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Author Topic: Engineer 8.0  (Read 14544 times)

Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2009, 03:40:26 PM »
What about giving the engineer a zeppelin, or something like that?

Honestly, the robo-horse is a neat idea (engineering mount with unique powers), but let's take it in a different direction.

Maybe a zeppelin: flying, engineer always is considered on higher ground when determining LOS, maybe give it bombs of some sort it can drop, etc.  Any thoughts?
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Offline Siberius

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2009, 03:11:55 PM »
I like Grutch's original idea with a sort of 'temple of khaine' style list of items and upgrades he could use. I've always thought the engineer should be the assassin of the Empire. Maybe not even taking up a hero slot but instead being placed in the army book like assassins. Maybe the points would have to up for him slightly (or not decrease at least) but I think that would make him viable without seeing a huge number of them fielded (as they'd be taking away from the points you can spend on other units).

The 'Engineer's Workshop' could contain a whole host of whacky things to take, pigeon bombs moving in there where they belong. It could vary between super upgrades to weapons (eg. Flaming Repeater Crossbows) to army helping items (eg. Magnetic Magic Foiler) to War Machine upgrades (eg. Cannon Balls linked by chain to do a 1" wide path of destruction). That sort of thing.

Not only would Engineers be more fun, but they'd offer that level of unpredictability that assassins and the like have and which lets face it, Engineers are inherently.
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Offline Obi

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2009, 03:19:08 PM »
I love that cannonball idea! What about letting Helstorms fire two rockets at the same time?
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Offline Siberius

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2009, 03:19:54 PM »
That works too. See the craziness that could ensue??!!  :biggriin:
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Offline t12161991

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2009, 03:30:31 PM »
Not just two... 10!

But on a 2+ the whole thing goes up. Such is science!
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2009, 05:02:44 PM »
Ok. I'm all for this. Let's petition GW, and NOW!!

Offline smashthedean

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2009, 05:22:32 PM »
I like the unit upgrade akin to DE Assassin idea, but I don't see them attaching to blocks of troops. I'd say they're only allowed as upgrades on blackpower units (Handgunners, Pistoliers, Outriders, Warmachines, and Steam Tanks) and I do definitely like the idea of an Engineer's Workshop list of items.

I'm definitely on board for the Engineer being a better shot, though I could see that maybe being an upgrade you would buy. Maybe just like "Master Sniper Scope" or something to give him +1 to hit with the Hochland Long Rifle. It would make sense as not all Engineers are fantastic super-shots (hence the base BS4) and it would make you consider if you want to have the guy as a super-sniper or want to spend his Workshop allotment on other upgrades.

Also regarding re-rolls to warmachines, I don't think having an army-wide reroll would work so much as just a re-roll for the warmachine he's attached to. Armywide is a little much I think and this gives a reason to attach him to a warmachine where he might be more vulnerable than in a unit.

Offline Merrick

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2009, 06:54:30 PM »
Ok. I'm all for this. Let's petition GW, and NOW!!

Because it'll make so much more of a difference then all the other petitions about Greatswords, price rises, Daemons, VCs and various other whines?

Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2009, 07:23:27 PM »
Ok. I'm all for this. Let's petition GW, and NOW!!

Because it'll make so much more of a difference then all the other petitions about Greatswords, price rises, Daemons, VCs and various other whines?

Possibly...at least this petition would carry the possibility of increased sales, rather than whining about prices.  Better engineers = more sales of engineers so they can be fielded.
The first school of thought is that the ragged-assed Stirlanders, not having two coppers to rub together, nicked it when an elven envoy was passing through the area and had hopped off it to take a pee behind a tree

Offline Obi

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2009, 07:29:19 PM »
They'll probably be in the next batallion box or something :icon_lol:
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2009, 05:44:34 AM »
I'm inclined to do the engineers as actually a trio of character levels the lowest being a journeyman technician, then master engineer, and dean of engineers.  These characters would not have access to magical items although the items they do have access to have properties that will seem magical (Experimental weaponry), also they will have access to army bumps from the university of engineering in Nuln (known as the schola bellator). 

Journeyman Engineering Technician cost: 25 points
Special Rules: Unit upgrade, counts as a unit champion in all respects. Save that he may refuse challenges without penalty, Jouneyman.
Stats:  M WS BS S  T  W  I  A  LD
           4  3    4  3   3  1  3  1   7
Equipment options: comes with light armour, Warhorse (8 pts)), may choose weapons or tactical upgrades from the experimental weaponry or Schola Bellator lists to a maximum value of 50 points.

Master Engineer

Special Rules: Master Engineer, Experimental Weaponry, Schola Bellator.
Stats: as is except for bs 5 and ld 8
Equipment Options: may take special weapon and tactical upgrades from the experimental weaponry, and Scola Bellator lists to a maximum value of 75 points.
Mount Options: may ride a SENTIENT barded warhorse for +10 points barding +4 or a mechanical one for +20
Cost: 50


Dean of Engineers
M WS BS S T W I A LD
4  3    5  3  3  2 4 2  9
Special Rules:Master engineer, Experimental weaponry, Schola Bellator, Master of engineers.
Equipment options: as engineer except may take Upgrades to a maximum value of 150 points as well as FP (+8 pts)
Mount Options: Steam Tank 300, Warhorse +15 which may be barded +6
Cost: 60pts

Applicable special rules:

If any engineering characters are selected certain army abilities are unlocked to both units and or characters.
<Journeyman: this character is incomplete in his training to be a master engineer and as such may benefit only fromone of the warmachine benefits at a time and must also accompany it to gain these, and cannot crew it on his own but may continue to act as an additional crewman so long as he is attached. 

<Master Engineer:  There must be at least 1 Master Engineer  in an Empire army for every steam tank. If not accompanying a war machine,  At the beginning of each Empire shooting phase, you may choose 1 Empire War Machine within 6".  For the duration of that phase, the machine gets your choice of 1 of the following: +1 to hit; may re-roll the artillery die; and may re-roll any roll on a misfire chart.  If accompanying a war machine, you must nominate that machine, but it gets all the aforementioned benefits. A master engineer may crew a war machine on his own if the crew he is accompanying is killed.

<Master OF Engineers:  If a Dean of engineers is general of an army he may take a body guard of outriders from the PistolKorps these troopers do not count towards the core/special/ rare quota in any way.  If the Dean is mounted in a S-tank they will act as a cavalry detachment to the S-tank.  Command range for this detachment is 7 inches refer to the Detachment rules in all other respects.

<Schola Bellator:  The engineers of the empire are not merely tinkerers and mechanics, they are scholars and historians of the art of War and as such have access to many unit upgrades, and army special abilities.  However in order to confer these special attributes to the soldiers of his most Imperial Majesty they must be present to confer the effect in a strategic and practical setting.
-Prepared Defenses: a variety of prepared defenses can be bought by engineers who use this ability.  The prepared defenses an engineer may buy for the unitís in his army are such.
     - Gabions: these are large earthen filled wooden barricades to defend a warmachine from all but the most accurate of attacks.  The machine and crew counts as being behind hard cover.  This cover save is not lost even to S 10 attacks due to the inertia absorbing properties of the cover.  20 points per war machine
     - Ditch and Embankment: This is a quickly dug ditch with the earth thrown up onto the defended side to create an embankment which is then fortified with stakes, broken spears, etc. this will be a defended obstacle, providing a soft cover save to it's defenders who can hunker down behind the earthen embankment 20 points per unit.  This will count as a terrain feature for the remainder of the game.


<Engineering Tactica: These are the abilities the learned and scholarly engineers have emphasized in their extension students, generally considered unchivalrous and underhanded by those they are used against these abilities are no less capitalized to the fullest when available by even the most stiff necked Imperial knight.
     
       -Ambush : 1 point per model, designated to a specific engineering character
Troops noted for their ability to surprize thier enemies may be deployed in Ambush. At the beginning of the battle before units are placed, units in Ambush may be kept off of the battlefield.  The position of the unit is written down.  Once all units have been deployed this unit may either be placed in the controlling players zone or kept hidden in ambush.  Scouting rules then apply.
      -Imperial Stratagem : The imperial general actually listens to the learned council of his engineer liutenanant (unless the general is the dean , in which case he's in charge) and gives battle to the enemy on his own terns and on favourable ground.  For each master engineer or dean of engineers present at the battle the player may choose one of the following actions.  The player may choose to go either first or second regardless of die rolls and other applicable rules (this can force Brettonians NOT to play before battle), as well the player may move a terrain piece up to 6 inches in any direction, multiple engineers can repeat this action.  This happens in the empire players first turn regardless of whether the other player has moved or not. this ability is paid for by having engineering characters on the battlefield in place of thier more martial or magical comrades.     
 

     <Experimental Weaponry:  Master Engineers bring a cache of experimental weaponry to battle.  Some are too complex or dangerous for anyone but the engineer himself to use, but others become available to Elector Counts, Captains, or unit upgrades in the army.  If multiple master engineers are fielded, the cost of each weapon is reduced by 5pt for characters, the points cost for unit upgrades is never reduced. The following is the table of experimental weapons:

Pigeon Bombs 20 points: as is.   Master Engineer only.

Grenade launcher 30 points:  - st 6 armour piercing. Every wounding hit=d3 wounds. 24".  Master Engineer only.

repeater handgun 25 points: 3 shots, armour piercing st 4. 24"

repeater pistol 15 points: 3 shots. Armour piercing st4. 8" range. Pistol.

Nulnish shoulder cannon: 30 points, range 36' strength 6, 3 shots, always comes loaded with siver dipped bullets. equipped with the new dropping breech block so it is not restricted to move or fire.  (this is essentially the old dragon bow)

Dropping breech block Rifles: +4 points per model, one unit per 3000 point army is permitted to field test these new rare weapons.  They have a range of 36 S4 -3 AS and are not restricted to move or fire. You may upgrade handgunners  as per above rules or one unit of Huntsmen  with these if your army has a dean of engineers.

Grenadoes: 4 points per grenade used, S4 -2AS range 8 inches, uses 3 inch template and modelís BS to hit, if a hit is rolled roll an artillery die divided by two for template penetration into unit. If a misfire is rolled refer to the pigeon misfire table. A Maximum of 3 Grenades per turn per unit may be used.  Detachments may not purchase grenades, grenades may be used as a charge reaction.

Flame Siphon: 30 points Journeymen only (and suicidally stupid ones at that)restrictions 1 per 2000 points in the army  Flame siphons have a range of 16 inches no long range S5 roll an artillery dice for hits No AS as flame will penetrate the best armor roasting the lungs of itís victims, flaming attack.  After a flame siphon causes itís first wound of the game it causes Terror, if a unit suffers a wound from a flame siphon it must take an immediate panic test.  If a unit panics it will flee an extra D6 to remove itself from the terrifying flame siphon, eg. cavalryís 3D6 becomes 4D6.  Flame siphons can be used during a charge reaction, or during the first round of close combat only, after that the siphoneer will move to the back of the unit to protect his sensitive, flammable equipment,(probably to the relief of his companions)

     Flame Siphon Misfire table :icon_eek:: If a siphoneer rolls a one while attempting to spew liquid fire into his enemy, something has gone wrong, when this happens roll a d6 to determine the result.
  On a roll of one the flame siphon has gone off within the siphoneerís own unit roll artillery dice terror and panic dice as appropriate.  On a roll of 2-5 the flame siphoneer notes something very wrong with his temperamental machine and hastily moves to the safety of the rear rank to remedy the problem, he may fight as normal in the next turn. On a roll of 6 the flame siphonís return valve has cooked off and for the safely of the siphoneer he must purge the whole tank empty, roll three artillery dice instead of the usual one for the target and the flame siphon cannot shoot again in the game, the journeyman may however use any other weapons if so equipped.

Flying outriders:  It was during a demontration of the outlandish flying skills of the birdmen of catrazza that Hans Von Waldenhof was inspired.  He swiftly gathered the broken pieces of a shattered glider as well as the wounded pilot citing Inperial security reasons, then after many failed experiments and several modifications to the design we have this.  TA DAAA 1 unit per 2000 points. Outriders may purchase a flying upgrade for 15 points per model ( becomesUS 1) this takes into account the loss of the horse's points, the unit gains skirmish in place of fast cavalry, and the addition of falling breech blocks to their RHG's, in addition if led by a champion they may purchase grenadoes. Personal weapon options are still availiable. 


Hook Bill 10 points:  As normal halberd, except all rolls to wound of 6 ignore armour saves.  May only be used on foot.  Elector Count, Captain or unit Champion only.

Man-Catcher 10 points:  Two handed weapon. It may only be used on foot.  Confers killing blow, except opponent may attempt an armour save.  Elector Count, Captain or unit Champion only.

Ball and Chain 15 points:  Counts as a flail, except confers  +3S in first round of combat  Elector Count, Captain or unit Champion only.

Silver dipped bullets: available to troops as well as a characters pistol or handgun. +1 pt for each troop, +4 pts for Hero class, +8pts for lords.   counts as being loaded with Blessed silver bullets. These bullets are magical. Against all models with the undead, Vampiric, or daemonic rules (and Forest spirits) it also adds +1 strength to the shot fired and a successful wound caused by a character counts as D3 wounds rather than one, troops using these will still only cause one wound.

Experimental artillery rounds:
Chain shot: range 42 S6 D3 troops per rank for full range.  Hans Von Eggendorf had the brilliant idea of riveting two cannonballs to each other by a short stout chain after being inspired by the antics of a goblin fanatic, (through a spotting scope at a safe distance of course) the rest is military history.  The D3 variable represents the action of the twinned balls spinning through the unit at high velocity. +20 points to equip a cannon with these.

High Explosive Mortar Bombs:  Highly volatile these make even seasoned gunners nervous, but when needs must the daemon drives. Rules as mortar; under the hole S8 d3 wounds, S5 -4 AS D3 wounds to all others.  +25 points to equip a mortar with these


that'll do for today's modifications may 20th about 2:00 local

« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 08:20:02 PM by der Hurenwiebel »
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2009, 09:00:18 AM »
I like your idea smashthedean, its not too technical and its something we can fit into an army easily
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2009, 01:54:11 PM »
Why not make the Flame Siphon a throwable flame template though (similar to a salamander, warpfire thrower, flame cannon, etc), a breath weapon, or even a "Draw a line weapon" similar to a Burning Head?

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2009, 06:50:04 PM »
thats a possibility magicjuggler, but the flame thrower is supposed to be an area effect weapon, (spray and make em pray ;P ) I trust my logic of leaving it to the half trained journeymen to use is not lost on the rest of us.  The logic I have for making the damage calculation from a die roll as opposed to a template is that the siphoneer will tailor his spraying to the target, like a kid with a supersoaker or someone using a water fire extinguisher.  If needed, either of these could just let their water flow sit on a single target or spray down the whole neighborhood, a flame template doesn't do that.

What do you all think of the unlockable abilities in the schola bellator or imperial tactica sections.  I also added our own birdmen as outrider upgrades and am interested in hearing your reaction to the empire fantasy "sharps rifles" i've added in the form of the "dropping breech block" rifles.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 07:54:09 PM by der Hurenwiebel »
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline mwalsh867

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2009, 03:52:03 AM »
VORLAGENINGENIEUR (MASTER ENGINEER)

Stats: As current Master Engineer except BS 5.

Equipment: Hand weapon.

Options: Light armor +XXX or heavy armor +XXX.  Brace of pistols +XXX, grenade-launching blunderbuss +XXX, handgun +XXX, Hochland longrifle +XXX, repeater handgun +XXX, repeater pistol and pistol +XXX.  Warhorse +XXX and barding +XXX or mechanical steed +XXX.

An unmounted Master Engineer may be accompanied by a great cannon +XXX or mortar +XXX.  The artillery piece is crewed by three crew, and up to two additional crew may be added +5 each.  The artillery piece and crew are deployed with the Master Engineer when all other characters are deployed.  The Master Engineer must remain within 2Ē of the artillery piece.  The artillery piece benefits from the Master of Ballistics rule, below.  If the artillery piece is destroyed, the Master Engineer model is removed as well.

Special Rules: Extra Crewman, Master of Ballistics (both as current rulebook).

Keep current points costs for all upgrades/Captains points costs for pgrades not currently available to Master Engineer.  Artillery pieces at current points cost.

I like this version a lot.  Engineer can pack a little punch at a distance with a decent armor save to potentially fight off war machne hunters, AND alleviates the Special choice crunch.  Basically, you give up a Hero choice for a cannon or mortar. 

Nifty?

-Matt

Offline Eisenherz

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2009, 11:40:59 PM »
VORLAGENINGENIEUR (MASTER ENGINEER)

"Vorlage" is German for template, sample, model or, well "master" as in master-copy. The German edition of the army book has "Technicus" for engineer, so you are probably looking for a "Meistertechnicus", if you like a Teutonic touch in your nomenclature.

As I see it, there are two basic ways to go:

One would be something like a champion upgrade for a canon crew (same as before only W1, no hero slot, ballistic arms options only) at about 30pts(?)

Another would be a somewhat worthwhile hero: BS5, Ld8, some power-up on his artillery ability, same cost as before

Well, as we are at it - why not have them both? Engineer as crewman champion, master engineer as hero choice!
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2009, 08:52:33 PM »
Just exactly what I was getting at in my trio of choices a unit upgrade, hero and lord class characters. 

I would like to see as you can probably detect, the engineers as a unit buffing type, who unlocks otherwise unusable technologies or army abilities.  These would be muck like the VC special powers but not on the same sort of scale
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Eisenherz

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2009, 10:01:40 AM »
 :| not so sure about the lord level engineer, I don't envision them as that kind of army leading figure.

Maybe a "take more warmachines"-upgrade to the GotE with some engineery name to it, but not more.
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2009, 09:02:26 PM »
Certainly another possibility, although you could interpret the rules for him as being essentially a captain upgrade or a parallel GotE at 60 points before upgrades he can be a very cheap otption for an army leader and with a Stank as a mount choice basically comes with a spare rare choice (you'd still have to pay)  and with army upgrades and unlockable units would be a good choice.

"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Empireguard

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2009, 02:39:39 AM »
Reroll Ability-  If an Empire Engineer is on the table,  ALL warmachines get a reroll in case of a misfire.  His coaching and efficiency amongst the war machine crews prior to battle, and on the warpath have boosted their abilities on the field.  If an Engineer crews a War Machine,  his BS is utilized when necessary, and a second Reroll can be applied in case of a misfire.

To be honest I hate most 0-1 restrictions (unless itís a special character) and any Effects all Abilityís. Mainly because in a 500pts battle  who cares about 0-1, in 2000pts its slightly restrictive but in 10,000pts it sucks. Same with the Effects all in 10,000pts itís over powered in 2000pts it probably fine but in 500pts it sucks.

I think a better rules if you want to go this way would be all units with 3Ē (or some other length) get reroll fail to hits from shooting ( I just thought this might be interested as then you could use him in outriders, handgunner units or things like that) or in the case of artillery they may Reroll a misfire.

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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2009, 05:22:59 AM »
yeah I like an x/ y army points ratio for rarer characters but then I kind of would rather see it completely open except for special one of a kind chars, theme armys can be built then.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Gorthac

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2009, 03:59:10 PM »
Empireguard had a good point I had thought of earlier to myself. Extend the reroll ability to within like 6" of the engineer.

Additionally I completely agree on the BS 5.

As an additive bonus, you should be able to upgrade a unit of knights to ride mechanosteeds at +15 points each if you wield an engineer. Or if the knights would be uncomfortable with it, it could be an upgrade for pistoliers/outriders instead. 15 Points could be too few thou, the potential hitting power in 5d3 S4 impact hits + what knights hit normally is rather hot! So maybe the mechanosteeds should be 20 points each instead. I don't know, I just like to throw ideas out there!
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Pigeon bombs annihilate the enemy from afar while the Engineer rubs his beard and nods his head in a sagely fashion.

Phil

Offline bojones16

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2009, 11:18:02 AM »
I think the only reason why he is only BS4 is cause could you imagine a helblaster at BS5 but they could of got around this by saying the he gets +1 to hit with hochland pistols etc...
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Offline Blauer Nebel

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2009, 11:58:55 AM »
But the Engineer takes a valuable Hero place that could be used for a Warrior Priest, BSB, or Wizard. Sure, BS 5 Helblaster sounds big and bad, unless it explodes on the first go and kills your hero (and any gear he might be carrying) instantly. I think BS 5 should've been a given.

Offline jan_boruta

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2009, 07:15:31 PM »
Guys at Polish forums suggested moving the Engineer to Core (saying it would be a similar case to emoelf Assassin).

But, they also thought about making the state troops cost less than clanrats. :ph34r:
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