armour (not the new GS standard FPA...).
Maybe if it lost the ability to fly? It would still be a pretty powerful monster in close combat, although it loses it's prime ability after terror.
Had we had a ground beast, like the wood elf great bull, it might as well have been an armoured behemoth :-) Oooh, Imperial Juggernaught anyone? :-) Wouldn't you say we need more engineer mounts? :engel:
Shadowwolf
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General on a Stank?
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If the griffon loses its ability to fly due to armor, I can't see it being worth it. Mobility is a huge asset in any army, and without flight I'd feel a griffon is not worth it without some other changes. I mean, that would make it a large target that would have to plod along towards the enemy, facing monster destroyers all the way. Would armor give it the durability to make it worth the trade? I don't know, but I don't think so.
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We invented the computer and the internet so therefore everything should be spelled with real English on the web. We also invented the light bulb, not that Thomas Edison fellow.
I fixed your mistakes for you.
Wrong on all counts. Don't forget electricity, discovered by a very famous American...
1. Edison didnt invent the light bulb - that goes to Thomas Swan, Edison developed the incandescant bulb that is now used.
2. Jefferson didnt discover Electricity. That would be the ancient greek inventor Thales, or the English courtier to Elizabeth I, William Gilbert.
As an aside, Edison was a crook, thief, corrupt and a liar and there is some indications, a murderer.
I'm not referring to Jefferson. I meant Franklin.
Armor is good, as long as it doesn't get overboard, in either direction.
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We invented the computer and the internet so therefore everything should be spelled with real English on the web. We also invented the light bulb, not that Thomas Edison fellow.
I fixed your mistakes for you.
Wrong on all counts. Don't forget electricity, discovered by a very famous American...
1. Edison didnt invent the light bulb - that goes to Thomas Swan, Edison developed the incandescant bulb that is now used.
2. Jefferson didnt discover Electricity. That would be the ancient greek inventor Thales, or the English courtier to Elizabeth I, William Gilbert.
As an aside, Edison was a crook, thief, corrupt and a liar and there is some indications, a murderer.
I'm not referring to Jefferson. I meant Franklin.
Armor is good, as long as it doesn't get overboard, in either direction.
Either way, they didnt invent or discover electricity ;)
In either direction? well since there is none at the moment it can only go one way :D
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I meant as long as it didn't give a 3+ save with no penalties, or a 6+ with no flying and 1/2 movement.
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Ok, a few things.
1 - comparing the War Altar and the Griffon in points cost is like comparing a Dark Elf spearman with Lothern Sea Guard.
On is clearly underpriced for its effectiveness, while the other is overpriced.
The War Altar needs a price increase. Common consensus is either 125 to 150pts.
The Griffon needs a price drop. I say 160pts
2 - armour on a mount. When I say full plate, I really only mean the weight and amount of armour that full plate would be on a man, covering vital bits. A griffon is big - the amount of armour it takes to cover a man head to toe would cover a griffons back. Thats what I call full plate (even though its not actually...)
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Ok, a few things.
1 - comparing the War Altar and the Griffon in points cost is like comparing a Dark Elf spearman with Lothern Sea Guard.
On is clearly underpriced for its effectiveness, while the other is overpriced.
The War Altar needs a price increase. Common consensus is either 125 to 150pts.
The Griffon needs a price drop. I say 160pts
Even under the current pricing, I think dropping it to 160 makes it a much better option simply from a tactical standpoint. I'm not as concerned about upping the cost of the altar, certainly not unless other armies are going to be brought into line as well. After all, if every other army becomes overpowered (not saying they all are, but if it happened), then we cease to be most balanced and become the weakest. GW either needs to balance the unbalanced armies, or improve the balanced ones to match them (tough with us, since I already feel we're about the most balanced one out there).
2 - armour on a mount. When I say full plate, I really only mean the weight and amount of armour that full plate would be on a man, covering vital bits. A griffon is big - the amount of armour it takes to cover a man head to toe would cover a griffons back. Thats what I call full plate (even though its not actually...)
Well, that's not really "full plate", but now I get where you're going with this. :wink:
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To answer the thread title.
Yes
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I think Wiss is onto something here. I still think it would be viable to take as often straying too close to a unit of handgunners or crossbowmen, heck even some lucky archers can cause your monster to end up a pincushion and it's so frustrating to know that all they need is a couple of lucky 6s and the VPs start leaking out. They are not that hard to bring down with small missile fire.
Warmachines should kill them, so that is ok. Arrows should too in large quantities, I don't deny that, but I think a little protection could make sense if one wanted to take it. I almost always take extra armour over extra guys as it's amazing how often those 5s or 6s get rolled in a pinch.
I like the idea of a few more monsters daring to fly onto the table, they are just too delicate right now though, those with saves already ignored.
Perhaps as extra incentive, the rider could get +1 from it too, like they do with barding on a normal steed...
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1. Reduce the point cost of a Griffon and give it a heavy armor/full plate upgrade. Rather than reduce the movement of the Griffon you can reduce its initiative.
2. Allow the Griffon to be ridden by a Captain at the cost of an extra hero slot.
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Light armor? Sure.
Heavy armor? Umm, maybe.
But full plate? It just feels wrong.
I just can't picture a griffon flying wearing enough metal to qualify for 'full plate'. :-o
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I think an armour option would be great. Do you know how many times my big chicken has gone down to some Skinks? Too many.
Also, imagine how awesome that model would look!
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Make the Griffon 150pts and it already comes with armour (4+)
(http://warhammer.deepsilver.com/de/images/art/121006/lg/18.jpg)
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Give it a speach bubble saying "NONE SHALL PASS!!" (The knight, not the griffon)
Sanj
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I agree wholeheartedly with Victor. While an armor save is an excellent idea for griffins, there is absolutely no reason to add a complicated and unneeded armor option. Simply give a griffin a 4+ armor save and call it a day. It'll be a great excuse for GW to produce an awesome armored plastic griffin model with both human and elven riders.
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I want one of those griffons. :smile2:
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I still say a +100 pt option for a Griffon is reasonable. How many times do you see the Griffon in a tournament? I've never seen in it a tourney army - regardless of race (or even a hippogriff or manticore). I think that obviously says that those options are horrendously overpriced. I mean, a Knight is almost as durable as a Griffon! The armor option would be cool for something like 20 pts.
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I like the armour thingy Wiss. It would be great though, if you could combine that with the 4+ ward from the holy relic, or the warrior priests' prayer. something to help fight off the cannons and bolt throwers of the world.
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That is one seriously awesome looking Griffon! Exactly what he'd need in the way of armour, too. Some stuff around the midsection to make sure his heart, lungs, etc don't get pierced by a lucky arrow or spear; and lower leg protection so he doesn't get hamstrung by swordsmen!
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While an armor save is an excellent idea for griffins, there is absolutely no reason to add a complicated and unneeded armor option. Simply give a griffin a 4+ armor save and call it a day.
That's definitely something I could live with. Simple and addresses the issue.
The armor option would be cool for something like 20 pts.
Giving you the option for armor would be cool, too. I wonder how that would work if they were to release a new griffon, though?
It would be great though, if you could combine that with the 4+ ward from the holy relic, or the warrior priests' prayer. something to help fight off the cannons and bolt throwers of the world.
Since I've recently gotten a pegasus I was really hoping that a ward would transfer over, but alas, nothing. Combined it may be a bit too strong, but as it stands this could also be a conceivable option.
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It makes sense to me that the empire would try to armour their mount to - they got the technology for it. I think 4+ is a bit to much - i would say 5+ and only one armoured option.
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I agree wholeheartedly with Victor. While an armor save is an excellent idea for griffins, there is absolutely no reason to add a complicated and unneeded armor option. Simply give a griffin a 4+ armor save and call it a day. It'll be a great excuse for GW to produce an awesome armored plastic griffin model with both human and elven riders.
This is something I've been thinking for a couple of years now.
That plus a points reduction. But, let's face it, even the points reduction would be sufficient. 150 and I'd start using him again. Like, seriously. The model's awesome, so it's a damn shame you can't really use it.
Or as I always say, you can use anything - just deploy - but killing your inner child in the process just because your behind hurts so much after the game just isn't right. :|
And look at the Dark elven Manticore... Just look at him and tell me the current rules for a Griffon are justified... :cry:
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the dragon gets a 3+ scaly skin save, whats the big deal with a griffon getting a 4+ i thikn its an awesome idea, BRING ON THE BARDED GRIFFON!!! :biggriin:
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NONE SHALL PASS!!!
to the armoured griffon picture, which was awesome!
I just ordered my griffon general through my local hobby store and when i put it together I am going to play it with every army so I can get the hang of it. . .
Never know, I might begin reporting the battles with him in it.
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Do we even need more protection for monstrous mounts? Surely there are enough flying terror causing creatures at the moment and some armies already have an extremely difficult time dealing with them regardless of extra armour!
Although I agree with the change on the price for the gryphon.
Don't use the under priced Hydra as an example! :D
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It would be really cool giving him a cannon that the general operates and the griffon holds! :biggriin:No, no armor can be given to a griffin, it just does not fit right :dry:, even though i would like it. Changing the points cost to 150 or so would be fair enough.
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what is the current cost of a griffon as it stands in the High elf book?
and yes to an armour option for griffons and pegasi, every picture in an empire related way that has a griffon in it they are all wearing barding. I mean, even deathclaw has barding?!?!?!