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The General Archive => Empire Army Book 8th Edition => Lords Heroes and Special Characters => Topic started by: kk14 on February 18, 2010, 08:42:48 AM

Title: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: kk14 on February 18, 2010, 08:42:48 AM
That's right. The Engineer thread is here.

This is what I am considering putting in the revised Army Book:

Engineer: 50 points, same as before.
-Add: Grenades special weapon (7 points)
When taking a Stand and shoot reaction, the Engineer may throw grenades instead of firing his weapon. He fires d6 shots, which are S4 AP. He still rolls to hit as normal. Note that the grenades are not a multi-shot weapon for the purposes of to hit rolls.
-Add: Telescopic Targeting Monocle (5 points)
The Engineer gets +1 to his to hit rolls with handheld blackpowder weapons.
-Add: Device of Magic Disruption (15 points) Enemy wizards within 15" of the Engineer, or casting spells whose effects are within 15" of the Engineer get -1 to their casting rolls, and -1 to their miscast rolls. They cannot be prevented from miscasting.
-Add: Special Rule: If there is an Engineer in your army, one mortar may be taken as a Core choice.
-Add: Special Rule: Minimize damage. War machines joined by the Engineer get +1 to their misfire rolls. If a 7 is rolled, it counts as a 6. If a 2 is rolled, then remove a crewmember from the war machine's crew
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on February 18, 2010, 10:18:01 AM
Still not very attractive.

If you look at other hero choices you pick them for

leadership,

close combat potential

magical potential

for 50 points you have a model that deals a single range attack each turn or improves a war machine. But sucks in every other department, no armour, no close combat potential and the -1 to casting also does little to prevent enemy magic. (except vampires would be fun to field three engineers against nehek spam). Also he isnīt allowed to take magical items that furter diminish his powers.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: kk14 on February 18, 2010, 10:39:49 AM
Hum. I think he is much more attractive. Perhaps overpowered.

What would make him attractive?
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on February 18, 2010, 10:44:03 AM
Either make him a support character

like all handguns get +1 to hit

make him better against magic

dispel dice and perhaps options to dispel scrolls

make him a close combat dude

mechanical horse and something like a primitive power suit

make him the only option to get a steam tank

Engineer can mount a stank for 250 points
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: kk14 on February 18, 2010, 10:48:20 AM
Hmmm. I like the stank mount idea.
Keep in mind that the above keeps all the old engineer abilities and possibilities, including *grumble* the darn robo-horse.
I think a universal rule is OTT.  I was considering ALL warmachines get the re-roll arty dice, but that was just too much, IMO.

Perhaps add a Null Magic Device? (25 points, works like a dispel scroll).
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on February 18, 2010, 10:51:55 AM
Well not bad. But if you compare him to the mage choice you get +1 BS and the option to well nothing any core champion or outrider champion can take (outrider champ even the same bs) the mage costs 15 points more and adds a dispel dice, power dice and the option to magic items (so about the same stuff) with the steam tank mount there is some use for the engineer (he even looses the advantages of his engineer skills as he canīt join a warmachine crew any more....well unless the stank suddenly counts as ridden monster).
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on February 18, 2010, 05:14:35 PM
exactly my arguement for an independant "engineers gadget" magic items list.  Not actually magic but with magic item like game effects. 

Also I really like the idea of at least journeymen engineers as warmachine upgrades and unit buffing skills, besides the old standard regular master engineers.   The journeymen would fit in the army comp structure about the same way DE assasins do not really characters and not really troops and you can only take so many of them if at all.  Maybe tie them to the master engineers, you'd have to take at least one character engineer in order to take any journeymen and then a limit of how many per character engineer.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: kk14 on February 18, 2010, 10:37:05 PM
Journeymen I like.

Simply another crewmember, with all the same stats, but allows a reroll of arty or scatter die.  Cannot use this ability in two consecutive turns, and this ability cannot be used on Rare artillery.
Armed with a brace of pistols.

You cannot have more journeymen than engineers in the army.
+25 points for special slot warmachines.

For the Engineer: Would he become more attractive if he could allow re-rolls for rare artillery as well?
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on February 19, 2010, 01:31:26 AM
hmm I was thinking more along the lines of 2 journeymen to each engineer, and yeah I would agree giving the engineer the ability to re roll rare warmachines would make them much more useful.     
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Warlord on February 19, 2010, 04:08:43 AM
Some great ideas in this thread already! Very good.

I need to mull over these new thoughts, as well as older and more established ones. I will be back next week with an opinion.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: kk14 on February 19, 2010, 07:36:30 PM
Journeymen do get awfully close to dwarves' engineers, however. We need to find a way to make them quintessentially different.

On: +1 to misfire rolls. Instead of 'lose a crewmember' it will be 'takes d3 wounds, distributed like shooting'

Stank Mount:
+300 points, uses a rare slot. Engineer can still take all equipment upgrades, and can move and shoot with any ranged weapon while not in combat. (While in combat, he hides in the machine). He nonetheless suffers the usual -1 penalty for moving and shooting.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Dezzo on February 21, 2010, 05:12:18 AM
Make engineers a unit upgrade for X points. (between 20 - 30).

The upgrade does certain things for various units.

1. For warmachines they reroll artillery dice
2. For shooting units +1 BS
3. For Steamtank, reroll steam points roll or cannon's artillery dice (only either not both per turn)

Why unit upgrade? Because Empire needs all the hero slots for things like the Warrior Priest, BSB, Wizards than the Engineer which does very little to the army...
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on February 21, 2010, 06:15:38 AM
I think That specific role dezzo could best be taken by the journeyman class of engineer.  this would free up the engineer char himself to do other things on the battlefield.  In the opinion of the Engineer, "I trained those journeymen to do the boring stuff so I can work on *____* "
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Noble Korhedron on February 22, 2010, 03:27:18 PM
Well I really think the Engineer needs at least +1 BS!! I mean, he's only got the same BS as an Outrider for Sigmar's sake!!
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: kk14 on February 22, 2010, 08:13:34 PM
A friend of mine feels that Engineers are actually too strong. He suggested that instead of a re-roll, they grant a +2 or -2 option to any artillery die roll once per turn.

Noble Korhedron: That's why I added the 'targeting monocle'. It gives the +1 to hit (essentially BS5) without making the engineer always BS 5.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: kk14 on February 26, 2010, 06:22:20 PM
The problem with the engineer is there is no way I can see to make him compete with our other heroes for the slot, without making him very strong. I am worried that too much bonus to the engineer, or a global bonus that he grants, make Empire gunlines too strong.

I playtested the engineer with his targeting monocle and the +1 on misfire rolls. I really like the +1 to misfire mechanic, it goes great on a Hellblaster, although he only got to shoot his Long rifle with BS 5 once.

The problem was, as Fandir pointed out, that he competes too much with our other heroes for important combat, Ld, and magic slots. Even in a Gunline, a mage is usually a better choice.

However, I found that with the simple inclusion of an Engineer and General of the Empire, our special slots were wonderfully free: I could take a unit of Greatswords and a Mortar, and still have space for 2 cannons and two more choices! It was, perhaps, a little too strong, and felt a little too much like High Elves. I think any special and rare choices that get moved to Core because of army structure will have to not count against the minimum number of core units.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: nub5 on February 26, 2010, 06:48:49 PM
<snip>
The problem was, as Fandir pointed out, that he competes too much with our other heroes for important combat, Ld, and magic slots. Even in a Gunline, a mage is usually a better choice.

True and maybe the fix to the engineer needs to be combine with another fix.  Such as making a common magic item that gives bonus to magic defense (that an non wizard can take) combine with the new propose engineer rules.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Smythen on March 31, 2010, 11:15:15 AM
The engineer should have the following in my oppinion:
Stay safe, doesnt die if warmachine blows up.
Gives defended obstacle option to all warmachines x points pr. warmachine.
bs 5.

More options for the artillery:
Ad engineer aprentice/journeyman, to warmachine as extra crewman +x points. with +1 bs. has lightarmor and a repeater pistol, and pistol.
A single artillery dice reroll pr. battle. (its simply too gamebreaking having your greatcannon blow up i turn 1)
Pistols to the crewmen.
(all other armies have awy better crewmen than we do so, dwarfs t 4 lightarmor ld 9, elves ws bs 4, asf, ld 8 lightarmor, orcs t4 etc. so these changes wont be unfair.)

Then we would see a lot of lesser engineers on the batlefield, and the master engineer in gunline armies (nuln, feel)
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Tiberius on April 05, 2010, 06:48:37 PM
I have always thought it would be quite bitchin' to have a engineer be able to take 2 repeater pistols, and have him ride with pistoliers or something.  Granted he would die quite quickly, but he would go out guns ablazing.

And the monocle is cool, and I would say a better option than BS 5 if you want the Engineer to be able to man a Helbaster.

Also, how about giving the Engineers ld. 8?  Ld. 7 is just so awful.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Johedl on April 06, 2010, 07:03:51 AM
I like the idea of engineer and journeymen. If you field a master engineer then you may buy two journeymen upgrades á 25p. They act as unit champion and may have light armour, black powder weapons, BS 4 wich can be used for Hellblasters and can reroll artillery dice for mortars and cannons. If the engineer has Ld 8 then not much else have to change. The master and the two journeymen comes in at a higher price than a cannon so their ability to keep the artillery from blowing up is balanced against having more artillery.
I dont think the engineer should have more than BS 4, heīs an engineer not a soldier. But a higher leadership as a form of gunners pride might be a good upgrade.I also think engineers should have to take panic tests when a Stank is destroyed.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on April 06, 2010, 11:34:21 PM
Until the 20th century all engineers were soldiers, West Point was and is an engineering school as well as military academy.  The JOB of engineers prior to the 20th cent was primarily blowing stuff up or otherwise running or disassembling the machinery of war.  An engineer is not a gnomish tinkerer academic, he is much more akin to the highly educated bloke who shows up to advise the noble toff on how best to use the men to annihilate the enemy from a position of safety, with some clever plan that actually would work.  Then the noble toff, waves off the plan and commands a frontal charge into a hailstorm of warplock jezzail bullets.   
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Johedl on April 07, 2010, 12:18:06 AM
Until the 20th century all engineers were soldiers, West Point was and is an engineering school as well as military academy.  The JOB of engineers prior to the 20th cent was primarily blowing stuff up or otherwise running or disassembling the machinery of war.  An engineer is not a gnomish tinkerer academic, he is much more akin to the highly educated bloke who shows up to advise the noble toff on how best to use the men to annihilate the enemy from a position of safety, with some clever plan that actually would work.  Then the noble toff, waves off the plan and commands a frontal charge into a hailstorm of warplock jezzail bullets.   

I agree. A person with a masters degree in engineering is called a civilian engineer in Sweden due to the fact that the oldest school, the Royal College if Engineers, was form by the army after it was clear that the skills of military engineers could be put to good use in the civil society.
Having engineers as skirmishing musketeers doesn't fit the picture. They are better placed in the gunline making fences and fixing warmachines.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on April 07, 2010, 04:47:30 AM
see this is where a bit of communication is lost in translation.  What you johedl are talking about is what we would call currently pioneers and yes that is a sub role of engineering, a role that a journeyman unit leader can take in the empire army.  The squad level skirmishing musketeers would fit in the special or rare category as an engineering special weapons unit (whatever we actually end up calling it) after all when the first of any new weapon comes out it doesn't come out in large numbers no matter how popular it may become later.  Look at the deployment of the wheel lock, flint lock, sharps rifle development, with each new advance older weapons were still deployed in large numbers beside the new fangled better ones.  Hech we can even look at the early stages of the mitrailleuse, gatling and machine guns while everybody else had bolt action weapons, except for a very few units or specialists who were deployed with the new goodies in the first WW.   What I see the Master Engineer properly changing role towards is the battle field prep unit buffer or run parallel to the wizards duplicating in some cases their role and doing other things than a wizard can in others.  Almost like a 9th school of magic with special abilities used much like how we consider spells or prayers vis a vis game mechanics.  Having an engineer with BS5 is not unfluffy, he presumably is a master of ballistic sciences parabolic arcs and all that rot as well he probably already comes with pretty good optics for whatever weapon he's going to use even before he buys extra good pin point add ons from a "magic item" engineering list.  So maybe >HE< himself might not be able to unassisted match an elven archer shot for shot his tools let him do so, very Empire indeed.   
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Von Falster on June 16, 2010, 08:50:44 PM
What about...

Supervised Maintenance:
Reintroduces the First Volley rule if you have a Master Engineer (+d6" max range on the first shot with handguns)
or
+1 to hit the first time handguns fire
or
All Great Cannons and Mortars may reroll their first result on the misfire chart. <-- Personal favorite of the three.

Battery commander:
Great Cannons and Mortars within 3" of the Master Engineer may profit from Master of Ballistics. <-- Here's your desired battery system.

Master of Ballistics:
Add "Any unit of Handgunners the Master Engineer joins has +1 to hit". <-- Meh, just an idea.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Warlord on July 26, 2010, 03:42:25 AM
I think with the introduction of 8th edition and the Empire FAQ, the only changes he needs are:

Cost reduction. 50pts flat should do it IMO.

Equipment cost reduction. All equipment should be cheaper for him

BS increase - to BS5.
This should coincide with Helblaster and Helstorm warmachine crew having BS4 (as these guys are more skilled with the more complicated machine than those with cannon / mortar).

Engineering student unit.
Normally Rare, 1 unit of these as Core (to be discussed later on).
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Dutch on November 15, 2010, 06:17:15 AM
I feel even with a point reduction the Engineer is lackluster. Hes basically going to be an expensive +1 BS or an expensive sniper of sorts. I propose just adding some interesting bits to him and granting a unit upgrade of standard Engineer.

Engineer

M 4 WS 3 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 3 A 1 Ld 7

Master of Ballistics. (As per standard Master Engineer rules.) ; Extra Crewman.

25 pt upgrade to any war machine.

Master Engineer

M 4 WS 4 BS 5 S 3 T 3 W 2 I 3 A 1 Ld 8

Master of Ballistics. Feat of Engineering.

Feat of Engineering: Once per turn during the movement phase the Master Engineer may choose one of the following effects.
   Extra Powder: Any ranged weapon he possesses or war machine he is able to effect with Master of Ballistics gains +1 to all wound rolls this turn. Any war machine effected in this way is considered a use of    Master of Ballistics and the Master Engineer cannot shoot with another ranged weapon this turn.
   Sighting: Increase the range of any ranged weapon he possesses or war machine he is able to effect with Master of Ballistics by +4 inches. Any war machine effected in this way is considered a use of Master of    Ballistics and the Master Engineer cannot shoot with another ranged weapon this turn.
   Field Repairs: May attempt to repair any warmachine he is able to effect with Master of Ballistics or a Steam Tank within 3 inches with a successful roll of 4+. The war machine or Steam Tank regains 1 Wound    not exceeding their starting wounds profile. The use of this ability prevents the Master Engineer from shooting or aiding a war machine further with Master of Ballistics this turn.

(Same equipment options for the Master Engineer as are listed in the book. I think maybe an experimental powder weapon in addition but overall its good with these abilities added.)

I know this topic hasn't been discussed for some time but I like this thread and some of the other ones.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Johedl on November 15, 2010, 10:05:20 AM
I think with the introduction of 8th edition and the Empire FAQ, the only changes he needs are:

Cost reduction. 50pts flat should do it IMO.

Equipment cost reduction. All equipment should be cheaper for him

BS increase - to BS5.
This should coincide with Helblaster and Helstorm warmachine crew having BS4 (as these guys are more skilled with the more complicated machine than those with cannon / mortar).

Engineering student unit.
Normally Rare, 1 unit of these as Core (to be discussed later on).

I like the idea of a cost reduction. I would allso like to see a bit more choise when it comes to equipment, a pistol together with his reapiting pistol for example. The BS increase for the Rare warmachines is nice, making the crew specialy deployed Outriders would be nice with BS4 and light armour for 10-15 pts more per warmachine.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: red bull on November 15, 2010, 04:46:53 PM
The ballistic skill of the cannon and mortar crew really doesn't matter, as there aren't any to hit rolls.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Dutch on November 16, 2010, 07:18:13 AM
The ballistic skill of the cannon and mortar crew really doesn't matter, as there aren't any to hit rolls.
Actually it does matter. The cannon now must hit when using grapeshot, much like using the hellblaster, so an increased ballistic skill helps there. As well as a mortar using indirect fire even on a direct hit deviates the number indicated on the artillery die but that is reduced by the ballistic skill of the crew. Not significant numbers or uses but they can have an impact.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: red bull on November 20, 2010, 06:05:27 PM
I'd forgotten that. Ooops.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: sitaavanu on January 17, 2011, 04:55:15 PM
Long time ogre player looking to branch out.

When I am looking at your current army list and considering what I would be willing to take and pay for my views are slightly slanted due to my other faction.  That said, my thoughts are as follows:

He needs to provide something unique.  Warrior priest add dispel dice and can do melee combat.  Mages cast spells.  Hero's and lords can fill several different rolls based upon load out.  No one is going to want to take a model that only does these jobs .... kinda sorta but not really.  His nitch should be with the cannons and steam tank.  I really like the steam tank mount idea as it has been discussed as a mount option.  Having a ton of experience with restrictive list building I think it is a poor design to ONLY allow a steam tank if you have a master engineer.  What I really like though is the idea of him having his apprentices.  The master engineer allows for rerolling every turn (as it is currently allowed) on any artillery he is attached too.  His two apprentices, which should not count as hero points used up, (probably 15 or 20 pts a piece) can be assigned to a special or core artillery piece and allow rerolling every other round.

For that cost I could reasonably see people taking the engineer and his apprentices.  I think right now he doesn't do enough If i have 6 cannons i have to pay to give one of them a reroll (unless i've clumped everything together) and since I'm already burning heroes points I might as well burn points on giving him some gear so he can do something else.  at about 100 pts I've achieved in most games the ability to reroll one cannon? I might as well have just taken another cannon. 

Master Engineer should also give +1 to hit with black powder weapons that are used in a unit he is attached too (thus no need to enahnce his BS skill or the crews he is attached too and gives a reason to take the mechano horse or large units of gunners).
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Noble Korhedron on May 09, 2011, 08:49:38 PM
Apologies for this threadomancy. I think the Engineer should be able to take something other than light armour. Say a min of heavy armour and/or a shield. Or give him the option for a pavaise-like device which grants +2 armour save....?
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Drunk Artillery Commander on May 17, 2011, 04:18:27 AM
Ok so this is my first post ever. Ive only been playing empire for about 2 years (maybe 70 games total) so i was here for 7th and 8th edition. I've always found our armies were awesome for the flexibility and the lore, but a few things bugged me, one being the Master engineer's usefulness and another being the hand gunners usefulness (always rolling 5+ to hit except in close range). So i proposed a new special rule for the master engineer that is simple and makes both the engineer and hand gunners easier to swallow points wise. 

The rule proposed was that the engineer grants a 1+ to hit with all infantry/Calvary (i say cavalry because I'm partial to use a unit of outriders on the line then have them bugger off once the fun starts on the line) within 12 inches in line of sight while still conveying his rerolls to a machine within 3 inches.  I believe the point cost to be relatively offset by that and fluff wise you could always say that the hand-gunners would take a little more time in their firing if the guy who built their weapons were breathing down their necks.

I called it "Keeping an eye on my Investments"

In all honesty our guys are boss, S4 AP shots with 24 inch range, but we need something to make it worth it and this does it while keeping a good balance with the points and the buffs.     
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Delthos on May 17, 2011, 05:38:23 PM
I like it, except I think 12" range is too good a range for it, that improves a whole lot of stuff for one 65point model. I'd say 3" is sufficient.

I've got problems with it though as it means he can move around and bolster units during the game. While that fits the fluff you've written, I think it would be better if he just gave the benefit to one designated unit.

I really don't think the Engineer needs it though. They weren't worth the points at all in 7th edition, now I think they may actually be a little bit underpriced, either that or our warmachines are underpriced, for the benefit the engineer provides. I've played in about 10 games in 8th edition. I've fielded at least three warmachines in every game, and one engineer per three warmachines. I had a warmachine blow up for the first time this past Saturday night, a mortar.  In 7th edition I'd have one blow up every other game at best, and I'd field 3 or 4 warmachines, but with no engineers. The Engineer has made that much of a difference in my games. They just don't need to be made stronger.

I think they need to make them stronger if they aren't manning a warmachine. That way there is a real reason to take the Engineer weapons. If they aren't manning a warmachine, they are a waste of points.
Title: Re: Army Book: Engineer
Post by: Drunk Artillery Commander on May 18, 2011, 12:43:01 AM
Sorry i didn't make it clearer (I made the post at one in the morning), the buff can only be given to one unit per shooting phase. Though i admit my friends were generous when they let me use 12 inches as my limit, perhaps 4-8 inches would be better. I hate bunching my units to close together so i tend to deploy my machines at least 3 inches back(unless there are dwellers below/miners).